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8:02 PM
@AndrasDeak In the off-chance that you haven't seen honey badgers before, I suggest you look them up. Nothing to do with honey :) A sweat name for the most ridiculously brave and smart creature going. There's a documentary of a South African sanctuary where they keep getting more and more ingenious in their escapes, using tools to build mounds etc
 
I'm aware, thanks
 
Ah sorry
 
actually, they do raid wild bee hives if they can, I think
which is to say I've seen at least one documentary displaying that behaviour, which might mean anything
 
They're in the realm in which anything can be attributed to them, so we'll default to "true" :)
 
@roganjosh Have you seen them go for honey? I think that's where they got their name.. from invading underground nests and getting stung 1 million times while going for the honey
 
8:04 PM
and not giving a yam in the meantime
 
hehehe exactly
 
Now that it's mentioned, I think I probably have. I think that was overwhelmed by the memory of watching a couple of them take on ~6 lions and just keep going
 
their face and fur coloration remind me of skunks
 
The ones in the sanctuary were really quite placid, I was impressed by them getting a shovel and propping it up against the wall to climb out. The day-to-day there was just trying to defeat every new escape attempt
 
^ Ah yeah, I've seen those escape videos, they're hilarious
 
8:09 PM
Ah, now I'm recalling, they climbed up each other to get an arm through some fencing and open the gate bolt on the outside. Interesting creatures. I don't think I've seen so much on wolverines even though they're related (IIRC) and they're bigger
 
@roganjosh that reminds me, similar videos have made me realize that pandas are amazingly smart, and merely very very lazy
 
Their diet probably hampered their evolution to make use of it. I imagine it was useful in some era and now just hold them back. I shall have to do some research
 
^^ which is a form of smart
 
@roganjosh for the record I meant videos of pandas trying to escape from zoos (after an earthquake) by climbing on one another's yamming backs!
 
But that has also reminded me that I have a physics-y question to also look up (I haven't attempted yet, so I'm curious if it's well known before I do). It's just started freezing overnight in the UK. Why is it that I have a disproportionate amount of frost on my windscreen in the morning when everywhere else is not frosty e.g. the pavement?
I would have thought that glass would be worse for nucleation than rough tarmac/brickwork
 
8:17 PM
Hmm, it's probably a known problem, I just don't know the answer. Might have to do with heat transfer coefficients (glass having better heat conductivity, presumably), or just that frost on the pavement is less visible than a layer of ice on your windscreen?
 
Brickwork I can live with, there'll be heat transfer from inside. But not the road. It has nowhere near as much ice as I've scraping off my windscreen
 
or perhaps wind is blocked near the ground so it doesn't get fresh humid air to freeze when there's a breeze?
plus I bet there's plenty of dirt on a windscreen to nucleate frost
 
@roganjosh it's probably the temperature difference between inside the car and outside that causes the frost to form more predominately on the windshield, as well as glass having many imperfections for frost to form on
 
@ballBreaker in what way? The car is out all night, it's pretty much in equilibrium
 
Yeah my guess would be the majority of the frost forms before the equilibrium is hit
 
8:20 PM
Dirt I'm not so sure... there's more ice on the windscreen than the roof of the car, for example, but they'd be exposed to pretty much the same environment
 
I wouldn't be surprised if condensation was a major contributing factor
 
Condensation is the factor, no?
 
Yeah, sorry, long day here
 
@ballBreaker but the car would be hotter than ambient, right? And hotter surfaces condense less.
 
@AndrasDeak seems a plausible assumption. I'm gonna mull over it for a little longer before I give in and start searching
 
8:24 PM
yeah, good luck, I'm curious to see what you can find
 
oh, hey roganjosh. An interesting article i read after our discussion earlier regarding loss vs metrics, you may find it interesting too. link
 
@AndrasDeak Right, yeah I was thinking about this, so if anything it would condense on the inside of the car, ya?
 
@ballBreaker yup
and the inside would indeed be more humid than outside
 
It doesn't discuss the same metrics that i myself need, but still i found it very useful in understanding my scenario fairly clearly.
 
that's why windshields get fogged up all the time when it's cold
 
8:25 PM
Yeah that makes sense
 
@ballBreaker Which it does. But airflow naturally means that there's more water vapour to be condensed on the outside of the windscreen (which is what I'm interested in) than on the inside (which does happen anyway but to a much lesser degree)
 
But don't let me distract you from fogging over your glasses
 
don't get me started on foggy glasses...
 
@ParitoshSingh ah, thanks :) I'll take a read shortly. A worthy distraction, I think :)
 
I'm thinking a plausible reason could be that the windshield of a car has the most imperfections in that area, more than the hood or the roof
 
8:27 PM
But not more than tarmac
 
sup folks
i believe the greeting was "cabbage"?
 
Ahh, sorry your original question was why more than other areas around it, not just areas on the car
 
Perhaps tarmac stores a lot of residual heat from sunlight even when it's cold outside, enough to keep it ahead of the windscreen
 
@ColdFire indeed, cbg
 
what you said
 
8:28 PM
yay~ i half remembered it
 
no, you remembered it perfectly :)
 
been a long while since i last came here
 
Living in Canada, we see that a lot, roads staying "dry" (I mean wet, just water wet, not snow wet, lol) while everywhere else is covered in snow
water wet.. lol
 
@roganjosh that could explain why hoarfrost forms on grass and not pavement
@ballBreaker "melt"? :P
 
@ballBreaker Err, but there's gritting, ploughs, attrition from tyres, car exhausts. I mean, that's not the best example
 
8:30 PM
@AndrasDeak hehe, so how are python folks doing?
 
I mean more when it snows, not when there is existing snow
 
@ColdFire I can only speak for myself, but I'm fine, thanks :D How are you?
 
Like the first snow of the year, the roads stay dry for weeks before they get cold enough to not instantly melt the snow
 
same goodie here
 
Sorry I'm horrible at explaining myself today
 
8:31 PM
:P
 
we're not fine dang it. We're trying to reason out why there's more snow on the windshield! This conversation is fascinating. But answers are needed! :P
 
@ColdFire glad to hear that :)
 
I'm interested to see what your research pulls up
 
Oh, stuff it. I'm gonna run to the shop and then I need to look this up
 
I bet you were onto something with the heat on roads though
 
8:33 PM
@AndrasDeak same, i see its the same usual business here in this room
 
well sometimes we talk about python... :P
 
I'm curious just how MUCH difference there is as well, like if you had a fence that has reached the equilibrium temperature of the environment, is there actually less frost than on the windshield? or is it just that you can't look through wood so you can't easily tell if there is as much
 
haha sounds the same as android room
 
What we need, rogan, is for you to get yourself a spare windshield, a car, a fence, and start producing some experiments
 
laurel
 
8:35 PM
I'm relying on the collective observations of people in this room that I'm not going mad and there really is more ice on glass surfaces of cars than the surroundings. That's science, right?
 
yep. start with a view, only interact with people who agree.
something like that
 
It's hard in Canada because there is such a small window of time between frost accumulating overnight and everything being so covered in snow you can't tell just how frosty something is
 
Now I'm wondering whether glass is better for nucleation. But, that would only satisfy the first layer in contact with the glass - after that, it's the same for everyone
@ParitoshSingh welcome to co-authorship of my paper
 
@ParitoshSingh LOL
 
@roganjosh maybe but not certainly
confirmation bias is tough
 
8:38 PM
<-- was joking. But still listing Paritosh as co-author
 
sweet!
 
can you put down my cat, Jabroni, as well please?
He has yet to co-author a paper
 
Only if you measure his footprint depth on different surfaces in equilibrium to see whether it's significantly different on the windscreen
 
The real question is, is Jabroni's last name schrodinger or not.
 
@roganjosh relevant
 
8:41 PM
damn, blocked by my web filter
 
agree with the caption :)
 
Case. Closed. Well, I guess that's enough evidence for all of us, we can go about our day happy now.
(begins research montage, I fear this will be tricky to get a proper answer)
 
@ballBreaker there you go
@roganjosh Kevin's 5 PhD students might be able to help you
 
Are they spare now? It seemed a roller coaster of whether they had to unzip a file or do more, I don't know how it was left
 
They've got to sleep sometime. Then's your chance to utilize them.
 
8:43 PM
Oh, excellent! If you calculate the man-hours lost to people defrosting cars, this more-than-covers their expense
 
@AndrasDeak omg :3
 
Oh gosh, there's a news article opening with the same question :/ Perhaps it's not so profound here. I've yet to read on
 
"So, the coldest air is on the ground...(snip)...so the air temperature may actually be a few degrees above freezing, while the ground temperature is at 32 degrees." - I spent a good 32 seconds of my life trying to figure out why that statement made no sense to me. Then i realised, this is probably not Celsius.
 
"Since your car is made of materials that release that heat more quickly, the temperature of your windshield may drop to 32 degrees or below faster than its surroundings. This is also why frost can form on your windshield even when the air temperature is above freezing." non sequitur
That suggests that the windscreen drops below ambient temperature. Nice try, fake news
 
@roganjosh radiative cooling? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
8:51 PM
I did have my pollen filter changed a month ago, I wonder if it pulls a vacuum now
@AndrasDeak Seems it really is. I must say that I'm amazed by that
 
@roganjosh I'm not terribly surprised, because that's why cloudy nights are warmer than nights with a clear starry sky
 
So the absence of ice on the surroundings will be due to a much larger heat well
 
What you can do to test, is tomorrow morning when there is frost on your windshield.. Get a pot of boiling water and throw it on the windshield and see what happens
 
Sure, but several degrees against the surroundings is pretty huge
@ballBreaker kaboom?
 
hehe, yeah basically
There was a spree of fake, almost-real-sounding advice circulating on facebook, and that was one of the tips to "speed up defrosting"
There were many many many shattered windshields being reported
 
9:00 PM
Well, that's Darwinism in the new age
Most of the responses were probably fake because there's agency in "I'm thick, me. Come watch the stupid things I do. Hurr durr"
 
hahaha yeah likely
There were some photos of the damage, which were endlessly entertaining
 
@ParitoshSingh I'm curious what you took from that?
It's a bit wishy-washy to me, did you get clarity on your specific problem (I remember discussing it, but not the specifics)
 
I suppose it is, honestly didn't find anything that went more in depth on the matter. But What I took from it was that in some cases, the loss and metrics can show differing trends, and with good reason
 
Could you identify why that happened in your specific problem?
(I'm not really in this side of "DS" so I'm just generally curious)
 
So, with the loss, the way i see that article state it, my model was "making bolder predictions" for everything
Essentially, call it overfitting, but i think that's a bit rash at that stage.
Now, what that implied was that there were higher penalties for getting things wrong. So, the loss could increase that way on unseen data, as my model got more confident but got something wrong.
On the flip side, there's an absolutely horrid class imbalance, that the metric essentially "favours" getting every class correct, not caring for raw numbers
To me, this is where i'd have to handwave a couple things away, or start guessing. Essentially, why was the metric so stable at improving till 6th epoch, before becoming unstable is still a puzzle
But i think, a major takeaway for me was, that the metric really is your tool for evaluation
 
9:17 PM
@ParitoshSingh What is "correct" in relation to raw numbers?
 
(barring the ideal scenario where you can get a loss to perfectly coincide with your metric)
 
I've followed what you've said except that point
 
@roganjosh in the sense that, macro f1 average scores will say: you need to get every class predicted with a good f1 score. Getting the majority class alone with a good f1 is no bueno
 
Right, ok, thanks :)
 
So, there's an extremely high amount of data points in the majority class, which is actually the class im least interested in. Hence, if the model starts getting some of them wrong, the loss will increase. But if getting a few of that class wrong meant that more of the minority classes were getting due corrections, then it's good for me overall.
My metric can show that, the loss cannot quite capture that.
 
9:20 PM
It almost seems like you just want to identify outliers?
 
I suppose, while it may technically be not correct, you can actually think of it that way too.
 
What's the technicality?
 
With nlp, or ner specifically, theres a few entities in every document that you're interested in. everything else is "noise" for you
But that doesn't quite mean that the entities are outliers, in the traditional sense of the word.
 
Aha, now it comes back to me. I know yam-all about nlp in a serious context
 
Honestly, same here. haha
But yeah, the main takeaway really is, there's semantic meanings in the words, and very specifically the sequences that the model needs to somehow learn. The more the distinct "types of entities" aka classes, the tougher the task for a model
And all classes will have pretty poor imbalance amongst themselves, but everything is overshadowed by the "noise/other" class
In this case, it really falls to your metrics to be good.
 
9:27 PM
Yeah. I remember suggesting it sounded like overfitting and Arne saying something like "it sounds exactly like overfitting" but I forgot the context. IIRC it's a topic he's worked on so he might have some insight on that now you've considered it a bit more, but I certainly don't :/ Still, that article + your interpretation of it with your problem is interesting for me, thanks mate
 
Call it a work in progress. If i come back a few days later profusely apologising for spreading misinformation, you've been warned in advance. :P
 
Hey, I just called "fake news" on an article that was tenuously correct. I'm not in a seat to judge right now :P
 
 
2 hours later…
11:36 PM
Current status: hacking numpy's distutils stuff to get around a weird thread limit on the cluster
 
11:53 PM
Updated to "compiling GNU assembler from source". Time to call it a day I guess.
 

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