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12:00 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes tldr.unicodeiscomplicated.sad
 
@MartinJames that's not an human hand
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes EXCELLENT
curses, our NA French is wrong. And has been for 30 years.
and I can't fix it
 
@MooingDuck NA French?
 
@Borgleader er, fr-CA
 
12:06 AM
ah
 
luckily the only feature that uses the date in that way is a feature that nobody uses. This is the first time any customer reported the bug.
Well, technically it was right until 2003 or so, so only ten years.
 
I always write my dates in dd/mm/yyyy order
 
I write all of my dates with a four letter year and a three+ letter month
 
@Borgleader In Belgium this is also common.
 
well I'll write 29 mai, 2013 because allows for confusion ../../.. but thats still dd/mm/yyyy order
 
Ell
12:10 AM
I use dd/mm/yyyy
 
allows for confusion?
 
because some ppl do mm/dd/yyyy
is 10/11/2013 10th of november or october 11th?
 
@Borgleader you wrote the month with letters, which disallows confusion, thus leading to my confusion
 
i said i use letters because the ../../... thing is confusing
 
oh, the confusion!
 
12:16 AM
yy/mm/dd is even better
 
@Jeffrey how so?
 
more confusion
 
Ell
the best is y/m/y/d/y/d/y/m
 
I think Postgres uses that by default for timestamps... or yyyy/mm/dd IIRC
 
@Jeffrey I actually like that format because with a four digit year it's unambiguous which is which, since nobody uses yyyy/dd/mm
 
12:19 AM
@Ell I use that one
It's pretty cool
 
yeah, with 4 digit year it makes sense. 2 digit year is a big nono
 
Ell
y[3]/m[1]/y[0]/d[0]/y[1]/d[1]/y[0]/y[2]
 
@Ell Today is 2/0/0/3/1/0/3/5... go figure
 
Ell
12:34 AM
User Experience is a nice site to browse
 
@Ell Browse, but don't take it too seriously...
 
Ell
They are very good at putting pretty pictures in their questions and answers
 
@EtiennedeMartel i lol'ed
 
@Ell At least in my experience (semi-pun noted but not really intended) they're much better at asking questions than answering them. Maybe I'm just too conservative, but it seems to me that a lot of the answers are really just grasping at straws to come up with an idea that's radically different when a good (often better) answer is pretty obvious.
 
Ell
I find a lot of the answers very interesting so maybe you are right
 
12:55 AM
@ScottW I have tried plain pasta before...bleh...needs something on it to taste any good.
 
Ell
1:05 AM
Yeah it does
 
@Code-Guru Depends on how hungry you are. There was a point when I was in college where I'd have though a big plate of plain pasta was wonderful. Not any more though!
 
What, you need two?
 
@LucDanton I haven't been that hungry in a long time. Given how heavy I am, I probably should consider that though...
 
If you don't have sauce you can just add some oil, cheese and salt
 
Ell
yeah pasta and cheese is yum
salt is also yum
I love cheese
 
1:20 AM
what size rabits?
 
1:36 AM
Vote down accepted answer, vote up better answers: stackoverflow.com/questions/16806573/…
 
1:53 AM
@undefinedbehaviour why?
 
For the benefit of the soul, you might find the comments enlightening.
 
I'm not downvoting or upvoting anything
There's no way in hell that isn't a duplicate.
 
Yes. It's amazing how much nonsense can be found in answers for duplicate questions.
 
would it be illegal to make a youtube video downloader?
or just illegal to use it
?
 
1:59 AM
Which part of that task requires reverse engineering?
 
@undefinedbehaviour none
 
reverse engineering isn't illegal anyway
it's a bit of a grey area.
 
How are you going to understand their protocol?
 
@undefinedbehaviour If I told you that you may steal my idea
the point is downloading is illegal
technically
what about making an app to do it though
 
"You agree not to access Content through any technology or means other than the video playback pages of the Service itself, the Embeddable Player, or other explicitly authorized means YouTube may designate."
"You shall not copy, reproduce, make available online or electronically transmit, publish, adapt, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, or otherwise exploit any Content for any other purposes without the prior written consent of YouTube or the respective licensors of the Content."
The terms seem to indicate that you need written consent...
 
2:06 AM
hmmm
 
I guess that indicates that it's illegal to use your video downloader.
 
I read that
yeah
but not to make one huh?
because you can legally download with their permission
SO
my program is not an illegal tool, because it can be legal to download videos from them
 
"You agree not to alter or modify any part of the Service." <--- That's the catch for making one.
 
I'm not
I'm attaching to it
hmm
GREY
 
@Rapptz How grey it is (if at all) depends on your location. In the EU, for example, reverse engineering to produce interoperable programs is clearly allowed (see article 6 of the EU directive on the legal protection of computer programs).
 
2:10 AM
"You agree not to circumvent, disable or otherwise interfere with security-related features of the Service or features that prevent or restrict use or copying of any Content or enforce limitations on use of the Service or the Content therein."
 
hmmm
@undefinedbehaviour darn you!
I didn't see that
:D
 
@undefinedbehaviour It could mean you were in breach of contract to do so. That's not really the same as illegal (at least as most people use the term).
 
@JerryCoffin hmm nice idea yeah. I mean doesn't a contact require you to be 18 or over in the US?
yeah, otherwise its not legally binding
so I need to hurry and get this done before my birthday
:D
 
"You agree that the laws of California, excluding California’s choice of law rules, will apply to these Terms of Service. In addition, for any dispute arising out of or related to the Service, the parties consent to personal jurisdiction in, and exclusive venue of, the courts in Santa Clara County, California. "
 
Then again, your program could have the ability to download videos from them but is not its "intended purpose".
 
2:14 AM
Violating a contract doesn't automatically imply violation of state or federal laws. For example, jailbreaking remains a breach of contract with Apple, yet legal in most jurisdictions.
 
That first statement seems voidable.
 
I'd also note, however, that depending on your locale, a "contract" that you haven't had a chance to negotiate (for one example) may not be valid either.
 
Supposing a violator lives in California, Youtube can't deny them their local laws...
@JerryCoffin It's fairly well accepted amongst the courts that if you use the product, you've read and accepted the terms.
@JerryCoffin Otherwise, any laws regarding patenting are moot on the same logic.
In fact, I never signed a contract saying murder is illegal...
 
I should add, however, that a quick Google (!) for "youtube downloader" gives over 100,000 hits.
 
There are plenty of illegal things on the internet.
 
2:18 AM
@undefinedbehaviour Not true at all. Courts have been quite adamant that you must take a positive action affirming your agreement before you can be held to have agreed. Yes, pressing a button a web form can qualify, but unless they can show your having taken some affirmative action to indicate agreement, their case is drastically weakened immediately.
@undefinedbehaviour There's not much to say here except that you clearly haven't a clue of what you're talking about.
 
@JerryCoffin Do you mean by clicking "I agree" when signing up?
 
@undefinedbehaviour Irrelevant -- murder falls under criminal law. Whole different ball of wax.
 
I dont have to click "Agree"
when I watch a movie
so I'm not really agreeing to anything
 
@JerryCoffin Are you perchance one of those preachers of software freedom?
Is youtube's software public domain?
 
@undefinedbehaviour A quick check indicates I can watch (at least some) videos on YouTube without an account or taking any action to agree to anything.
 
2:22 AM
Yes, and you can also write a video downloader... and youtube can send lawyers up your arse, because they have cash.
Are you a lawyer?
Have you ever even been to court?
 
Even if I've agreed to something, when they're dealing with a situation over the Internet, proving much of anything is next to impossible. For example, how do they prove who was actually using the computer at any given time?
 
It's not all that pleasant...
 
@undefinedbehaviour God no.
 
You don't want to.
How do they prove who wrote the software that violated their license?
 
@undefinedbehaviour I do a fair amount of work as an expert witness in Intellectual Property cases. Most of my work is patent related, but at various times I've also been involved in copyright, trade secret and contract cases (where "fair amount of work" translates to "this is how I make my living").
 
2:26 AM
@undefinedbehaviour when you buy it and it goes to my account
that could be a problem...
guess I need a cayman island acount...
 
Now you're digging yourself deeper.
 
@undefinedbehaviour So perhaps make it free
hmmm
this is ridiculous
I could just hack youtube and edit the agreement first... Thats an idea
just joking!
 
Oh, FWIW, a quick search for "youtube downloader free" on the Google Play Store gives over 20,000 results. "Your honor, Google provided the software they claim violates their license agreement." "But your honor, you can't hold us responsible for the software we provide!"
 
yiz
same with torrent search engines
 
... "Assassination Politics": I speculated on the question of whether an organization could be set up to legally announce that it would be awarding a cash prize to somebody who correctly "predicted' the death of one of a list of violators of rights, usually either government employees, officeholders, or appointees. It could ask for anonymous contributions from the public, and individuals would be able (to) send those contributions using digital cash. -- Jim Bell
 
2:32 AM
lol so, would you guys say I would get in any trouble and if so what kind for makinga youtube video downloader that is to be sold
?
 
Ell
No
They will ask you to stop selling it if it becomes popular
 
yiz
^
but by then you would be rich and can afford the legal battle
 
I think you mean "but by then you would be rich and happy to oblige".
Screw the legal battle. Too much trouble!
 
@JABFreeware Yes. If you even dream of making a dime in a market where there are tens of thousands of free alternatives, you'll get in trouble with your psychiatrist for refusing to take your meds.
 
@JerryCoffin There might be an exception to that: law.
 
Ell
2:39 AM
Is it true that you can sign away your statuatory rights in the us?
 
@JerryCoffin: Ohh... Law and psychiatry.
 
@Ell What's true is that many (most?) license agreements contain clauses that would probably be difficult to enforce in court, but sound scary enough that most people comply, whether they could be enforced or not. Quite a few claim copyright protection, but then turn around and claim they aren't selling you a copy, only licensing you its use, so the rights you're given under copyright law don't apply.
 
Ell
Ahh right. Copyright law is a very difficult area I think. As well as software patents and other intellectual property stuff
Anyway. It's quarter to four in the morning here so I best be off to bed. Night :)
 
@Ell G'night. Sleep well (for what time you can).
 
lol
okay I'm going to do some research
it would be a super cool program
not like the other 10,000
YES, I have tried all of them
:D
 
Ell
2:47 AM
Thank ye :)
 
yiz
3:07 AM
I have 5 million things to do, I am stressed out, depressed, panicking, yet I am typing here. I suck.
 
Does this still work?
 
@undefinedbehaviour It is Java and therefore defective.
 
It's some very interesting Java, @JerryCoffin ;)
 
@undefinedbehaviour "Interesting Java" is an oxymoron.
 
@JerryCoffin Very well. It makes Java programming very chaotic.
 
3:14 AM
@JerryCoffin No it isn't. Java is interesting in all the ways it fails. :)
 
@undefinedbehaviour It merely demonstrates one of the many defects in Java's implementation.
@Mysticial I found it interesting for a while, but lost interest a decade ago (or so). Lots of it just repeats mistakes from PL/I, FORTRAN, etc., from decades before (this one is basically a FORTRAN rerun).
 
@JerryCoffin So you're saying that Java fails in the same ways so badly that it isn't even interesting in the way that it fails?
Oh perhaps Java fails so interestingly that it isn't even interesting in how it can possibly interestingly fail in such an uninterestingly interesting way that interests no one interesting.
 
3:46 AM
@JerryCoffin Bug or feature? ;)
 
yiz
4:00 AM
Like I said one billion times - programming languages are tools not goals. There is no 'best language', there are many constrains in real life, such as implementation time, memory consumption, running speed, system it is built on. You would not write a prototype in multithread C++ just like you won't implement a high performance trading system/search engine in perl.
At the end, it is more important to serve you goal than to write everything possible in your pet language.
 
@yiz DuckDuckGo is written in Perl.
 
yiz
your point is?
 
@yiz You said search engines are not implemented in Perl...
 
yiz
read again - high performance search engine
 
@yiz are you suggesting DuckDuckGo ain't a high performance search engine?
 
4:25 AM
@Mysticial [Sorry, had to get my son to sleep] Honestly, as I think about it, I'm not sure I can say there's any deeper philosophical meaning -- only that for whatever reason, I quickly lost interest in its failures (and the language in general along with it/them).
 
4:53 AM
May 25 at 17:03, by Jerry Coffin
@Tuntuni Easier to use old FORTRAN, where you could change the value of a literal by passing the literal to a function, and assigning a new value to it there.
(It's a classic.)
 
@ScottW I have been around a while, but I think there may be a tendency to assign greater meaning than is really there. I doubt my boredom necessarily carries any particularly deep meaning.
Actually, I suspect my boredom with (or dislike of) Java probably stems as much from its verbosity as anything else. For that matter, my feelings about C++ are mixed for much the same reason: every revision they add cool new stuff, but every new addition seems more verbose than the last, which really bugs me. I'm not saying all code should look/read like code golf, but I still dislike simple things taking reams of code.
 
yiz
herd of programming languages - just look at lambda
Something is in the fashion, everyone rushes in to implement it
 
That's odd. I find that I achieve the same (or better) with C++11 with less code than I did in C++03. I would still not call the language concise of course.
 
yiz
Of course it should
because all the new functions are reusable code that implements the most used logic/funcationalities
It is called ease to use
C++ is moving in the way of perl $$$
 
5:12 AM
@LucDanton It's probably less total code but often seems/looks more verbose anyway. e.g., although a lambda can reduce total code and keeps related logic closer together, you still end up with a very long statement. Likewise, although auto can reduce pointless repetition of types, with it in place, I often notice the repetition that's left even more, so subjectively I'm disappointed, despite what's objectively an obvious improvement.
To an extent, it's also just because some new features are good enough that I feel obliged to add code I just ignored in the past -- for example, most of my older code made no attempt at type-checking template parameters at all, just because it was so painful. Now it's enough easier I feel obliged to do it (and I know it's a good thing) but I still end up with what was one simple line turning into half a dozen ugly ones.
 
5:39 AM
Oh, I see what you mean now.
How silly would it be to require end() to be a const operation, but not making that requirement on begin()? Sounds bonkers right? But take for instance std::istream as a range: obtaining an iterator to the beginning of that can have a drastic effect on the rest of the program, whereas getting the end can't.
I guess that's another argument against the silliness of splitting iteration in two objects (that nonetheless must be of the same type).
Damn, I said to myself that I could 'just add some touches to my ranges', that I didn't have to bang my head against some hard decisions. It never really works that way does it?
Right, but ranges with mismatched const on begin/end then have a problem if they want to store this in their iterators.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do you have fun with taussig? Putting up against ^ is taxing.
 
@Mysticial oh, hey, congrats on 100k
 
6:08 AM
@LucDanton I haven't worked on it much this month.
 
lol, the list of candidates for unary operator* includes binary operator*.
I.e. they're the same operator, different arities. At least according to the errors.
 
@yiz hey hiii
 
yiz
Hello
 
how r u???
 
yiz
Good :) you?
 
6:17 AM
i m fine
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Btw do you want an example of what happens regarding copying concat_map_range?
 
yiz
Very busy these a few days
 
@yiz yup a lill bit ....
stuck in some tasks
@yiz so what abt u ?? hows ur work going on ??/
 
yiz
6:31 AM
@NipunGogia I was speaking for myself: very busy these a few days :p
 
> error| 'random_iterator_tag' is not a member of 'std'
> note: template<class Range> decltype (std::begin(range)) adl::detail::adl_begin(Range&)
For obvious reasons adl_begin does not call std::begin. Scary error!
 
lol
Not the first time GCC makes shit up.
 
How are most GUI applications in C++ written in these days? QT? WTL? Win32?
 
6:46 AM
Qt I'd say
 
7:03 AM
mawning
@l46kok GUI is fugly in C++, you should consider other options, like .NET or something
 
Well, that is, if you don't need portability (which is hard when designing a GUI anyway)
 
GTK# is portable.
 
So is Qt: and it deals way better with adopting the OS graphical style.
The only thing I hate with Qt, is their C++1934 approach of code design...
6
 
user142019
Cocoa FTW.
 
To be honest, I think graphical style is a silly thing to focus on. Yes, I'm talking about GUIs.
GTK sucks because it doesn't play nice with standard Windows functionality like accessibility features.
Dunno about Qt, though.
 
7:10 AM
Qt's surprisingly nice
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes: I think graphical consistency matters. Especially with all the new fancy operating systems. For instance, a lot of Mac Users won't use a software if it looks like its running on Windows Millenium
 
GUI's are overrated, CLI FTW
 
@TonyTheLion: +1
 
Qt automatically adapts depending on the OS which is really cool
 
Not having a GUI = one less problem to deal with.
 
user142019
7:12 AM
@TonyTheLion no UI at all FTW.
 
@ereOn Two words: Microsoft Office.
Or these days... Visual Studio.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What about it ? It looks... terrible imho.
 
Its horribru
 
Yes, in the name of consistency.
("blah blah Modern UI guidelines and shit")
And last time I saw Office (2010) on a Mac, it looked awful (but consistent with the rest of the system!)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes uh, not really. There is nothing consistent about those, and they are infamous for not following Microsoft's own UI guidelines
 
7:18 AM
@jalf The Windows 8 ones?
 
According to the VS team, "Modern UI guidelines" meant "make all the menus ALL UPPERCASE"
@R.MartinhoFernandes all versions of them, including the latest, which completely fails to blend in on Win8, yes
 
I REALLY DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM WITH VISUAL STUDIO'S ALL-UPPERCASE MENUS
 
morning all
 
7:35 AM
marnin' pirate
@ereOn Me neither, just that it feels like its SHOUTING AT ME ALL THE TIME.
I feel horribru today. :/
 
@TonyTheLion y?
 
@TonyTheLion I'd say, you are descending more and more into leet newb speak
 
@jalf I don't know, my stomach seems somewhat upset
@thecoshman Yea, its bad. Too many memes on Reddit I have seen.
> There is one useful property of this alias: since dependent names cannot take part in type deduction, we can use this alias to prevent type deduction.
not sure I get how dependent names cannot take part in type deduction?
 
@TonyTheLion ok it is yoda, fixed you can be.
 
this is from @R.MartinhoFernandes' blog
 
7:43 AM
s/fixed/debugged/
 
@thecoshman :)
 
@TonyTheLion Consider template <typename T> void f(typename std::add_lvalue_reference<T>::type t);
 
I know that some_trait<T>::type is dependent name
 
Now, assume I pass in an int&.
 
so that means that you cannot call just f(foo)
 
7:44 AM
What should T be deduced as?
 
How did you reach that conclusion?
You basically applied add_lvalue_reference in reverse.
 
well because if std::add_lvalue_reference is done inside, we don't want int&
so we need int
 
Certainly you don't expect the compiler to be able to apply the inverse of every metafunction, do you?
 
erm...
no of course I do
 
7:46 AM
And even worse, some of them, like std::add_lvalue_reference, are not invertible.
 
oh, you can't remove it
 
std::add_lvalue_reference<int&>::type is int& as well.
 
right, so that means that your f needs to be called with template args explicitly every time?
 
As is std::add_lvalue_reference<int&&>::type.
@TonyTheLion Yes.
 
aha
makes sense :)
template <typename T>
struct result_of {
    static_assert(Bool<false, T>::value, "T must be a signature");
};
not sure I get when this would trigger?
when T is absent?
 
7:51 AM
No. It always fails.
 
oh
because false?
 
Right.
The T is there because without it the expression is not dependent on the template arguments and thus the compiler would always test it, even if the template was not instantiated (and so compilation will never ever succeed)
 
ah I see
 
user142019
8:17 AM
I see too.
 
user142019
And I hear.
 
are you on Reddit?
 
Sigh. Now that Mikhail guy is proposing stuff that was already accepted. I wonder when he'll shut up.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes who?
 
8:48 AM
maw nin
 
mourning
 
yiz
@thecoshman now I am so hungry :(
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes: When they ban him?
 
@TonyTheLion ¬_¬ I'm at work
 
Or when you flag his posts as spam? :)
 
8:58 AM
Who are you talking about?
 

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