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8:02 PM
anyway I've rediscovered Moog today
 
@BartekBanachewicz Hmmm...I wonder if my brother still has his copy. Mine was stolen years ago (along with almost all my vinyl). She did a nice job on it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz the synths?
 
@thecoshman The Synth
@JerryCoffin oh how cool is that. And how cruel :(
 
@BartekBanachewicz not quite UB, but definitely unspecified value though.
 
@BartekBanachewicz May also want to listen the some by the Moog Master, Keith Emerson.
 
8:04 PM
@rubenvb accessing undefined variable is ub
 
@rubenvb The term is 'indeterminate' btw. I mention it because it's a hilarious clusterfuck of terminology.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Moog are a company... though that may be an unrelated company to the synth...
 
@TonyTheLion Ok, I admit. He is good.
 
@LucDanton Too many terms.
 
I have no idea why @thecoshman didn't find him funny.
 
8:06 PM
@BartekBanachewicz [citation-needed]
 
Tooomaaaaaallaaaaaaak
why is he never around when one needs him.
 
@rubenvb 4.1/1
 
oh thanks :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz people need him?
 
@AndyProwl You mean or if the object is uninitialized, a program that necessitates this conversion has undefined behavior?
 
8:07 PM
@rubenvb yep
 
hmm
that convoluted even in standardese
 
it is, yes
 
Hilarious!
 
Where is the conversion anyways?
I don't see where rvalues come into this.
 
@rubenvb that's tricky because it is not a type conversion, but a category conversion
for instance, built-in operators like the assignment operator expect rvalues as their operand
so if you provide an rvalue, and lvalue-to-rvalue conversion is necessary
 
8:10 PM
but surely int uninitialized; cout << uninitialized; invokes no such conversion?
 
o_0 apparently my gpu only supports 1.4... something is not set up right
 
@rubenvb hmm, I would say it does
because operator << is a function
 
Xeo
@rubenvb It does, conceptually.
 
and it takes an int by value
 
ugh
 
8:11 PM
so it needs to initialize that int from uninitialized
 
right. rvalue != rvalue-ref
 
exactly
 
The arithmetic inserters take by-val btw. Oh hey I was slow.
 
got it. C++ sucks.
I keep forgetting C++ sucks.
 
I hear that more and more often lately
 
8:13 PM
Arguably uninitialized values are almost, if not exactly, the billion-dollar mistake.
(It arose differently I suppose.)
 
anyways, I'm outta here. Cheerio!
 
@AndyProwl Whenever you're dealing with computers, it's usually a fairly safe assumption that if you dig deep enough, you will find that it sucks
 
However, what sucks the most is that what I told wrote before is a bit of a lie
 
If you think something doesn't suck, it's because you don't know enough about it
 
Since the value category expected by built-in operators is mostly ill-specified
 
8:14 PM
there may be exceptions, but it's a pretty good rule of thumb. :)
 
@jalf that confirms I'm a newbie
I need to start hating C++
2
 
I didn't say that
Realizing something sucks != hating it
 
Xeo
I love C++
 
@jalf I did ;)
 
Xeo
But I know its drawbacks / cornercases
 
8:15 PM
@AndyProwl Even if it didn't use pass by value, at some point it would need to get the value stored in the rvalue (so to speak) which involves lvalue to rvalue conversion.
 
@JerryCoffin right
 
Xeo
Well, most of them, anyways.
 
the only thing is that one can only say by intuition what value categories are expected by language constructs
 
damn propriety drivers! I want latest so bad... bud hate having to update them
 
8
Q: What is the value category of the operands of C++ operators when unspecified?

Andy ProwlPREMISE: The C++11 Standard classifies expressions into three disjoint value categories: lvalues, xvalues, and prvalues (§ 3.10/1). An explanation of what value categories are is available for instance here. I am struggling to figure out what are the requirements of the different operators on t...

 
8:16 PM
@LucDanton Overall, probably more expensive than allowing null pointers/references, anyway.
 
Well the million- to billion- upgrade was quite costly already. I can't afford that one.
 
ahahahah
C++ sucks
 
yeah, my hardware should be gl3.3 ready... must be a software thingy ¬_¬ joy
 
I'm revisiting range slices and strided iteration is as problematic as ever: how do I properly mark the end of a strided range and/or increment the strided iterators?
 
strided iteration?
move by N at a time?
 
8:28 PM
@TonyTheLion Yeah, something like "visit every fifth object in the collection" (I'd assume).
 
ah I see
what's so problematic about it?
 
I've waited too long before eating and now I'm too weak to open a jar.
 
THANKS GUYS. YOU ARE REALLY HELPFUL. KEEP ANSWERING QUESTIONS. — Mikael S. 1 min ago
^^ Guy's completely lost it. :)
 
@TonyTheLion The obvious problem is that != really means something like <=. I.e., if you take every fifth element, and the collection size isn't a multiple of 5, then every iterator >= end() has to be treated as having reached the end.
 
@JerryCoffin ye
 
8:32 PM
seems to me like it should be relatively simply implemented on top of a Filter-style algorithm
 
@LucDanton Drop it on the floor and break the jar (but be careful about eating shards of glass).
 
Xeo
@LucDanton I'm always too weak to open a jar the normal way. Damn things need you to be a Terminator to open them.
 
@Xeo Agree.
 
Xeo
Oh yeah, puppy, thoughts about adding yield to Wide?
 
@LucDanton Hot water, butter knife etc
 
8:35 PM
It's okay guys. I won't starve tonight.
 
Xeo
Yeah, you can always eat your piles of template errors.
 
@Xeo Ideally, I will have sufficient metaprogramming facilities to implement it as a library.
I'm not too keen on implementing such a library-design-specific language feature.
 
@JerryCoffin oh I see
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Wait - stateful coroutines, as a library?
 
why not?
 
Xeo
8:37 PM
Also, how does meta-programming play into this?
 
well, transforming a function into a stateful coroutine is a metaprogramming facility.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Eh?
I don't see how, tbh. Or atleast, not from inside the function itself.
 
nah, you'd have to be like, my_yield_metafunction(function_that_uses_yield);
 
Xeo
mhm
I guess you could take a look at Boo for meta-programming ideas. Or rather, which facilities you might want to provide.
 
user142019
8:43 PM
I like Template Haskell.
 
I'm pretty sure that's convergent evolution, from what the robot described
 
Ell
@rightfold You have mentioned :P
 
@DeadMG convergent evolution is where animals (in the case languages) independently evolve similar systems, for example mammal eyes and squid eyes use near identical systems.
 
The robot having described boo, not the term 'convergent evolution'.
 
indeed
 
8:47 PM
@LucDanton ah
well, what I said still stands... it just sounds like the ramblings of a mad man :P
 
how could we tell between that and what you usually say?
 
Hmm, I found something incredibly ugly in a MSDN sample.
And I want to post it here.
But it's a kinda large snippet.
Hmmm.
 
pastebin?
or, hell, even use your own textual sharing service
 
I'm gonna coliru that shit.
Even if it's not C++.
 
@DeadMG just throw an orange at it
 
8:49 PM
Because that's how I roll.
 
OMG, I cried
 
le eww
 
It disgusts me
 
Reminds me some guy was trying to convert me to C# on monday. Glad he paid for the beer.
 
8:52 PM
lol
 
@EtiennedeMartel If you think that's ugly then you don't know ugly.
 
@StackedCrooked Everything with it is wrong.
 
That whole thing should have been an auto-constructed container, and a LINQ contains query.
 
man
 
That is not well-written C# by any stretch of the imagination.
 
8:53 PM
I think I've gone overboard with the whole, "Actually get shit done" thing.
my Wide codebase is frankly embarassing
 
Like the fact that it calls ToLower every time (because StringComparer.InvariantCultureIgnoreCase is too mainstream). Or the if return true else return false.
 
The method itself should have been a lambda function, too, instead of a fully-qualified method.
 
@DeadMG most large codebases are embarrassing
 
Wide ain't that large a codebase
I don't actually know how large it is, but it's not that large.
 
but it's non-trivial
 
8:54 PM
C++ is superior: there's no standard is_lower function.
 
well it's not 100 loc
 
@StackedCrooked I've seen worse -- but I've also seen a whole lot better.
 
@Morwenn lol
 
tolower
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel it's not that bad, it's easy to read
 
8:55 PM
@TonyTheLion That's only for one char.
 
@Ell no, it's not that bad, its fucking terrible
 
also
 
¬_¬ I think I just need to buy myself a better GPU
 
le huh, I spent only 150LoC to implement lambdas.
 
Ell
8:55 PM
@thecoshman what do you have atm?
 
@DeadMG I'd love to read that 150LoC...
 
@Ell GT210, from what I can gather, whilst the hardware should support gl3.3, the drivers do not support it supports 3.3, thus it falls back to... 1.4 :(
 
@thecoshman After that, I need to get you to talk to my wife about my doing the same (and a new CPU and motherboard too, while I'm at it).
 
Ell
@thecoshman are you on linux? have you got the latest proprietary drivers?
 
8:57 PM
 
@Ell on linux, just updated to the latest, was on the 10, but it also limited me to 1.4 (might just need to restart though)
 
@JerryCoffin yeah, could do with the full she-bang really :P need more ram, ddr2 too expensive (last I checked) to buy more
 
@StackedCrooked At least yours only converts the string to lower case once.
 
@StackedCrooked this is what I've been using since no init lists in VS.
 
8:59 PM
@DeadMG Wide has lambdas before Java?!
 
@Rapptz I've had lambdas for a while now.
 
@JerryCoffin Looking at the code now I mostly cringe at the .empty check.
 
@DeadMG I just wanted to sneak in that joke.
 
lol
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Welcome to a new episode of "Get drunk with Cat". This week... [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-helpdesk]
 
8:59 PM
@Rapptz at least Java can do basic maths :P
 

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