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Sometimes I think I'd like to see a screenshot of what SO looks like for Sam
 
wow, it is not well-received at all
 
@LinkBerest thanks for linking. I actually missed this but I've been able to add my downvote to the feature
 
has anything new been well-received in... the last couple of years?
there's the dark theme I guess
 
Yeah, I found it yesterday cause the screen setting I use (as someone who is colorblind) made the new bubble upvote/downvote insanity (of dear lord that is horrible) with a hand praying (considering another background always uncomfortable) show up horribly (it looks horrible either way but this made it extra jarring) and meant it was time to re-open meta
 
9:04 PM
@Aran-Fey yeah, that's about it. the rest was at best lukewarm. they really burned through a lot of goodwill with the last few years of blunders
 
@Aran-Fey that helps a lot
@Arne shocking
 
dark theme actually made SO useable without major custom style-sheets for me (and others like me) so was very welcome
removing "research effort" from the downvote reason (and making the tooltip a big pop-up) is the worse of these changes (actually, the thank-you is; I've just given up on SE not changing into a Social Network and will just use it until it does - then leave)
 
Did you fix your dark theme, @Aran-Fey btw? Over the course of quite a few weeks, a lot was covered and one of the things was about browser persistence of user input
I've gone with global CSS variables but, would you have thunk it, IE doesn't support those
 
easy answer: don't use IE ;) :P
 
Well, my instinct is to tell the users to get in the bin, but I'm kinda aware that my target audience in factories might not have the best IT support
 
9:11 PM
If you mean the theme for my website - not yet. If you mean my SO theme - I stopped working on it
 
Is IE still a thing? Are Edge and IE11 two different things?
 
BTW, this new feature was mentioned 6 months ago. See meta.stackexchange.com/q/339283/334566PM 2Ring 10 hours ago
@Aran-Fey The ability to Follow questions & answers is pretty good. And you can now see stuff you're following on your profile page.
 
@cs95 pretty sure they're different things, yes. I guess IE will continue to get security patches for a while before they completely discontinue it
@PM2Ring Oh yeah, there was that. And reducing the number of close votes to 3 was also a welcome change. There's more good stuff than I thought
 
I've noticed people generally respect Edge a lot now, probably because it uses Chromium under the hood. It certainly hasn't inherited the "Happy new year 2009!" meme from IE
 
they can probably coast on using Shog's older ideas for a while
 
9:21 PM
the close votes was only welcomed after Shog commented on it, if I remember correctly.......
 
@cs95 you can see coverage here
 
@PM2Ring on Twitter - that wasn't even an employee post but Mithical (who is doing a fun poem thing on Meta if anyone hasn't seen btw)
 
Hmm, interesting... both IE11 and Edge are tier 1 browsers...
 
@cs95 new edge or legacy edge? there is a major difference
the legacy edge still exists too (because people do not update - some companies as a matter of policy)
 
huh, both I guess. Even before the switch to chromium backend there was still a distinct difference in quality between the two
at least, that's what I perceived
 
9:27 PM
the "new" edge is actually pretty good (I would rank it higher than Chrome depending on my use-case)
@Aran-Fey heh...the fun thing to explain to people who have Windows XP to 7 is yes, it says your last update was on 5/15/2020. No that was not an update of the OS just your browser. Yes, Yes you still need to move off these old systems.
 
@LinkBerest Yeah. And after all the drama over SE Inc just doing stuff without keeping community in the loop...
 
If you want I could link to my comment on "did you even ask the mods?" or you could just see everyone elses (seriously, I mostly ignored "thank you" comments anymore - they were such a minor thing)
 
@LinkBerest No, anyone who wants to can read the MSO & MSE posts.
 
Clearly this feature was misguided but there are some potential gains from it worth investigating
 
not really
 
9:32 PM
I've always asked for better ranking on old posts (>60 days). I'd love for them to investigate. My meta answer was buried under a lot of other angry posts
 
you can just read through the post on why not (its been pretty clearly articulated) but basically - this is a terrible approach to fixing a problem that's not much of a problem
 
The migration to CommonMark is a good thing, and it appears to be proceeding smoothly, with only a few minor hiccups.
 
yea I was like second to post my opinions on that thread
 
and I'm dropping it at this point - not much point anyway, SE won't listen. Unless I can figure out a good haiku to post about it
 
@LinkBerest yup
 
9:36 PM
huh, good luck with that haiku
 
@LinkBerest I think the Reactions are silly, but they don't bother me much. The problem they're supposed to fix isn't the unwanted "thankyou" comments. It's newbies getting the feeling that we're a bunch of grouches for deleting their thankyou comments.
 
@cs95 fyi, I actually agree with your post that we need something to help with the skew in upvotes over time (how many sql injection answers would I love to move down the list) but don't see what it has to do with "thank you" (so didn't upvote or downvote)
 
We need placebo thanks that only shows up for the voter...
 
@PM2Ring ahh, now it makes a bit more sense. they didn't want to write that part in the MSO I assume ;)
 
@Arne Indeed. That'd imply that we're unwelcoming. ;)
 
9:40 PM
@PM2Ring definitely but read the blog that anounced this and that is not the impression it gives off as it seems to be pointing to the moderation reasons. Or just the dumping it and all the other un-announced changes on us made me read it in a bad light......either of these may be true
 
@AndrasDeak we need common sense, no? You could run a double-blind test and still come out with the same conclusion that you're not going to entertain the regulars
 
@PM2Ring well, we sure tricked 'em. Here we are, grouching to our heart's content
 
As I said, I basically give up on the "not making SO a social media page" and will just keep using my user scripts & blockers to force it to hide those things or just leave when it gets to the un-usable point. More surprising and jarring for me was the removal of "lack of research" from the downvote reason
 
@LinkBerest Sure. After all, low rep newbies can't comment anyway. But they can put "Thanks in advance" in their questions, and "I hope this helps" in their answers.
 
which points to the need to better educate the new posters on SE's model before their first post (which is a mine-field of opinions in and of itself and not something the community can do much about once again)
but yeah, on smaller sites I would comment and help OP change (meaning remove) the fluff in their post to fit on an SE site but with SO there are just too many so that doesn't scale (hopefully getting them to chat or a sandbox)
Also, I stop doing that after all the stuff that happened and most of the others I know of who did that stopped as well (what was the point) so .... shrug
 
9:50 PM
If my backend already logs print statements to log files, and it's not facing the user anyway. Is there a reason that I would benefit from migrating to a logging setup? All I can think of right now is seeing module specific logs
 
@LinkBerest the first post is critical. There's any number of scenarios that could lead up to it. Not insignificant is that they look at other questions. Most, I think, don't. They see it as a helpdesk
 
also, is there a way to avoid redundancy if I want to log what is being sent to the user? eg right now it is like
```
print('bla bla bla')
return 'bla bla bla'
```
 
@roganjosh 100% agree with that :)
 
especially in discord bots, where you want to log what you're sending to the channel. I was thinking maybe writing small wrapper functions that do both those things
 
I'm not following the premise of "Is there a reason that I would benefit from migrating to a logging setup?" btw
Are you asking whether you need to log things and not print them to console?
 
9:55 PM
no, like I should use import logging over regular print statements
 
You could write a function decorator that logs the return value
 
@aadibajpai assuming you mean write to a file (printing to stdout and redirecting is a bad idea): do you want (or think you will later need) to add context (severity, origin, timestamp, etc) and have better configuration controls?
 
@MisterMiyagi it didn't work by the way...
 
I love logging in Python (it is so much easier than Java and other languages I've used)
 
I'm still confused about the overall question but, having used Splunk in the past, logging is really important and it's a good idea to get a consistent format
Splunk without consistent formatting of logs makes kittens cry
 
10:00 PM
@aadibajpai Here is the decorator that Aran-Fey was talking about:
from functools import wraps

def logging_wrapper(fn):
    @wraps(fn)
    def _inner(*args, **kwargs):
        ret = fn(*args, **kwargs)
        if ret is not None:
            print(fn.__name__, ':', ret)
        return ret
    return _inner

@logging_wrapper
def my_func():
    return 'blah blah blah'

a = my_func()
prints my_func : blah blah blah
 
@LinkBerest on my backend, the print statements already go to a file, and with timestamps. The primary reason I am considering moving is basically to try it out, because I haven't really needed to use it till now
@PaulMcG ah I see, that looks useful.
 
until you try and parse your logs - then you will hate all inconsistences (or just read roganjosh's statement) so being able to consistently handle that "configuration" I was talking about will save you pulling your hair out
 
Don't just take this verbatim - you might want to print repr(ret) instead of ret, add other info besides the function name (timestamp? incoming args?)
 
what about non returned stuff. Eg in the discord example I was talking about, it goes like
```
await purge_channel.send(f"Going to sleep for {remaining} seconds.")
print(f"Going to sleep for {remaining} seconds.")
```
where the first line sends it to the channel and second prints it to the logs. For this probably just make a wrapper function?
 
Print out repr(ret) would be especially useful when a function returns "" - just printing the string will show nothing, but printing out the repr will show the string enclosed in quotes. Will also help you detect things like leading or trailing spaces, newlines, etc.
 
10:04 PM
@aadibajpai Yup, make a function that prints and sends
 
@roganjosh ah, it sounds like you've tried to parse the logs of a group where each team had its own (nearly the same but not quite) logging
 
@LinkBerest you raise an excellent point. For perusing my logs, I've sort of written a function that formats and posts the relevant info to a discord channel using webhooks. That way it is so much simpler to actually read it myself instead of scrolling through logs.
 
might be a use case for structlog (or so I've heard)
 
Is there a way to "collect" logs? As in group all the logs of a function call while also printing them? One way is to collect them in a list and then log that whole, but that would not preserve the timestamps of each individual line.
I'm actually pretty happy with the Discord webhooks thing because it's really user friendly to read. Like whenever I merge a PR and the backend deploys successfully, there's a notification with details, if no notification then I done goofed up somewhere and the deploy errored. Good way to not have to test it manually
 
...^ that is manual
automating git merges (well) is in my hard bucket though
 
10:12 PM
@LinkBerest Bad logging led to one of my questions. I was still using 2.7 then :/
 
how? I'm automatically getting a notification 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
That was taking data from Splunk, though
 
the automatic way (in a nutshell) would be: system recieves notification of failed merge -> system applies fixes based on some statistical level of success -> fail and notify admin (and rollback) <-> success and notify admin (so now I can check)
If your log cannot be easily parsed because of varying specfications used in building it that process is a nightmare (or any other automated process which relies on logs)
@roganjosh lol, yeah been there (never with Splunk, have been able to avoid that for better or worse) :)
 
@LinkBerest oh that's an awesome idea! I never thought beyond it because I haven't gotten an error since I implemented it so far
I especially want to do rollback in case of error because that way if an error happens it won't break down completely
 
user13682510
10:29 PM
cbg
 
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