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12:42 AM
Does this question belong on meta? It's about SEDE and seems on-topic, but I think it'd fit in better on meta where more people would search for it.
 
1:03 AM
@VLAZ .js-admin-dashboard-button, .js-mod-inbox-button, .js-mod-menu-button, .js-mod-message-menu covers pretty much everything mod-specific.
@MichaelM. It's too old to migrate so there really isn't anything we can do about it now.
@RyanM We don't when deleting for curation reasons. I think we do delete a fair amount without closing for user-based issues.
 
1:43 AM
Is this answer deletion-worthy? I thought so but I would like some second opinions
 
1:54 AM
I deleted it for now. If they edit code in, it can be an answer again
 
May somebody please ping me once there’s a decision of which status to put SOCVR into once the strike begins? (Referring to rene’s pinged message).
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Unless someone objects, I think the stars speak for themselves. We'll be striking
And please do feel free to object if you have one.
 
Nonsense, right @Machavity ? stackoverflow.com/a/76386626/2943403 The English advice does not match the code logic. AI?
 
2:12 AM
@mickmackusa Looks like a valid answer. I can't tell if it's AI or not
And self-deleted
 
 
2 hours later…
4:10 AM
We must ask_jesus AI what to do about this mess :|
 
4:54 AM
@HenryEcker Thanks, I've added those to the userstyle.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:08 AM
In your opinion, how many times should I remind a user (with over 700K who consistently answers basic dupes) to use their hammer before I flag for a moderator to ask them to shape up? It's like they have absolutely no regard for curation.
 
@mickmackusa Probably 3. I mean, you can certainly do more. I personally wouldn't bother after that point, though.
 
@rene As much as I'd like to participate in a "strike", doing so honestly would entail believing that I could be convinced to come back :/
 
@RyanM I've also considered that it should be permitted to request post euthanasia. For instance, I asked a bad question or posted a bad answer, it got pile-on downvotes, is >=-3 scored, and I don't want the skidmark stain / badge on my profile for the deletion. I should be able to request for others to vote to delete my answer (if they have votes to burn).
 
while I haven't quite stopped yet, I am heavily leaning in that direction, and it's based partly in personal reasons that I really can't see anyone else negotiating about
 
@KarlKnechtel yeah, I see that sentiment with other long time SO curators as well.
 
6:18 AM
@mickmackusa More to the point, the q-ban algorithm should be lenient with people who recognize that they asked an unfixably bad question and improved the site by self-deleting it
 
@VLAZ Is this a valid thing to whinge to diamonds about? Or do I need to do some bulk presentation on Meta?
 
rather than leaving them with something they're expected to improve and undelete lest they get q-banned
 
@KarlKnechtel I do not disagree.
 
@mickmackusa That would probably be up to a diamond to confirm. I've not actually tried it.
 
my proposal is still: have questions start out closed by default
it should require 3 votes to open ("reopen") them, and they shouldn't receive up/downvotes until open
 
6:20 AM
@VLAZ I mean, if the user had a fit, threw the dummy out of the crib and decided to stop contributing, would it actually be so bad? They're just polluting the place with redundant noise anyhow.
 
@KarlKnechtel What's your opinion on SG?
 
@KarlKnechtel SO is not your real life so please give attention to things you should care about. I don't think SO currently deserves it to be cared about.
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@KarlKnechtel Closed-by-default doesn't help the asker. It too strongly caters to the community at the expense of the asker. Some tags/topics don't get enough attention to be reopened by 3 voters (for instance ).
 
@VLAZ I haven't seen what it looks like on the inside, but it seems like the right idea
 
Trouble is, answering dupes isn't against any of the rules and, because of that, isn't really something that moderators can act on (other than a gentle hint, perhaps). Or I suppose they could use some AI-based heuristic to determine if the dupe-answering rate crosses a given threshold, then recklessly suspend the user(s) in question. ;-P
 
6:23 AM
@KarlKnechtel how about starting posts protected? I think @AdrianMole proposed that earlier, if I remember correctly?
 
@rene Did I? I can't remember my own memory.
 
On another topic, I added a tag today via a tag edit, and notice that there was a yellow warning about how to behave when posting a question in that tag. I really wish that questions had a notice that said -- "Hey, do you frickin' know that there is a dedicated Stack Exchange community for Joomla questions? Post your question there."
 
nah; the 'protection' threshold is absurdly low, but more importantly a huge fraction of fgitw-ing is done by people with lots of rep already who should know better
 
@rene Meh, that barely helps. Only means that 1 rep users can't answer. While that certainly happens, it's not really the biggest problem with bad questions.
 
... but the Staging Ground may help reduce the number of dupes that get answered, if sufficient gold-tag-badge users get involved. In the SG, posts can be hammered before being eligible for being answered.
 
6:25 AM
@rene That unfairly acts as a barrier for low-reppers -- not in the spirit of the game.
 
OK "sub 10 rep" users. But it's more or less the same thing in practice.
 
@mickmackusa the thing is I actually don't care much at all about helping the asker, because that's not how the site works. We can't build a searchable reference that way. As it stands, askers' understanding of the site is far too far removed from the vision, and there really isn't anything that can change that.
 
Maybe protect new questions against users with more than 5000 rep. Allow them to edit or close, but not answer. /s
 
the site is marketed as "you can find out how to do something here" + there is UGC = everyone will just write out their own question longhand
 
@mickmackusa Not a good plan. Means that high quality posters also can't answer.
 
6:27 AM
wikipedia can only work as well as it does (and it peaked in 2007 honestly) because of the "pedia" right there in the name
and even then, they constantly have to protect and semi-protect pages
 
And there are some that (as far as I've seen) only post exceptionally high quality content. Even to what is otherwise a rather basic problem. They'd go in and educate how to solve it properly.
 
and if you think our Meta is unpleasant you have not seen the nightmare that is the WP backrooms
 
And these rather basic problems are also rarely "dupes" as nobody asked a good canonical. Either there is nothing really exactly about it or there are few others but they are quite low quality.
 
@VLAZ but are they adding answer to canonicals or answering the freshest questions. The former is awesome, the latter is awful.
 
@VLAZ this is a huge component of the problem.
I've said it many times already: for introductory-level stuff, the people who have the question are uniquely ill-qualified to ask it
because if they knew how to express it in a way that makes sense in a library of detailed, high-quality answers, they would likely not have the question any more
not so much because proper analysis answers the question, but because the general learning required to ask it properly will also entail incidentally answering the question
and this is why people get "beginners not welcome" misconceptions
the other issue is that the "canonicals are hard to find" problem compounds itself
one of the reasons they're hard to find is that they're interspersed among non-canonicals that were asked because the canonical was already hard to find
(assuming a reasonable candidate existed)
 
6:32 AM
@KarlKnechtel Yep. When I go into SO looking for an answer to my own problem, there are two things that are just killing me.
1) XYs - there would be a question that asks exactly what (Y) I want but the core problem for the asker was different (X). People answered for X. 2) Just not answering because "it's too basic". I wanted to know what some C# code would do. Found a question exactly about that. With a comment "Why don't you just try it". Which I personally could but it would take far more time than checking some sort of knowledge base.
 
something else I'd like to point out in this context
there are approximately 3x as many publicly-visible questions on SO as there are articles on Wikipedia
 
When I look for a canonical answer, it seems even worse. Because I often know exactly what I'm looking for. Often I know I've also literally seen it on SO. But I keep finding questions that are XYs or dance around the core problem. Or there are literally a dozen or more questions each tacking part of the core issue, not one with the whole picture.
 
keep in mind here that the scope of SO is "a programming problem, algorithm or tool commonly used by software developers, and which forms a practical question"
whereas the scope of Wikipedia is "literally anything as long as the shadowy cabal of obsessed editors deems it sufficiently 'notable' and discussed by 'reliable sources'"
 
@KarlKnechtel That's... a scary statistic. An additional problem with canonicals, when you manage to find one, is that they have so many answers. Most of the time it's something posted in, say, 2012 or whatever and there are 30-50 or more answers. Which probably only boil down to 3-5 actual approaches. And a lot of repetition.
 
@VLAZ Indeed. If you back-read PCD you will notice such trends.
(in a way, it's scary that Wikipedia is as small as it is, and meanwhile new article content seems very focused on lamely-justified coverage of current events, contrary to black-letter WP:NOTNEWS policy)
@VLAZ I have had one remaining thought for something that could actually work within the system: new stack sites for programming questions, which are a) focused on one language/technology and b) explicitly aimed at creating canonicals
 
6:38 AM
In theory, that's the new topic-related Collectives.
 
The plan is that the Meta for these sites would potentially be much more active than the main site, because proposals for questions that people actually have would need to be vetted there.
 
That just sounds like Documentation with extra steps.
 
on the main site, one of the site-specific closure reasons would be Not self-answered
(I'm one of the few who thought Documentation was a good idea that wasn't allowed to explore its potential and that the system-gaming concerns people had were largely overwrought, or else symptoms of a deeper and unrelated problem)
(I.e., the stuff that was discussed about the rep system generally on the recent meta.se question)
wait, documentation really lasted all the way into 2017?
I had left by then (and came back later) but it seemed to me that it was mostly viewed negatively long before then (for reasons I didn't agree with)
(wow, there are a lot of downvoted answers on the sunsetting-documentation question o_O )
 
@KarlKnechtel I was still new when Documentation hit. And I remember it being very confusing to navigate through. There were already duplicates but now when a question was posted, there were comments that also said "but that's already covered by Documentation". Which is all well and good, except you finding relevant Documentation was bad.
You may be looking at something you'd do in JS but there is a good documentation article for it under and didn't even mention it. Or otherwise there are topics that belong to multiple documentations but can't be shared between the documentation pages. Moreover, some documentation pages were way better curated than others. This actually introduced three different stages of curation:
1) barely, if at all - probably doesn't have the information you want 2) well-curated - lists many topics, goes in reasonable depth in them 3) over-curated - it goes into excruciating detail for the most trivial of code. The content is categorised so narrowly, that you need to see several different topics to understand how a loop works (only slight exaggeration).
At least that's my impression from back then. To be quite honest, the whole Documentation thing overwhelmed me. I took a break and wanted to explore it later. But it went away by that time.
 
it generally comes across that it wasn't very well defined
but calling it "documentation" was probably the first misstep
the strength of the q&a format is that it is reverse documentation, which is what well-crafted canonical reference material on a site like this should also be
when I document an API, I have to go through function by function and say what it does, and what arguments you pass, etc.
that covers explaining to people what you made, but it's backwards for what library users need, and searching only somewhat ameliorates the problem.
there needs to be something written that starts at "how do I do X?" and maps that to an API function to use.
although of course that is a simplified subset of relevant questions, since a lot more interesting questions might revolve around a language itself (e.g., how Python's object model works, what assignment actually does, what the calling semantics are, the descriptor protocol....)
 
6:51 AM
Documentation was literally just wiki content. It's more free-form articles and multiple people can edit and maintain them. But the first real issue comes in that you have this whole separate wiki space for each tag. And there are a lot of overlaps.
That, to me, is the start of the problem.
 
@VLAZ right, to get people to fill in that kind of information effectively, would require top-down organization in the first place I guess
 
Which runs completely counter to the stack model of essentially more free-form content that can then be organised bottom up with tags.
 
7:08 AM
@VLAZ yes; in many ways the model is ill-suited to the goal
@Machavity wow, it's worse than I expected. I actually got angry reading even the beginning of that answer.
 
 
(I am very sensitive to this game of insinuation of cultural etc. bias)
 
7:35 AM
Is the fact that MS links now result in 502 a part of strike?)
 
@markalex Not really. But please also read the immediately following message in that Charcoal HQ transcript.
 
Thanks. Will refrain from such jokes in future.
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/76387516 Are questions about a specific online-hosted Python environment on topic? It appears here that this boils down to "Q. Why can't I use this code that connects to certain websites in this specific online Python environment? A. the people providing the environment explicitly whitelist sites you may connect to", which sounds to me like tech support
 
@KarlKnechtel IIRC tech-support questions are allowed if they are on-topic. And I believe this one is: the simple fact that error is caused by something outside of code, IMO, doesn't make it off-topic.
 
7:58 AM
(as if the site's scope weren't too wide already....)
 
@KarlKnechtel Well, this discussion is much wider than mere tech-support questions.
 
Questions about getting some dev environment up and running are on-topic indeed, within reason. A good rule of thumb is: do you have to be a programmer to understand the problem and figure out how to solve it?
 
@KarlKnechtel an interesting answer would be: No, you can't but here is how you can mock / fake the outgoing calls so you can still use Python Anywhere to run/testdrive your code. So, in that light I'll argue the question is on-topic as it is not solely a customer support issue.
 
8:17 AM
I'm pretty sure that OP actually wants to get the results from those specific IPs... nice idea, though
the logical problem here is a common one that merits dupe closure; I have it on my list to add an answer to the canonical I just used, that clearly goes over the issue wit h the early return
 
@KarlKnechtel It is hard to say if this is simple typo or logical error, cause difference between valid code and invalid is a single tab here.
 
8:33 AM
I prefer to err on the side of identifying a duplicate, because it links OP to possibly useful information
 
@KarlKnechtel amen
 
8:48 AM
@bad_coder if all ROs will join the strike (and I assume they will) I believe something must be done to this room, because otherwise it is easy to imagine how bad things will start to happen here (rules violation, abuse and so on), which will result in damage to reputation of this room and possible repercussions for it in future.
 
If I find a user to be deleting AI answers and re-answering with new AI text to evade downvotes, is this a flaggable offense? stackoverflow.com/a/76388552/2943403 Most definitely not authentic answers. Cody says that he cannot ban the user. What is left to do?
 
@mickmackusa 7 answers in an hour though, isn't that problematic?
 
There is a new novel posted every couple of minutes. Can I flag as abusive? I can't keep downvoting all of them.
These are not the words of the user. These are AI words.
Is this how we want people earning "trust points"?
 
@mickmackusa which is banned on SO ... And won't be acted on due to company policy.
 
Maybe leave the posts (with or without downvotes) and use that batch as an example of what the mods and curators have to deal with? Could be an interesting (counter) statistic to the Meta announcement.
 
8:53 AM
Well, this is the first fruit of notorious policy.
 
@mickmackusa Yes that is a flaggable offense — at least I can promise you that if I review a flag for it, I will act on that flag
 
@mickmackusa I commented below the answer and flagged it.
 
Going forward, am I completely hamstrung? If I identify a user flooding the site with AI answers, and I downvote all of the answers, I'll be suspended for targeted voting, right? There is no course of action.
 
@mickmackusa Please keep flagging AI/GPT posting abuse of any kind. I can at least promise that I personally will continue to review all the AI/GPT flags, and never decline any that are valid. Since the moderators team is prohibited from doing any suspensions for most of the cases — and I have been personally told directly to stop even sending mod messages for them (even without suspending) — the flags may end up remaining pending for a long time, given the current circumstances.
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I was generally miffed before, now I'm quite pissed off. If we have a hundred users doing that ...what a storm.
 
8:59 AM
@mickmackusa Regardless of the volume, I will keep reviewing the flags and handling them however I can when the confines that the staff have put us under. At least I will keep doing that as long as I continue to have moderator privileges.
 
I'm kind of just hanging out in various chats to see when people will eventually boil over. And then maybe find some way to naturally work in shameless promotion of Codidact into the conversation... :)
 
@mickmackusa FWIW, it seems like your downvotes were effective. I looks like that user self-deleted every single answer they had posted which was downvoted. There was one remaining un-downvoted answer that they’d posted, and I just now deleted that one myself.
 
@markalex Well, when it's raining hard and you open the flood gates, then don't be surprised when you get a flood.
 
In general, in a lot of these cases, we see that same pattern — many GPT bingers quickly self-delete any answers that get downvoted.
 
9:05 AM
@sideshowbarker actually that 0-scored answer, I also downvoted, but it was upvoted before I got there.
 
ah OK
well either way it’s gone now
But anyway, also in general, downvoting these cases seems to be one of the most effective ways to stop them before they post even more
 
I am pretty sure that I am an ineffective curator while I am suspended for voting abuse though.
 
fair point
 
well there is that
yeah
but I guess I can say that if you were to get suspended for voting abuse for this, it seems like I would be aware that it had happened and would strongly object to it, and try to get the suspension revoked
 
I can appreciate that sentiment.
 
9:13 AM
@sideshowbarker will this lead to an automated answer-ban?
 
@KarlKnechtel I have to confess that I don’t know — I mean, I don’t know enough about the system behavior to understand what leads to automated answer-bans.
 
And for the future, will there be some auto-repercussions if 5 user's answers where deleted by mod? (I understand that this wasn't the case here)
 
@KarlKnechtel I would think that the actions I just took would have already caused an answer-ban — but so far at least, it doesn’t seem to have happened
@markalex I would think there already would be auto-repercussions if 5 user's answers where deleted by mod. I don’t understand in what cases it would not be. But it seems there are some such cases.
 
@markalex I'm not concerned that way, the ROs always know best.
 
To be candid about it, I think most of y’all may probably know more about what triggers auto-repercussions than I yet do. I realize now it’s something I need to study, but I confess that I really have not yet
 
9:19 AM
@bad_coder what do you mean? Or do you expect ROs to be on strike, but still moderate this room?
 
@markalex I trust whatever the case the ROs will make the right choice.
 
Aaa.. Well yes, I hope so. Just pointed out additional view on the problem.
 
@bad_coder I have to say, I place the most trust relating to Stack Exchange matters in the micro-community that is SOCVR.
 
@markalex Your opinion is welcome. ROs are gonna make the right decisions, as always.
@mickmackusa Same here!
@mickmackusa I'm wondering if the new CoC will be entering effect retroactively. Meaning anyone with a voting pattern in a past long gone that's somehow persona non grata will get the hammer.
 
 
9:36 AM
Can more experienced users explain: is it normal, that SE rolls out a very controversial policy at best (and just plain damaging at worst), and then doesn't response to anything? Like everybody there is on vacation, and is not aware of what's happening. Is it how it always happen?
Or is that the case when CMs agree with community, but don't say a word at least publicly not to lose the job, and those who decided on policy simply don't answer because they don't even know where questions are?
 
@markalex started a few years ago IMO, with new CM staff. Previously, we had great CMs (Shog, Tim, ...) who communicated well with the community and took criticism well and not personally. At some point, a new staff member came in who didn't want to have their staff interact with meta because "they got severe mental health issues" from engaging on meta. Since then, it has felt like being handed down verdicts, rather than allowing discussion.
4
 
Then I begin to understand question like "Delete discussion tag if you don't what to discuss anything on MSE" I've seen recently.
 
@markalex This AI mod policy came as surprise to everyone - I think. A 180º inversion on such short notice isn't typical.
That said, there's really no telling at this time what motivated it. If it was a rash decision based on the reasons given, or if there are different underlying reasons like the decrease in traffic over the past couple of months.
 
@markalex When shit hits the fan, this is normal behavior of SE, yes. While mods have somewhat more info we are in these cases as flabbergasted as anyone else while still expected to deal with the mess without much of a sign SE will change course. CMs are squashed between their orders and the trust they have and need from the moderators to actually be a CM and not a spokesperson.
 
9:59 AM
During the whole Monica/pronoun debacle they didn't respond either at first, but the whole thing got so out of hand with moderator resignations that they were forced to communicate, pretty much.
 
@Lundin as I see it, resignations didn't do the whole trick though. The court action Monica took helped a lot as well
 
@Lundin out of hand, is when threat of court was used?
 
Not just that but all the bad publicity in social media and even in some newspaper iirc
 
10:14 AM
Well anyway, during the Monica incident we didn't have anywhere else to go. Now everyone can just pack up and leave SO, I'm not quite sure why everyone is clinging to this platform. The only reason I'm still here myself is because there's lots of activity - it's literally the only advantage SO/SE got.
 
@Lundin There's also the issue of the effort and commitment we have already put into the site. If there are things we can do to get the leadership to change course, then let's do them.
3
There are some folks around who have been working hard - for free - for well over a decade.
 
@AdrianMole The very same arguments were raised 3 years ago and that was before they fired all veteran CMs. Nothing has gotten better.
 
Well, the current CEO and the "Head of Product, Engineering and Community" (Teresa D - is she still here, as her diamond has gone?) at least had the honesty to admit that Stack Overflow was first and foremost a commercial outfit.
 
@AdrianMole Announcement: Teresa Dietrich leaves Stack. As for the CEO he seems aloof and generally unaware of how the sites work.
The new CTO is likely to be some AI :) My vote is on Smokey, nobody knows the network better. He spends way too much time doing moderation work tbh.
 
11:07 AM
@Machavity I'd like to mirror the state which SOCVR enters, in CV-PLS OQ, which is why the details of how SOCVR as a room (and not just its members) strikes, is of interest to me.
 
11:29 AM
@Andreasdetestscensorship, maybe suggest creation of a signpost here? I don't feel qualified to speak on matter of strike on MSO.
 
@markalex It's a bit hard to keep track of where to post stuff. I've been using at least 7 different chat rooms, 2 Meta sites, and several different questions and answers for the problems of the last month.
Oh, and I finally gave in to the Discord pressure, and left some comments in there as well.
@markalex Also, I don't think the signpost should be the strike. We need another signpost to first draw attention to the problem, and then announce the strike a day or two later.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Something of news type post? Like "If you haven't heard SE Inc rolled out new chatGPT policy and it is shit"?
 
@Lundin From the announcement:
> I’ve been amazed and delighted at the level of support that we’ve gotten from the rest of the Leadership team here, and I know that I’m not overstating when I say that the fiercest advocates for the community include Prashanth (the CEO and my interim boss) and myself. There will be no shortage of advocacy.
I just don't believe that.
@markalex Well, as long as it isn't close-worthy, yeah, that's good. It needs to be featured, though.
 
12:07 PM
Morning
 
12:29 PM
I have made an attempt to create something similar to signpost on mso: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/424952/…
Please feel free to weigh-in and correct if I made something wrong.
 
@markalex and those rules suddenly became unforeseeable -> and those rules suddenly became unenforceable?
 
@NathanOliver Oops. Surely unenforceable) Auto-correct + inattentiveness = unforeseeable rules :)
 
12:44 PM
Well, I failed at not close-worthy part =(
 
@markalex I didn't close it, but FWIW, those discussions are happening elsewhere, and with more teeth than a mere Meta post can muster. When the time comes, I guarantee you this will be discussed
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship we have something coming soon-ish, we'll ping you when it drops.
 
@rene Thank you. :)
 
@Machavity Regular users might want to vent their frustration too, even though the mods are more directly affected.
 
@Machavity I hoped it to be a signpost, to brought wider attention, as right now problem is pretty hidden.
 
12:50 PM
@Lundin Oh, I want them to. I'm just not sure that a basic "Here's a Meta post about it" is the best vehicle for that
 
@Machavity As opposed to what?
 
When that one hits, it will have a ton of weight behind it
@markalex I don't think the problem is hidden, really. You already have a good Meta that is featured
 
@Machavity Yeah it would. Even more so if it includes non-diamond mods also doing moderation tasks.
 
@Machavity See the bottom 3 comments underneath it.
 
The list of participants is large. Might even be larger than the Monica strike that was headed off at the 11th hour
And trust me, the back-channel mess that has been made here hasn't helped anything. The only good news yesterday was that another issue (not yet public) that would have poured gasoline on the situation has been postponed
 
1:00 PM
@Machavity Is that good? It would've rallied more people to our cause.
 
I like gasoline. It's especially nice with strawberries.
 
Is question like "New AI .. policy: what does it mean for StackOverflow?" or "What should we do about new policy" any good?
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship I think you're missing the goal here. I do not want a strike. It was unnerving enough 3 years ago that we got within spitting distance. I don't want the network to die. But at the same time, I am purely a volunteer. And being whacked over the head for vague reasons isn't something I signed up for
The SE leadership has a view of AI posts that is both vague and untenable. They explained why they made the call they did, but it's also clear they're not sure how to deal with the underlying issues they're dealing with, so they're slapping bandages anywhere they can
 
We just need the top-tier staff to wake up and smell the strawberries coffee.
 
@Machavity I think you’re reading a little bit too much into these specific words, but that said, we are past the line now, so attracting more support is only good at this moment.
 
1:11 PM
@AdrianMole Lets go with classics: wake up for 🐴. They couldn't refuse then.
 
Obviously, neither of us here wants the network to die. I don’t think we need to point that out. We’d not be here if we didn’t want it to survive.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship I get what you're saying, but to put what I'm saying differently... I don't want to dogpile serious issues on this purely for the sake of drumming up strike support. Things are bad enough as-is and I don't want to wish for worse
 
Did anyone consider b***ing on Twitter about it? Twitter-Driven Development and all that.
 
I am grateful the SE leadership read the room and realized that, at the bare minimum, now is not the time for even more controversy
 
@Lundin folks are in contact with some major press outlets
 
1:15 PM
@Machavity Leadership as in actual leadership or just some poor cannon fodder CM?
 
@Lundin Leadership. This did not come from the Community Team
 
1:30 PM
@Lundin CMs are (understandably) keeping shtum, for now. After all, other than expressing 'dangerous' opinions, there's not a lot they can actually do.
 
@AdrianMole Well during the Monica incident they sent the CMs forth as cannon fodder first, to take the first blows. Cesar and Catija iirc. Then the Q&A Director person. Then the CTO.
 
The Monica incident was unfolding just at the time that I first signed up; so, although I know a "thing or two" about what happened, the historical details aren't part of my memory banks.
 
It was a s***show that went on for many weeks.
 
Weeks?
 
Many.
 
1:39 PM
I did have "- Reinstate Monica" in my username for a year or so.
 
52 weeks is indeed many
 
Months maybe even? They just kept digging the hole deeper with some misguided pronoun policy and some strange moderator reinstatement policy etc etc.
 
... until the legal settlement, at which point Monica, herself, effectively asked us to stop the campaign.
Maybe we should have an append, "- Say NO to ChatGPT" to your username campaign?
 
Say YES to Bard!
 
@AdrianMole Reinstate AI ban!
 
1:43 PM
Pfft...
"Reinstate Moderate Moderators' Moderation Methods Modes"???
 
Nick length limitation, I'm afraid.
 
We could all add the text "AI AI AI" to our names :)
 
Thought experiment: "What would happen to Stack Overflow if NO ONE was able to vote on any answers until 48 hours after the question was asked?"
 
@AdrianMole Months. Years.
 
I see this as a way to destroy the Upvote Pixie factor which is a key motivator for FGITW posters.
 
1:51 PM
@rene Who’s your employer, again?
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Um, erm, it's....Shmoogle.
 
Yum. Sounds good.
 
Hey, don't insult Bard. It has very cool hallucinations. Way cooler then GPT's.
 
M--
@Lundin I wouldn't say they didn't respond. They didn't deem the community worthy of their response but they did an interview with a news outlet. p.s. I was looking at the "accounts" that have caused outrage to some extent, like Monica's case or adding reactions, etc. None of them are at SO anymore. :/
 
2:11 PM
@mickmackusa You'd get a lot more daft answers posted in that 48 hour period.
 
@mickmackusa why not no one is able to post answers until 24 hours after the question is asked, and voting begins an hour later
 
... Figwits generally back off once a post has an accepted answer. Or one that is already upvoted.
 
2:27 PM
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine No more
 
@Makyen is there a diff anywhere?
 
Can a RO bin my previous request? The OP fixed the post.
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null on request
 
@MarcoBonelli From the previously released official version to the new? No. The new is a complete rewrite. A diff would just show the entire old one out and the entire new one in.
 
Ah, thanks
 
2:34 PM
People have previously requested one. It's been declined. IMO, that's reasonable, given the massive changes. We've also requested a diff, or even better a revision history, between versions as the new one was being edited from when first proposed, but that hasn't happened.
 
Attention: Please star this message if you support SOCVR participating in the network-wide strike starting 2023-06-05 04:00UTC against the policy restricting removal of AI content, which would mean putting this room in Gallery (read-only) mode until the policy is dropped.
66
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship we made our strike plan public. See this mesage
 
@rene Ah; thanks for the ping. We'll follow up with gallery mode, then. But "until this AI policy is dropped"; seems like my concerns on Discord and in the chat rooms here haven't been heard. :/
 
We heard it. Just didn't change the plans for now.
 
What about the people over at Charcoal HQ. Was this already discussed there?
 
2:43 PM
Sure.
 
@rene I hope it'll be possible to revisit this on Saturday and/or Sunday. I'll continue the discussion later.
 
@MarcoBonelli FWIW they seem to feel the Web Archive will suffice web.archive.org/web/20220201190601/https://stackoverflow.com/…
 
@Machavity thanks
 
@AdrianMole That might be postponed. I can't comment or take responsibility for what other diamonds shared earlier.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Updated
 
{biscuits}
 
@Mithical OK. And thanks for the minor spelling corrections. (BTW - I'm assuming you do know how to spell "mythical" xD!)
 
I do in fact know how to spell it, yes :) It's a portmanteau of "mythical" and "Mithrandir".
 
Aaaah - a really cool Wizzard!
 
2:55 PM
@AdrianMole There was another very significant and damaging change which was scheduled for release this week. The last we've heard is that SE is pausing that temporarily to investigate alternatives which are not as damaging.
 
no pinball required
 
@Makyen oof
 
OK, so, technically, Adrian guessed wrong in his message, so there was no actual leak of information. But, just to avoid additional speculation and be completely above-board, since it was flagged, I've removed that speculation and redacted the history.
 
Thanks
 
@Makyen This rethinking is a good thing, but we don't know what will come of it.
 
2:57 PM
Yes; if they'd just do something thinking, re or otherwise, we'd all be a lot better off.
 
Yes, definitely.
 
@Mithical Tsk, tsk. Breaking links is breaking the Internet.
@Mithical Then why not Mithrical? That'd look less like a misspelling, in my opinion.
 
Ew.
 
@Makyen They only promised to investigate the less damaging alternatives, not to actually pursue or adopt them?
 
@AdrianMole @VLAZ I removed speculation about the other shoe. Nothing in that vein can be confirmed or denied, and we made a decision to focus on the AI problem for the strike since the other shoe is postponed indefinitely
 
3:02 PM
@CodyGray Mithrandical even
 
Agree.
I legitimately always thought it was a misspelling, albeit intentional, for reasons unknown to me.
 
I changed it after my previous username was included in the '19 TL leak.
 
@CodyGray That's here (Teachers' Lounge link)
 
So, it's paused while they do the due diligence bare minimum they should have done in the first place. Got it.
 
Yes.
 
3:06 PM
@CodyGray I consider myself properly wrong and suitably redacted!
 
@AdrianMole Good title. "Properly wrong and suitably redacted"
reminds me of the ever-popular trivia team name "Often wrong but never in doubt"
 
Somehow, Feeds shows the message as deleted outright (in addition to being edited), which was not my intention, but maybe another mod did that, or I misclicked, I don't know.
 
Prof. Sir Adrian Mole, PWaSR.
 
oh is the novel character knighted?
 
Should be, for sure.
 
3:09 PM
Benighted, perhaps.
 
@Machavity Appreciated. Wasn't sure whether I'd overstep if I modflagged. And I didn't want to draw attention with a message. I figured somebody would notice and clean up.
 
Some day, I even plan to pay enough attention to this room to read my pings.
 
I get confused which room I'm in, sometimes. That speculation would have been OK(ish) in the private AI room, I guess.
 
Can someone confirm if this post is in C or C++? stackoverflow.com/questions/55508103/…
 
C.
 
3:10 PM
int main(int argc, char *argv[]) looked like C++ but I am not actually sure
thanks
 
it's certainly in one of the two
 
@TylerH That part is actually both.
 
oh, go figure...
 
@CodyGray There is now a "C."? How do you even read it "see-dot"?
 
Pure C - nothing specific to C++ in that code.
 
3:12 PM
Yeah, the signature for the main (entry point) function is the same. The way you can tell here is that they've explicitly written "struct" when declaring variables of that struct type, which is required in C (which actually puts structs in an entirely different namespace, even though C doesn't have namespaces), but not in C++.
 
@VLAZ The "Net" is silent.
 
@VLAZ I read it as the letter "C" with a period after it. Or full stop, if you're British.
 
full period, if you're an ex-pat of one or the other
 
3:25 PM
How is Jon Clements ◊ in strike list, and why does he has an empty diamond?
 
@markalex Ex-mod
 
15 messages moved to SOCVR /dev/null Discussion related to mis-linked strike page
 
@markalex Anyone with an SE account can sign the petition
 
@markalex answering the first part: because they signed, duh :) Joking aise, what @TylerH said: it's a network-wide strike of both mods and curators.
 
@TylerH Sorry, it supposed to be "Who is". Will go and test myself for dyslexia.
 
3:32 PM
Ah
He's a former elected moderator here on Stack Overflow. He stepped down probably not long before you joined/became active.
He has a cartoon dog as an avatar/profile picture, in case you notice posts by him here or elsewhere (e.g. on Meta).
oh wait, now it's a ninja-fied pic of a chihuahua. It used to be a cartoon dog... maybe it still is on chat.
 
He stepped down three and a half years ago, if this post to be believed. So it's more than three years before I joined =)
 
Jon did, indeed, step down a few years ago but more recently stepped back up again. Then he stepped down, again. I think that's what happened.
 
Lots of steps going on
 
The more recent post where he stepped down in dec 2022 is meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/422180/…
 
Anyway, he has certainly been an SO mod more recently than 3 years ago.
... Great mod, good sense of humour but a bad taste in cars.
 
3:38 PM
 
@AdrianMole I, generally, keep the rooms/tabs straight. In order to help do so, I have the tabs for the rooms I'm routinely in pinned in a single window. That keeps the tabs in the same location all the time, with some temporary ones tacked on to the end of the pinned tabs. The positioning, and that they are a mix of SO and SE chat rooms, so different icons, helps me keep them organized and recognize which room I'm actually looking at or switching to.
 
@Makyen Generally, the topic itself keeps me aware of the room. However, the AI-fiasco discussion is currently (very) active in both this room and the AI-specific room. So, although I do try to be careful, I will occasionally get it wrong. Sorry for the slip-up.
 
Not a problem. Stuff happens.
 
@markalex He stepped down during the Monica debacle, then came back after that blew over. Then he stepped down last year for personal reasons
 
3:53 PM
Can anyone see what the OP is intending here with two answers?
 
@AdrianMole I made the unaccepted one go away. Can edit the remaining
 
But that doesn't answer my question! Flagging your comment as NAA. xD
This looks very spammy on the surface (note that the GitHub repo user is the 'same' as the poster). But it is also (maybe) relevant. Is it spam flaggable? See also their other post!
 
i mean
 
k means are better
 
it's 100% an advertisement, but are advertisements that are relevant allowed
 
4:08 PM
There is a hint of disclosure buried in the text.
 
it's jam packed with cheap buzzwords
 
@AdrianMole Adrian, I'm pretty sure I've seen your name(kinda like signature) under open letter. And it contained Effective immediately =)
 
@KevinB Sometimes your lack of punctuation lets you down. Did you mean, "jam-packed with cheap buzzword" or , "jam, packed with..." ??
 
yes
 
I've edited the post
but I think the question should just be closed
 
4:13 PM
@Spevacus Good thing we have so many shoes!
 
@TylerH Hmm. I think I would have been better off in CharcoalHQ or a mod flag. Don't want to get into the user, here.
 
4:35 PM
... and now their other post hit me in the review queue.
 
@KevinB Not if the post is designed simply to promote a product or service, which is what both of that user's post are doing specifically.
 
@KenWhite We have been discussing those MathWorks posts in here. I'm still not 100% sure that they're spam-flaggable but feel free to share your thoughts.
I saw them (both) in FA review and chose to not spam flag (yet). But I'm very much on the fence.
 
@AdrianMole I see the discussion; just threw in my thoughts right above yours. :) They're entirely flaggable according to the guidelines.
 
Could they be edited to be less 'provocative'?
Are they a user we would want to keep around?
(Also, bear in mind that I'm no SME in the field, so I can't judge how useful they may be.)
 
@AdrianMole I don't see how. The poster made no effort to provide an example of how that toolset would help the questioner. It's strictly an advertisement. Whether we want to keep them around or not is moot - if the answer qualifies as spam, it's flaggable.
 
4:44 PM
I don't disagree. When I saw the first one, the comment that it was useful entered my thought process. Also, I'm on the very cusp of my "curation limit" (in terms of pending ethanol catabolism), so I'd rather "err on the side of caution" and discuss it in chat, than raise two (potentially erroneous) red flags (raising one would be meaningless: it's two or none).
 
@AdrianMole I just went back and reviewed them again (BTW, they're both deleted as spam). They are nothing but an announcement that they have a free guide available. We would not accept a post that was an announcement that there was a new open-source project (or free version of a commercial product) available on github, as product/project announcements are considered spam.
 
I can live (happily) with that outcome. If my comments (on the posts, and in here) helped the process, then that's all well and good, too.
 
IMHO the post I edited seemed to directly address the question OP asked.
 
@TylerH Which was part of my confusion.
 
If it were posted on some other mathworks question that wasn't asking for that kind of guide, absolutely it would be spam
In this case I think it was just unfortunately written/worded like a spam post while actually answering OP's question
lack of initial disclosure of affiliation included
 
4:54 PM
@KenWhite Actually, neither was deleted as spam. Both by mods: one with its parent Q, the other directly.
 
If he had started by saying "NB: I am a developer/technical writer for MathWorks. The company actually has a guide for this now, this is where it is located" it probably would be fine (although, again, the question was off-topic and needed to be closed, which it is now)
@AdrianMole the one I edited shows as deleted for spam/rude content
well, "marked as"
I guess because it had a spam flag on it and it was automatically marked helpful when the parent Q was deleted?
 
@TylerH It will show that if it has at least one red flag. But you can see a mod's name on both deletions.
 
so that it got redacted, but the deletion banner didn't get updated
 
When a mod red-flags a post, their name isn't shown. Just "deleted by Community".
Bohemian probably thought in similar terms to Tyler and I. I'm not going to even try to guess how Machavity's brain works. :)
 
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