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12:00 PM
I think the tool would have to be psychic to pick out which one I want to extract, unless I'm basically gonna do all the work anyway.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG selecting something, vs select, cut, paste, name, use name in other place
 
FWIW said tool can also extract repeated subexpressions into a single variable, which is where this is the most useful.
 
@Xeo Think I'd definitely like to choose my own name anyway, and I'll definitely have to use name in other place anyway, unless you want to argue it can use the variable for me, which is a smidge extreme.
 
Yes, again the assumptio that it sucks.
 
It moves to a box where you type the variable name
 
12:02 PM
Why would it not let you choose a name other than deliberate suckage?
 
And the name updates automatically in the extracted point
 
if it doesn't choose a name for me, then what exactly am I saving over simply altering the code manually?
 
Xeo
Okay, lemme rephrase my last message
 
select the code, hit one shortcut, enter the name of the new variable...
 
12:03 PM
Effort
 
seems pretty much the same to me.
not to mention that the whole refactoring took like, one entire second, so even if you cut the whole time, that's still not a substantial saving.
 
user1804599
Puppy has this tendency of complaining about things he hasn't used before. Just give up.
 
You have to cut, paste and also reposition and type the variable name twice
 
Xeo
[Select, Name] vs [Select, Cut, Paste, Make variable, Use name in cut place]
 
Also what Robot said about repeated expressions
 
12:04 PM
What if I plainly don't care?
 
@DeadMG you select the expression
@DeadMG it does
9 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
IOW "I prefer my slower method to the faster method because I am used to the former"
 
Also what's more important
1 hour ago, by Cat Plus Plus
So @R.MartinhoFernandes how it went where's the video
 
well, the slower method is already very quick and frankly effortless for me.
and it doesn't really come up very often anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus no vid. his friend is almost as forgetful as robots
 
You can shoot down any automation that way
(hint it's dumb)
 
12:07 PM
well, it's a bit of a personal experience that admittedly you can't really argue against.
 
@DeadMG the subtlest win is that refactorings /don't/ clobber the clipboard.
 
but then, if you're arguing in favour of optimizing someone else's workflow, different people spend their time doing different things and no automation can speed things up for everybody.
I spend far more of my time considering how I'm going to refactor my core design to permit new features anyway... or wasting it playing games because my "work" machine is my game machine as well, which is super bad.
 
@DeadMG remember the commodity effect? Things (like e.g. microprocessor chips) get used everywhere iff and because they become cheap
 
Could you guys talk about something interesting, please?
 
tabs!
 
12:09 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit of course! /cc @Xeo
this looks very interesting
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit are you still under the impression that RJ roams free?
 
@sehe The stuff I would do if I could afford it is not stuff like "Extract variable". It's stuff like "Redesign lexer/parser interface" or "Look at parser generator" or "Look at using C++ virtual inheritance".
 
@DeadMG you're simply unaware of the power that you don't have :)
 
I can't name any places in my code where I would extract a variable or move a method if only it took half a second instead of a whole second.
 
this looks like a very nice debugger
 
12:11 PM
@CatPlusPlus I get the impression that he doesn't want to talk about it....
 
you can basically go to any place in history
and go from there
 
@DeadMG this means you simply never refactor
 
Hyperbole yay
 
@BartekBanachewicz succinct, yes
 
I prefer to focus my refactoring efforts on stuff like, "Delay code generation till after semantic analysis by expressing analyzer operations in a totally different way".
 
12:13 PM
@jalf whose hyperbole? "if only it took half a second instead of a whole second" surely sounds realistic
 
rather than refactoring efforts like, "Introduced a variable here".
 
For JS job
 
@sehe both of you then?
 
@DeadMG The one doesn't go without the other. Also, you can stop reducing refactoring tools to a ridiculously simple example as "extract variable"?
 
12:14 PM
@CatPlusPlus :F
 
@jalf yay!
 
@ScarletAmaranth It's looking less and less likely as the season goes on. I still wish for it.
 
@sehe Well, I could do, but those are the examples other people brought up, not ones I picked myself.
 
Automation is always a net benefit
No matter how trivial you think the thing is
 
@BartekBanachewicz aand I'm learning Elm
 
12:15 PM
I'm looking forward to using the Meta reset to become a meta.stackoverflow.com god
 
user1804599
> frameworks such as LESS or Sass
 
@DeadMG It both chooses a name for you and let's you choose a name.
 
user1804599
> Javascript
 
user1804599
kek
 
user1804599
The only good part of that page is "Amsterdam."
 
12:16 PM
@ScarletAmaranth you are? Cool. I never got around to trying it proper. If you have any idea for a nice game or something you could use a hand with creating, jam-style, I'd be interested. I could never force myself to sit to it by myself considering the tons of stuff I have to do, but I might have some time this weekend for a quick tryout.
 
@DeadMG Oh good. Change signature is brilliant, especially with overrides. Also, extract superclass/subclass are nice. Move to namespace. Move to other file. Make instance method static. Make static method instance method etc.
 
How does puppy argue against something he's never used before?
 
@BartekBanachewicz that debugging is really amazing; it's like the next step for debugging
 
I guess you could call it a "puppy-ism"
 
@rightfold why is LESS not good? Also, it appears they're aiming for a dev with the right "compass", doesn't look like they promise they're using "such as LESS or Sass" (that's impossible literally)
 
user1804599
12:18 PM
14 mins ago, by rightfold
Puppy has this tendency of complaining about things he hasn't used before. Just give up.
 
> How Elm makes it possible?
> Immutability
> Purity
> FRP
:)
 
@TonyTheLion Like most people who object to changes on the account of "doing just fine"
 
user1804599
> framework
 
user1804599
LESS is relatively good. Sass is nicer IMO (primarily because of imperative loops instead of recursion).
 
VCS? Nah, I don't need it, my system of folders called backup_2342394 is doing just fine
 
12:18 PM
@rightfold sensitive
 
@CatPlusPlus I suppose that's a reasonable explanation.
 
Refactoring? Nah, I can just cut and paste bits and pieces here and there
 
@CatPlusPlus that's a much too helpful dirname
 
VMs? Nah, I can install stuff here just fine
Deployment tool? Nah, I can just FTP this stuff over
 
heh, I can see where you're coming from
 
12:19 PM
@CatPlusPlus and it's true. I do this all the time in C++. I must admit, I'm much more fond of the navigation/analysis features that a R# provides than the refactorings. But boy they are sure a speedup
 
The thing about tool-assisted refactoring is not even saving time on the refactoring itself, but on the possibility of fallout
 
@sehe heretic! If you don't spend at least 40% of your time moving functions from one class to another, you're not doing it properly!
 
@sehe Yes navigation is big part of R#
 
user1804599
If you spend 40% of your time moving functions from one class to another, perhaps you should not put the functions in a class at all.
 
Yes, that's the most important thing here
 
12:22 PM
@rightfold Said that about an hour or two ago :P
 
Try navigating from C3544 to a meaningful part of your code.
 
user1804599
Changing a broken design into a broken design isn't going to help shit no matter what.
 
@CatPlusPlus I love it. R#/C++ has this also, to a large degree. I'm particularly loving the fact that the integration (obviously) uses all the same GUI elements and (THIS:) shortcut keys (as C#, i.e.)
 
too bad R#/C++ is so fucking slow
 
12:23 PM
wat
 
Can it handle C2893?
 
apparently a whole bunch of people want to know how you can starve to death when you've got lots of food in Banished.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's no longer slow for me
 
just got Famous Question gold badge for asking that on gaming.se
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's that one?
 
12:23 PM
@sehe maybe I borked something
 
I'll have PTSD on this thing.
 
@rightfold mend your sarcasm detector. It wasn't even hidden here. 99.999999% of quotes starting with "Heretic" can safely be assumed to be sarcasm
 
I can't seem to get hold of R#/C++.
 
It's in public beta now.
 
aren't they still doing those private build things? they wouldn't send them to me.
 
12:24 PM
@DeadMG They looked at your download speed
 
@sehe dunno which one you're referring to.
But if you look then up on MSDN you'll know as much as I do.
 
ah yeah...
100MB -> 15 minutes for me.
FML.
I forgot to download Agents of Shield today as well.
god bless Micromkv
fuck swamp internet :(
 
IP over will-o'-wisps.
 
IP-over-frogs.
 
posted on April 16, 2014

Why is gets still with us?

 
12:37 PM
Because idiots
 
@BartekBanachewicz there seems to be very little info available for the language as of current; I'm getting an error about missing an environment variable but I can't seem to find out how to fix it - google yields almost nothing
 
@ScarletAmaranth wut
 
well, they seem to be using ELM_HOME which wasn't set up properly in the installation process and I don't know what to set it to -> google knows nothing about it; (well, I have fixed it now but the language seems to be fairly... new? :))
 
nah, it's been there for a while
hmm
apparently the guy is at Prezi now
> The cost of writing JavaScript is just too high. Every new and innovative feature costs too many lines of JavaScript code, and every line of JavaScript code costs too much time to maintain. Nevermind making that code performant. That’s a job for a code generator, not an engineer. JavaScript is broken, but that doesn’t mean we have to put up with it. And we don’t intend to.
hehe
 
1
A: Template trouble with Visual Studio 2010

RohanThe compiler failed to specialize a function template. There can be many causes for this error. In general, the way to resolve a C2893 error is to review the function's signature and make sure you can instantiate every type.

I don't even.
 
12:46 PM
> Prezi hired me to make Elm ready for production sooner rather than later, and allow them to use FRP to more easily implement complex behavior.
> The goal is to provide a viable, open-source language that’s both an alternative and complement to JavaScript for front-end development.
man
that looks way cooler than I thought before
I totally have to look at Elm
i wanted to write "learn", but considering how similar it really is to Haskell...
> The Web cannot afford to wait for an alternative to JavaScript.
 
> clang has a -fms-compatibility flag that makes clang accept enough invalid C++ to be able to parse most Microsoft headers.
5
Impressive engineering.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They can self-host LLVM and Clang with the LLVM-VS toolset now.
it's only RTTI and exceptions which don't work.
else they support MS ABI and extensions nearly as well as GCC/Itanium.
at least, that's what the devs say.
 
yeah, I know.
 
@BartekBanachewicz well I have hello world working! :)
 
12:50 PM
woah wat.
I installed R# and now it's like, the syntax highlighting... ewwww.
 
@ScarletAmaranth cool. BTW It doesn't have typeclasses, amiright?
@DeadMG just reload Solarized :v
 
@BartekBanachewicz no idea, I have just got it working after figuring where it wants to set its silly environment variable :)
 
@ScarletAmaranth have you used cabal to install it?
 
> error MSB6006: "CL.exe" exited with code -1073741701.
 
@BartekBanachewicz nope; I have avoided Haskell platform entirely; they have a "windows 7"installer which installs an elm-server that can hook up port 8000 on my localhost and run stuff
 
12:53 PM
Doesn't sound too promising.
 
@ScarletAmaranth hm, I guess I could just get the compiler from hackage
 
@BartekBanachewicz what dafuq is that and where do I reload it?
 
I had a look in the R# settings but there isn't a setting for "Totally fuck up code highlighting: checkbox"
@BartekBanachewicz That is not the VS code highlighting.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Yay xmonad.
 
that is still not the default VS code highlighting.
 
of course it's not, default scheme is fugly and uses like 30% of the information available
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, he went full retard in some points, but the article is overall good enough
and morning
 
eh seriously I wonder what hurt the Elm creator so much in ::
 
@BartekBanachewicz At least it actually uses contrasting colours you can see apart, unlike the R# scheme, and the R# scheme seems to involve using the same colour for namespaces, templates, types, etc, whereas the VS highlighter can highlight them differently.
 
12:57 PM
if not for that, one could really copy-paste haskell signatures
@DeadMG R# scheme looks ok with solarized for me vOv
dunno change it who cares
 
I want to change it back, but can't.
 
@Dead Did you ever run into something like " "CL.exe" exited with code -1073741701."?
@DeadMG There's an option to disable the smarter syntax highlighting.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "oh, the -107374171, of course"
 
you call this "smarter"?
it's totally broken.
 
1:03 PM
BTW @ScarletAmaranth wiki section on Haskell-Elm correspondence looks helpful
@DeadMG lol pointers
 
@BartekBanachewicz ok what is wrong with them: they seem to have switched : for ::; :: is a list ctor, : is for types o_O
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz There is nothing wrong with pointers.
 
7 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
eh seriously I wonder what hurt the Elm creator so much in ::
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I clicked the button to turn it off, but it's still here! :(
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah but then they took :: and used it in place for haskell :; why?! :D
 
user1804599
1:05 PM
@ScarletAmaranth Scala and F# do that too.
 
Xeo
@ScarletAmaranth Didn't ML do that too?
 
@ScarletAmaranth also <$> is <~ and <*> is ~
 
@DeadMG Oh well, I guess it's a bug? Though it's weird that this feature would have a bug, since it's not C++ specific at all.
 
whaat is wrong with them! :)
 
user1804599
: is usual notation for data types of expressions.
 
1:05 PM
him
 
that's true
 
user1804599
Haskell is being odd.
 
:F too bad I already got used to Haskell style
 
user1804599
Also it doesn't matter shit really.
 
anyway this is a minor drawback at most
 
1:06 PM
sure it matters when you want to... inspire yourself by Haskell
 
user1804599
It also makes clear that your code is Elm code, not Haskell code.
 
and then you switch list constructor for type declaration ^^
 
@rightfold which is not particularly great actually
because a lot of code could be copy-pasted
 
user1804599
If they used the same syntax it would be difficult to tell them apart.
 
and why would you want to tell them apart?
 
1:07 PM
hmm
now I'm sitting here waiting with a big thing saying "Analysis will start shortly".
even VS's default syntax highlighting and Intellisense isn't this slow.
 
:cplusplus:
R# analysis does shitload more than IS ever did
 
@ScarletAmaranth (<$>) = (<~) compiles :)
 
that is not useful to me before it's even started.
 
@BartekBanachewicz hahahaha; that's almost as horrible as (!=) = (/=) ^^
 
user1804599
import Prelude hiding ((==))

(==) = (/=)
 
1:09 PM
argh, and I've still got the really shitty R# highlighting.
 
import Mouse

(<$>) = (<~)
(<*>) = (~)

main = asText <$> Mouse.position
woo
 
user1804599
I like `fmap` in Haskell. Fewer imports. :3
 
their tutorial simply does main = lift asText Mouse.position
 
ok
screw this, I'm uninstalling R#.
 
1:11 PM
well in general there's more similarities than differences
which is obviously a good thing
altough I am not sure how the language would work w/o typeclasses
 
similar to what C++ does now
 
speaking of which, how the fuck do you uninstall R#, it doesn't seem to count as a VS extension.
 
would turn "not in Eq class" into : <Novel by Oscar Wilde ™>
 
@DeadMG Good luck with that, mate
 
@sehe I've just discovered this.
 
1:13 PM
@ScarletAmaranth well
 
"this"
 
@sehe he discovered it
 
@DeadMG I meant good luck with this attitude/lack of patience/stamina/snap judgement etc.
 
@BartekBanachewicz do my eyes deceive me or they also borrowed stuff from F#
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz That's basically translating type-classes to dictionaries.
 
1:14 PM
well, it is a preview build, so it's not surprising that it doesn't work.
 
@ScarletAmaranth aha.
 
but, on that note, it doesn't work.
 
@Xeo kinda
Altough I think I'd rather stick to regular Haskell, really...
 
user1804599
@Xeo Which is what GHC does for you anyway! :D
 
funny enough, Elm syntax coloring highlights "class" and "where"
 
1:16 PM
@sehe It changed my syntax highlighting from the VS default to "Broken" without asking me, and the option to change it back doesn't work, so I don't have a great deal of choice if I want non-broken syntax highlighting.
 
@DeadMG The same way you uninstall anything?
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz They just use same highlighting as for Haskell I think.
 
Elm currently does not support:

operator sections such as (+1)
guarded definitions or guarded cases. Use the multi-way if for this.
where clauses
any sort of do or proc notation
 
user1804599
What is proc notation?
 
Arrows
 
user1804599
1:17 PM
Ah.
 
I don't understand how they don't support operator sections
don't they just expand to lambdas?
 
@DeadMG you're being totally reasonable, no doubt
 
(+1) to \x -> x + 1 ?
 
I guess Elm has its own lexer
 
user1804599
@ScarletAmaranth Do they have prefix or postfix operators?
 
1:18 PM
so it might well just not have that feature
 
user1804599
Because if so, sections are suck.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes by now I did. I wouldn't know why/how R# should "support" that :)
 
@ScarletAmaranth If you implement that
They won't work magically
 
@rightfold no idea actually, I've just seen a few lines of the language
@CatPlusPlus o_O they don't?
 
user1804599
Magic is not scientifically proven.
 
1:19 PM
@rightfold it's not o_O?
 
user1804599
So Haskell would be the last language to use magic.
 
Xeo
let cons w ws =
    wf.bind w  <| \x ->
    wf.bind ws <| \xs -> wf.return (x::xs)
 
user1804599
Only FiM++ supports magic.
 
Xeo
that formatting looks a bit weird
 
yeah, ($) = (<|) plz :P
 
user1804599
1:20 PM
Put the return on its own line pl0x.
 
so Elm meh.
 
user1804599
Helm.
 
yeah
focus should be put on Haste or Fay
 
Xeo
Also, screw monads without functor or applicative!
 
user1804599
instance Monad Screw where
-- instance Applicative Screw where
-- instance Functor Screw where
 
1:23 PM
@BartekBanachewicz that's the F# part; they roll <| and |>
 
user1804599
|> is nice.
 
user1804599
Reads in the correct order. :v
 
BTW @R.MartinhoFernandes you are of course aware of that, right?
 
user1804599
> Say what you want about Java developers….

No really, go for it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz omg wtf o_O
 
1:28 PM
@ScarletAmaranth don't look at it, it's impossible! :D
like 4D shapes
 
Xeo
Hm, I think I just noticed why <*> uses *
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's pretty mad
 
@ScarletAmaranth Haskell is the Greater Good, but the acolytes have to join the cult willingly :D
 
user1804599
@Xeo enlighten me.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I've never said I don't like Haskell; what I did say was that making triple-A games in it is silly :)
 
1:29 PM
@rightfold looks like an ass
 
@sehe Because kjewhsfodsjfwem
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz weird ass.
 
 * macros called through BOOST_PP_REPEAT to generate lists
 * J : I don't know what it is
 * I : the current counter number
 * D : the 3rd argument of BOOST_PP_REPEAT
 
@ScarletAmaranth I am fine with around 0.37A-games :)
 
Great comment.
 
1:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes lmao
 
Xeo
@rightfold It distributes the functor over the function arrow, like multiplication distributes over addition
f (a -> b) => (f a -> f b)
x * (a + b) => (x * a + x * b)
But maybe that's just coincedence.
 
17 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Sorry guys, my friend that was supposed to record my talk didn't show up.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :((((((((((((((((((((((
 
Went pretty ok, though.
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh, their silly elm-server doesn't even need to be running; you can simply compile elm to HTML / JS o_O
 
1:45 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes knobhead
Did he have an excuse?
 
@ScarletAmaranth well that's the whole point
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Haven't talked to him yet.
Maybe tomorrow if I show up at the Go meeting.
 

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