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00:18
@WayneWerner Woah! I've just posted on a meta question along these lines. Will this be badly taken? Seems a shame for documenting an interpreted language without prompts...
I forget what people cared about here... examples Docs is just annoying to me
there was some discussion about it at some point...
This would apply beyond python I would think... pretty much any interpreted language with a prompt, should look up what's going on with R documentation. Someone suggested I make that a topic in the documentation group.
there is a meta Documentation Topic on formatting within documentation (and Python) but it basically comes down to - we've all learned to hate it or, at minimum, be annoyed by it and so ignore it
granted, I think this room's biggest complaint is the "examples" angle makes no sense to us (tutorials or actual documentation would but posted homework answers...err..examples not as much)
00:27
@JGreenwell Do you have a link to that topic? Sorry can't find.
we deleted it (actually a massive amount of examples were created then deleted one by one until the whole mess was just deleted)....let me find last version
^ check through the edit history (view topic) and you'll see the amount of deleting and creating going on (this is the most complete version that turned into nobody being able to agree on whether code should be directly copy and paste-able)
:( That seems such a waste to me. The variation on examples in the documentation at the moment are going to a persist because it's confusing as is. I can't imagine this debate didn't rage back in deciding on Docstring years ago, but a decision was made and adhered to (at least somewhat) in documentation style and the standard command prompt. Seems a shame to drop that with the opportunity of doing more (useful) documentation.
But I realize I'm jumping in to a debate that's already raged.
basically it came down to - we would actually like a guide and the SO Employees are saying, well, It require thought and a little empathy, not rules that limit.
00:42
You've linked to the other answer to that question, the one I disagree with :P
yes, cause I've written documentation before (and guidelines, standard operation procedures, emergency procedures, specification, etc) and that is a terrible answer but I'm to the point that I just don't care
if its all about examples it is too broken to be fixed
Reminds me of debates re: python/perl :P (Shout out for readability!) I think formatting for interpreted language examples in general could do with a standard for prompts across the board here if Stackoverflow is aiming to help with documentation.
Ok. I'm gonna take a swing at a bigger meta question and see what happens. This impacts pretty much any documentation for interpreted languages.
Probably after sleeping :P
01:04
let's say i have a .txt or .csv file containing integers 1 2 3. so "1 2 3". is there a way to read in whichever file is available with a single command? or do i need an if/else statement ->
if "file.txt" exists, read in
else if file.csv exists read in
Although not a duplicate, it did answer my question! Thank you! — docff 2 mins ago
asldfkjasldfkjalskdfj. it is a duplicate...
@toshbar You could use a regex, but then you have two problems ;)
@JGreenwell Thanks very much for the post link on the question. Really helpful. Sounds like it's been a frustrating topic to say the least :(
which SOD or multi-datatype matrices? The latter is just a typical indicator that it is time to use pandas so not too frustrating - SOD is a different matter
Also, you could open both but better bet would be to try and open the first and if it causes an exception - catch that and then open the other (with another try which logs and raises an exception if that one doesn't exist either)
lol @idjaw - gotta love it when OP takes "duplicate" to mean "exact duplicate down to the wording and grammar"
when duplicate means carbon copy
01:20
^ which would cause the complaint - "no, that has a different author then this one so it cannot be an exact duplicate"
snicker
01:35
cbg o/
was just reading up about documentation haters club XD
I think it is worse for those of us who work in areas where documentation could have been good (like Flask according to some experts) or where it might have helped reduce the broad, bad questions (like NLP/NLTK stuff)
duplicate beginner python program assistance - jtdeck23‎ - 2016-09-07 01:22:28Z
yeah that seems not great =[ I haven't looked much into documentation myself since it seemed a lot of experienced SO'ers seemed to hate it
Careful, you're complaining outside of the designated areas. You might get a chat ban. ;)
01:50
eek o_o
Yeah, it's been an interesting roll out.
there was also that
user559633
02:20
"Changes that add fewer than 20 characters will not be considered substantive" "and what have you tried...one more char and i can hit enter"
Oh, hey, Tristan. I couldn't find your email, so I sent you a message on slack.
And I just saw your reply. :P
Never mind.
user559633
:)
You got me just after my dnd kicked in, so I didn't get the notification.
^ read that as "you got me just after my D&D kicked in"
Heheh. I wish I had a d&d setting on my phone.
02:27
@JGreenwell same
user559633
Drinking & Distractions. Wait, Databases and Dungeons.
if you ever want to stop people from calling you: do your voicemail intro as a D&D character
Are you speaking from experience?
Databases and Design-patterns?
drunk + dares = interesting next-days
The one game nerdier than actual d&d.
02:30
There was a Star Trek D&D (based) one - I still think that rules all nerdy games
That's my favorite rpg I've ever played. It's kinda like 1984, the rpg.
I love that game
security clearance was such a cool mechanic - also it was fun to get Ultra first and have the "Remove all other players" sub-task (instant win anyone?)
I only played it a couple times, but yeah, the security clearance was the mechanic that stuck with me.
02:45
okay, off for the night. Rbrb all
 
1 hour later…
03:54
post hockey cbg
o/
04:22
cbg
3
Q: Post-edit by 3rd party editor create errors, and 3 of 4 editors approved

JesseMonroy650In my in box, I got a suggested edit for an old answer I gave. I've restored the original content, but it's apparent that the editor relatively new. My question and concern is that I have no way to inform this editor and those that approved that created errors in my post. I can see there is a re...

yay
@Karin on meta?
05:00
@AnttiHaapala haha no, on sopython, as referenced by Wayne: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/32695165#32695165
Cabbage :-)
05:28
@Karin some of them were fixed already... ...superficially...
that is, they've tweaked the number of people required to approve an edit, and that gold-badge holders can make instant changes...
but beyond that, no.
and that page was last edited 1 month ago.
and @thefourtheye cabbage
>>> timeit.timeit("x = 2; 'X is {:d}'.format(x)")
0.36645660700742155
>>> timeit.timeit("x = 2; 'X is {:06d}'.format(x)")
0.5152034210041165
>>> timeit.timeit("x = 2; 'X is %d' % x")
0.20475481799803674
>>> timeit.timeit("x = 2; 'X is %06d' % x")
0.273903375986265
this is strange
why would they rewrite the int formatting code so that it is now slower :/
>>> timeit.timeit('format(2, "d")')
0.39885963799315505
>>> timeit.timeit('format(2, "06d")')
0.5414549999986775
>>> timeit.timeit("x = 2; '%d' % x")
0.1808883710182272
>>> timeit.timeit("x = 2; '%06d' % x")
0.26423800899647176
delta-t!
05:44
Cute Puppy throws a Cabbage back at @AnttiHaapala
@thefourtheye and what does this evil-looking schnauzer have to do with cute puppies :P
cbg
huh?
:D
new iphone will be introduced today
05:58
oh wow!
Seems that some Vietnamese has had hands-on: tinhte.vn/threads/…
no 3.5mm jack
say that this isn't the plus model, so no telling if the plus model has 2 cameras, sim holders as rumoured
say that even the simcard holder had rubbery waterproofing
j0h
j0h
06:27
pardon my noobery, but what does "[:]" mean in python? google wont search those brackets. I get that its an array, but Im not sure what it means.
@j0h no, it is not an array.
[:] is slicing, with both start and end points omitted.
j0h
j0h
oh!~
applied to a list object in an expression, it returns a copy of the original list
j0h
j0h
so what would something like i[:] = [a,b,c] be?
1273
Q: Explain Python's slice notation

SimonI need a good explanation (references are a plus) on Python's slice notation. To me, this notation needs a bit of picking up. It looks extremely powerful, but I haven't quite got my head around it.

j0h
j0h
06:33
Thanks, ill have a loook
116
A: Explain Python's slice notation

David M. PerlmanThe answers above don't discuss slice assignment: >>> r=[1,2,3,4] >>> r[1:1] [] >>> r[1:1]=[9,8] >>> r [1, 9, 8, 2, 3, 4] >>> r[1:1]=['blah'] >>> r [1, 'blah', 9, 8, 2, 3, 4] This may also clarify the difference between slicing and indexing.

@j0h also please read the Python tutorial; this is explained there as well
06:52
cbg
morning
@AnttiHaapala Don't side with my evil-tiwn :-x
07:32
cbg
cbg @BhargavRao
07:54
Cbg all
08:25
Cabbage
TIL It’s possible to run the Python installer on Windows and not select anything to install, so the installer will run through and everything but nothing is being installed
And FYI it still takes a while to load then… xD
08:40
@User42 that's a little rude to pop into a room and just spam another, don't you think?
@poke Is that Python specific or is it just the installer in general that allows such a thing?
I think it’s the installer, Python uses for Windows
You can deselect the “main” item
08:58
Cabbage
Cabbage
I just saw in the transcript a dupe-hammer request for a question I recognised. The new question has been hammered to this target.
But I wrote an answer to essentially the same question 6 months earlier. Should I hammer the Jun 26 '15 question to the one I answered on Jan 14 '15? Or should I just link them via a comment?
Hammer Chain!
@PM2Ring Hammer the Jun26th post with the Jan 14th post
09:10
Shall do.
Oh no! The Jun26th post didn't have the Python tag. And I didn't notice until after I'd voted. :(
Looks like there are more dupes that can be hammered to that.
Thanks, Bhargav. Did you manage to visit Intellipraat today?
Damn, Damn. I forgot. I'll put a remainder for tomo.
I went there yesterday and it was closed. :/
@BhargavRao Oh dear. I just Googled site:stackoverflow.com python azcbobobegghakl and got a page full of hits...
@BhargavRao Yeah, I saw that in the transcript. But maybe they're always closed. :)
Haha, Same university students! :D
09:19
@PM2Ring is that intellipaat good?
@PM2Ring Ah, I did not think about that. There was a board that mentioned Intellipaat Hadoop Training, But there was no timings.
I'll go again tomo, if it's still closed, I'll speak to the neighbors and find out. ;)
@AndyK It's the best, See the post on quora about it.
@AndyK Good at teaching IT? Probably not. Good at scamming people? Maybe.
Hey, you let the cat out of the bag :(
Who's the evil person that put the cat in the bag to start with hey? :p
@PM2Ring I checked in which cities they were training, this is what I found:

training in cities : UK
-_-'
#OnlyInAmerica
sorry American friends
09:23
@AndyK That should give you an idea of their expertise. :)
indeed
Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Delhi, Kolkata, (UK), London, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Washington, New York, Orlando, Boston
hi i like to study python can any one give best video tutorials link
When a company is national-centric and does not care about the rest of the world, it is often not a good sign of the quality of the products , that company is trading... I guess it is very empirical and based on my personal sample but often it turned out to be true
09:26
ok it is very help ful
but i want some tutorials based on examples like how to create website using python some thing like that
@shahidkhan It's always preferred to have an intermediate control over basic python first and then start off on fancy stuff.
09:51
Yeah don't just jump into web dev without knowing Python; it's not a great way round
10:15
Aug 2 at 14:46, by PM 2Ring
@Bio Generally speaking, it's a really good idea to have a solid foundation of core Python (and the principal standard libraries that ship with Python) before you attempt to master a complex 3rd party library. Having those core skills will make it a lot easier to understand the docs for the 3rd party library, since the writers of those docs will assume you have those skills. And having that solid foundation will make it easier to understand how best to use the features of that library.
@shahidkhan the problem with stuff like djangogirls is it feels as though it's designed for someone with ADHD, who will lose focus very quickly if not given very quick visible results back
(Apologies for anyone with ADHD here, especially if it's not actually like that. I hope you see the point I'm trying to make.)
For people with 0 perseverance?
I'm exaggerating a bit, but yeah. TBH I'm a bit like that as well, so I also learned slower than I could've, but the more Python you understand up front the shorter your entire journey will be
Having said that, if you get bored and give up because you never saw any results then that also wasn't great
10:34
Wow. Such wisdom. Very Bob.
@Ffisegydd I learned from the best
I totally understand people wanting to do interesting stuff when they first start programming, and you can do some pretty impressive stuff in Python, even just using the standard modules, without having a solid mastery of the core language. OTOH, there's no substitute for that core language knowledge, and acquiring an understanding of what programming's all about. Without that foundation you're doomed to become a cargo-culter.
Yes, it can be boring writing CLI stuff that does simple processing of ints, strings and other basic objects. But hey, if you can't cope with doing boring stuff from time to time perhaps programming is not for you.
In fact - I thoroughly enjoy the boring bits - data and backend stuff... although I have to do the front-end stuff to show that something's actually happened... clients tend to panic a bit when they're paying you and you've got the DB set up, the websocket server going, you've got the automated processes and the failovers set up etc... etc... there's always that "but what can I look at!?" :p
10:44
@NinjaPuppy those are not not boring bits
Not to some people - but to most... I imagine they are :(
I never do front end any more feels good man
To use a car analogy, some people like working on the engine, some like doing the fancy paintwork or the upholstery.
According to Newton, front-end/htmls/css people also like using macbooks
10:49
Some people are great at working on individual bits and pieces, but aren't great when it comes to integrating everything. Others are excellent at coming up with a holistic framework for the whole project, but aren't so skilled at doing the fine detailed stuff. So it's kinda essential that the different types can appreciate each others' values, and can communicate and work together effectively.
@PM2Ring And generally the people you want to design the most fabulous interior/exterior aren't the same people you want designing and building your most fuel efficient powerful engine :)
Every time I tried to design a website, it looked like 90s crap
my color blindness also makes things worse
Thankfully - most of the front-end stuff I have to do is for internal tooling - so bootstrap with material design and re-using templates I've already got is more than enough... for a consumer facing website - I'd get someone else to do it...
Yeah I'm liking Material Design.
Been using Angular+Angular Material lately, works well.
have you seen the new G+ design?
it's illogical for non-touch devices
specifically that circle button on the bottom-right and huge controls
feels like a big android app
11:03
@NinjaPuppy Exactly! Some people can do both types of work, but it's rare that they can do both of them well. :) True, plenty of good software was created by a sole coder, but the vast majority of those programs are old CLI utilities. On a modern GUI project, especially if it's sufficiently big that it's just not practical for one person to do everything, it makes sense to use a "divide and conquer" strategy.
I once had an idea for a web application which would unit good open source coders and designers who would be willing to help open source community
because generally, free software don't have designers and end up looking like crap.
Designers gots to gets paid
they can do it for portfolio
and internet points
actually I might do the project
shouldn't be too hard time consuming
11:24
famous last words...
:D
iPhone 7 is being announced today
I'm with the @NinjaPuppy : I prefer my backends and data
Many People can't buy as they're left with only one kidney (after buying iPhone6) :/
LG v20 was announced too. It's a beast
web, GUI, and UI are just those annoying bits I have to do when stuff needs visualized beyond a report
11:29
It's funny, I like these smartphone stuff but also think that $200 motorolla is more than enough for everything I do.
about to waste some more money
@khajvah on the radio they said "A highlight is that the headphone jack may be changed." How is that newsworthy?
s/changed/removed
Apple have been making pretty dumb decisions lately
So you need some $39 lightning adapter for headphones then?
or $199 bluetooth headphones
The thing is, it's worth paying as there's no better way of keeping in touch with people than iMessage
11:33
Signal is one way
@RobertGrant I don’t even know what iMessage is
It's an Apple product-only version of WhatsApp
wow
(I'm kidding about it being the best way to keep in touch with people)
@RobertGrant I was confused for a bit
11:35
well it has new emojis
emojis is usually a OS feature though
It's an app feature as well
Whatsapp has its own ones I think
yeah, but if your OS has them, the app does not need its own
Yeah but then the app can't sell you emoji packs
e.g. my Android keyboard can natively enter all possible Unicode emojis. I don’t need Whatsapp’s keyboard for that
11:36
I don't think you need emojis at all
@khajvah 👎
god I hate how people are defending apple for removing headphone jack
@BhargavRao reminds me of a joke...
Article title should be "Hit the road, Jack"
> Best part is Apple forcing the hand of the wireless industry and us getting wired quality wireless earphones within a couple of years and we can finally say goodbye to shitty tangled wires.
11:40
The best part is something that hasn't happened yet?
Surely the best part is that you now have to charge your earphones as well as your phone
“getting wired quality wireless earphones” – I’m pretty sure that already exists, quality-wise…
advance the humanity as much as you want but don't get rid of industry standard headphone jack. Not like it's only the headphones that have that 3.5mm connector
especially if the only reason for doing so is to get your phone .5 mm thinner
Next, LightningTooth, a grade of audio up to 0.00005% better than what you get with BlueTooth.
@RobertGrant lightning connector will be replaced with quantum encrypted laser fibre cable.
<a href="about:blank">Click here to see the exciting new features of IPhone 7!</a>
<a href="iphone4.html">Click here to see the all the features of IPhone 7!</a>
11:50
@khajvah I feel that. I'm awful at design. I go with 'minimally tweaked bootstrap' for prototypes and get someone else to do the final layout.
read that CPU name as 'Baby Kake' for a moment
@khajvah Not really news though
we should all gather, bring torches and gas and burn down Microsoft.
11:52
@khajvah Or we don’t do that.
@khajvah did you read correctly :D
@HieuNguyen cbg
yeah I know I don't use windows so I shouldn't care but this is ridiculous
“New MacBook only supports the current mac OS!”, “New iPhone only supports the current iOS!” – Awful news indeed
@khajvah Did you see the image? :P
11:53
actually it is a FSCKING big deal
I still like that the WOZ points out that he (with his disability from plane crash) will have to get an adapter for his headphones
if this makes intel/amd drop backward compatibility --- over time.
“New Samsung Galaxy only works with the current Android” – Wishful thinking actually. It’s usually the version below that…
@poke That's exactly why Apple is awful too
@AnttiHaapala It’s Windows dropping support here. Not Intel/AMD.
11:54
@poke read correctly.
if you need new windows to run on it, then they do not need to care for backward compatibility
since their platform is mostly about windows anyway :d
it is a big deal.
if it is true
Microsoft is basically overusing its monopoly
so far you can run windows 3.1 on x86-64 if you want.
@khajvah Oh shut up already, seriously…
anyway, this and the windows 10 update fiasco will mean that I will completely stop using windows.
this is a big issue. Many people have privacy concerns with WIndows 10. Microsoft's policies of forcing its users to adopt their new mall-ware is a big concern.
If I had paid for Windows 7/8 I would be really furious.

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