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15:00
if the room falls in 3 years, we'll just retitle Antti&idjaw's book to "It's soooooo python!"
There's a photobucket link on the starboard... what_year_is_it.jpg
Here's the classic Pickover shell. FWIW, the POV-Ray source code for this is just a couple of lines.
@KevinMGranger actually two of them, but I can't unstar the earlier one
We now have until just after Python 2 goes EOL. So if the apocalypse happens as some predict, I won't have overspent.
@PM2Ring I like snails (though mostly alive ones)
15:01
@davidism I can't promise a complete embargo on madness, but I can limit it to mere malicious eccentricity
HAL 9000 < Kevin < Skynet
I suppose that will have to do. No more than three minions per year though, ok?
Basically I'll just issue ridiculous dictates like "no hats on thursdays" instead of ordering attacks on neighboring countries
POV-Ray SDL is a full programming language as well as being a Scene Description Language, so it's easy to generate stuff algorithmically. But the DKBTrace language was just a SDL, so we had to use scripting languages or C or Basic programs to build SDL files for stuff like the Pickover shell.
15:05
@davidism <3
Violators of the "no hats" rule will be forced to wear a hat, in the ultimate poetic justice.
The input files for DKBTrace had a .dat extension (an abbreviation for "data"). It used a simple custom format for the 24 bit output; those files had a .dis extension. So you built .dis from .dat :)
@davidism Anywhere we can fire donations your way?
morning everyone
15:12
Why do all blog posts about a product being acquired start with something like “we’re excited to announce that we got acquired”? Most things like that turn out terrible for the project afterwards :/
Bad news for trello users....
@poke cause the people who make the decision on acquiring things, aren't usually the ones who have to work directly with the newly acquired things. They are generally made for just the pure cash or PR move ...
included myself...
I mean Atlassian is a great company but we all know how these acquisitions usually work out :S
Atlassian is fine, but Trello is not very aligned with them I may say
so I don't really see how the puzzle would be solved in benefit of the tool
15:15
my company uses atlassian's soucreTree, I find it rather annoying to use at times lol
> Cataloging the thrilling opportunities start-ups are offered when their incredible journey continues by being bought by an exciting company. However, as a user of the start-up’s service, your own incredible journey must end, because all of your photos and writing and checkins and messages and relationships must now be deleted.
git graphical tools kinda sucks hahaha
\o marcus
how goes it
@Kevin Meh
15:17
@ToloPalmer All I use is pull, pull commit on the graphic, the rest of the buttons, bells and whistle, I have zero clue on what it does or how to use it
@MooingRawr hahaha I rather use git pull instead, love git though
I had to use so many things, and buy git more than anything I had tried so far
ive never used git , and im kinda scared that atlassian's GUI git is changing my view on git systems in general... I need to try git as a core at home before I git(get) into a bad mind set.
No worries I would say, whenever you need to use it, for storing historical or team work, you will pick it up easy
I still checking git docs quite regular, as some commands u only use once a month, but you know it must be something that does that thing
there's this cool older dude (i think hes mid 40s maybe early 50s) who is the lead QA-er, super nice and what not.... good role model and he just came back and his whole QA team is happy to see him. now that's a man people should follow..
hey guys, I'm trying to use re.match to see if a string has any special characters or whitespace in it (bar _ or -, which are ok), would this be correct? r'^\w\-_+'
15:24
@IntrepidBrit thanks for the offer, I'll think about adding a donation link to the site footer
@Jfach regex101.com try this site (select python for better looking things)
Niiice
thanks
@Jfach Lazy solution: if special_character_set.intersection(my_string): print("string contains special character")
guys. There are so many good movies coming out this year
On a related note, my WebFaction account is ending soon. Their new plans don't have bulk discounts, are less powerful than an equivalent cost Linode, and their old plans are stuck on Centos 6 forever.
15:27
@corvid 'Your Name' is coming out to EU and NA, super hype about that, but what other movies are there ?
nevermind, misunderstood the specification
So if anyone has a suggestion that's cheaper than Linode and offers full SSH access, speak now.
and too lazy to do it right the second time:P
@MooingRawr Kimi no wa?
@corvid yes... loosely translated to 'Your Name'
15:29
I heard that one is super good, excited for that one. Logan looks interesting, I saw Silence yesterday and it was... something...
When is star wars 8 coming out ?
dec 2017
Eh, the new star wars movies suck. Now that they're a yearly release they're almost certainly going to be stale quickly
I wonder how they will deal with princess ><
@corvid WHAT?! you didn't like Rouge One or Star Wars 7?
@MooingRawr have you read the git parable yet?
@MooingRawr intentional typo?:P
15:32
Star wars VII I thought was awful. Rogue one was alright, but nothing special.
@AndrasDeak yes i read it, it was rather insightful.
I need to find Wayne and thank him for linking me it, I forgot about it until now. thanks for reminding me lol
That parable is great -- IMO a lot of complicated subjects would benefit from that approach
meh, I've got a bit of a temperature:/
15:35
@AndrasDeak you okie ?
might or might not be related to the fact that it's been <-10 degrees celsius for days, and our apartment has shitty heating and virtually no thermal insulation
@MooingRawr yeah, no biggie yet, thanks for asking. I've got a bit of a cough which made me take my temp
DSM
DSM
Midmorning cabbage for all.
\o DSM cbg how goes it
doing Python at work, doing Python at home
fun fun fun
15:37
I only do it at home:(
except post-processing
DSM
DSM
Today I'm at home, doing Python for work. Not bad for a Monday.
sounds good:)
What was that $5/month hosting plan that was using AWS? Basically a 1/2 Linode plan.
I am writing a web app and in turn I already thought about 2 useful libraries that I can scrape from it. The problem is, I won't finish my initial web app if I decide to write those libs
I think that's actually equivalent to what I'm getting now on WebFaction, so I might switch to that instead of Linode.
15:40
@khajvah just scrap it
DSM
DSM
@khajvah: completing things is underrated. (As my long list of incomplete projects always reminds me.)
yeah
disadvantages of personal projects
@AndrasDeak you c# at work ?
@MooingRawr heh, no
fortran
15:43
mostly use, occasionally develop
do you do science?
@AndrasDeak woah.... #respect4mathMan
@khajvah yup:)
nice
I would do science too if I didn't get an early web dev job
@AndrasDeak sorry for prying, but are you a prof by any chance ( researcher / teacher at a university ) ?
15:44
and didn't get drunk every day at school
and wasn't lazy
@MooingRawr postdoc:) In physics
DSM
DSM
Weren't we all physics postdocs once? ;-)
= research and teach at university
@DSM only some of us:P
Sometimes I feel like I suit JavaScript room more
If MWI is true, then yes, all of us
15:46
@AndrasDeak my man.... I wanted to get my master in info security, If I didn't land my current job >.> I was debating if getting masters and PhD would do me any good (other than throwing me deeper in debt)
@khajvah what kind language/framework do you dev with?
@MooingRawr Python
@MarcusS mwi?
oooh, I see
JS in a month(switching jobs)
Django at work, Tornado at home
DSM
DSM
Fizzy fell in love with JS and now we never see him any more, but he's still welcome here. So even if you leave you can still visit..
I don't like JS room
plus I have to say "hello" instead of "cbg"
15:48
I'm so lucky that I get to do python at work
@MooingRawr our IT students have the same thing. They can choose between taking their bachelor's degree and get a job and earn a buttload of money, or take several more years for a master's and earn the same amount of money afterwards (and even more so for PhD)
@khajvah Is it because I'm there that you don't like it? :(
@DSM I thought it was civ vi that did in for Fizzy
DSM
DSM
Unless you're going into academe or formal research I doubt a PhD in most computer fields is useful. (Career-wise, I mean.)
15:50
@Gemtastic I don't remember what happened
hold on
is the JS room new?
To all you lucky snek lovers, I envy you for being about to turn Python code into money ><
@MooingRawr what do you turn into money?
@DSM that's what I feared. I wanted to get into info secruity, but must job wanted a master in it (from what I saw)
DSM
DSM
Some days it feels more like I turn going to meetings into money, and Python code is just what I do to pass the time between meetings.
@khajvah I'm an application developer using my company's proprietary code and c#
15:52
oh so you have to use Windows
that's bad
DSM
DSM
I've done C# on 'nix.
@AndrasDeak I am jelly :( my school basically said if you want to go into master ( you might be lucky and a teacher will hire you as a TA but we won't provide anything so you will have to go find your side job yourself.
Turning Python into Money:
Python
Pytohn
Pytonh
Pyotnh
Pyonth
Poynth
Ponyth
Pontyh
Ponthy
Monthy
Monehy
Money
6
@khajvah I actually dont mind windows, I've been on it all my life, so I'm use to it. Linux is still new and shiny to me ( still cant decide on which linux to use on my laptop to play around with) I've only used linux in school...
@MooingRawr Antegros
15:54
The real money is in PHP. At leas I assume that's why you see $ everywhere in PHP code.
7
What I do hate is my company uses Visual studio and decided to slap 34+ solutions into the same file >.> takes me roughtly 15 minutes to load the stupid file and another 10 minutes to compile >.>
@MooingRawr Arch will learn you quick
@KevinMGranger jQuery
@KevinMGranger elgiggle
maketrans("python", "moneyz")
15:56
@poke Monthy Pton
@poke I love how that used Monty as a waypoint!
and this is why i still haven't done anything . Every time I sit down to look up linux versions and what not, everyone has a different opinion (which is okie) but it makes me indecisive
DSM
DSM
I can't find a single six-letter word which differs from Python in only one place. My best is "mythos", which is two.
@MartijnPieters I’m really happy it turned out like that as well
@DSM typhoon
15:57
@poke you could drop the h at that point, instead of in the next step.
oops, too many
DSM
DSM
Yeah, but that's still an interesting direction-- allow add/remove + shuffle.
@Martijn Yeah, I know but I didn’t want to drop characters until the very end. Unfortunate side effect of my implementation detail
Hmm, both Lightsail and DigitalOcean offer $5/month plans.
@MooingRawr just choose a random one. It doesn't really matter when ytou are new
DSM
DSM
15:58
@davidism: I use one of the DO 5$ plans.
heh I googled Lightsail, and got some space project.... it was pretty cool...
@AndrasDeak As a physics lover, when do you think quantum computers will become main stream, if at all?
@MooingRawr here it's mostly the same: you can help out in one or two tutorial classes during your master's, but that's insignificant. Even PhD is historically and ridiculously underpaid (as well as most of academia) compared to actual jobs
@MooingRawr not my area of expertise, and I've heard both "10 years" and "never. ever. ever." from people whose it is
@AndrasDeak oh what do you focus on ? I just generally assumed you were into quantum physic for some reason , sorry
I lump it in with fusion -- always 50 years from now
Sounds like nuclear fusion
Ahh - jinx
16:05
@MooingRawr I am;)
off topic, how are you suppose to handle 'Fastest Gun in the West' issue. Where someone is answering a very vague way of solving OP's problem, and then saying he will post code in a bit.
@MooingRawr you won't like it: downvote if it's a crappy answer
downvote
@AndrasDeak oh.... lol .... well...... you are and you aren't I guess i shouldn't have judged
> Simply you just need to create a first column containing the date (expressed as the day) and do a groupby + aggregate.

I'll post code asap :)
is this a bad answer to downvote ?
snarky comment, DO IT NOW
"how about waiting until you post a full answer", -1
16:07
too bad, they just added the code
eh I'ma go make a cup of tea, rbrb
Yeah - looks like a good opportunity to exercise coercion and downvoting to me.
Snark opportunity missed. The hunting of the snark must continue.
Another day, another time I wish for a for…not-else loop construct…
for not-else?
I've wished for it too during AoC
16:09
code that executes only if you break the for loop?
@MarcusS for -> if_was_broken:
yup
@MooingRawr so I'm into computational magnetism, which is pretty quantum physics, but has little to do with quantum computation (well, spintronics is a huge thing nowadays, but still)
the trick is that "quantum physics" is a very broad subject
Can't you just put some code before the break then?
Depends on the situation but I saved myself from a lot of those situations by using any() and all()
16:10
@Kevin broken = True #...
@AndrasDeak oh so I can put my money on you on finding a mono pole ;3 ? and I will take time off to come see you accept the nobel prize ?
@MooingRawr now that I don't expect to happen
for a in b:
    if c:
        break
not_else:
    d()

#is equivalent to

for a in b:
    if c:
        d()
        break
... Right?
not in solid state physics, anyway
@AndrasDeak hey man..... we need to put our faith in somewhere, and why not put our faith in science?
16:11
our reasonable neighbourhood in the universe doesn't seem to support proper magnetic monopoles yet (maybe in a future patch)
@MooingRawr so many reasons:P
@Kevin You actually might be right here.
just gotta : from __future__ import Monopole
@Kevin you're technically correct, the best kind of correct.
@Kevin please break out of an enclosing for loop at d() for me, please;)
@Andras Oh yeah! Good point.
that's how I wanted to use that
16:15
@AndrasDeak I actually remember the first day of learning about monopoles... in class... I spend the rest of the day sawing magnets in different lengths, till one of the pieces lost it's magnetic strength and I thought I had achieved it, proudly presenting a piece of metal to my teacher and he couldn't contain his laughter....
looking back on it was pretty stupidly funny
I'm reluctant to shove it in a try-raise-except BreakOutOfLoop: block
Cbg :)
\o cbg Ian how goes it
@MooingRawr hehe, I can't see why:D
wim
wim
16:17
@Kevin yes, looks so.
question, if you are standing dead set on south pole ( magnetic south since actual south pole isn't the true south I think or which ever is true south) is any direction you head or move towards north ?
wim
wim
@Kevin my trick for remembering what else does on a loop is to think of how it works on a while loop instead
@MooingRawr not a physics question, but yes
wim
wim
i.e. the while loop can terminates on failure of a condition, so the else part is just like the else in a conditional statement
ideally, the induction lines are perpendicular to the surface, so you're moving neither towards north or south
16:18
where am I moving towards then o.o
wim
wim
before I realised that equivalence, I was forgetting all the time whether else on for-loop was like else or not else
@MooingRawr geographically: north
north pole is where induction lines emanate, south pole is where they enter the surface. If you're moving perpendicular to the force lines, you're moving perpendicular to the S-N line, so you're not moving in either directin
@AndrasDeak I can't.
:(
thanks for trying, though
i just remember that line from ferngully ("no breaakkkksssssss...")
16:22
Kevin can you do a fancy image of a magnet lines in 3d space ?
DSM
DSM
I'm remotely attending a meeting on governance process and we've spent the last ten minutes talking about how small the slides appear. #productive
tell them it was prepared using a microsoft program
or that it's compressed for storage considerations
I am arguing that Python isn't a good first language
am I doing it right?
It's all fun and games feeding false information to non-techies until a month later when they get in a huge row with the printing company for insisting that a 100x100 pixel proof image is the industry standard and why can't you use it to print a nine foot square high-resolution poster?
16:32
you just need to enhance it
Okay stupid question: what is the math course/path of math courses that is generally used for applying skews, rotations, translates, etc to shapes? trig -> calc -> linear algebra?
"It's not small, it's just compressed! DSM told me so. Here, I'll put him on and he'll set you straight"
I just want a rudimentary ability to understand it a bit more
@corvid I'd say trigonometry and linear algebra
dunno what "calc" would mean there
mostly linear algebra, though
linear maps in 2d space, to be specific
@AndrasDeak calculus
16:34
yeah, linear algebra mostly
I thought you needed calculus to understand linear algebra?
trigonometry comes around here and there
@corvid I remember learning about stretching in regular algebra. "g(x) = 2*f(x) gives you a y-stretched version of f, g(x) = f(2*x) gives you an x-stretched version"
tbh I mostly just have zero clue how to "apply" matrices to 2d shapes in such a way as to skew/translate/rotate them to my preference
what do you people call calculus?:P
16:35
@corvid depends on what level you are
"g(x) = a+f(x+b) gives you a version of f translated by a and b"
you don't necessarily need a massive calc background to get into linear algebra
@corvid you need to understand how 2d matrices and their eigenvectors/eigenvalues work
(plus translation, but that's simple)
@khajvah I'm pretty bad at math, totally my weakness. Only got through like calc II at school, barely, and don't remember any of it
I don't think you need calculus
16:36
I don't remember what an eigenvector is but I still used matrix transformations in my raytracing program :3
I'm guessing it has something to do with the fact that all the matrices had 4 rows even though space only has 3 dimensions. That mysterious "W" component...
@Kevin right, you don't necessarily need that, I just suspect that you might need that to fabricate your own transformations
now, to apply a given transformation, you only need a trained chimp
W is the placeholder row where the higgs boson would normally go
I wish I understood how "perspective" matrices work
DSM
DSM
They're the special directions where if a vector points there, the matrix won't repoint the vector.
Projective geometry & 4D homogeneous coordinates FTW
16:37
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… Homogeneous coordinates are ubiquitous in computer graphics because they allow common vector operations such as translation, rotation, scaling and perspective projection to be represented as a matrix by which the vector is multiplied.
sorry, wrong room
Weird, this is the second time that an edit I made to my message didn't go through until the second time I pressed "send". I don't like this trend.
@Kevin happens to me weekly
usually if I edit too fast
Especially since it looks like the first edit goes through and I can only tell the difference if I actually read my post again, and who's got time for that?
16:39
ain't nobody
By the chain rule, any sequence of such operations can be multiplied out into a single matrix, allowing simple and efficient processing. By contrast, using Cartesian coordinates, translations and perspective projection cannot be expressed as matrix multiplications, though other operations can. Modern OpenGL and Direct3D graphics cards take advantage of homogeneous coordinates to implement a vertex shader efficiently using vector processors with 4-element registers.[19][20]
I dream in cabbage
hello cabbagites
I am starting to think that C is the best language to teach to CS freshmen
Do androids dream of electric cabbages?
Nah, PHP is the best
16:41
we're just not worthy of PHP. That's we settle for Python
@PM2Ring The Electric Cabbage! I think we found our band name
:)
\o cbg Joe how goes it
PHP has two "P"s, Python has only one
boom
@khajvah No. Teach them to program first before you inflict pointers on them.
oh. @PM2Ring You *have* to listen to this guitarist's skill. It's beautiful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaI6p1Mc3wo
I don't know why that question always has to cater to one language
16:42
@PM2Ring You can't teach them to program in a year
IMO why not teach a small mix of languages to introduce different concepts
I have an opinion but I don't count, having not learned programming when I was supposed to
@AndrasDeak you always count to me <3
@idjaw Wow!
yup!
16:44
is there any unspoken rules about "referring" a friend for a position somewhere in the company you are working for? So I've been at this company for 5 months, and my friend saw a position in the business department (not in the same department as me) and applied to it online. He asked if I could follow up with HR, maybe put in a good word for him. I don't know his work habits since I haven't worked with him before so on a business aspect: unknown, but on a personal lvl: I would think he would fit
what would you do ( oh and HR didn't put their contact info on the job positing)
If you want to properly hook a new coder, you have to give them a taste of the unlimited cosmic potential of programming in the first week of instruction, and you can't do that if it takes four weeks to get to projects that do more than print text to the console
I don't get how it works. Is there a different operation, but the same "format" of matrix for rotation, skew, and translate?
That's how you get users with a week and a half of experience coming to SO with questions about their rat's nest of a text adventure
get ye flask
@corvid The operation is the same: matrix multiplication. The difference is what you're multiplying by.
16:47
@PM2Ring I mean, before they learn programming, it's already time to graduate (assuming they started programming in their first year of uni)
DSM
DSM
IIRC poke once forwarded an argument for using JS as the beginner language precisely so that students could start doing things like graphics and music and interactivity ASAP.
JavaScript is a pretty bad beginner's programming language IMHO... if you want to interact with the DOM you should really understand how a tree works beforehand
For example, compare the matrices used by glRotate and glTranslate. Same operation, same dimensions, different numbers.
@corvid a matrix of [[a,0],[0,b]] will stretch space with a and b along x and y, respectively
[[c,-s],[s,c]] will rotate 2d space around the origin with angle phi in case c=cos(phi) and s=sin(phi) (i.e. c^2+s^2==1)
[[1,0],[0,0]] will project every point to the x axis orthogonally
first one made sense then you lost me
16:52
you need to check out how matrix-vector products work
the second one needs trigonometry
the first and third ones are the easiest
helps to remember that these are just systems of equations
you can put whatever you want in them
[[1,0],[0,0]] acting on [[x],[y]] will give you [[x],[0]], i.e. the vector along the x axis that has the same x value as the original vector, i.e. the orthogonal projection of (x,y) to the x axis
Is it possible to find out what particular answer you gave where you lose your rep because the user was removed?
@idjaw nope
All we get is the -10 and "user removed"
ah.
16:54
yup
Thanks @AndrasDeak
only staff can see votes, and only under special and well-documented circumstances
I mean, the looking-at-votes action itself is thoroughly logged
they don't usually do that
BAHHH
was literally drawing that
oh well XD ninja'd
it's sort of canonical;)
still fun
17:01
anyway, @corvid ------------^
@MarcusS I actually taught that to freshmen this fall
it was fun;)
@PM2Ring I killed a crappy try of mine for a project euler challenge, it uses lru_cache for prime testing
CacheInfo(hits=1908411065, misses=27977, maxsize=None, currsize=27977)
I think trig is a hard subject for most because a lot of it is just not easy to derive on your own
yeah, it's full of "notice that..."
yeah
17:04
it helps with the identities and some of these problems when they tell you about complex numbers:)
@AndrasDeak Well, at least your hits / misses ratio is good. :)
yup, I'm very happy with it
I have to rewrite the whole attempt from scratch, though, but this small part works as expected:D
Too many things to learn, too little time to do it all :|
i wish the hyperbolic time chamber were a real thing D:
go to work, come home, spend a year learning number theory / linalg, go to work the next day...
OK, had a few replies on the import thing as _thing issue - you cvan follow the thread at mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2017-January/147129.html
17:10
cbg
So you could learn the Kamekameha wave?
The most interesting to me personally was Guido's reply: "I would focus on changing habits to discourage "import *" rather than uglifying all new code with this "os as _os" pattern. Very occasionally one designs a module to explicitly support "import *", and that usually entails using all (like it or not), making the problem go away without uglifying the code."
@holdenweb interesting, thanks
I didn't know about __all__ and that import * ignores "private" stuff
wim
wim
@AndrasDeak you might enjoy this book github.com/rougier/from-python-to-numpy/blob/master/…
Feeling very discouraged with my bug report... This guy thinks it's a color map issue even though one of my test cases only contains 3 colors, which is 253 fewer than the maximum number of colors a gif can represent per-frame.
17:23
@AndrasDeak I might wish that all imports ignored "private" stuff, but that horse left the stable decades ago, I s'pose
17:34
how can you make a cv pls tag?
[tag:cv-pls]
@wim oooh, looks like it, thank you!
@wim found this too by the same author
17:51
@vaultah tnx

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