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5:00 PM
@MooingDuck What you are calculating is 3 apples times 7, period.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no dimension.... I think that's key. I wonder if that will stick somewhere in the insanity in my head
@Drise I'm compiling still :/
@kbok if "apples" isn't a unit, then what I'm calculating is 3 times 7, period.
 
@MooingDuck Did you see the last xkcd on bird poop ?
 
If you make up a dimension for applosity, it makes sense to have apple as an unit of that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes true, we do that for colors
 
@MooingDuck But apple is a unit
 
5:02 PM
Then you can make up other dimensions, like the aforementioned "apple density", which would be applosity * length^-3.
 
@MooingDuck Well, you see, if you had 20 apples, you could have 5 rows of 2 apples, and then put an extra layer of 5 rows of 2 apples on top of the original ten. Then you'd have 20 cubic apples.
 
Regarding the 3 apples times 7 apples example... Interpreting what applosity^2 means is a different matter.
It certainly doesn't apply to your grid example.
 
@kbok probably, but I don't recall it immedately
 
ITS TUESDAY WHERE IS MY WHAT IF XKCD?!
 
@Drise That's not true
 
5:03 PM
In your grid example you have 3 rows * 7 apples/row = 21 apples. Does this clear or create confusion?
 
@kbok I know.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think it's very clear. But I came from physics and chemistry where unit cancelling was fundamental.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, that seems to be an argument for the "apples is a unit", but it's actually an argument for neither
 
@MooingDuck I never said it wasn't. I said it can be. All you need is a meaningful dimension.
 
@MooingDuck apples is a unit measureing the quantity of apples.
 
Ell
@MooingDuck unit cancelling? as in 1V = 1JC^-1 ?
 
5:05 PM
@Ell Yep.
 
Most of the time you disregard those things because you know they will cancel out in the end.
 
one volt is a joule per coulomb.
 
I didn't know volt was a "composed" unit.
 
volts and amps are like water in a hose. volts is the speed of the water flowing, and amps are the amount of water flowing.
 
And not all dimension combinations make (obvious) sense, like, say, mass^2, or applosity^2.
 
5:07 PM
@StackedCrooked Yea. It's a measure of how fast the electrons are moving from point a to point b.
 
@Borgleader it's a good question IMO
 
Sad.. **C++** example code from some university. Not one program even declares a class.
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/teaching/intro/fa96/code/index.html
 
@StackedCrooked Depends on the system. You can just base a new system on volts and derive other units from it.
 
@StackedCrooked Everything's a composed unit, depending on how you see it. Joule and Coulomb are also composed units if you see it from the SI point of view ;)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm trying to find an example of applosity^2 but it's very hard.
 
5:07 PM
If you lay 10 Ruby developers end-to end, what do you get? A big problem with body-dumping - you'll need a truck.
 
@Chimera one or three, not two
 
@MooingDuck: Really? It has nothing to do with visual studio, all cmd line arguments are separated with spaces...
 
@NikiC nonsense, there must be base units. SI has like, six. Unless you get into quantum, then it's like 4 or something
@Borgleader exactly why it's a good question
 
@Chimera You notice, every file is a "*.c", and all the #includes are <iostream .h >
 
@MooingDuck Sure. But you can choose different bases ;) That's why I said "depending on how you see it"
 
5:09 PM
@Drise But look at the heading
 
@NikiC as long as you acknowledge that "every way to see it" has some non-composed units
 
@Chimera I know.
 
@Drise Not just .c, but .C
 
@MooingDuck I only know the big 3.
 
@MooingDuck yes
 
5:09 PM
sabry@cs.uoregon.edu
We should email them and tell them they should feel bad, because they are bad
Please tell me what's wrong with this.
ifstream f1;
ofstream f2;

Type is undefined.
 
Woah, woah, screen space.
 
Ell
also void main
 
@MartinJames length, mass, time, uh.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units electric current, thermodynamic temperature, luminous intensity, amount of substance
 
In fairness, Last modified: 06/18/1997
 
Xeo
@Chimera: Cool that your SIGFPE problem was resolved. :)
 
5:12 PM
@MartinJames I admit to only understanding three though :(
 
@MooingDuck In reality, all dimensions are meaningless constructs conjured up by feeble human brains to allow people to more accurately describe our world.
 
A friend of mine knows I'm receiving a payment tomorrow, is it wrong to borrow money from him today, because I don't have a penny?
 
@MooingDuck The electric charge is quite easy to grasp
 
'amount of substance' - I guess that'll be a moles/ av. number thingy - I'll Google it later.
 
Xeo
And with that, re and back to reading the papers
 
5:13 PM
6.0221415e+23 things per mole.
 
@Drise nonsense, they aren't meaningless.
 
That was hard to grasp.
 
@MartinJames no, it's "moles"
 
@MooingDuck Amount of substance is quite similar to applosity.
 
@kbok it seems like it doesn't need to be a "base unit" though
 
5:14 PM
@MooingDuck It's entirely meaningless.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes from the description it appears unitless
 
@MooingDuck why ?
 
@Drise we need them for effective communication. ergo, not meaningless.
 
It's a count of thingies, any thingies.
 
@MooingDuck to allow people to more accurately describe our world. In the scope of things, it's meaningless.
 
5:15 PM
@kbok it seems like it could be measured in terms of other units.
 
@MooingDuck The unit is mole, which is <Avogadro's huge number here> things.
 
@Drise right
 
@MooingDuck You need a base unit for electrical charge though.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes which is the number of objects. Which seems to me like it would be a scalar
 
@kbok An electron.
 
5:16 PM
@kbok number of electrons - number of protons = net number of electrons ~ scalar?
 
Because it can't be expressed in terms of either length, time, or mass.
 
@MooingDuck It makes a difference. It prevents you from accidentally multiplying things by things, for example.
 
Coulomb i think is the number of electrons.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes .... oh that makes sense.
 
@MooingDuck No, if you want to approach it that way, the unit would be "electron".
 
5:17 PM
I guess that would be electronic charge.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes so the apple unit should be derived from the mole unit?
 
never mind: It is defined as the charge transported by a steady current of one ampere in one second:
 
@MooingDuck That's a possible definition, yes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I hate physics
 
Ell
@Drise coulomb is charge
 
5:18 PM
@MooingDuck No, 6.022e23 anythings is a mole.
@Ell I know.
 
Ell
@Drise avagadro's number :D
 
@Ell yep.
 
@Drise An "apple the unit" is 6.022e-23 moles of apples.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes e+23
 
@MooingDuck The mole is a very weird unit, and you shouldn't use it for reasoning. It's the exception to the rule.
 
5:19 PM
@Drise Nope, one apple is not a huge number of apples.
 
@kbok it's wierdness is the reason I'm wondering about it
@Drise Martinho got it right
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, but a mole is a very large composition of things.
 
Ell
@MooingDuck No he didn't? it's to the +23
 
Yes he did. :)
 
@Drise And one apple is a small fraction of a mole of apples.
 
5:19 PM
@Drise which is why only one of those things is a tiny fraction of a mole
 
Wait
I see.
 
Ell
oops I misread sorry
 
Same here
 
Ell
Drise and I must be on the same wavelength there :L
 
We could have a molarity of apples.
Could be useful in apple bobbing.
 
5:21 PM
so a mole is a count of things, but isn't quite a scalar, preventing you from doing stupid things with it that make no sense. Very strange.
my build finished!
it failed.
because... the program was already running >.<
 
The 23 got inverted but not the 6: 1/6.022e+23 moles of apple.
 
@MartinJames if you used the reply feature of chat, we'd know what you're talking about maybe. mouse over teh post, click the arrow that appears on it's right side.
 
@MooingDuck How long was it going for - how long your builds take to not run?
 
@MartinJames 20ish minutes normally, if I don't build the dependencies.
 
@MartinJames Oh, that's true.
 
5:25 PM
@MooingDuck Yeah - appleologies everyone for any confusion..
 
and why is an Amp a base unit, when it's the same as one coulomb per second?
 
@MooingDuck Because one Coloumb is 1 A x s?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...oh
 
Picking the base units is kind of arbitrary since you can define any unit in terms of any unit it is used to define.
You usually go for those that can be defined exactly and easily, and for a small number of them.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Except maybe moles
 
5:29 PM
@MartinJames Why not? What units are defined in terms of moles?
 
oh, the wiki page even has a picture of which "base" units have dependancies on other bases in their definitions.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's what I meant.
 
@MooingDuck What's cd?
 
@MooingDuck Unless I'm badly mistaken, the Amp was considered a base unit quite a while before the Coulomb came into use. Besides, for electrical engineering, the base units are nicely related via Ohm's law: I = E/R. Coulombs take quite a bit more work.
 
@MartinJames Let's name a unit of molar mass "molar gram", which is 1 gram per mole. Now you can define a mole as 1 gram per molar gram.
@DeadMG Candela.
 
5:31 PM
and I also don't recognize A- amps?
 
@DeadMG luminocity I think
@DeadMG yes
 
Xeo
Did I mention that LWS still doesn't work?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm. Maybe I need more beer.
 
Anyway, I think it's desirable to keep Amperes as a base unit because the definition of kilogram is not good.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they're fixing it eventually
 
5:33 PM
@Xeo or @MooingDuck's build, or my protocol-parser. It's going to be one of those days..
 
I keep hearing this really peppy series of songs on my video game pandora channel, and when I glance over, they're "angry birds".
@MartinJames oh come now, my builds never work
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Coulombs would serve that purpose just as well.
 
@MooingDuck Maybe. I've seen suggestions of defining Amperes for use as a base and define kilogram in terms of that.
 
Coulombs have a much easier definition- it's X times the charge of an electron.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes How is is defined? Could it not be some molar multiple of a proton mass, or something?
 
5:36 PM
@MartinJames Yeah- 1kg = Avogadro's Number * proton
 
@MartinJames Currently, it's defined based on the International Prototype Kilogram, a cylinder of some alloy stored in a vault in France.
But the mass of that thing varies with time.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That is suck.
 
So they recalibrate the definition every few years.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes And measuring it is difficult, too, since there's a whole bunch of gravity and whatnot getting in the way, no?
 
Several countries keep replicas of that cylinder for their own measurement, and also recalibrate the replicas with some regularity.
It's a mess.
 
5:37 PM
"After the International Prototype Kilogram had been found to vary in mass over time, the International Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) recommended in 2005 that the kilogram be redefined in terms of a fundamental constant of nature. At its 2011 meeting, the General Conference on Weights and Measures (CGPM) agreed in principle that the kilogram should be redefined in terms of the Planck constant, but deferred a final decision until its next meeting, scheduled for 2014."
 
@DeadMG Yes, it's a clusterfuck.
 
@Xeo Yeah!
 
@DeadMG I don't think that's right. The proton's mass is 1.672621777(74)×10^-27 kg, and Avogadro's number is around 10^23.
 
huh
how strange
 
The kilogram or kilogramme (SI symbol: kg), also known as the kilo, is the base unit of mass in the International System of Units and is defined as being equal to the mass of the International Prototype Kilogram (IPK), which is almost exactly equal to the mass of one liter of water. The avoirdupois (or international) pound, used in both the Imperial system and U.S. customary units, is defined as exactly , making one kilogram approximately equal to 2.2046 avoirdupois pounds. In everyday usage, the mass of an object given in kilograms is often referred to as its weight, which is the measu...
 
5:40 PM
oh well
the point is that you can just say 1kg = 1/(1.672621777(74)×10^-27) * mass of proton.
 
@DeadMG The problem is that, since currently the definition of Coulomb depends on the kilogram (through the definition of Ampere), a Coulomb is just as well-defined as a kilogram.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 1 Coulomb = constant * charge of electron?
 
@DeadMG Yes, all that is needed is an agreement on what fundamental constant to use.
 
just pick whichever gives the best approximation of the current value of the Coulomb
I thought the mass/charge of electrons and protons was obscenely accurately measured these days
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes c?
 
5:43 PM
@DeadMG But in terms of kilograms!
I think the problem is just that they're lazy fucks and don't just settle on one of the myriad possible definitions.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Best summary yet <g>
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they agreed it should be defined in terms of the plank constant, but got stuck on details
 
wikipedia says that −1.602176565(35)×10−19C is the charge of an electron.
so there you go
 
@MooingDuck Yeah - the minibars were not all empty.
 
1C = charge of electron /(1.602176565(35)×10−19)
 
5:45 PM
@DeadMG we're trying to figure out mass atm, not charge, right? Charge has a definition.
 
@MooingDuck He's proposing using the Coloumb as a base unit (then you can define Amperes, and then kilograms).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh
@DeadMG 1C = charge of electron *(1.602176565(35)E19)
wait, what's that (35) in the middle of that number?
 
@MooingDuck Forgot the negative.
 
@DeadMG I also changed the division to multiplication
 
Repeating infinitely.
 
5:46 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh, never seen that notation before
 
Or possibly uncertain digits.
I think I've seen the notation used for the two purposes before.
@DeadMG Since the Coloumb is an approximation (it's defined in terms of kilograms, dammit), that value is also an approximation!
It's approximations all the way down.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes not if you redefine it to be a constant multiple of a measurable constant.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Meh.
that doesn't really matter
 
So my question has a big star under the vote count and a small 3 underneath the star. What does that mean?
 
@Chimera 3 people "favorited" your question
 
5:49 PM
@Chimera 3 people have "favorited" that question
 
@Chimera 3 people favorited it
and will get notified of events on that question
 
ah ok... thanks
 
Think of it as a super-upvote that doesn't give any rep.
 
@Chimera 3 people told you that 3 people favorited it.
 
@Chimera It's been redefined in terms of the solar unit.
 
5:50 PM
Wow, that question just keeps on giving. Now it's up to 28 upvotes.
I figured it would get closed for being too localized.
 
@Chimera It does have 3 close votes on it though.
But I'll vote to reopen if it does get closed.
 
@Mysticial Me too, if I can.
 
@Mysticial Yep, Thanks. I saw that. People can learn a lot from that question I think...
I know I did.
 
@Chimera Just ask a neat performance question. It might get 300+ votes. :)
 
@DeadMG The only difference it makes is that picking a multiple of a different fundamental constant changes how the units vary with our improvements to measurement accuracy. I don't know which constant is better in that aspect.
 
5:51 PM
lol
 
heh
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not sure what you mean
 
@DeadMG As the accuracy of our length meters improves, the speed of light changes (or the metre; now I'm a little confused; one of them changes).
 
@Mysticial: in your opinion, is it worth buying a book on C++ TMP?
 
What is so great about HTML5 that is said to be able to replace Flash?
 
5:54 PM
@Borgleader You're asking me? We all know that I don't know C++ or even C for that matter. :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right. But there's pretty much no other way to go about it, so
 
I will google, just thought maybe one of you would know from experience.
 
@DeadMG Yeah, but I think that's the only reason to spend years not deciding upon one constant.
 
@Chimera No continual Adobe updates
 
"C++ Templates" by David Vandevoorde is good but not yet updated for C++11.
 
5:55 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I don't see the point.
 
@MartinJames Adobe has been on a freaking update terror ... I did notice that.
 
@Mysticial: Your profile disagrees :P
 
what difference would it really make if I picked −1.602x10−19 instead of −1.603x10-19?
all that matters is that the new Coulomb is well-defined and approximately the same as the old Coulomb
 
@Borgleader Go through my tags and you'll realize that almost none of the C++ sub-tags are there.
 
@DeadMG because it means if we get better technology and thus more accurate measurements, we have to change the value for everything previously measured. Speed of light goes from N meters per second to N + 0.000000001 meters per second. For every measurement ever made
 
5:58 PM
Dammit SE... Y U make 200 post min. for gold badge?
 
@DeadMG Ok, here's a simple example: the first definition of metre was 10^-7 of the distance from the equator to the North pole, along the 0º meridian. Later, our measurement ability improved and it turned out the distance was actually 10002 km instead of 10000 km. Keeping the definition of the metre would mean metres became larger (1.0000002 times what all the rulers showed).
I got some numbers wrong there.
 
why was this question not closed?
 
@Chimera Your question made the newsletter today.
 

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