« first day (1278 days earlier)      last day (3688 days later) » 

10:00 AM
@ScarletAmaranth It's not really specified at all.
 
that's kind of weird
 
nah, calling conventions and mangling are specified
 
I don't believe that the mangling is specified.
the calling conventions are more part of the C ABI than the C++ one anyway.
 
well yeah, maybe it's not
6
Q: Where is documentation on the Microsoft Visual Studio C++ Name Mangling Scheme?

grrusselI am interested in finding either official or reverse engineered documentation detailing the name mangling scheme used by the Visual Studio C++ Compiler to translate C++ names into symbols in generated code. I am aware that this may change between versions, and am most interested in the details ...

 
mmm; the calling conventions must be C++ specific as you can declare stuff "C" to disable mangling
 
10:05 AM
That does not "disable" mangling
 
alright; "disable" mangling
:)
 
it just changes the calling convention
 
what?
 
I have offended LRIO's pedantry sensors
 
extern "C" ... affects calling convention?
 
10:07 AM
only on some plats
 
the fuck man? "extern" only changes how public names in object files looks like
 
not x85/x64
 
ah well not for x86 maybe
 
Depends what calling convention you started with
 
MSVC doesn't implement the rules for this
GCC and Clang have to on some platforms
you can, technically, have a function pointer typedef which is extern "C", and they are distinct types, because the C and C++ calling conventions are not guaranteed to be the same.
 
10:08 AM
Admittedly I bundle name mangling in with calling convention when I should be talking about something else
 
but extern "C" does also have to handle the name mangling thing on all platforms.
 
But I say extern "C" "changes" name mangling rather than disabling it.. even if it changes it to an identity function of sorts
meh whatever
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Have you ever worked with CodeWarrior?
 
@Xeo Nope.
 
Xeo
Yeah. Try that and you'll come back crying for VS.
 
10:09 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit : - / I would like to officially apologize for offending your pedantry sensors
 
@DeadMG yeah and some people don't get this :( (stackoverflow.com/q/22117931/560648)
@ScarletAmaranth Your apology is officially accepted
 
Yippee! \o/ we've got our poll cards for the election to the behemoth bureaucracy in Brussels. We love EU elections - the polling station is next door to the club, which opens early.
 
@MartinJames But no one votes for those people!
 
you can also code in C
and use the glorious C ABI
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not if the club is open, no.
 
10:16 AM
Apr 10 at 11:23, by rightfold
Decided by people nobody voted for! I love the EU!
@rightfold it's your chance!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes can I ask you a private question?
 
In the Lounge?
 
not that kind of private question
 
What does that mean?
 
10:17 AM
his penis is 4.8 inches long.
 
nothing, people tend to say that when they will ask anyway
 
Goarrnnn - promise I won't peek.
 
anyway, the question was supposed to be "why do you write in C++?"
basing on your robotic omnipotence, there must be some reason good enough
 
I could answer that easily - nothing else is available on my ARM embedded platforms except C.
 
I used to write in C++ because I wanted to make games that will be fast and smooth for the user, and possibly also crossplatform.
Nowadays this is not nearly a reason enough, because a lot of other languages offer it.
@MartinJames almost
 
10:21 AM
@BartekBanachewicz That's it?
That was disappointing.
 
:(
It's kinda important for me.
 
@BartekBanachewicz like what languages?
 
@ScarletAmaranth Haskell. C#. Javascript.
Lua
 
@BartekBanachewicz No linux - I have a minimal tasking RTOS, but no hardware memory-manager.
 
@MartinJames hm, that shouldn't be a problem for terra actually
I mean, it should run freestanding alright, for all I know. 'cept the ARM register issues present now, but someone will fix that sooner or later
dunno.
 
@BartekBanachewicz how can you even begin to compare them to C++ when it comes to providing fluent experience to the user for (non trivially looking) games?
 
Interesting move. Let's disspell dogma by... citing authority or popular opinion. Yes yes. I'm new to programming ^
really thanks @sehe. My question is - For struct Name and Address do i need to add BOOST_CLASS_EXPORT_IMPLEMENT(Name) and BOOST_CLASS_EXPORT_IMPLEMENT(Address) in SimpleData.cpp file — user3382670 9 hours ago
 
@sehe -1 not enough auto
 
^ Sure that works.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Simple: he doesn't. He doesn't make non-trivially-looking games.
 
@ScarletAmaranth How? By stating that the language performance is hardly a bottleneck in professional realtime rendering applications.
 
@TonyTheLion "Haskell" is a person's name, so it's not too surprising.
 
@ScarletAmaranth The most intensive computations are done in the GPU assembly which is compiled from shader code. Well-written 3d application doesn't really do much processing on the CPU side, and the blobs of data can be efficiently handled regardless of the language.
 
you know
 
"Church of the Living Word" #lolamerica
 
10:31 AM
I gotta notice that the robot did not answer the question.
 
@DeadMG I think he might be busy. Oh wait he answered Tony.
 
user1804599
Hmm. Yum.
 
user1804599
Raw beef.
 
dude, that's impossible, it's only the middle of a work day.
 
10:33 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I agree that most stuff is computed on GPU but that doesn't mean that CPU is just sitting there idle; drinking tea - not to mention that pretty much every AAA engine that I'm aware of is written in C++ (sometimes with a scripting languages glued onto)
 
user1804599
 
Monad Rd, Billings, Mt, USA.
 
@ScarletAmaranth "every one is written in C++" - isn't that appeal to authority? If it's not sitting idle, what is it doing? Why can't it be done efficiently in the languages I've mentioned?
 
well, let's start with "Because they're slow as shit in comparison"?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not appealing to authority; I'm merely stating a relevant fact
 
10:35 AM
and then I'll move on to, "All the existing high-performance code is in C++"?
 
both statements are equally bullshit, puppy
 
and then I think I might finish with
 
more bullshit?
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's argumentum ad populum.
 
10:35 AM
"It's one thing to cope with the overhead of Javascript on a desktop, and quite another to do that on a console/phone/etc".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes okay, there. /cc @ScarletAmaranth
@DeadMG that I agree with. That would be driving off the main course a bit, though.
 
@DeadMG You brought JavaScript into a language war?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes how is pointing out the current state of affairs "argumentum ad populum"
 
@ScarletAmaranth Anyway, disregarding that, what about other questions I asked?
 
@ScarletAmaranth You're trying to show something about C++ because it is popular.
(That doesn't mean the observation should be discarded; only that it doesn't necessarily imply what you want it to imply)
 
10:37 AM
Yeah, I am not going to deny it, because it's obviously correct.
I just don't think that showing that is showing anything about inability of C# or JS or Haskell to render game graphics efficiently
 
@BartekBanachewicz well that's very simple; I can't have fucking VM interfering with my caches when I take 100ms stall on XBOX 360 powerPC on each cache miss
horrible overhead is horrible
 
@ScarletAmaranth you are of course aware of the fact that C# and JS are JITted, and Haskell is native, right?
 
@BartekBanachewicz no that's not true
 
JITting causes stalls and cache misses.
 
every cycle and byte you spend JITting your code is a cycle and byte you can't spend executing your code.
 
10:40 AM
now it is true and wrong @BartekBanachewicz
@DeadMG this and /cc @R.MartinhoFernandes that (to @BartekBanachewicz)
 
> true and wrong
 
well; first of all you said JS is native
 
I did not.
 
and then edited to... something that exactly proves my point
 
> said: :15875950 you are of course aware of the fact that C# and JS JIT, and Haskell is native, right?
was the original message
 
10:41 AM
@BartekBanachewicz oh, my bad, I can't read
 
Also, your point right now is that JIT compilers have some overhead over compilers that produce native assembly, right?
Oh I agree alright.
 
you see, there is "no overhead" of random crap if ALL the instructions generated are whatever the hell you wrote the code for
 
But the fact that overhead exists is not enough for me to completely discredit the ability of code that is JITted to render complicated realtime graphics.
Mostly because overhead on CPU of the JITted code has little to do with the GPU computations, again.
 
yes I agree with that; when it comes to computing geometry and whatnot, it's mostly just GPU
 
Once the pipeline is set up on GPU, the data exchange is minimal. Issuing a few hundred-byte command calls is something that pretty much any language is able to do.
 
10:44 AM
but you somehow seem to think that that is the only relevant factor
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well, it's funny then that when I actually play AAA releases, my CPU usage is pretty high...
 
@ScarletAmaranth It's the most relevant factor when it comes to rendering graphics using GPUs with programmable pipelines.
 
and I'm running a desktop CPU.
if you're programming BF3 on the 360 with a vastly weaker CPU
you might well find that you need to make cuts to make your CPU budget for the frame, even in C++.
 
@DeadMG Do you think that increased CPU usage stems only from the fact that the graphics are more advanced, or because the game is doing more computations in general?
 
So @R.MartinhoFernandes how it went where's the video
 
10:46 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Bit of both really.
 
If you're using a lot of CPU time to render graphics, you're doing something wrong, most of the time.
 
you expect more advanced AI, more accurate/more complex simulations and such things from a game in 2014 compared to 2004.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I did not know that
 
@DeadMG then again, we were talking about games with nice graphics, not necessarily AAA games
 
alright
I give up
 
10:48 AM
FTR
21 mins ago, by ScarletAmaranth
@BartekBanachewicz how can you even begin to compare them to C++ when it comes to providing fluent experience to the user for (non trivially looking) games?
 
@BartekBanachewicz The only indies with AAA-competitive graphics are the ones who licenced an AAA-engine.
I don't begrudge them that because super-duper graphics isn't what I paid for when I bought an indie game
 
My pwetty gwaphics
 
@BartekBanachewicz eh, most AAA games are cpu-bound these days because of GPU driver overhead (draw calls etc). Hence the push for Mantle, DX12 and the work to eliminate bind overhead in GL
 
but it's still true.
 
How can bind overhead be a thing.
 
10:50 AM
can you please show me an impressively looking game with back-end in C#, JS, or god forbid Haskell? (yes, yes, this is not "an argument", whatever)
 
@jalf yeah, and GPU driver might well be written in C or C++; its overhead is not the game code problem per se
 
Are drivers really that shitty?
 
@BartekBanachewicz It totally is.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes some validation has to be done, and you have to make a lot of bind calls to draw a complex scene
 
10:50 AM
In general "is software X really that shitty", the answer is "yes"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes API is shitty and they are trying to salvage what they can
 
the game code has to render a frame in 1/30th or 1/60th of a second.
 
also what @CatPlusPlus said :p
 
and if a GPU driver takes up half that time, then it reduces your budget for your code.
 
@jalf There's no validation done on binds. It's just setting a global.
 
10:51 AM
and the fact that you didn't write the GPU driver is irrelevant.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wrong, at least in some cases :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It also does a thread sync afair
 
1 min ago, by ScarletAmaranth
can you please show me an impressively looking game with back-end in C#, JS, or god forbid Haskell? (yes, yes, this is not "an argument", whatever)
 
(obviously the overhead they're trying to eliminate is not just bind calls)
 
@CatPlusPlus Ugh, they don't use thread locals?
 
10:52 AM
Dunno
 
@ScarletAmaranth Kerbal Space Program! :P
 
I can understand a lot of other things in the driver causing trouble, but certainly not binds.
@ScarletAmaranth Have you heard of Unity games?
 
@ScarletAmaranth Heh, pointing you to Citadel would be funny enough, but that was C++ compiled to JS, so the joke's on me, I guess. There are a lot of nice WebGL demos if you look around, but in fact, I might even bend the "back-end" requirement you stated and point you to Unity.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes unity is written in C++ as far as I know?
 
but the games are not.
now, how much does it change is up to you to decide.
 
10:54 AM
@ScarletAmaranth So is the CLR.
 
that's not really important if Unity does the heavy lifting.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, the overhead can be usually incurred later. You bind a new resource, which is basically free, and then validation has to occur later, when it is used for the first time. :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz so?
 
but it doesn't matter because Unity games are not competitive with AAA games on graphical fidelity.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Point being, we have technology that allows us to write nice-looking games in pretty much all languages.
 
10:54 AM
also this is worth watching
 
not that I really care, merely pointing out that it's an unfair comparison.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, agreed
 
@DeadMG right
 
What does engine have to do with game graphics
 
well, I'm gonna admit that I've not seen that one before
 
10:56 AM
@BartekBanachewicz FF VI is a nice looking game too
 
but also it's hard to tell the real fidelity from a single screenshot.
 
@DeadMG watch the whole (Unity 5) video. Hint: It has global illumination.
 
@DeadMG eh, it's easy. Just look for the lens flare :p
 
Crawl is the best game ever anyway so none of this matters
 
@BartekBanachewicz link?
 
10:57 AM
@BartekBanachewicz ambient occlusion or something like real path tracing / diffuse diffuse whatever? (nothing really "has global illumination", just some approximation)
 
@BartekBanachewicz You didn't link anything.
 
@ScarletAmaranth anyway, looking back at the discussion, do you still stand by the point that only C++ is an acceptable choice, again, if you want to create nice-looking games?
 
I... actually can't watch it on high enough resolution for a fair comparison.
because of my shitty swamp internets.
I can only watch on like, 240p.
 
well it might explain some things
 
10:59 AM
Clearly your internet is not written in C++
7
 
I have a code.
 
@BartekBanachewicz alright; let me say this then: I am willing to admit that you can make a nice looking game without C++; it will, however, not be state of the art pretty (actually, will be far away from it)
 

« first day (1278 days earlier)      last day (3688 days later) »