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19:00
election closing tomorrow means today is last day?
or is tomorrow last day
closes tomorrow at 8pm here
@JonClements here must be a nice timezone ;3
it's the puppycentric world view
puppytime is always UTC. Always.
@idjaw I had seen that before. The sweary bit always put me off, though I do see it's got an alias
19:11
@WayneWerner yeah. Feel free to change it to anything else. Like doh
hmm doh works
crumbs is a a fun one, from The Epiplecitc Bicycle, by Edward Gorey
Which one is better to use Python or Java for develop Spark stream?
better define better....
If you like braces, Java is better
I don't know much about Spark. And by not much, nothing at all beyond what I found here: ibmbigdatahub.com/blog/who-uses-spark-and-why
19:19
In term of Performance, coding, deployment
it has all the braces
Python has none of the braces
Python 3.5.2 (default, Jun 28 2016, 08:46:01)
[GCC 6.1.1 20160602] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> from __future__ import braces
  File "<stdin>", line 1
SyntaxError: not a chance
@PM2Ring ah shared wrong link (yet again)
See? None of the braces.
Sneks are the best. All the sneks
@VimalDhaduk what do you mean by coding and deployment better? lol those are opinion based.... as for your performance..... time to bench mark ?
19:22
There are opinions and arguments for any of the things you listed @VimalDhaduk
Yes..Specially Performance...
fortran's fast
does that help?
@AndrasDeak: I have only two option Java and Python
Let's take more specific how Python is powerful(in term of Performance) to make spark job?
how is that more specific?
@AndrasDeak Is it light weight than Java?
19:26
I really don't know what to say
>>> 'java' < 'python'
True
that's a plus for python
Python is the lightest weight. Unless you want more weight, then python has all the weight
My approach to Python - do it in Python first. Then if it isn't fast enough, do it a different way.
@WayneWerner how in the case of Spark job?
wim
wim
Do it in C first, if that isn't slow enough then try Python
We don't just have mounds of benchmark data specifically comparing Python Spark projects to Java Spark projects.
>>> 'java' < 'Python'
False
19:28
I don't know anything about spark, but I'm almost positive that whatever you're doing with Spark is just controlling Spark, so Python doesn't really affect the speed at all
@AndrasDeak ;)
>>> 'Java' < 'Python'
True
>>> 'sneks' > 'beans'
True
you're using the wrong version, probably
19:29
@WayneWerner waht's this snek meme now
don't tread on snek
wim
wim
A: Knock knock
B: Who's there?





(long pause)





A: ... Java
Also, if anyone can actually explain what a bean is and how they work? Well, I actually don't care anymore, but if I ever have to work in a sweatshop write Java again, I'll probably be confused by that some more
@wim "btw just collected your garbage..."
Congrats on 80k @wim :)
19:31
@WayneWerner beans are the fruit of certain plants, you put it in the ground and it sprouts a new plant
Fabales, google tells me:P
wim
wim
@BhargavRao ehh, thanks, but it's all the same after 25k ...
@WayneWerner a bean is a class that has no-arg constructor, public getters/setters, private data, serializable, that's it.
@wim 35.
@WayneWerner I don't know if you were serious so: stackoverflow.com/questions/3295496/what-is-a-javabean-exactly
(10 more delves)
19:33
@idjaw well, 100k and 250k are there for swag ;) ... Nevertheless 80k is an achievement too :)
user image
3
^ that one seemed more appropriate for the room
I don't know who that meme guy is but that's delightful
@idjaw Okay... so... I'm about 100% sure that's not even close to what the one framework I was using was talking about when they were talking beans.... but maybe
there was so much XML involved.
Stock photo meme guy's name is "Harold", apparently.
wim
wim
oh, delete votes are increasing up to 35k. did not know that.
19:35
S̠̞o͝ ̝̘̝̦͠m̶̖̗̰̹̙u̼c̞̻̟̗̺͇͚͝h̷̭̰̪̖̫ ̡X̱̻̭͖͇ͅM̲͖̹L̢̜̹̳
@WayneWerner it is because you can use the XML to construct beans...
The horrors
The meme itself is "green de la bean", in which green beans invade every part of your life. But you also need to make sure to "do a flicc" to make sure the bean is not actually a "snecc". There are those who are great at such "fliccing" like "Ben Aflicc"
... Or possibly András Arató depending on who you ask
the reason is because it is easier to write xml tahn java code
wim
wim
19:36
can't imagine using 35 delete votes in a day, I only see maybe 1 or 2 things so bad they should be deleted in a day
@wim stackoverflow.com/tools <- easy
go there and vomit
lots of typo questions and such answered with upvotes, ah the joy of nullifying that rep.
@Kevin OH MY GOD THAT'S IT!
I didn't realize that's where I knew him from:D
wim
wim
meh, sounds like a waste of time to me
@AndrasDeak Ah, you met him at the Global Consortium of Andrasses, I gather.
no wait, that's not him
wim
wim
19:38
Use delete votes for stuff that is dangerously incorrect , and can't be edited into shape.
First order of business: do we really want our plural to be "Andrasses"?
wim
wim
Crap can be ignored, edited, or downvoted
@wim Delete useless crap also.
@KevinMGranger coffee in nose. thanks..
19:40
he was in a TV show and somehow spawned a meme when the "-- I like milk a lot." "-- Really? And cocoa?" "-- That too." exchange took place
wim
wim
I don't care if the garbage hangs around
Hmm, I don't know that one.
I'm batting 0/2 in meme knowledge today. First beans now this
it's a Hungarian one...
wim
wim
SO is like one of those cities built on top of a thick layer of garbage
so not your fault
wim
wim
19:41
it's only the dangerous stuff in the garbage you need to worry about cleaning up ..
wim
wim
the secret to happiness here is just to ignore the garbage ..
but there are cocroaches feeding on the garbage
and build houses on top of it
you open the cupboard and they just swarm out
and demand their share of the bread
19:43
Fun fact: when a cockroach touches a human, the cockroach will flee to a secluded area to clean itself. They think we're filthy.
I know it's true because I read it on the Internet.
Fun fact: ants who eat cockroaches are not recognized by other members of their colony. Also read on the internet
What about ants that eat dead dogs?
the whole dog?
what kind of monster ants do you deal with?
aussie ants
There might be a lot of ants.
19:48
I suspect an ant could eat a dog given enough time. How long do ants live?
@Kevin not long enough
considering the ratio of their body weights, I find it unlikely that an ant could eat a dog
Let's say the dog is 15 pounds and the ant eats a gram of food per day. Then it will take... 20 years or so.
ant lives 1-3 years...
not a dog
19:51
or less...
dogs weigh double that
Erm, Just increase the number of ants.
The amount an ant will eat will vary from species to species, but the average ant consumes approximately 1-2 miligrams of food per day
@Kevin *milligramms
Being off by half is pretty good when you're doing a fermi estimate.
19:52
chihuahua, (which is a rat, not a dog) weighs 1.5 - 3 kg
@AnttiHaapala Man, I didn't know about that... hitting my delete vote cap, here I come!\
What's a milligram again, a millionth of a gram? I assume so going by the prefix
@WayneWerner all of those are now, need 20k for instavote
So it will take 20 million years, then
@Kevin you're joking, right?
19:53
@Kevin how many years there are in a millennium? Yep, 1 million years.
@AnttiHaapala My first real interaction with a Chihuahua and my gut instinct was to punt it as far as I could. The thing came yapping around the corner of the building at a rest stop
Metric system, get your act together. A thousandth of a gram should be called a killigram.
:|
it should be called a microkilogramme
@AnttiHaapala I endorse this bold new year-counting system.
should I say gramme?
19:55
But I fear it won't be widespread this killenium.
wim
wim
@Kevin A formi estimate, amirite?
@AndrasDeak I meant new, not "now"
Mikrokilogrammer
@wim Nice.
*golf clap*
19:57
I was googling Kelsey Kilogrammer but no one had done that yet
A kilograhmcracker
graham cracker.....SMORES
medium.freecodecamp.com/… all I can think is "why not just do return studying && hardwork && luck? Eh? MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE WORKED HARDER ON YOUR BOOTCAMP AND NOT LEARNT JS!?
Ha. I was just reading the Hacker News comments for that article. There's so much sass flying around.
> companies automatically categorize us into junior developer roles

in other words, correctly categorized
Direct this man to the BURN WARD
From then on, whenever I submitted an application, I searched for the company on LinkedIn and emailed someone on their engineering or hiring team.
If someone emailed me like that they'd be reported instantly.
20:10
Shotgun approach, baby. Doesn't matter if 90% of your recipients reply with "reported" if 10% reply with an interview offer.
This entire post just sickens me. It reads like an MBA blog.
Admittedly, this is the same reasoning employed by people that send unsolicited dick picks to strangers, but...
I devoted entire days to learning sorting algorithms. Other days, I focused on understanding how the internet worked.
Why!?
It's a statement of how crap interviews are that pointless university "read it from a book" knowledge like that is necessary
Cause OP wanted to know where the salt nation attacked from
As long as interviewers set up ridiculous hoops, they will filter for exceptionally good hoop jumpers
20:14
I find it tedious having to sit through an interview and someone trying to go through a list of "soooo, candidate looks at paper....tell me...what do you look for in a sorting algorithm" places fist on chin and stares.
You know what kind of people are really good at determining exactly what you want to hear? Psychopaths.
Hmm, that's exactly the type of witty remark I wanted to hear.
Good news, everyone! After almost 2 years, I finally updated the Python 3 syntaxh highlighter, which now supports all the upcoming features up to 3.7, and introduces the new comment-driven-optional-highlights! All Sublime Text users are advised to update their packages!
7
I don't think I'm a psychopath. Counter-evidence: I love my dog. Or do I love being perceived as the type of person that loves dogs?
I'm not completely sure what love feels like from the inside. I only have the one data point.
It's the classic "how do I know my perception of red is the same as yours?" problem.
@PeterVaro @MattDMo will be interested in that
20:20
@idjaw yeah, well.. (I won't finish this sentence :))
@Kevin you're not a psychopath if you care about whether or not you're a psychopath. Psychopaths enjoy being psychopaths I guess.
However I don't have any data points on this.
Whoa, I didn't know about PEP 487. I want that.
@KevinMGranger as if one would even often need the metaclasses anyway
I don't know if you guys feel the same way as I do, but while I was updating the above mentioned highlighter, I just realised, that python has just become so complex, it almost losts its beauty which lies in its simplicity
I want __set_name__
it would be useful in my autowired
20:29
Such is the way of things.
but that's not so good..
well, ofc "Complex is better than complicated."
but "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."
and I don't think the new additions are that obvious anymore
Languages rarely become less compl(icated|ex) over time.
not even when "you're Dutch"
Perl 5 --> Perl 6 jump
20:32
yeah sure, sure, I can think of many examples, really
but most languages were not even remotly as beautiful as python a few years ago (around 3.0)
I've never had a problem with it, because I always interpreted simplicity as applying primarily to the syntax and concepts therein. I think that still (mostly) holds true, but there are many things in the zen of python that contradict the language and stdlib :/
There's always the C++ strategy of "Just use the 10% of the language you like the best"
@Kevin do not mention that..!
@AnttiHaapala what I'm doing is admittedly and edge case where metaclasses seem cleaner, although since 3.6 will bring ordered arguments, a decorator might be just as good.
it's probably the worst thing that could happen to a language
that's one of the reasons why C++ is so bad..
20:34
class Descr:
    __set_name__ = lambda self, owner, name: print(owner, name)
class Foo:
    bar = Descr()
@PeterVaro ack
the stdlib should've fixed a dozen times
When Python grows ugly and bloated under the weight of ill-advised language enhancements, I hope the inevitable rooms/6 diaspora sends us all in the same direction.
♫ We'll meet again / don't know where, don't know when... ♫
So, Go or Rust?
there are still those obscure libs, PEP8-violating naming, stupid names like datetime.datetime.datetime.datetime
ninjad
20:36
go
@KevinMGranger yeah well, if you are not using all features of the language, then sure, it is still very easy, but the I was always fond of these ideas, like complex unpacking, or yielding or whatever, which are maybe hard to understand first, but after a pretty short time, you will release how neat those features are, and how they make things which are very hard in other langauges a piece of cake in python
The fact that three of you came up with the same answer is promising. Hooray homogeneity!
@Kevin I actually singed this in my head while I was reading it..
There are a lot of people who, instead of going from 2.7 to 3, are going from 2.7 to Go. I don't necessarily agree, but Go is nice in many areas.
@KevinMGranger Haskell, that's not really a question..
20:37
fun fact: I don't know anything about go, I didn't even know it was Turing complete
@PeterVaro not a day goes by where I don't say "This would be so much easier in python"
Haskell >>= means $ simplicity . duh
*realise not release :P
@KevinMGranger it is simple, very very much, even more simple than python is -- try to teach haskell for someone who never learnt programming in the first place!
s/he will understand it more quickly than for example python
however
if you already familiar with the mainstream concepts of programming
then python is the easiest to roll with
Is there anyone who can help me realizing how asyncio works? Trying to understand it with websockets, however I am not able to understand the library's documentation -.- at least not in the concept I am thinking.
I've tried to learn Haskell many times. I understand everything right up until applicative functors. If you can help get me past that hump I'm sure I'd love it.
@PeterMajko so what part are you having problems with (not that I know much about it)
we could talk about it, though I don't want to pretend I'm an expert in Haskell, I'm just a huge fan of it
@AnttiHaapala python?
If you wouldn't mind, although I do have to pack up and leave in ~20 mins
@PeterVaro get a new name pls
@KevinMGranger Lol :) good one
20:42
we should have a bot that would automatically kick anyone who has a common first name
if there is already one by that name
so I guess @KevinMGranger would have to go as well :D
@IljaEverilä stop lurking!
@KevinMGranger then we should do this tomorrow -- after writing regexes for almost two days, I just want to do something else, than hitting the keys of my computer :)
@AnttiHaapala - basically how to use it with the concept of two lists - incoming and outgoing messages. I have tried to use something like:
inc = asyncio.Queue()
out = asyncio.Queue()
But I don't think it works like that :)
But I don't even
Just opened the laptop :D
Finished writing a complete, though relatively simple, CPython application that reads soundfiles, draws their graph in an image with Pillow and displays it in a canvas with Tkinter! i.giphy.com/3o7TKuhWffakEIpRKg.gif
20:43
:D
So yeah, totally doable.
I can understand that. Eesh
@AnttiHaapala I knew this day would come eventually
don't get me wrong, I love regexes
@PeterMajko why would you even want queues
Me too, in a "people come to me when they want to do the hard ones and I view it as a fun puzzle" kind of way. Still exhausting, eh?
20:44
@PeterVaro I love regexes, hate syntax
@AnttiHaapala what do you mean? how would you change it?
Wish Perl6 rules would come to Python
I love the syntax as well
for me it is super easy to read and write..
then you're masochist
(even very complex ones..)
maybe I am :)
20:45
Next step: embed an SDL frame in Tkinter to speed up drawing.
@Jovito Nice. I'd probably get distracted writing a tabbed window system and forget about the visualization part entirely
the thing is all these (?:!!"#RE) crap was because of backwards-compatibility
if you didn't have to have backwards-compatibility, they'd be easier to write
it is the best perl6 design document
@Kevin Tkinter doesn't have scrollable frames so it was a bit annoying to get that working.
Did you need to do any fourier transforms at all? The last time I looked into playing with sound files, I got bogged down with those.
@AnttiHaapala Ok, to make long message short. I have a program which MainThread creates Thread-1, on that WebSocket server (which uses asyncio) which run_forever. That part is ok. Then when user connect, async def handler comes into play. In that handler function I want to create instance of object which will have two lists - incoming and outgoing messages. Can I perhaps share the link to github for the code?
20:48
ofc, I am not sure if I am of much help though :d
@AnttiHaapala - any help/idea is welcome :)
Are you asking how to have two asyncio queues, one where you can await incoming messages on the websocket, and one where you can push messages to be sent back to the browser?
@KevinMGranger Basically yes :)
but why would you want queues
@Kevin That's for spectrum visualization. The program only draws sample points over time.
20:51
@AnttiHaapala wow, that looks fantastic! there are so many very good ideas in it! I only read the key highlights, and some of the proposed solutions -- I will read it thoroughly later, thanks!
Antti has an important question. Your design is a bit more complex than necessary, probably. I bet you don't even need threading or queues at all.
Hmm, I see
@AnttiHaapala I don't know, maybe lists too, not queues :) but to my knowledge queue is not yielding if there is nothing inside. In case for list I would need to check if the list is empty, right?
Let's step back: what are you trying to do, overall?
@KevinMGranger - That is only an example, part of the application, much more complex inside/out.
20:52
@Jovito Ohhh. Makes sense.
user6568562
Booyakasha
@KevinMGranger - In that one thread I want handle all the inc/out messages. Creators or processors of the messages are in different threads. I try to make a server where I can read for client input, but also push whenever I want. read/push happening on that one thread.
If I understand correctly, then you're trying to use queues to communicate between python threads, which is why you're not just awaiting the websocket messages directly in those threads. Correct?
20:55
@KevinMGranger No, I am using queues because it was in an example for asyncio :D I don't care what it will be. I just need a space where to push messages and space where to get messages from.
You already have those. It's the websocket itself
get_message and send_message are small abstractions over functions that do the same thing. Why not just use those directly?
@KevinMGranger there are many things to come, encrypting, decoding, sending to the right components if the message is of one kind, etc...
Looking back, I don't think you actually asked a question. What is your question?
At first it was to understand the queues of asyncio.
"If I understand correctly, then you're trying to use queues to communicate between python threads, which is why you're not just awaiting the websocket messages directly in those threads. Correct?" - Now thinking about your question again - yes, MyClass.inc should be accessible from other threads. It should only hold the info.
By the way, you're setting up those queues on the class itself, not the instance
Keep in mind that the websocket receive and put methods may not be thread-safe. But then again, neither are asyncio queues. You'd want queue.Queues for that.
21:08
@KevinMGranger Thanks a million ways!!! This was the thing I was missing -.- Now it's working like a charm :) Another pair of eyes - I own you a beer
No problem. I do want to emphasize though, I didn't even know that before I started talking to you-- I just read it in the docs. If you didn't read the docs before asking, I encourage you to start making that a habit. You'll wind up more productive :)
+1 for the fine manuals :)
@KevinMGranger Hi Kevin, I did RTFM :D , however I am working on the project for few weeks day and evening, so my understanding of the language used in docs is now limited.
21:15
cabbage
(as I was rbrb'd for some minutes)
@BhargavRao he has a funny avatar
Yep, It was a facebook prank avatar
@PeterMajko If you do RTFM, it's useful to mention that when asking for help, e.g. "I read this thing but couldn't find any information on how to do the needful"
@WayneWerner Thanks for the tip, I tried to do it at the beginning: "Is there anyone who can help me realizing how asyncio works? Trying to understand it with websockets, however I am not able to understand the library's documentation -.- at least not in the concept I am thinking."
wim
wim
21:22
Anyone here played with curio ?
Nope. Though I kind of glanced through an article about it. Searching history...
Lots of Python questions are struck at cv4, If anyone have CVs please review em. Thanks.
Rhubarb, It's time for me to leave
21:39
hi
21:54
@wim not yet, but I like that they have task-local storage.
user5639219
hello everyone, who have experince with alembic + sqlalchemy?
@Maic no need to ask fi anyone has experience in that if you have a question about it just ask it . See our chat room rules here : sopython.com/chatroom
22:09
So, I'm going to attent on the Local Hack day by Dragon Hack, anyone got expirience?
user6568562
@Martijn, If you don't mind me ask you. What made coding suitable for you ? As in : I get this craft, and I'm gonna make it my livelihood
If you end up on a strange planet, you gotta do something with your life
wim
wim
Martijn is that interview you did online yet
user6568562
@AndrasDeak I knoooooow, but coding isn't what comes naturally easy to most of us
22:14
isn't it?
user6568562
It takes dedication and cleverness and discipline
I disagree, it's very easy to write stupid and lazy (and crap) code;D
user6568562
True, but I'm not talking about lazy and stupid code. I'm talking about coding like none coded before
most people usually don't do that, I guess
but I'm entirely an outsider when it comes to "what do coding people do when they code for a living"
user6568562
@AndrasDeak That's why I'm not asking these questions to most people. I asked similar questions to you (about the reason to adopt Python), to PM2, to tristan, to idjaw, and now to Martijn
user6568562
22:18
To holdenweb, also. To waynewerner, as well
user6568562
Yes to werner* !
user6568562
@AndrasDeak I guess that my situation is convincing me that learning to code is the way to go, you know
hi, can someone translate [F[x]] to PHP or C++ or other language
(i mean notation transtale)
F(x) in MATLAB, roughly
user6568562
22:23
@user6827096 Hear ye, hear ye. By order of this Chamber and their Ri, Ruler Lexer
but only because scalar arrays are scalars
user6568562
If a far journeyed gentleman findth themself ponder their talke with the three lettered tung of the beast
user6568562
May they blush at the matter, at once !
user6568562
Or else, be dragged hanged and quartered, then laid to the influence of the gutter forever to soak and be displayed.
user6568562
For if they wish to loveth filth, then why shan't they marryie ith.
22:26
can someone translate to PHP or C++ line 4 from 11.3 listening from pdf 3 page. (Is it Python?)
(page 2)
primeFactors += [F[x]]
that looks a lot like primeFactors.append(F[x])
thanks
@user6827096 life tip: don't ask to "translate it to PHP or C++ or other language", because some languages are more unlike others than others, and python is often pretty different. What you need is an explanation of what's happening, which you can implement accordingly in your language of choice.
got it
DSM
DSM
Aargh -- after two days the vendor finally admitted that the parts of their API which have been giving me grief don't actually work. I'm going to put off writing a reply until tomorrow when cooler heads can review it first. :-P
22:33
:D
at least it's sort of settled...
DSM
DSM
The vendor has three API versions: the C++ one, which is apparently the most complete; a Java one, which isn't and to boot is in Java; and an XML one, which I would have preferred but doesn't cover everything it needs to. Turns out to get all the functionality I need, i also have to interact with a separate REST API for some information. Thanks, guys!
wim
wim
does anyone know a python library which can make output like tree
e.g.
/tmp/blah$ tree
    .
    └── thingy
        ├── db.sqlite3
        ├── manage.py
        └── thingy
            ├── __init__.py
            ├── models.py
            ├── settings.py
            ├── urls.py
            └── wsgi.py
Assume I have a class Foo and foo instances have a "parent" attribute
DSM
DSM
22:48
.. I can't believe I didn't know about that. I've now installed tree and look forward to using it regularly.
I learned about it a few months ago, looking forward to never using it ever:)
DSM
DSM
?! it's clearly awesome.
wim
wim
I'm writing my own right now but I have the feeling I'm probably reinventing the wheel here...
Doesn't sound too complicated. Could probably be golfed to 100 bytes or so...
@DSM I agree, but I just don't ever need it with what I do
22:51
Well, maybe rather 200...
I don't program in directory trees, and I don't need to print my data-y trees
DSM
DSM
I'm this close to aliasing ls to it.
Not that would do that now, I'm too sleepy...
bottom line is that you might have to reinvent it after all?
i still dont get it
1 def factorization(x, F):
2     primeFactors = []
3     while (F[x] > 0):
4       primeFactors += [F[x]]
5       x /= F[x]
6     primeFactors += [x]
7     return primeFactors

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