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10:00 AM
@sbi it's incredible how distanced everyday people are from modern physics
 
@enobayram It's obviously a joke.
 
sbi
@DeadMG I think his argument was that some inevitably will fall for the joke, and I think he has a point there.
In other news, in Italy, some Alien intelligence has produced wheat circles showing the operating system they are using for running their flying saucers.
 
@enobayram Blame the media.
 
Oh yes, I was trying to branch the discussion
 
@sbi Don't recognize it
 
10:02 AM
It's Ubuntu's.
Also, you fail.
 
sbi
@enobayram If @Mysticial was here, he'd have predicted your branching!
 
why? ubuntu sucks
 
:)
 
sbi
@DeadMG Oh, but you're just a puppy.
 
sbi
10:03 AM
@DeadMG And we have expected nothing less from you.
 
Ell
ubuntu doesn't suck!
 
hey
I gave it a fair chance, I installed it and tried to use it
not my fault that it refused to be usable
 
(I completely agree with the assertion that Ubuntu sucks btw)
 
Ell
is that ritual suicide?
 
@DeadMG I can imagine non-developers not liking Ubuntu, but how can a C++ developer not like it
The whole operating system is like a huge IDE
 
10:04 AM
Wut.
 
sbi
Having you, of all puppies, try out something, @DeadMG, is about as far from "giving it a fair chance" as it could be.
3
 
Ell
I understand if ou dislike unity
 
@enobayram It has the user-friendlyness of the wrong end of an automatic shotgun loaded with hollowpoint rounds.
@enobayram That's why I don't like it. I use operating systems, I don't program them.
 
@DeadMG yes but it has the developer-friendlyness of Teletubbies
 
10:05 AM
@enobayram I don't develop Ubuntu.
 
I'm not talking about developing Ubuntu itself, I mean developing anything in it
 
@DeadMG I disagree my wife (non techy) complained bitterly that using Widows 7 felt clunky after using Unity for a while
 
Wut.
I'm getting too repetitive, ain't I?
 
@enobayram Don't think you've ever used an actual IDE.
 
@DeadMG I decided to give some open source widget toolkits a try. You know, fltk, wxWidgets etc. It took me 5-10 mins on average to try each individual library
 
sbi
10:07 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Stuck in a loop, are you, robbie?
 
installation included
 
if you download an executable thing, and you double click it and it opens in a text editor, your operating system has already failed.
 
@DeadMG I think i can live with running stuff from the terminal
 
@ScottW Oh, you're talking about that Rage video I posted.
 
sbi
It's Ok now, @Scott, we've all heard that you consider NiN to be god. You can now stop preaching.
 
10:08 AM
@enobayram Most of us prefer an experience from 2012, not 1972.
 
@DeadMG just as an exercise. Compare installing boost libraries on windows vs. on Ubuntu.
one takes 15 secs the other 1-2 hours (especially if you don't know where to start)
guess which one is which
 
1. Download library. 2. Point VS to lib/headers. 3. Done.
 
build the binaries
 
ah
see, that's where Windows has Unix beat hands-down
 
in ubuntu, you don't have to point anything anywhere
 
10:09 AM
people pre-build for Windows
 
sbi
@enobayram Download 'em, you whiny.
@enobayram Then what are you to do with your mouse? Feed it to your cat?
 
because there aren't 9999999 bullshitty variants which serve no actual useful purpose except to make it impossible to target as a platform
 
@enobayram Oh that's a really great advantage. Especially since, assuming it is an advantage, which is not something I completely agree with, you can reap its benefits one hour every six months.
 
1-2 hours for boost? wat
 
whereas for Windows, people ship binaries that target XP, because you build them once for XP and you're done.
 
10:10 AM
I don't know, I really reap those benefits a lot
 
You're doing it wrong?
 
@DeadMG and install 10^20 copies of the same DLL from every damn installer
 
The first time I tried to install boost (including building the binaries with MinGW) took me around 2 hours
 
@Flexo Never had that problem.
 
when will windows get a proper modern package management system?
 
sbi
10:11 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Ow c'mon! This an OS war! Are you really trying to insert reason into this debate?! How dumb!
 
because I had to find the command line tools etc
 
@DeadMG every steam game insists on installing directx ffs
 
*sorry, comman line options
 
sbi
@enobayram You poor sod. I bet that took you an 1-2hrs, too! I mean, pressing Win+R, entering "cmd", and hitting enter always takes ages for me, too.
 
@enobayram So, your argument is that X sucks because you're used to Y.
 
10:11 AM
@enobayram Probably because MinGW is an awful port of a program explicitly designed to be difficult to port from a different operating system with a completely different user experience.
 
Sounds like something called bias.
 
if you use the actual tools which were developed for and intended for Windows, it works a lot better
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I think that's the argument of the windows folks
 
@Flexo Well, of course they have to run the installer, else it wouldn't work on machines which do not have DirectX. They don't actually install DirectX again.
 
@enobayram It's the argument of everyone!
That's why it's called a holy war.
 
sbi
10:13 AM
@ScottW that?
 
@Flexo It doesn't install anything. It just makes sure it is installed.
Running the DX installer has the postcondition that DX is installed.
Sounds sane.
 
@DeadMG because there's no trivial way to say "I need libXYZ at least version a.b if it's not already there" something every decent Linux distro has had nailed for at least the last 10 years
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh boy. If you bereft those Linux fanboys of their precious prejudices, what will be left of them?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I aggree. But I find it much easier to experiment with new libraries / languages in ubuntu.
 
@Flexo Only if you know the magic string which corresponds to libXYZ.
 
10:15 AM
@DeadMG The user can be completely agnostic of it.
You don't even need to know the things exist.
 
sbi
@ScottW Oh that. (You might learn to try to reference messages, rather than people. That's especially useful when the discussion has long since moved on. Read the newbie hints!) Someone else said that once, but you seem to be a firm believer, too.
@ScottW Ah, I know that. Good excuse. Sorry for bothering you.
 
@DeadMG you type libX and press tab, and you see libXYZ among the alternatives
 
Only if your package manager sucks.
 
@enobayram So basically, it's a shittier version of just using Chrome, Googling the lib I need, and then downloading it.
 
sbi
@ScottW Bear Impossible:
 
10:16 AM
@enobayram You ask for program ZYX and it installs libXYZ without you needing to know about it.
 
and that's before I get started on "why the hell does everything on Windows statically link 'core' things like libPNG to make system wide security fixes trivial?"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes ah yes, of course if you just want to install the program
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's basically what happens when you install DirectX too, except the DX installer for some reason (?) pops up 999999 GUI boxes it completely doesn't need to. It doesn't actually require the user's attention.
@Flexo Because dynamic linking sucks.
 
sbi
@enobayram That's all very fine. But why are you trying to sell your personal preferences as objective advantages?
 
@DeadMG I'm not saying otherwise.
@sbi Are you surprised?
 
10:18 AM
@sbi did anywone really state an objective advantage so far?
 
sbi
4 mins ago, by sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh boy. If you bereft those Linux fanboys of their precious prejudices, what will be left of them?
 
@DeadMG not as much as 100 copies of the same vulnerable library that nobody cares to fix, which all get loaded into ram individually
 
@enobayram @Flexo has.
 
@Flexo See, the trick here is, do not use shitty C library.
 
sbi
@enobayram This is a My-OS-Is-Better-Than-Yours flame fest! What objectives are you hoping for? You silly, you even started it yourself.
 
10:19 AM
@DeadMG What alternatives do you have for libPNG?
 
@DeadMG I was thinking all the BSD licensed stuff that so much seems to use under the hood more than libc
 
@sbi I don't think ubuntu is necessarily a better OS than windows, especially when it comes to USER-friendliness. but I always thought developers appreciate Ubuntu
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, if you can't find a decent library to load them, then roll your own or don't support them.
 
sbi
@enobayram If you don't think this, then why did you just embarrass yourself for the last 20mins by insisting it is so?
 
Those are not really superior solutions.
@enobayram No, they don't. Some dislike the thing like vampires dislike holy water.
 
10:22 AM
@sbi I haven't changed my argument at all. I kept saying it's good for developers, not necessarily good for plain users
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I disagree.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Wait, now you're expecting reason from the puppy?! Next you walk into meta and demand rational discussions!
 
And it's not like Ubuntu is targeted at developers, anyway.
 
sbi
Oh stop stating the obvious, robbie!
 
if you use a pile of C garbage, then you're gonna get a whole bunch of security vulnerabilities. The fact that you might reduce them by making updates easier is kinda like the fact that you might slow the bleeding of someone whose carotid artery was chainsawed open by using a sticking plaster.
 
10:24 AM
@DeadMG even Boost GIL calls libPNG under the hood
 
sbi
You guys might have realized I'm in a mocking mood today. (That's because I didn't sleep enough.)
Fear the mocking ape!
 
good for them?
@sbi Actually, I like it.
 
@DeadMG The point is that even if you use Boost GIL, you have libPNG underneath. I don't want to reinvent everything.
 
sbi
@Flexo And your car drinks gas under the hood. You don't drink it yourself, though, do you?
@DeadMG Oh, but that's just because you don't get most of what's thrown at you.
 
@sbi How can robots state anything but the obvious?
 
sbi
10:25 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Now you done it again!
 
sbi
Yawn. You guys bore me. I might just as well work.
 
dynamic linking ought to be the default for everything that is "shared" in some global sense because of security and avoiding loading the same code multiple times - if dynamic linking sucks fix the dynamic linker ought to be the solution rather than falling back on static linking
 
@sbi OMG, don't! Think of the children!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Nor do I. But when the alternative is "C", then you either accept the fact that it's full of security holes, or you roll your own, or you go without using it.
 
sbi
10:26 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes No need to. I don't have any kids for these two weeks.
 
I'm not saying that option A is impossible or undoable or even unpalatable in some scenarios
but if you pick it, then you get what you chose
 
Yes, but you lose the advantage of using something ready-made: more time to focus on your problem. That's why I said it's not superior. It's an alternative, but I can't really say it's the best of all three.
 
well, I was more going to suggest "Just don't support PNG"
 
That's pretty radical, don't you think? PNG is like, all over the place.
 
image format conversion tools are a dime a dozen
 
10:29 AM
It's a lose-lose-lose situation.
@DeadMG Yeah, and they use libPNG.
:P
 
lol
 
GIF is the future?
 
but the security vulnerabilities within are their problem, not yours :P
@Flexo Doesn't PNG exist for the sole reason that some dick owns 99999 patents about GIF and basically nobody else can ever use it for anything, ever?
 
I thought GIF had limited colours and shit.
 
@DeadMG PNG has better compression and is more flexible anyway I thought
 
sbi
10:31 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes The puppy suggesting the radical? What a novel thing to observe!
 
@DeadMG by statically linking (or having a per application DLL) you make it your problem though
 
@Flexo No, you decidedly avoid it by simply not linking anything.
 
0
Q: smart pointers and when they destruct the object they point to

FatalCatharsisI wish to use a smart pointer to an object that will be accessed by quite a few different objects. Therefore i don't want to destruct it until all the pointers are released to it. The smart pointer will point to an object that instantiates a couple objects, which instantiate a couple objects, and...

I dislike this idea that smart pointers are magical and abide by special rules. Any idea where this stems from?
 
@DeadMG that's like sticking your middle fingers up at users if you do anything with images though - PNG is the defacto lossless image compression and we could equally be talking about libjpeg
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Failure to think logically and understand the obvious, usually.
Meh, I am grumpy.
 
10:34 AM
@Flexo Image converters -> dime/dozen.
 
@sbi I don't like to start from that assumption. It saddens me.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes 90% of everything is crap, including humans. Face the inevitable, you sad robot.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I guess they've assumed it's a language extension. GC is a language thing rather than a library thing after all so shared_ptr must be also right? ;)
 
Are "rvalue" and "temporary" synonymous?
 
@StackedCrooked No.
 
10:38 AM
@StackedCrooked Not really.
 
Exhibit A: std::move(x)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That is a temporary. The return value of std::move(x).
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That returns x&&, which is an rvalue reference, not an rvalue, is it?
 
@DeadMG It's not. References are not objects.
@StackedCrooked It's an rvalue, because it can be moved from. That's what rvalue means.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes What a cute sad little robot you are. Seeing this, you musing about taking over the world now seems like the puppy claiming intellectual superiority.
 
10:41 AM
hey
 
sbi
Ha, insulting two bastard in one sentence. This way revelation lies!
 
I think I am exactly as smart as I think I am
I just have some other motivational problems which conspire against said genius
 
sbi
@DeadMG You mean you believe that you think right about how smart you are? Oh, be glad you are wrong there. That would be so dreadful to your self esteem.
@RMartinhoFernandes A tinsy little cardboard robot left out in the rain. And now it's even caught a cold. How very adorable.
RE Higgs Boson: according to CERN, "all related computing done in C++."
@DannyKalev CERN are now in the (slow) process of migrating some of their experiments to C++11.
 
10:48 AM
epic win
 
How hard is it to migrate stuff to C++11?
The constructs that stopped working were not very recommendable anyway.
Just sprinkle a dash of moves around.
 
std::move(higgs_boson);
 
@sbi oh, interesting
@RMartinhoFernandes I'd assume it's more a matter of making use of all the new C++11 stuff to simplify (and optimize) the code
making C++03 code compliant with the C++11 spec is generally pretty trivial, after all
 
How can I detect a boost Range (for SFINAE)? Is there an is_range around? I can't find it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes like from C to C++?
 
10:57 AM
@Abyx That's an awful lot more than from C to C+11
 
I think you mistyped something.
And when I say "I think", I mean "I know for sure you did, and you fail"
 
I think I don't care
And when I say "I think", I mean "I know for sure I don't, and you fail"
 
hi :)
 
But now I'll never know what you meant.
Did you mean from "C++ to C++11" or from "C to C11"?
@DeadMG Well played.
 
we're playing a game now?
did I win?
what's the prize?
when do I get the cheque?
 
11:02 AM
@DeadMG Free Linux license
 
owch
 
@DeadMG This battle. I'll win the war.
 
hehe
 
I think I'd rather have lost
 
11:07 AM
CERN reinvented a lot of wheels in their libraries
not to say every wheel.
 
reinvent all the wheels, etc...
 
But they have a cool Clang-based C++ interpreter. Which is cool.
 
one thing I miss on windows is valgrind
 
Agh, fuck it, let's make a is_range that detects begin() and end().
 
11:09 AM
And the shell is annoying, but this is probably due to the fact that I was to lazy to look at power shell yet.
@rubenvb like what exactly?
 
wow is that REPL for C++?
looks nice
 
AFAICT it's a full blown interpreter
it's also ROOT's shell, which in the very short time I kinda used it... sucks ass.
 
What is ROOT?
 
Regional Object Oriented Tits.
6
 
11:14 AM
Ouh Comic Sans
Can't be good
 
@rubenvb are u working with this?
 
The lady bug should be showing up any moment now.
 
@Nils thankfully, no. I came into contact with it for short periods of time for some courses.
 
nice
 
11:16 AM
It's pretty messy... at least that was my impression.
 
ok
the only physics framework I used so far is OpenFOAM
So with cling one could build a LightTable for C++?
 
I don't think Cling is meant to be more than an interpreter.
The CERN people are "crazy about C++", but they're still scientists, so their code is awful nonetheless. (this is my expectation formed out of the small experience I have with them)
so everything has to be C++, even stuff that shouldn't be.
 
A C++ interpreter probably has the worst UX possible.
Well, maybe the second worst. PHP.
 
cling looks really promising
 
CINT (the previous interpreter) was used a long time.
 
11:20 AM
UX?
 
@Nils User experience
 
heh
probably
@rubenvb The problem I had with OpenFOAM was the idea that PDEs could be written as they look in math. This was implemented using templates and operator overloading.
 
@Nils was it any good?
I'd just reinvent the solving code :)
 
figuring out which code is actually called can be tedious
 
some finite difference method and bang.
 
11:23 AM
certainly not the best idea
 
obviously not :)
I found a nice multidimensional integration code (though it has a clunky C interface): ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Cubature
I used it for my Bachelor thesis.
I wanted to port it to proper C++, but the code is very... C-ish.
 
cool.. yeah can imagine that's quite a bit of work
speaking of work.. I have to get some stuff done
bye
 
lol
 
:)
 
Hi guys
?
 
11:29 AM
Welcome.
 
Had a doubt in openMP
can anybody here clarigy?
clarify?
?
 
if you doubt OpenMP, don't use it.
 
lol
 
Why do you doubt openMP?
 
lol
that was funny
but my point is serious
I have a snippet which is not being parallelized
 
11:36 AM
Fine but you still didn't answer my question :D
 
Well, if anyone knows and is willing to help, I'm sure they will.
-9
Q: Which is the most demanding programming Language today..?

MckenziI as a web developer have taken up PHP as my whole and sole language for my web designing. Also I see the increasing demand for HTML 5. PHP so far is not happening for me, in other words I'm finding that PHP is not being asked any more by man IT industries present in the market. I know moderator...

WTF is this? "I know this will be closed, but I'll ask anyway because I like to be annoying"?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Some people like being trolled, you know.
 
user1151738
11:55 AM
tags : java, c++, php, .net, sql
lol
 
That's one of the fastest ways to get a question closed on SO: use multiple language tags.
 
Qt Creator's git integration is da bomb.
@RMartinhoFernandes expecially C/C++
 
@rubenvb I never tried IDE VCS integration. What does a good integration give you?
 
user1151738
but sometimes it may be for the better cause : for eg. using php and sql
 
@RMartinhoFernandes a nice overview of files to be committed, commit info, diff per file, diff per project, etc...
I'm really sold on it. Too bad Qt Creator has only good qmake project management and OK cmake project management.
 
12:00 PM
@rubenvb Ok, I see how having diffs directly in the IDE can be advantageous.
Oh wait, I did try IDE VCS integration when I used TFS :S
 
very much so. I never need to go to commandline git for this project.
 
Get an IDE with good console integration (I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I think an embedded one would be neat) :P
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh, you mean a Linux OS :-P
 
I think there's a Powershell host for VS.
 
hi
i have a desktop app.I want to control some of its aspects remotely via net
i don't want the app to contact the server in a repeated manner
is there a better way to do thos
hello
some help please
 
12:10 PM
please read a textbook or something
 
@Abyx I don't need your advice for that
 
you know, when you're really able to solve such problem you won't ask such questions
 
@Abyx I want practical answers
 
answers on "some help please"?
 
@Abyx Oh great
 
12:16 PM
GM everyone :)
 
afternoon :>
 
gahh, ill bbl, i have to go do some stuff while i stress test this computer, later :)
 
sbi
@techno Then you might want to read the newbie hints, linked from the right-hand panel.
 
Wow so many people I don't know here.
 
Well I don't know you either ;)
 
12:27 PM
New people is good. Unless all they want is answers to silly questions.
 
I don't know me either
 
12:49 PM
Just noticed that (lol) totally looks like the starwars tie hunters (seen from the front)
 
The LHC presentations both went to great lengths applauding "the new" grid computing and clever young computer guys. Do any of you have any insight on this? (physics.se maybe=)
 
@CaptainGiraffe Meaning?
 
@CaptainGiraffe Sorting through the volume of data they produce without some fairly smart computing would have been impossible
 
My boss now praises GPU computing everytime he gives a conference because he was so happy with the results my program gave him. lol
 
@Cicada The CERN presentations when they announced they found a new particle.
 
12:51 PM
Ah yes, GOD'S PARTICLE?
 
@Cicada Um, ok =) Wouldn't they all be his if he really created this mess?
 
@Cicada Well, GPUs have sure got the FLOPS if you have the application which is suited to them
 
@DeadMG Indeed. Not everything is GPU-able.
 
Not having done any GPU computing, but my fair share of Monte Carlo, I have the impression GPU is integer and matrix ops right?
 
uh, no.
only the very most recent GPUs have decent integer support- the others were virtually all floating-point
and matrix ops, I don't even know if multiplying a large matrix is a GPU-friendly algorithm
 
12:54 PM
It's SSE extreme.
 
@DeadMG So what differs GPU math from CPU math?
 
@CaptainGiraffe GPUs can't really do recursion and other such things. In addition, they suck at branching, looping, and such things.
 
floating point framebuffers are a relatively modern thing on consumer grade hardware though
 
a GPU wants to take a simple program which has mostly the same branches in it and execute it over 99999999 data elements at once
CPUs excel more at executing small numbers of very complex programs
 
@DeadMG Table lookups, like sin, cos and other maths?
 
12:59 PM
@DeadMG what do you mean by "they suck at looping"?
 

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