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@R.MartinhoFernandes oh right, I was thinking utf8, but char8_t seems pretty clear doesn't it? Don't I feel silly.
 
You might be interested in those codecs iterators. Maybe. So much to read!
 
Oh, yeah. Sounds quite cool.
> The native narrow codec, which can be a problem because its encoding is runtime dependent, is built on top of <cuchar>, easing implementation and ensuring consistency.
Hmm, I might steal ideas from there.
Also, I like how my implementation has all the same advantages as theirs :)
Well, I'm missing the native codecs, but that's it.
 
I was given the impression that the codec iterators are a lower-level abstraction on which the rest is built. I.e. the typical use case would defer to implicit conversions and/or std::to_string and the rest.
 
@MooingDuck What's up? Been a bit distracted....
 
9:05 PM
@LucDanton Yeah, in mine too. Ideally you'll only ever deal with text directly, and only text uses the iterators.
 
@Shog9 We had an anonymous serial flagger a little while ago.
 
Oh
Sorry
I was busy fixing elections
 
> It causes developers who otherwise think highly of C++ to believe the standards committee is stuck in the distant past when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
 
pun intended
 
9:06 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I would have thought text is more like FS's path, although with no runtime type-erasure.
I.e. domain-specific quasi-container of some std::basic_string specialization.
 
@LucDanton Hmm, I'm not very familiar with FS.
@LucDanton Yes, something like that.
 
Ah, yes. That mention of path did strike a cord with me, not that I've ever thought of abusing it myself.
 
As of now, the only way to perform conversions is with text: text<utf8> u8; text<utf16> u16 { u8 };. I may add specialized functions to ease that, but the functionality is there already.
 
Don't forget to name the type-erasing version any_text like all the cool kids do!
 
9:10 PM
@LucDanton I guess that's because it's the only part that requires core language support.
And it requires changing the meaning of u8"". Not gonna happen :( The committee seriously fucked up there.
They're stuck in the distant past when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
:(
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes looks cool already
 
I'm sorry to say that I'm already thinking up of some ways to still move forward while not breaking preexisting code. But we've been doing that for so long, and I'd prefer breaking things so much more.
E.g.: keep u8 literals as is, make std::u8string convertible from const char* as well...
 
The PHP way: real_u8"".
 
Break them all. Stomp them to the ground.
 
Some things would be best left to -std=c++11 while inventing -std=c++0y.
 
9:14 PM
Does anybody knows about video editing in C++? Does anyone worked once with this?
I look for libraries that could make the work of creating a video timeline easier. Does anyone knows something about?
 
> Users are misusing paths as general string containers because they provide interoperability.
Ow, that's... intriguing.
 
@bitmask 'Ah,' said Arthur, 'this is obviously some strange usage of the word "safe" that I wasn't previously aware of.'
 
Provide C++ users with a concise interface that uses value semantics and sensible implicit conversions and they will run away with, is my impression. Also see: std::function, boost::any.
 
Hmm, they use unsigned char for char8_t... That gives me ideas.
 
They're bad.
 
9:18 PM
@CatPlusPlus Why?
 
You can use signed char for one more encoding, too! Maybe!
 
@LucDanton He said, with thinly veiled pain...
 
I don't like char.
 
Char is a bitch
 
@sehe std::function falls somewhat short of 'sensible implicit conversions' though. I left just enough room to wiggle!
 
9:19 PM
char8_t const* operator"" _u8(char const* str) { return reinterpret_cast<char8_t const*>(str); } Nope, not cool.
 
@LucDanton :)
 
Needs u8"blah"_u8, which is one u8 too much. Fuck this shit.
And now I remember I thought of this before, and discarded it on the same grounds.
Jul 30 at 18:46, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@LucDanton That would have to be u8"foo"_u8 anyway.
Yep, two months ago.
 
@LuchianGrigore Well, if you take the rest at face value, doing explicit iteration instead recursion is actually somewhat defendable. After all, with this kind of racy setup, there is no actual guarantee that the loop will ever finish. I guess the Noble Programmer inflicting this wisdom on out "service components" reasoned, that it wouldn't be very 'stylish' to end with a stack overflow exception. Rather, make the code robust! Make it retry. Forever! And in a tight loop!
 
@sehe I'd encapsulate the retrying policy. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the one that likes encapsulation too much or other programmers that don't consider it immediately once they go past two levels of indentation/10 lines.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes (well I didn't write it. I found it. In a place much too near)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I have seen the merits of both approaches. But I tend to err on the 'abstract away' end of the spectrum like you would
 
9:29 PM
Heh, their codec iterators also suffer from exponential size explosion if piled together.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sounds almost erotic.
 
Ok, it's a nice proposal and it pleases me that it mirrors many of my design decisions :)
 
Conspiracy
Spies
 
@jornak ???! - !
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes linky?
 
It's on twitter, and probably dumped here by @Feeds too
 
what the Committee really needs to do is junk IOStreams
 
@DeadMG How's that related?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, the real problem here is simply that C++ doesn't address Unicode- at all- and the IOStreams interface is impossible to extend to meet that goal.
 
What the bleeding fuck? Could someone have edit rights, yet not comment rights? I'm so tempted to not answer his (obvious) question and just rollback this edit: stackoverflow.com/posts/8707598/revisions
 
9:38 PM
what would be best is to junk std::string and IOStreams and replace them.
 
Ell
What with?
 
a stream library that doesn't suck horrifically, and a string class that actually supports Unicode.
 
Wait. This was a suggested edit. At least two SO users must have thought it was a splendid idea to edit that into the post??? ^^ MIND BOGGLED
 
Is Sergey wearing Goggles from Project Glass in this photo?
 
@DeadMG Yap.
 
9:41 PM
technically, anyone can submit a proposal to WG21, right?
as evidenced by the batshit insanity of some of them
 
I was thinking that maybe instead of streams, a separate I/O primitives and good serialisation framework would be better.
 
need reflection for decent serialisation
 
Aren't proposals those things where you need someone to champion you and then you make your case before the SC?
For everything else there are the discussion groups, and you do get cranks there.
By the way "X and Y are bad, let's do Z" is not a proposal.
 
Because the text format is not that important for anything that's not hello world or stupid online judge stuff.
 
@LucDanton Really? There are loads like that in the recent list.
 
9:44 PM
Though you could pretend streams are archives, I guess.
 
@CatPlusPlus That can be a separate proposal based on a superior C++11y alternative to Boost.Format, right?
 
@sehe ?! !!? !!!--
 
Then get rid of ostream istream crap, and instead have shitty_stream, binary_stream, etc.
 
lol
 
But it'd need data versioning to be decent.
 
9:45 PM
This looks fun.
 
Nerd overflow.
 
@DeadMG There is no answer appropriate to this kind of hyperbolic discourse. And normally I don't answer, but since you did address me personally that would be rude.
 
...yeah it does. :<
 
@LucDanton I remember this guy that wanted all implicit casts on all pointers.
@CatPlusPlus What does?
 
Looks fun. That.
 
9:51 PM
The crew's incompetence is hilarious.
 
Ell
Why would you want to get rid of abstract stream?
Have both stream and memory_stream, network_stream
 
This new Adobe "Source Code Pro" font is kind of nice
 
@jornak Hmm. How can it be. It starts with all the wrong words: 'Adobe'?
 
> Captain, they're willing to surrender... but they're already dead...
 
Also, 'Source Code Pro'? Reminds me of 'Word Perfect' or so
 
9:55 PM
Say what you will, but it looks nice:
 
@CJAN.LEE That edit was not appropriate IMO. You can ask questions in the comments. — sehe 6 mins ago
@CJAN.LEE To your issue, I'm guessing you missed the phoenix_operator.hpp include. Either that, or you are using a (very) old version of the library that used to explicitely require an extra header (I think maybe statement/sequence.hpp?) for the comma operator. That was an oversight and has been fixed. I suggest updating your boost library if possible. — sehe 6 mins ago
 
@sehe does he have enough rep to comment? Is 12 enough?
 
@jornak What. Colossal parentheses?
 
@CatPlusPlus Does look like a giant pile of great
 
@sehe lol, idk, I find it a tiny bit nicer than Inconsolata
 
9:58 PM
can totally imagine myself as the captain
 
"Hey, helmsman, you suck donkey cock!"
 
@sehe VS does that when your cursor is on one to help you visually identify the match. I think he's talking about the colors.
 
@DeadMG The one on the video does suck.
 
@jornak You mean void main()?
 
9:58 PM
It's on Steam Greenlight, btw.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes He does appear to generally not know WTF
 
@MooingDuck I'm sure it's not. But that doesn't make the edit OK. Two peopl have reviewed this, could have perhaps turned it into a comment. Flagged it for mod? I dunno. It just irked me. I understand that no-rep users can't do much. But hey, they can probably always post a question?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Erm, no I mean the font itself in general
 
@MooingDuck I'm not. Parens!=brackets, as well
 
@sehe oh, didn't notice them
 
9:59 PM
@MooingDuck The colors are just Notepad++ syntax highlighting because I'm not on my usual computer
 
I don't like the ls.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Was it the helmwoman?
@MooingDuck Sigh
 
@sehe I wish 0 reps could comment :/
 
@sehe Nope, the helmsman is the Asian guy in yellow in front. He pilots the ship.
 
@jornak Ooh. I should try an unusual computer once
 
10:00 PM
@jornak I'm more of a Consolas guy.
 
@sehe Goddamn you. I'm going home.
 
The woman next to him is constantly commenting that they passed their target, though...
 
@EtiennedeMartel I normally use Inconsolata but I think this might be my new font
 
oh, guys
we could totally get on Mumble and play Artemis as a group
 
Ell
What is a parenthesis?
Artemis?
 
10:02 PM
@Ell ()()()()()()()
 
Not as fun as physically in the same room :(
 
Also 40$.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, but it could still be pretty fun.
@CatPlusPlus Oh yeah, there is that.
 
@CatPlusPlus Each copy?
 
I spent way too much backing PA
 
10:02 PM
Ouch.
 
@DeadMG Yeah. And get @CatPlusPlus with us. Then we might hear him for once.
 
oh, no
it's $40 between us.
> This purchase gives you the right to copy and install the game onto every computer of your bridge (up to 6).
 
Ah, $40 for a full crew sounds nice.
 
> no copy protection or complicated systems or limits.
so in reality, we'd be talking about $7 each for a full crew complement
 
Hmmm. Nope. That would deteriorate SO into reddit or worse?
@R.MartinhoFernandes can you find that tweet where (NickCraver|M.Gravell|TimPost|SLaks|BillTheLizard) said something like "Requiring minimum rep to comment was the best decision ever made on StackOverflow" ?
 
10:06 PM
So, wait, what is Artemis? A multiplayer space strategy game?
 
@EtiennedeMartel did you google it?
 
Is it an MMO? Could we ruin someone's day with it?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Basically. One ship, six crewmembers.
 
@sehe Twitter search sucks.
 
@MooingDuck I did.
 
10:06 PM
@CatPlusPlus looks to be 5 person coop
 
21 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
 
@EtiennedeMartel Scroll up, see video I posted.
 
@MooingDuck Six
 
yesterday, by Cat Plus Plus
Rules are for bad posters, so you should read them.
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
10:06 PM
@Gopikanna Everything.
 
no, five.
 
@jornak "inconsolata". Sounds tearful, weary, restless
 
bint
 
What you want is no class at all.
Because it's a silly class.
And useless.
 
@DeadMG Since it can be installed in six machines, I think it's for six people (one server, five workstations, one captain without a machine).
 
10:07 PM
$7 for an ultimate way to never get laid.
 
@DeadMG Who?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd have thought listen server, and the captain simply has no explicit power.
@LucDanton The guy whose messages I binned.
 
@CatPlusPlus Lol.
 
Makes sense.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It is non-existant, AFAICT. I can definitely remember important keywords, and twitter will just say "older posts can not be found". Lying troop
 
10:08 PM
@CatPlusPlus the class has other stuff too, I just did not type it here
 
> No. The game takes 3-6
 
@Gopikanna Oh good. Thank you for that
 
So I'd say it's six.
 
You still don't want it.
And really, rules.
 
this class is in a header file
 
10:08 PM
You didn't even tell us what the problem is.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah. Forgot communications officer.
 
No, really?
I would've never guessed.
 
comm officer, weapons officer, engineer, pilot, science officer, and captain.
 
@Gopikanna You want a namespace, maybe. Leave the rest completely unaltered. Profit
Oh hehe.
 
-1 underspecified question — Cheers and hth. - Alf 14 secs ago
 
10:10 PM
Oh god.
 
I missed a bit of fun earlier :)
 
What was that big nested comment I saw flashing by?
 
Ok, my question is I got a build break when I declared the static function like that.
 
I know (or am just guessing) that they wanted to mirror ST here but I'm somewhat skeptical of needing a full-time player to fill a role like science officer. Does the game needs SCIENCE! all the time or what?
 
Enter happy today :)
 
10:11 PM
I'll bin you I swear.
 
@LucDanton What I gathered from the videos is that the science officer operates the scanners (the title is mostly for cool, I'd say).
 
@CatPlusPlus Calm down
 
NO wharrgrarbl
 
@LucDanton I'm not wholly sure. I think one person could do both comms and science.
 
@sehe @CatPlusPlus Eventhough it is bad, why would it cause a build break
 
10:12 PM
o btw
 
when the function is used by some other api
 
just to aid you all in thinking about this artemis thing
 
I don't know, probably ill-formed declspec. I still see no errors posted, so I don't care.
 
thx! love books! and recursion!
 
I seem to recall that when we got a paid account to do Kyrostat, we agreed to do a group pay thing
 
10:12 PM
@Gopikanna Hmmm. No clue. Perhaps see stackoverflow.com/questions/12573816/…
 
but I'm not entirely sure that everybody contributed
so you all owe me! mwaha
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, right. What about comms? I wanted to point that role out but I thought they did the scanning -- guess in the series they rotate the 'I just scanned something!' role to spread out the screentime.
 
was that the game thing
 
@DeadMG I only recall like 4 people agreeing to contribute, but I wasn't part of anything, so I might have missed more agreements.
 
@DeadMG you all? Please be a little bit more precise. Also, take this to

 Kyrostat

Inactive room, go away.
 
10:14 PM
@sehe heh, rooms frozen
 
Ell
How is that? Dead?
 
Dead like MG.
 
I was more thinking along the lines of the intervening months, although that was probably my fault for not cancelling it earlier
 
@MooingDuck skies aloft
 
anyways, I was only kidding
 
10:14 PM
@sehe @CatPlusPlus and the build break got resolved when I defined the function in .cpp instead of the header file , Any idea?
 
No. Don't ping me about that TIA
 
I have a somewhat non-technical question about making static libraries, may I ask?
 
@Gopikanna Take your question to Stack Overflow. Quick. Please. And, bring the fucking compiler message (probably linker error, anyways)
 
Maybe. Is the question interesting?
 
@CatPlusPlus Probably not, well, depends...
 
10:16 PM
I'm curious about how a question about static libraries can be non-technical.
 
They're book libraries.
 
@Bane That sounds like an oxymoron.
 
Ell
Maybe he means physically static real life libraries
 
They're static because well, hard to move a building.
 
Wow! The question that keeps on giving!
 
10:16 PM
@Ell Hehe
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's more of a "it works currently, but I'm not sure if that's the convention" type of question... Probably my naming OCD or something.
 
Ell
Ahh my laptop is pinging loudly I must shut it down
 
@Chimera The question they keep on begging
 
@Ell With FIRE
 
10:17 PM
That's why I said "somewhat".
 
I need to convince my meatspace buddies to pool those $40. I'm sure I can convince three of them and maybe a fourth if he gets to be captain.
 
I have a nontechnical question: "Why is a chopper circling our neighbourhood at low altitude at 00:18am?" (no floodlights though)
 
@LucDanton Comms seems to do hailing for help and to avoid conflict. Not that they used it much in the video (blame the suicidal captain). Yeah, that role can probably be done by someone else. Probably someone doubling on scans and comms.
 
@sehe Obviously a top secret government tactical team.
 
They could perhaps conceal better by making less noise. This is annooooooying
 
10:19 PM
@sehe nah.... I'm genuinely surprised and amazed. I thought it would have been closed a long time ago.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Anyways, it would be rude of me to assume that the game marries players to roles just because they chose to do it in the videos for fun.
@CatPlusPlus Aha!
Dynamic, non-technical library!
 
That's not a building silly.
 
@LucDanton Nah, they do, but the other roles seem a lot more concrete- pilot, captain, weapons, helms, engineering.
 
Unless you're a hippy.
 
@sehe to get a better view
 
10:22 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Nah. The floodlights. They forgot them. No, it's clearly circling slowly. Probably just on standby. Sounds like a heavy type. Can't really see much because ... too dark.
 
Ell
Woo did it From my Phone
I need to set up an internal DDNS thing
 
How many close votes are needed to close a question? 5?
 
@Ell You mean, NAT? Or masquerading, as the cool kids called it ~10 years ago?
 
@Chimera in normal cases, 5
 
Ell
Not sure. I want to be able to go ssh ell@ell-laptop from any computer
 
10:25 PM
@MooingDuck Thanks. What's abnormal case?
 
Ell
Or ping ell-laptop
I would have to edit etc/hosts but there are windows machines too
 
@Chimera mods count as five votes :P
 
@MooingDuck oh :-)
 
Ell
So I need a DNS server right? but then my laptop uses dhcp so it needs to be dynamic
 
@Ell There's a host file on Windows too.
 
Ell
10:26 PM
Well I'd rather not have to edit on all computers
 
%SystemRoot%\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
 
@Ell Do you have an ISP that will even allow incoming SSH packets to your router?
Or are you just talking about an internal network?
 
@Chimera The fuck? There are ISPs that don't allow that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yep..... Many of them in the US
 
Ell
Talking internal, but my ISP does allow that
 
10:28 PM
Unless you have a "business" plan.
 
Ok. I posted the question
 
@Chimera I guess they'll take any excuse to milk more money from their customers. Sigh.
They should simply bring packets from point A to point B.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yep.
 
Ell
I think ddns would solve this although its overkill
 
Xeo
WTF
I suddenly got a 4k ping in TeamSpeak.
Out of fucking nowhere.
 
10:36 PM
@sehe Last thought before it crashes into your house 'maybe it has some electrical failure?'
 
@Ell How many computers on your local network?
 
Ell
I remember playing a game of spring and this guy suddenly got 40k ping. He ended up spamming extremely weak scout vehicles for the whole game because his commands wouldn't come through
 
@MartinJames Hehe. No - it seems to have found nicer houses to look at
 
If it's less than say 10, just statically assign each an IP and create the etc/hosts files.. done
 
@MartinJames Twitter knows nothing about it, so @DeadMG must be right.
 
Ell
10:37 PM
meh I suppose. It seems like the wrong way, static IPs do
 
Xeo
Okay, back to normal... must've been someone in the kitchen throwing food into the microwave oven for ~3minutes...
 
@Ell Nah, it's often done for small networks where the need for a DNS server is minimal and would be overkill.
 
@Ell Just buy a router that does DHCP and updates it's internal name tables with registered leases
@Xeo hehe
 
@Xeo Wifi? Assuming you play games (why use TS otherwise?), one more reason to move out!
 
@Gopikanna You know the policies. It's okay to tell us, no need to driveby link
 
Ell
10:39 PM
if I access my routers dhcp lease table, it has a table of names to IPs but I cant ping the names or anything
 
@Ell because you didn't set your router as your client's DNS server? Use it as the relaying DNS, profit
 
Ell
Hmm I will try
 
@sehe Do standard consumer grade routers include DNS servers these days?
 
Man, that optional proposal was sent with non-assignable optional<T&>. I hope cooler heads prevail.
 
Ugh.
The fuck is the use of that?
 
10:43 PM
Why would you want DNS server on the router.
 
the sack: I'm going to hit it
 
@DeadMG go kennel up
 
@LucDanton That's just a damn T *const. That's not useful at all.
 
I'd hit anything.
 
@Chimera that makes no sense.
 
Ell
10:44 PM
@catplusplus so you can ping your local machines names,not static IPs
 
@Chimera Mine do (Linksys, Fritzbox and -- damn forgot the other brand I had)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I want them assignable, so I don't want 'we already have T*' as an argument. You want deep semantics?
 
@Ell $ ping macbook-pro-van-radek.local
 
Unless you need to ping them from each other, hosts is enough.
 
@daknøk I know. But I'm trying to follow Ell's and sehes conversation... and I thought it was suggested to use the DNS on the router.....
 
10:45 PM
@LucDanton No, no. Forget that argument.
 
And faster than running full DNS cache/relay on your own.
Don't do that if you don't know crap about DNS, you'll be happier.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right. Any assignment is so much more ahead of no assignment.
 
@CatPlusPlus And less error prone
 
Ell
.local doesn't work.for.me
 
@Ell Perhaps search a bit on Super User
 
10:47 PM
I do like that emplace-construction was chosen though (maybe it was in the original pre-proposal, I don't recall). I already support that, too!
nullopt makes me lol though.
 
@LucDanton Yeah, no assignment is just braindead.
 
@Ell No really, just set each machine to a static IP and use the hosts file on them... If you only have a handful of machines/devices it's not so bad.
 
Edit hosts, add entry for each machine, done.
You can even copy hosts around, because you won't ever have more than 10 machines.
 
Either assignable optional<T&> or no optional<T&> (but I'd like to have it).
 
And then setting up hosts rsync (or just via Dropbox or something, really) is still easier than running DNS.
 
10:49 PM
Man. I’m tired but sleeping is such a waste of time.
 
Ell
Hmm I will have to root my phone
To edit the hosts file on that :L
 
Uh. Hey everyone. This is my first time here, and I've been searching on Stack Overflow for a bit, trying to find an answer to a dilemma I've come across...
 
Xeo
@LucDanton I use TS to... just talk to people. o_o
 
holy fuck! dunno if it's a fake but still - translate.google.com/…
 
I've read the rules for the C++ lounge, and understand you don't have to answer my question, but I hope you will.
 
10:55 PM
Well nevermind the conclusion when the premises are wrong.
 
I like you.
 
It's essentially a pointer problem. I have a pointer to any type (templated), and I need to be able to appropriately nuke said pointer when my reference counter hits 0. Everything is working fine except for when I decide to use a pointer that points to an Array.
I told myself "Oh, I'll just use delete[]", but I have no way of figuring out (at least in my head, currently) whether a pointer is actually an array to a collection of objects or just a regular pointer to a single object.
 
std::shared_ptr
 
Are you familiar with the notion of type-erasure as used in the C++ community?
 
Xeo
std::shared_ptr<void> to be specific
 
10:58 PM
I have never heard of type-erasure in my life.
 
@Abyx That doesn't mean much to me (probably because of the Cyrillics/Russian cultural references?)
 
Never use delete or delete[] manually, unless you're implementing RAII primitives.
 
Um. Should I be google-fu-ing?
 
I also recommend std::shared_ptr then.
 
Xeo
34
Q: Type erasure techniques

Xeo(With type erasure, I mean hiding some or all of the type information regarding a class, somewhat like Boost.Any.) I want to get a hold of type erasure techniques, while also sharing those, which I know of. My hope is kinda to find some crazy technique that somebody thought of in his/her darkest ...

 
10:58 PM
@ThePhD You don't have to. It's a somewhat advanced implementation technique. There may be easier ways to solve your problem.
 
Xeo
Might have some interesting info
 
Also if you have a dynamically allocated array, use std::vector.
new[] is very rarely actually useful.
 
@daknøk I was late sorry:
 
@Abyx Does that mean someone is trying to get Java to be an official spoken language?
 
@sehe Perhaps they're tracing the iTunes nukes?
 
10:59 PM
@sehe it mean exactly "In Lviv (Ukraine), the programming language Java can get the status of regional"
 
Don't fall asleep now
that would be a waste of time
@Abyx Why is there a prision in the picture?
 

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