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8:03 AM
Damn you javascript and your millisecond timestamp!!!
Spent almost an hour debugging. :(
 
8:17 AM
 
This does look made up.
Maybe I should say this more often.
 
Hm?
 
That picture, it’s not real.
 
it is
Have you never played SPM?
The dialogue is full of stuff like this.
My personal favourite:
I've been playing Fantasy Life lately.
 
There’s a relevant Archer clip but I can’t find it on the interwebs.
 
8:31 AM
I wish to one day make my own RPG
It's been a silly dream of mine since I was a kid.
 
At some point it became a game engine.
 
@Rapptz start thinking shit out now. IMO the mechanics are fairly easy, it's all the content that is hard to do. And content is what makes an RPG good.
 
It's not those things I have a problem with.
Sorta anyway.
I have a hard time with art and programming (lol).
 
Neat. I've always wanted to get into high powered rocketry and beyond, i.e. make >100,000' flights with various instruments/electronics
 
hmm
when alloc_traits::propagate_on_move_assignment is true must you still move the allocator even if they compare equal?
I guess yes
 
user1646075
sad bastard here:
 
user1646075
 
lol
 
user1646075
@BartekBanachewicz you was right. > 200HP/ton. I did my maths wrong, for a change
 
user1646075
good thing I'm not a programmer.
 
8:45 AM
 
@bjd2385 Woah. That felt scary looking at it like it'll fire up and pierce through me.
@bjd2385 And wait. lol! It's an color-inverted pencil!
 
@MarkGarcia lol yeah, looks mean, right? I can't wait till I can get outta here, get a job and move southwest where you can really punch a hole in the sky if you want
 
@bjd2385 Aren't there FAA rules against those?
Flying rockets through the air without clearance or permission? (unless you have one)
 
@MarkGarcia yeah gotta get a flight waver, prove you're not launching a missile etc. and there's a bunch of guidelines you have to follow, materials etc.
@MarkGarcia For low flights <3000' or so it doesn't matter. Here in the states you can launch 'em from your backyard if you want. I live in the suburbs and never had a problem with it. But for >3000' or something like that you need a waver and a wide open space, hence their launching it from the desert, but this is the extreme, so they took a bunch of precautions
 
Certification itself is going to cost a lot. Well I hope you do fly your own. One of my dreams too.
 
8:51 AM
@MarkGarcia Oh yeah, level I, II and III certs are a lot of money. More the bigger you go. Wouldn't be surprised if he spend >$10,000 on this flight
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 ouch.
 
is there a way simple way to construct an object inside a try block then use it outside of that block?
that doesn't involve placement new or something like that
 
no
unless you do two phase init
 
nah
 
@aclarke sweet launch, right?
 
8:55 AM
I'm implementing shrink_to_fit, which only may throw if T's move constructor threw, otherwise does nothing
 
user1646075
just going through the specs part at the start. "1 cosmic ray detector" ???
 
@bjd2385 Brings a whole new level of "BURN!!!"
 
@MarkGarcia sure does lol
@aclarke Yep, might as well do some science, gather all the data you can
You can build them cheap:
 
@Mixerman123 IMHO, I would use a single context object passed everywhere where necessary.
 
@aclarke In the early years, sounding rockets like the WAC Corporal that von Braun and his team re-engineered to launch in the desert (White Sands I believe, unless it was some other place) were used to gather data on the upper-atmosphere, the Sun, X-ray astronomy began at that time (because x-rays from outside the atmosphere don't make it that far through it)
List goes on and on...
 
9:01 AM
@orlp You're orlp now btw.
 
@Rapptz that's correct
@Rapptz it's my new username, it's my initials
nightcracker was kinda cool when I was 11...
 
insecurities
 
user1646075
@orlp Now you're fully grown, Nitecracka. Thug Lyfe.
 
user1646075
melting plastic at Mach 3. nice
 
@aclarke lol
 
9:07 AM
@orlp Then why have you not used your full name? :)
 
@VáclavZeman I kinda like the short name
 
yeah, like me!
having my name as my username helps not forgetting it
I once forgot how old I was
better safe than sorry
 
@VáclavZeman orlp.me is also my server
 
@orlp 404 Not Found!
 
(not currently hosting a website)
(other than some private pages)
 
9:09 AM
@orlp ooh private
 
@MarkGarcia nothing interesting
cdeque: 400 lines and counting...
 
after I've implemented I need to do some serious refactoring for DRY
someone should host an URL shortener here: ai
 
@MarkGarcia can't see it...
 
@bjd2385 The URL. dat URL
 
9:13 AM
@MarkGarcia ?
 
@MarkGarcia ...okay
 
> nsfwd.domains.ph
...
 
omg i need to sleeeeep
ha first class today is dodgeball. Not even gonna get outta bed till then
 
Resorting to virtual inheritance makes me feel dirty.
 
9:17 AM
dogeball
 
@BartekBanachewicz where you from? here in states it's dodgeball
 
lol
 
@bjd2385 that was a joke
 
@BartekBanachewicz kk
 
what's your opinion on setting data members to 0 after destructing to protect against double-destruct?
 
9:24 AM
Don't double-destruct.
 
well no shit
as a library designer/implementor
 
Many classes don't have such special members.
 
anything that contains a pointer that needs to be deleted does
 
@orlp raw pointers shouldn't have ownership
if you have to delete manually you're doing it wrong
3
 
@BartekBanachewicz no, I have to std::allocator_traits<T>::deallocate(allocator, address) manually
 
9:26 AM
My principle is to put the burden on the client if he's goofing around.
 
@rightføld lol, people using immutable objects then wondering why their performance has gone down the drain #java
 
@thecoshman their fault for using java
 
@BartekBanachewicz true dat
 
user1804599
Java's GC is optimised for lots of small objects. Works totally fine.
 
strictly speaking, Java doesn't have a GC, that's implementation defined.
 
user1804599
9:36 AM
Also developer performance > runtime performance. So use immutable objects.
 
In theory, a JVM could just never collect stuff and keep allocating more and more meorry.
 
user1804599
Yes, in theory you can also run out of memory because your code may be run on a machine with only one byte of RAM.
 
@rightføld oh sure, but you can make any point by taking it to the stupid level.
 
user1804599
A JVM that never deallocates memory is as worthless as such a machine, and not used in practice just like such a machine.
 
@thecoshman your "in theory" example was as sensible as his
 
9:42 AM
@BartekBanachewicz well, for a short lived program it could work :P
 
user1804599
And as for copying, you don't have to copy everything to update immutable objects.
 
I've heard, though not looked into much, that the JVM doesn't cope well with you creating new objects rapidly and then discarding them. So some sort of pool that allows you to reuse the instances can really help performance with Java.
 
user1804599
82
A: Best practice for creating millions of small temporary objects

Marko TopolnikThe JVM GC is aggressively optimized towards huge amounts of short-lived objects. They are both incredibly cheap to allocate and to collect as a whole—especially if you don't mix them with long-term or mid-term object allocation. The amount of heap regulates how often these minor GC runs are made...

 
Which requires a form of re-initialise-able immutable object.
 
user1804599
I've heard the opposite!
 
9:44 AM
> introducing redundant information helps in system analysis
 
@rightføld vOv just get @Mysticial to test it out for us :P
 
my uni, ladies and gents
 
I wonder how big a 'small object' is. Are we talking a few bytes, like a 4D vector say?
 
millions means you're talking in megabytes already
 
user1804599
woo a few megabytes
 
9:49 AM
yeah, but 1MB/s is not too bad (no idea what sort of speeds ram actually is these days, enough is all I care about)
@rightføld needs more sarcasm.
 
user1804599
You cannot have a million Java objects and use only 1MB.
 
user1804599
Objects are always larger than 1B. :v
 
@aclarke you'll be paying regardless
> Since version 6, the server mode of JVM employs an escape analysis technique. Using it you can avoid GC all together. sounds ok
 
noexcept(noexcept(alloc_traits::propagate_on_container_swap::value && std::is_nothrow_swappable(Allocator)::value))
god
 
yeah, noexcept is quite painful in generic code
 
10:04 AM
I wish they made noexcept actually useful
as in make it an compile-time enforced contract
 
although that looks like it is wrong: noexcept(alloc_traits::propagate_on_container_swap::value && std::is_nothrow_swappable(Allocator)::value) should be?
@orlp yawn. Go for it. We'll speak after the sun died out
 
@sehe you're right
@sehe Is it that hard?
@sehe I think the compiler can figure it out pretty easily
@sehe just like const
 
lol
 
@orlp I dunno. Do you consider the halting problem hard?
 
user1804599
@sehe dat halting problem
 
10:09 AM
@sehe What are you talking about? It's not the halting problem
 
Try it.
 
@sehe It's a simple contract - if you mark your function noexcept you can only call other functions that are noexcept. Built-in operations are noexcept.
I fail to see how this is the halting problem.
 
Ah. Java's checked exceptions are around the corner. So. Do we get no-except calling conventions? And std::function<void() noexcept>?
 
the noexcept would have to be part of the function signature, yes, but you don't have to change calling convention
 
Good luck calling a C library function. You can be right, though.
 
Xeo
10:15 AM
So, I just got spam from "zombie_harassment_sample@e-technik.uni-rostock.de". wat.
 
(you could as an optimization though, if you're doing exception related things in your calls)
@sehe everything in extern "C" is noexpr by default
problem solved
@Xeo that's just the sample
 
Okay, so it's possible. I was thinking about implicit noexcept checking though. Yes, we can decorate everything
 
you could also go the opposite route
except
where not being allowed to throw exceptions/call functions that do is the default
@sehe of course calling functions in an try {} catch(...) block is allowed
 
Ell
The compiler can't figure out const
The compiler can't figure out noexcept
 
so apparently
my previous company was even more shitty than I thought
 
10:19 AM
@Ell yes it can
 
Ell
They are both guarantees made by the programmer
 
I'm not saying figure out
I mean enforce
 
could you imagine your last salary being in negative? :P
 
Ell
It does enforce const?
 
@orlp You were, though as you were direct replying to "The compiler can't figure out const"
 
10:20 AM
Yes?
 
@sehe hence my clarification
 
Ell
If you call a non const member function on a const ref it won't compile
 
@BartekBanachewicz Repaying courses?
 
@sehe my laptop.
apparently we misunderstood each other a bit.
 
@orlp Hint: that's not clarifying. That's brazenly negating what you said before
 
10:21 AM
I'm meeting my former boss later today to sort that out
 
@Ell Exactly?
 
@BartekBanachewicz .. oops. Don't bring the baseball bat
 
@Ell You said "the compiler can't figure out const". It can figure out const. It throws compile-time errors because of it.
 
Ell
@Rapptz sorry, my "it does enforce const?" Was meant to be directed at him saying "you do know the compiler enforces const, right?"
 
Ell
10:23 AM
@Rapptz I mean the compiler can't infer whether a function should be const or not
 
well no
it can't
 
Ell
Right
 
I don't think he's advocating for that though.
 
that's irrelevant though
I'm talking about contracts
 
Ell
But I think @orlp is saying it can
 
10:23 AM
@Rapptz Indeed. But Ell was saying it :)
 
@sehe point being, if I knew I'd have to repay them as much I'd negotiate wages differently
 
Ell
Or should be able to
As it should be able to with no except
Which it also can't
 
I've no idea how to go around that
 
I understood him as asking if rather than calling std::terminate it does a compilation error.
 
@Ell did you even look at my example?
 
10:24 AM
@Ell Nope. For a moment I thought so, but he made it very clear he wishes us to decorate every function call with it
 
but it's really pretty sucky.
I'll have really limit my spendings this month
 
Ell
Oh. My bad!
 
@BartekBanachewicz We call it "leergeld" (learners money). And by that I mean: you learn as go through life
 
Ell
Sorry
@BartekBanachewicz you have to buy a new laptop? Or pay for a company laptop?
 
@sehe but as for decorating every function with it, this is only needed in libraries that want to provide exception safety (the main one being of course the standard library)
 
10:26 AM
@Ell I'm buying my pc from them, but I thought they'd cover the agreed amount
apparently it would be the case, but over the 2 years
 
if you don't need/want exception safety you can totally ignore it in you application code
 
@sehe yeah. I should've made that clearer :/
but then again
the other person in the company understood it the same as I did
 
in it's current state noexcept is basically throw() reincarnate
 
so it was indeed terribly stated in the emails. Too bad I'm going to pay for that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz and you can't pay for the laptop over 2 years?
 
10:30 AM
@orlp maybe not two years, but hopefully a few months
actually, "anything after my first paycheck at my new job" would be OK :P
 
@orlp not really
You can query it now
since it's an operator
and there are traits about noexcept
 
Ell
@bartek I don't think its unreasonable to ask to wait until your first paycheck
 
anyway I'm going for driving lessons today and that's something to look out for
 
@Rapptz that's all fancy and shit, but barely useful for guaranteeing exception safety
 
@Ell especially considering they're taking my pay for this month anyway, eh? (which is about 2/3 of what I owe them ultimately)
 
10:32 AM
uh yeah it is
std::vector uses std::move_if_noexcept to provide strong exception safety in its move constructor
 
Ell
Yeah
 
@bamboon Read thalmic forums, there's a lot of stuff about that there.
 
@Rapptz During reallocation.
 
Yeah.
 
@Rapptz I fail to see how vector uses it
@Rapptz on what does it use this function?
 
user1804599
10:36 AM
On its elements.
 
cppnext is dead
 
there's no more C++
you can all go home
 
user1804599
I am already home.
 
I wish the guy didn't leave his blog to die
I blame Apple.
 
10:38 AM
@Rapptz > One example is std::vector, which contains an allocator whose copy constructor can throw exceptions
that's not true
allocators may not throw exceptions on copy
or on move
only on default construct
(and allocate ofc)
 
I do not see this requirement anywhere.
Got a source?
 
sec
cppreference or standard?
 
cppreference disagrees with you
 
> Does not throw exceptions.
all over the place in the copy/move constructors
and in the standard as well
Shall not exit via an exception.
post: a1 == a
 
yeah I saw it via n3376
in any case
that passage is not relevant
 
10:48 AM
also I'm a bit confused on what type potentially could have a noexcept copy constructor but not be able to provide such move constructor
 
old C++03 classes
well without noexcept
 
so
this is just for that?
people blindly adding noexcept to their C++03 classes, but only on the copy constructors?
and even then, won't the move automatically turn into a copy constructor anyway?
 
no I didn't read your noexcept tidbit
fixed cppreference for you
 
sorry, I just don't really grasp the use of `std::move_if_noexcept`=/ For example for `std::vector` I could see it being useful __if__:

1. you're explicitly providing a custom allocator instance along to the move constructor
2. this custom allocator instance is not equal to the other one
3. the move constructor of the elements is not noexcept, yet is explicitly defined
4. but magically the copy constructor is noexcept
I think that amounts to "never"
 
10:57 AM
Hah! This Lombok thing looks nice.
 
god
the dutch accent.....
 
orange juice or water
 

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