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8:00 PM
er, no.
 
Until you apply preconditions that cannot be assuredly met in the general case
 
like I said, assuming that you have the original interface, then the entire point is that the compiler compiles the new module to meet it.
 
@CatPlusPlus plz halp
I think "," has jumped off a bridge :/
 
Ell
I can't make anything of anything now :(
@Puppy what problem is your proposed solution for? :)
ABI mismatches?
 
@Ell The general idea is to reduce ABI mismatches between different compilers and different versions of the same library. It's easy to add new members, etc, without breaking the binary interface when you know what binary interface you need to meet.
in C++ it's a binary breaking change if you re-order the virtual member declarations in your header.
in Wide, it isn't.
 
Ell
8:04 PM
Okay
so you specify what interface to meet by supplying the Wide compiler with a metadata file you were talking about?
 
right.
 
Ell
Cool
 
the compiler knows what interface it has to meet so it's easy to automatically apply techniques like, say, PIMPL or whatever, that in C++ you have to do manually to maintain binary compatibility.
so even if you do things like add/remove data members from types your users use as plain values, you don't break the ABI.
 
@Puppy That's not a property of C++.
 
21 mins ago, by Luc Danton
I really like how shared libraries work today :/ I’m not necessarily super fond of the toolchains and workflows to produce them, but subsequent use is neat.
 
8:06 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, you're right. It is under Itanium. Under MSVC you have to do something like add new overloads of existing virtual functions.
but the same basic problem remains, which is that the compiler doesn't know what vtable layout it needs to produce.
 
Ell
I think puppy's idea is neat :P
 
so you can only guarantee interoperability if the source code is identical.
and even then, that only works between compilers with the same vtable layout implementation.
 
@LucDanton Maybe on Linux.
 
in Wide it doesn't matter how you choose to lay out your vtable, or your data members/base classes, or what name mangling scheme you choose.
 
A little bit more annoying on Windows.
 
8:07 PM
hell, you could choose to use a hash if you want to.
 
@Rapptz I cannot possibly comment.
Sorry, it’s a fun thing to say.
 
the metadata interface format doesn't care if the mangled name is deterministic or not.
you just give it a mangled name and you're done.
 
I figured someone who likes shared libraries doesn't really use Windows.
:v
 
so it's actually quite hard to break the ABI.
 
ABIs are overrated.
 
8:09 PM
and dynamic linking (on Windows) I can substantially improve by automatically applying that __dllexport/__dllimport stuff.
 
although the problem of not being able to automatically import symbols from an exe to a dll is still, well, problematic.
 
Ooops.
Accidentally left something on top of my keyboard, more precisely on the PrintScreen key.
 
lol
 
Now I have a hundred screenshots of the same thing.
 
Xeo
8:12 PM
Do you have dropbox set up to automatically save Windows screenshots?
 
@Rapptz Well, for the things we mentioned static libraries are irrelevant anyway.
 
I just came in!
 
Behold!
A week of work.
 
user2684182
@Rapptz mistab i'm assuming
 
What?
 
user2684182
8:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes cool
 
@Rapptz It's not shared libraries that are problem on Windows
 
Oh shit. Forgot farms.
 
user2684182
@Rapptz er. never mind
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I hope you're using Quickfort :v
 
besides
 
8:15 PM
I once spent several hours preparing a layout in QF
 
the compiler can still choose to offer a deterministic binary interface if it wants to.
 
And then I kinda forgot to play
 
I spent a week.
 
You're minmaxing or what
 
8:16 PM
Tsk
 
Dammit, I have farm output and potash too far from each other.
 
They're all gonna die horribly anyway
 
@CatPlusPlus I’d say no, given how all horizontal it is.
 
There's little improvement to be made by adding levels.
That is for all industries I'll ever have.
No one will haul stuff from one end to the other or anything.
 
Where does everyone sleep
 
8:18 PM
Top left is foodstuffs, right is metal. Middle is crafty stuff. Bottom center is glass.
@CatPlusPlus Elsewhere. Haven't designated that yet.
 
A spiral of 1x3 bedrooms
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes There’s more to it than that, to and fro from resting etc. Sorry, I’m not calling it bad or anything, I’m responding to the question.
 
wooo, unity beta got released
 
Ell
@Puppy I think it's a good idea. But now you need to choose a format to represent an ABI with right?
 
A challenger
 
8:20 PM
time to see what the 3D gui tools are all about
 
@CatPlusPlus I usually make them 1x4. Bed, cabinet, chest, and extra for luxury.
 
@Ell Right.
 
Luxury? What is this, a five-star hotel?
 
Helps avoid tantrums.
I guess potash can be hauled to the farms mid-season just fine.
Or maybe minecarted.
 
Ell
I don't really know how to play DF properly but I try to set up an environment I'd be happy to stay in
and provide large bedrooms with nice beds and things
I see it as Hotel Manager
 
8:22 PM
Only nobles require that
But noble rooms are recyclable
Just needs reset lever
 
lol
 
Now I need to plan out the magma and water supply.
Gotta bust that aquifer open.
 
You can also imagine that the dorf who pulls the lever yells "POWER TO THE PEOPLE" when pulling it
 
Nah, just wing it. What could go wrong.
 
I want a meeting hall with a waterfall at the entrance.
 
8:24 PM
How do you not get FPS problems
 
vOv
Not the first time I build a waterfall in the meeting hall.
 
I built a pump for the waterfall once and it killed half of my FPS
And then the mist and stuff started
 
Last time, though, I made the well part of the waterfall circuit and then made a mistake and long story short poisoned the well with a body.
 
:lol:
 
So this time, well and waterfall will be separate.
 
8:26 PM
> DFHack 0.40.08-r2
Oh hey
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lemme guess, a dorf decided that the waterfall is a great place to take a nap?
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, it works, already.
 
Will the gods of SO kill me if I ask a C++ question in the Lounge? :P
 
Xeo
Always
 
8:27 PM
:(
 
Xeo
but if you don't mind dying you can ask anyways
 
Y'know, I'm just going to ask anyway. :P
@Xeo Well, it might just be my gravatar that dies.
 
@Xeo Nah. The accident happened in the service compartment of the pumps. I was trying to tap into the circuit to channel water to an obsidian caster.
 
@StackedCrooked P sure it's not
 
8:30 PM
CBA to quote mine but I remember something to the effect of ‘aquifers are not that bad, as long as you have magma’. I suppose it a relative thing though…
 
Yeah, I have aquifer+volcano.
 
Okay, to my question: I have a nested class foo in bar that has a method I'd like to access. This is from class mytest. Now, I do bar mybar = new bar(); from mytest. How can I call the method from foo? Would it be mybar::foo->mymethod();?
 
@StackedCrooked It's a good example of Poe's Law.
 
This is YouTube
They are serious
 
8:31 PM
@Rapptz TIL about Poe's law
And indeed it's a good example.
 
@hichris123 mymethod() is a member function of which class
 
I'd say they're sarcastic.
 
@StackedCrooked Not vaccinating your children is child abuse and should be punishable.
 
@RyanHaining mymethod() is a member of foo (the nested/inner class).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes btw do you use TWBT?
 
8:33 PM
@PolymorphicPotato you are preaching to the choir here :)
 
struct Foo {
struct Bar {
void mymethod();
};
};

auto mybar = new Foo::Bar;
or auto mybar = new Foo;
 
Ell
> I don't want my kids to catch autism!
 
Xeo
ugh, don't just new up everything in sight
 
@StackedCrooked All of Zeeland would be in jail!
 
8:34 PM
idk what his use case is, he has a new in his question yo
 
@CatPlusPlus What is that?
 
DFHack plugin to separate UI text rendering from tile text rendering
 
TWitter BooTstrap
 
make_unique is the new new
 
So you can have different fonts for both
 
8:35 PM
@hichris123 are you saying you want to call Bar::mymethod(); via a Foo object?
 
@RyanHaining Yes.
 
@hichris123 you can't
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh. Sounds nice.
 
ok, thanks @Ryan.
 
Calling a method always requires an object.
 
Xeo
8:36 PM
@hichris123 Nested classes are not part of the outer classes in that sense. The nesting just provides scoping, and access to private members
 
ah, okay.
 
The Java way is stupid and makes no sense.
 
I think it does make sense.
Like all non-static members, it belongs to an object.
 
... I first started using Java, so that explains why I'm so confused.
 
There’s an iron-clad rule that to call a (non-static) member function of class foo, you need an object that is a foo. Which are objects of type foo, or of a type derived from foo.
 
8:38 PM
@hichris123 it's more about the relationship between the types than the relationship between objects
 
If the feature weren't there then static keyword in front of it should be mandatory IMO.
 
nah
 
Beh no
 
It's consistent.
 
nested classes are a feature of classes-as-scopes, not classes-as-objects.
 
8:39 PM
No
 
@PolymorphicPotato With what- enums?
typedefs?
 
It's pointless
 
With all other static members.
 
member template classes?
 
Java has no template classes.
 
8:39 PM
which is irrelevant to C++.
 
@PolymorphicPotato Classes are not objects, though.
 
fact is, C++ has plenty of other features which are automatically class-scope instead of instance-scope.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, foo.new T() and bar.new T() are of the same type in Java.
 
why do you keep referencing Java as if Java's behaviour is relevant to how C++ should behave?
 
8:40 PM
Well, time to sleep. Bye.
 
@PolymorphicPotato And... it doesn't become part of the "outer" object. It's the other way around. The "outer" object has no way to get to the "inner" ones. The "inner" ones all have the this.Outter thing.
 
@Puppy I never talked about C++.
 
@Puppy Because we're talking about Java.
 
user3010322
Wooo!
 
user3010322
8:41 PM
Making Get and Post calls!
 
user3010322
Http stuff! OData! Yeah!
 
hmm, really? I just got here and it seemed like you were complaining that C++'s behaviour did not match Java's.
 
@Puppy Why would anybody talk about Java as if its behavior was how anything should behave?
 
@Xeo there was also this bacteria in your stomach
 
- Are you discussing Java? please gtfo, thanks.
 
8:42 PM
that fed on stuff you eat
and at the same time kills any other bacteria so that there is no competition
 
4 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
The Java way is stupid and makes no sense.
 
it's helpful in that regard
 
@Puppy Congratulations, you just summarized nearly half the FQA in only one sentence.
 
@Mgetz Heh. I see no one likes the whole 'new VS version for bug fixes' thing.
 
because it keeps more dangerous bacteria away
 
8:42 PM
@Rapptz Surprising, isn't it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not you, the potato guy. My bad.
 
The comments are all so negative.
I didn't know people outside of this chat hated MSVC.
 
MSVC survives because nobody competes with it, not because it's good.
MSVC is the the Comcast/Verizon of development tools.
3
 
@Rapptz There are intelligent people out there as well.
You should get out more :P
 
@Puppy lol
 
8:44 PM
@Puppy Replace "it" with "MSVC" for starboard purposes!
 
Xeo
Awesome
 
I disagree
 
Xeo
So that's this week's bundle
 
Hmm, I should go get some food.
 
I manage just fine on Windows without MSVC.
I'm sure thousands of other people do too.
 
user3010322
8:45 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes People at Microsoft hate VC++ and struggle with it.
 
user3010322
Though they're less vocal about it on the public e-mail lists.
 
more and more people are moving to clang/mingw because MSVC is so bad
 
I moved from MSVC when VS2012 was lacklustre.
 
@Puppy Years ago (when MS was much more dominant) I maintained that Microsoft got to their dominant position not by being great, and not (much) by unfair competition either, but primarily just just shooting themselves in the feet a little less than most of their competitors. The only change I see is that a few of the competitors are shooting themselves in the feet a little less.
 
8:46 PM
but it's not really in competition, the user experience of even super basic debugging in QTC, for example, as super bad.
 
user3010322
Yeah....
 
user3010322
But a lot of that is due to thye programmers of said tools just not taking advantage oif things the underlying tools can already do.
 
in VS it's trivial to make a breakpoint, but I smacked QTC for like, an hour trying to get it to break correctly and it really didn't want to.
 
That's a new low of being bad Puppy.
 
Ell
@Puppy will you be able to use gcc compiled libs and msvc libs from wide by specifying their abis?
 
8:48 PM
somehow, VS manages to cope.
 
user3010322
Granted, there's some features that the underlying tools don't have
 
user3010322
Like skip in GDB automatically replying NO in fucking MAchine Interpreter mode
 
what
 
user3010322
so I can't tell it to skip a bunch of crap and have it just default to YES so it skips things like move.h and that kind of bullshit library code I don't even want to see.
 
What is this yes/no thing you mention?
 
8:49 PM
@Ell Not... really. In theory, you could do, but since they don't create the correct metadata by default, and they use completely different e.g. calling convention, you'd really have to build it in.
 
user3010322
It's in the transscript, lemme go back like 2 months...
 
The only yes/no prompt I recall from GDB is "The executable changed. Do you want to reload it?" or something.
 
the yes/no prompt for skip is
'File doesn't exist' or w/e
 
user3010322
Apr 8 at 17:05, by R. Martinho Fernandes
(gdb) skip functino
No function found named functino.
Ignore function pending future shared library load? (y or n)
(gdb) skip functino
No function found named functino.
Ignore function pending future shared library load? (y or n)
(gdb) fuck you
 
user3010322
^ That command
 
user3010322
8:50 PM
Defaults to N in Machine Interpreter mode
 
user3010322
so you can't do something like, say, front-load all the crap you want to skip in .gdbinit
 
What is the problem Wide tries to solve? (anyone besides Puppy may answer)
 
@Ell The other problem is stuff like exception ABIs. You can't mix-and-match them.
 
Ell
@Puppy But you could write or generate the metadata files yourself since gccs abi is documented (isn't it?)
 
user3010322
8:51 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's called skip function and skipfile, or at least the two commands are called that.
 
so whilst in theory, there's nothing in the Wide ecosystem that forbids it, the practicalities of mixing C++ ABIs is that you can't.
 
Ell
I don't really know how exceptions work on the ABI level so :3
 
you don't wanna know, but you can't mix and match.
 
user3010322
Jun 5 at 0:28, by ThePhD
I am reading the docs of skip [function/file] linespec
 
the other problem is what stdlib implementation would you use, what RTTI implementation, etc.
 
user3010322
8:54 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes ^ I talk about ti for like 2 hours intermittently, but yeah. skip, if it fails to find the function/file in the current GDB session, will ask you if you would like to skip it in the future. GDB automatically responds NO in machine interpreter mode or other automatic contexts.
 
user3010322
A bug was opened in QtCreator about it, and they said they couldn't do anything unless GDB implemented an option for like, giving the default answer to questions that GDB asks.
 
the other other problem is what happens when you convert types from one ABI to another.
in theory, you could mix ABIs and Wide is quite capable of simply interpreting whatever Clang spews out, but, well, it's simply not that practical in reality.
 
@FilipRoséen-refp The problem of C++ being a terrible clusterfuck
 
so Wide is an alternative to D?
 
Yes, in a world where anyone cares about D
 
8:58 PM
lol
 
I think Go has more users than D
 

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