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user1646075
2:00 AM
@nightcracker heh yes, mighty impressive.
 
user1646075
oh - a specific road. I thought you were referring to the general practice of commanding the sea to fuck off from your farmland.
 
@aclarke oh
@aclarke we do that too
@aclarke en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flevoland all that land was once sea
@aclarke but that "road" was a byproduct, the real purpose there was to cut off the sea and make it a lake (it's not a bridge, it's actually a seperator)
 
user1646075
"After a flood in 1916, it was decided that the Zuiderzee, an inland sea within the Netherlands, would be enclosed and reclaimed" Sure, why not?
 
user1646075
imagine the outcry from the Greens if that was decided now.
 
@aclarke it actually created biodiversity
@aclarke because it's fresh water now
 
2:12 AM
are most of you from Europe?
 
I don't know that, I do know the the netherlands is overrepresented in this chat
 
Neat, I've never been outside of the US. I can't wait though
 
@aclarke guess how we make drinking water in the Netherlands?
@bjd2385 I used to think pretty great about the US, but in the last couple of years I've heard a lot of negative things about the US =/ though I might be influenced by the fact that I read reddit a lot
 
@nightcracker All news is depressing, especially here
@nightcracker It is great if you have a lot of money. Otherwise you'd better not mind being in debt
 
user1646075
@nightcracker ummmmmmm - desalination?
 
2:16 AM
@bjd2385 I mostly was surprised by the fact that many Americans consider the word "socialist" a negative connotation
@bjd2385 (in the same breath they complain about medical bills, loans, though time finding jobs, etc)
@aclarke we pump the water into the dunes
 
user1646075
Yes, a self-proclaimed Christian nation that hates the concept of Charity or Helping your Fellow Man*.
 
user1646075
@nightcracker interesting. All the organics filter out the salt?
 
@nightcracker Hmm yes actually, I myself admittedly have made that association. We're just mostly brought up to think that way about other systems of government
 
user1646075
Of course. Can't make a billion if the workforce cares about equity or fair pay for fair work.
 
@aclarke I'm not certain how the salt is dealt with, but almost all things are filtered by the sand
 
2:19 AM
@nightcracker Omg don't get me started. The medical bills, loans and jobs are but three in a vast realm of...gosh I don't even know how to describe it. But it will never be solved, that's for sure. No one will ever be happy
 
@bjd2385 would you be surprised if I told you that most Dutch homes do not even have a credit card?
with the exception of mortgages everyone here spends what they have, rather than what they can pay the interest of
 
@nightcracker I might, but my famly has never had one either. I know of many people that do, however
@nightcracker That is one of the biggest problems with "merica", we pay for nothing up front. In essence, we hardly "own" anything
 
well all these things are possible here because we have a safety net in the government
 
You can't do much in the US without a credit card.
Banks expect you to have a credit score.
Owning a house, car, etc all expect it too.
 
Should I learn another language besides English? I've considered picking up Russian. I wish I lived in Europe, it must be "easier" to do that because there are a lot of languages in one place. Here it's all English
 
2:22 AM
The US isn't all English.
Go South and you'll see a lot of Spanish.
 
@Rapptz Very true, but some manage
 
Go to California and you'll see some Chinese.
 
@Rapptz Oh no there's a lot of that here as well, but almost everyone knows English where I've been or we've managed to communicate in some way. It's never been that big of a hassle
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 Mandarin. China will be the new world leader.
 
user1646075
@Rapptz s/all//
 
2:23 AM
@aclarke Yes...unfortunately
 
@aclarke Or s/ English//
 
@bjd2385 in high school (or well the dutch equivalent, think 12-16/17/18 years old) we learn mandatory dutch, german and french, then with optional chinese, spanish, arabic or other foreign languages. In the highest level of high school (we have 3 seperate levels here) latin or greek is mandatory as well
 
@nightcracker Can I come live there? "merica" is way behind on that. Kids here can hardly speak good English let alone multiple languages lol
 
user1646075
@nightcracker what about the english?
 
@aclarke totally forgot about english, is mandatory too
@bjd2385 you'd have to look up expat/immigration rules
everyone here speaks english, although with the infamously terrible dutch accent
 
2:26 AM
If it's one thing I've really started to accept it's that the US is hardly the greatest nation in the world. Like a lot of people are "jealous" of us etc. and I hardly see the reason they would feel that way. Then again, maybe they're not jealous, maybe they feel the same way I feel about it...arrogant...misleaded
 
user1646075
@nightcracker Figured - most people here speak english better than I, except for the yanks.
 
Not many countries think we're the best in the world.
I think the only country who even has >51% approval of us is South Korea.
 
user1646075
@nightcracker A Dutch tried to teach me how to pronounce the leading H. I nearly broke a tooth.
 
@bjd2385 I think the feeling nations are jealous of the US is a feeling mostly found in the US. Exceptions are maybe third world countries, but they'd be jealous of any western country.
 
user1646075
or is it leading G.
 
2:27 AM
@aclarke goed?
@aclarke scheveningen?
@aclarke we have a soft G, ("spitting sound"), but it's not just leading
 
@Rapptz Yeah...I have a friend that' from South Korea. Speaks highly of the US but much more highly of their own country. The US is bound for a serious decline
 
user1646075
when either a H or G is up front, it's really harsh. The lesson was a woman's name and they found it amusing. Bastards.
 
@nightcracker Third worlders like us don't care anymore. Only those people who have quickly gone to being rich have those aspirations.
 
I need to move to Europe
@MarkGarcia I would hardly say the US "quickly" became rich. But in light of how long it's taken other countries...well...perhaps
 
I honestly don't understand the entire conservatism movement
I really haven't seen a single good idea come from that
 
2:29 AM
@nightcracker You a liberal? And are you referring to the Tea Party?
 
@bjd2385 Sorry, clarified. You've had a lucky history.
 
South Korea: 30b GDP -> 1t GDP in 47 years.
 
@bjd2385 I'm refering to "right wing" in general
@bjd2385 please remember that all but the most extreme left wing politicians in the US would be considered (far-)right here.
 
@nightcracker Yeah I feel the Tea Party and the right wing is a bit messed up, too lost in the politics. But then again, that's politics in general, isn't it? The whole government is so corrupt
 
@bjd2385 that's an issue mostly partaining to the US
 
2:30 AM
@nightcracker Yes I agree
 
@bjd2385 your biggest problem is the system itself, it's so damn flawed =/ I don't know why anyone would ever think a two-party system even remotely resembles a democracy
lobbying
 
@nightcracker Because conservatism without Christianity has no point at all. I believe conservatism especially in the US isn't necessarily theistic.
 
The two party system is deeply rooted from day 1 of the US constitution.
 
@nightcracker There's many parties, but there's a lot of flaws that keep it from working the way it should or was intended
 
The moment the US constitution happened and got approved, there were two parties already.
Those against and those for it.
It was bound to happen.
It just so happened that these two parties evolved over time along with changes of the name.
 
2:32 AM
@Rapptz They developed over time, became more set in stone I thought...of course, there's always multiple sides to any establishment etc.
@Rapptz exactly
 
user1646075
@Rapptz Strange to consider that the Democrats were the party that wanted to keep segregation back at the time
 
Current democracy is very bad because it's very hard to compromise.
 
@aclarke Yeah that's incredible...
 
@aclarke The democrats and republicans switched spots mid history.
 
user1646075
@MarkGarcia Us vs. Them
 
2:33 AM
in the netherlands we use a vastly different system
 
There are more than two parties in the US anyway.
 
Ha there is no compromise, the government just locks up and shuts down
 
@aclarke Yeah. The "* the people" is very much lost.
 
No one votes for 3rd parties due to a consequence of advertising and ignorance of the people.
 
@Rapptz And because the big parties assimilate their ideas sometimes anyway
 
2:33 AM
The two main parties tend to steal the good ideas from the 3rd parties anyway since they portray national issues that are important.
 
the system in the netherlands is quite complex to explain but it works rather well
we vote every 2 years, once every 4 years for our national parliament, once every 4 years for our local government (think states on a micro scale) intertwined
 
happens here in the US too
well, election day is every year
but every 2 years they cycle
 
our parliament generally consists of 2 rooms
room 2 is what you vote for
 
@nightcracker I'm not against other forms of government. I just know what I've read in books and seen in movies and documentaries. I haven't done a terrible amount of research. I jsut feel like the US's system of government is not the best, could be better
 
it has 150 seats for elected politicians
they create law proposals
 
2:35 AM
@nightcracker Us too. Every 4 for presidential and all, and every 2 without the president.
 
@Rapptz Mostly get reelected though
 
user1646075
our state level is the poor cousin. Federal squeezing them out from above, and local gov just doing the business of putting up street signs, taking care of property development etc.
 
@MarkGarcia 6 years here in the US for senators
 
if a majority agrees for the law it goes to room 1
room 1 also has to agree, if not they send it back to room 2
 
Most systems are borrowed and adapted from the US system.
 
2:36 AM
room 2 can only make laws, not legalize them
room 1 can only legalize laws, not make them
 
@nightcracker Very similar to the US actually...
 
our president has no legal power of any significance
same with our queen/king
 
user1646075
@nightcracker That's close to our system too, but there can be senate initiated laws. Of course it then has to visit the reps.
 
@nightcracker Wow...you guys have a queen, king and a president? Shoot...
 
@Rapptz Yeah. Our system is heavily based on yours.
 
2:37 AM
Most of them are.
 
user1646075
@Rapptz errm, I would have thought the first was the westminster system from England
 
There must be a better way to govern a people...I mean, people have been thinking about this thousands of years, and this is the best they've come up with??
 
The Americans basically laid the foundation here, along with the dummy/puppet leaders.
 
user1646075
although they don't let the people vote for the "house of lords" ?
 
the major difference is that we have a lot of parties
 
2:38 AM
fun
 
How about Germany, anyone from there? I've always thought highly of that country. Here in the States (at least where I'm from) it's got a good reputation -- "the power of German engineering" and all of that stuff lol
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 so far, it's better than previous alternatives. Democracy doesn't mean the people are always right, but it does mean that the people (may) be able to reverse bad decisions in a timely manner.
 
user1646075
unless it get's usurped by special interest.
 
@aclarke That is post-US's system.
 
@nightcracker At least in the US it's somewhat "simplified", not so many voices coming from all over the place. Ideas get piped into two different big groups and then they battle it out
 
2:40 AM
@bjd2385 this is devastating for minorities
 
@aclarke Yeah..."timely" is a problem in this country
 
@bjd2385 neither party will speak up for them
 
@nightcracker Same thing here for sectoral parties. Funny thing is, some of them deliberately starts their names with "A" to be the first in the ballots. And it basically worked for them.
 
@aclarke lol nice one
 
user1646075
2:41 AM
@Rapptz reeeely? OK, because the english parliament stole power from the throne way back. Of course that wasn't democratic voting by the people. What about the french revolution? My history is weak...
 
@nightcracker It may be...but I suppose we have established that there are two types of people (or, now three actually) -- the far left, the far right, and that big group in the middle because they think both sides are crazy lol
 
@aclarke If I remember correctly anyway.
A quick search says so too.
 
user1646075
anyway, the intention and plans after US independence were very far reaching. Unfortunately is was still abusable.
 
1800s vs 1770s
 
user1646075
ok.
 
user1646075
2:43 AM
@bjd2385 You mean there's three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't.
 
@aclarke I feel the distrust of the government in the US has alienated people from the government thinking they can just ignore it and it will not step out of line.
 
user1646075
@nightcracker hmmm i get more of a sense of powerlessness and resignation. Also here.
 
@aclarke and an incredibly misguided trust in capitalism for the greater good
 
user1646075
indeed.
 
Who is this Jonathan Blow person
And why is he an idiot
 
2:44 AM
oh
another major injustice I've read about the US
plea bargains
 
user1646075
"If we don't give the rich people all our money, they won't be able to give us jobs"
 
@nightcracker Yes. "capitalism", "greater good". How ironic.
 
@MarkGarcia I like capitalism, and I could see it working, but it seems to be missing something...
 
@aclarke job creators are just FUD
@bjd2385 Capitalism is survival of the fittest, just like in nature.
@bjd2385 Now think of the richest 1% as humans in nature, and the rest as cattle.
 
@aclarke Bull. The rich have more than enough money. I might argue that a number of the poor is too lazy as well. Problems on both sides
 
2:47 AM
> a number of the poor is too lazy
this in incredibly unfair
 
@nightcracker Unfair?? Ha. I've spent my years dealing with them
 
people generally don't choose to be born poor, or choose to have events leading to spending (which is an incredibly bad thing in the US, mostly medical costs) to be poor
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 I was being cynical - about how so many ordinary folk just blindly accept whatever is spoon-fed to them about the needs of big business.
 
@bjd2385 Basically everyone for his own. Yes you created jobs buy ultimately for your own. You create the economy of scale but in most scenarios only 3-4 have the share of the market.
 
there's the FUD in america ("the american dream") that poorness is lazyness
and yes, that IS the american dream, because it's the exact converse of "you'll be successful if you work hard"
 
user1646075
2:51 AM
@nightcracker and self-imposed, and all you have to do if you want to escape poverty is go out there and magically get a highly paid job sweeping floors at the Denny's restaurant 40miles away
 
@nightcracker People don't have a choice in many situations, that is true. But there are always going to poor and rich. Not everyone can be rich, and neither can everyone be on the same level. It just doesn't work that way. I'm surprised in that people just don't see it as I see it
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 nobody is claiming that.
 
@bjd2385 I don't believe in communism in equality for everyone
 
user1646075
it's just a matter of fair pay for fair work
 
@bjd2385 I however strongly believe in equality of chances
 
user1646075
2:52 AM
and not treating the bottom line as the only factor to worship
 
someone born in a poor family should have the same chances as someone born rich
 
@nightcracker Opportunity.
 
user1646075
@nightcracker and occasional assistance - which is heresy to many.
 
@MarkGarcia Forgive me, english is not my first language :)
 
user1646075
@nightcracker oh NOW you play the foreigner card :-)
 
2:53 AM
@aclarke Assistance is part of equal opportunity.
 
user1646075
@nightcracker yes, but it seems many in the US disagree.
 
user1646075
and here
 
In fact, I've never found anyone that sees it as I see it. Perhaps you guys should spend some time with the poor, like quit your job, make minimum wage, have the government take 10% of your measly paycheck that you yourself could not live on, let alone support a family, and then have the "poor" come in and buy hundreds and hundreds with food stamps and welfare on your back with your tax dollars
 
@nightcracker Hm? English not my first too. :)
 
If I get a rare cancer and require $3 million worth of treatment here in the netherlands, that does not destroy my life (assuming I survive)
in fact, I won't ever see a medical bill
 
user1646075
2:55 AM
@bjd2385 " I've never found anyone that sees it as I see it" - that might be a sign
 
@nightcracker I do not. I think people should make the most of what they are given. That is life, it's the way it's always been and likely always will be. There isn't a system of government that can support that way
 
if I am reasonably smart and want to get a Masters degree here, it won't cost me a cent
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 also, we are greatful it's less likely in our parts of the planet than in some.
 
@bjd2385 you're being lied to with that information, because there is, and it happens in socialist countries like the Netherlands
For some reason people only look at the 55% tax and extrapolate that their life will be harder from that.
Perhaps your life will be harder in that if you would've had the same success in America you would've had three villa's, instead of two.
 
user1646075
@nightcracker not fighting your way through a ghetto on the way to work is probably worth at least 10% tax
 
2:57 AM
@nightcracker How can you support a family? Does the government redistribute wealth more than the US does? Holy geez. If that's the case, I do not understand
 
@bjd2385 We have very high minimum wage (relative to the US). If you lose your job you'll get free money from the government until you find your next job.
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 i'd guess proper health care, proper aged care, proper infrastructure, ....... free education to a high level
 
We have no medical costs
 
@nightcracker Ha my family owns one tiny house, one car and we're hundreds of thousands in debt. We try to live within our means but the system doesn't allow that
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 exactly!
 
2:58 AM
@aclarke But I hardly believe socialism is the answer...
 
user1646075
EU 1, US 0
 
@aclarke And not communism...
 
@bjd2385 You said it. "what they are given". What would that be? If we don't have equal opportunities then how can we validly measure how people do with the opportunity given to them?
 
@bjd2385 Would you trade that for no debt, one car, a well-size house, job security and free health insurance for the "cost" of losing 55% of your profits if you turned out to become a millionaire?
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 depends on degrees
 
2:59 AM
@nightcracker No, I would not, because I did not earn what I had been given
 
user1646075
@bjd2385 ideally, that just means caring for the people around you.
 
@bjd2385 There will always be rich, and there will always be "poor". But by taxing heavily and redistributing there will be no hardship.
 
@nightcracker I got paid to go to school.
And that's true for a good chunk of my post-grad friends
 
@nightcracker I hardly believe that's the answer
 
@Rapptz Not everyone is lucky enough to score scholarships.
 
2:59 AM
lol scholarships
 

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