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14:00
@WayneWerner it is a way of mimicking/recreating Dabbawala
FWIW, in the days of DOS/360, the concept of a device driver provided by the OS was non-existent. Assembler programs had to do their own low-level negotiations with peripherals. Higher level languages had such facilities hard-coded into the compiler, which made porting compilers a slow & painful process. And modern directory-based file systems didn't exist either, so disk reading & writing involved scary low-level stuff.
@PM2Ring Nice. I somehow managed to co-opt the old Amiga 500 into my bedroom so I could play games on it. Can't even remember what version of workbench we used.
@PM2Ring blimey
@PM2Ring does that involve "please rotate the cassette 11.5 degrees to the left...nooo a bit back, bit more, perfect"?
@PM2Ring That's wild
14:02
@AndrasDeak Something like that. :)
> In fact, Python passes all reference objects by reference.
what does this mean?
:3190833 That someone doesn't understand python
@RobertGrant do you need to be part of a specific ethnic/racial profile to understand a problem? That would be more my question. it seems at Slack that the ladies there are doing a great job even if the demographic using Slack may not be that diverse, indeed
user559633
Yeah, that's a misunderstanding and shoe-horning in "reference" where it doesn't make sense.
They're trying to say that anything mutable passed to it can be mutated by a function?
@AndrasDeak I don't know what he meant by "reference object"
39 secs ago, by tristan
Yeah, that's a misunderstanding and shoe-horning in "reference" where it doesn't make sense.
I guess talking about python in C terms is not very constructive
heh. Exactly
> very constructive
hehehehehe
user559633
Well, if you're talking kind of opaquely about how Python works, C is helpful.
I see what you did there, even if you didn't ;)
user559633
14:04
but saying "yeah, blah blah pass by reference", then no.
@WayneWerner I sure didn't:P
and I'm not sure I'm willing to take credit for it
Anyone use python to develop iPhone Application? I'm coming from PHP background. But I want to know what are the advantage of python from actual users
user559633
@FarhadSaadatpei if you can already code in python, that's your advantage.
:( my star
Or do you guys recommend any other programming language
14:06
@AndyK I think that's not the same thing (of course women can do the same thing!), but this sort of conversation is probably against some rules so let's stop
@tristan I code in PHP only
and Swift
@FarhadSaadatpei You can use Kivy... but the process to get an iPhone application is a bit wonky
The old disk drives used to vibrate a fair bit, enough to move them slightly. Under normal use the movements would be in random directions, so it was no big deal; you might get one or two centimetres of movement per day.
But allegedly one guy decided to have a bit of fun with this and wrote code to time disk accesses in such a way as to maximize the rocking and to move the drive unit in a particular direction. He left his code running overnight, and when the operators arrived in the morning they couldn't get into the computer room because the drive was jammed up against the door.
user559633
@FarhadSaadatpei if you can code in swift, why are you asking about using python to write ios applications?
the advantage is that with only a bit of change you can also install it on Android
so, there's that advantage
user559633
14:07
yeah, it never is that clean
I heard swift is good
Xamarin is a .NET approach to the same problem
@PM2Ring Ultra troll.
user559633
i have bad blood with swift
@tristan because I need server language to connect to database and stuff
14:08
@PM2Ring A classic tale, to be sure
@tristan yeah, that version would make it hard to explain why i+=1 won't change your int, but lst+=[1] will change your list
user559633
@FarhadSaadatpei then write it in php, obj, or swift.
user559633
why are you asking about python?
@FarhadSaadatpei IOS app to connect to db and stuff?
'k @RobertGrant let's discuss that another time, another place
14:08
I use web language like PHP to connect to MySQL, cause Swift don't allow you to
@AndyK :)
@khajvah Yes
@tristan ?
user559633
b...ecause swift can also refer to taylor swift.... taylor swift series
Basically, I want a language which is less painful with keep changin IDE
lmao
You can run swift on a server
user559633
then write an API with PHP and talk to that API with your app?
@tristan ...oh :)
user559633
or that, or anything else. if you want to learn Python, hooray, but i wouldn't go in with the expectation that learning a new language is going to make being productive any easier
I would never start out with a native app, though, if I could do what I wanted with a web app
14:11
I see
user559633
man, that taylor swift girl got stories to tell
I haven't start the app yet, just gathering technical requirements
user559633
want to get shit done? -> use what you know
want to learn a thing? -> don't expect to get shit done
rhubarb for now
14:13
tristan, how did yesterday's stream go
@tristan good one. Make sense
Want to run a startup? -> Stream FTL for your friends.
@tristan everything wrong with this world
user559633
@Ffisegydd yeah, seriously. i have like 2 more weeks of bouncing around handling IRL stuff, then i need to make a schedule and stick to it
user559633
i actually feel pretty shitty about myself :)
14:14
^_^
It's a good thing you have a Fizzy around to remind you to never stop never stopping.
I am pretty bad at FTL, barely score 1k
user559633
"don't use jquery, it sucks."
- okay, i'll use react.
"you're using react wrong?"
- oh, i' m using a guide from May 2016
"oh that's old and broken"
user559633
webdev 2016
Alright guys thanks. @khajvah, @tristan
user559633
14:14
@idjaw it went okay. i need more people shouting at me for my sense of humor to work
user559633
@FarhadSaadatpei nw, good luck and please feel free to come back around if you need help learning python (this should be the first python reference you use docs.python.org/3/tutorial)
user559633
Just took me 7 minutes to delete 50MB worth of files.
user559633
your computer has ADHD. i know this because does anyone have a good recipe for breaded chicken? i think i'm going to do an overwatch stream later today
14:16
They were on a remote network drive and were node_modules. So many small files O_O
It'd be quicker to just magnetise the drives and re-install 'nix.
@tristan if I had time I'd try it still, just to see what using React is actually like
user559633
i'll throw together a tutorial
user559633
once you get a pattern down, you can run with it for a while, then you'll run into something like es6 not supporting properties and you'll get a cluster migraine, then you'll get told that you should be using redux instead of flux, then you'll feel an emptiness growing inside you
@tristan I would definitely be interested in reading that
> This example uses an XML-like syntax called JSX.
This sounds like the worst thing ever.
user559633
14:19
and then you'll transpile that to JS via es6
It sounds like all the best parts of JS with all the best parts of XML. So, unreadable with silent type conversions.
user559633
keeping in mind that things are loaded asynchronously, so you either have to hook on a callback to load/construct the "objects" at the proper time or have your bundling/build on lockdown
user559633
@MorganThrapp oh, you "should" be using this library that pretends to do static typing
user559633
i'm at a point where i have a beautiful build process of the world's most complicated i18n website that doesn't do anything of substance
user559633
and, like high school tristan in a calculus class, there's a wealth of information prepared that i don't know how to access
user559633
14:21
goddamn i love me some python
afternooncbg
user559633
cbg
I'm pretty sickly and in bed, so i'm expecting some top notch entertainment here this afternoon, people.
annnnd... go!
you're welcome
wait this might not loop for ever
@Withnail You missed all the docs drama, go back and read it.
14:24
is it supposed to be blank andras?
Is it like a super deep meta-joke?
user559633
what drama
user559633
plan b is now get swole and write nerdcop
@tristan all about the build
14:25
Ah, there we go, just got it to load.
This might give me hallucinations in my state
mmmm, badgers
> A Snaaaaake!
user559633
in case you haven't seen this
that one is good too
user559633
it's one of the best videos on this here internet
14:27
hahahaha omg
My son and daughter seem to be playing Marco Polo... but "Stinky Fart"
@WayneWerner I'm talking about doing something like this: bpaste.net/show/e937d081c1b0
Jun 1 at 18:08, by idjaw
@tristan I'd be more interested in history if history was as fun as that video
Where the error handler doesn't return anything, but just offers a centralized way to do cleanup in other function that throw exceptions.
This is certainly more entertaining/less bleak than the breakup of yugoslavia, which is what I've mostly been reading about recently.
user559633
in which ways is yugoslavia related to yugimon
they both belong to the joghurt empire?
no, that's too far
This, apparently.
@tristan I love that guy
@MorganThrapp That seems a bit off for me - it's not immediately apparent that the exception is re-raised
I'd expect to see something like
except SomeException as e:
     cleanup()
     raise e
for instance
14:34
. nope wrong message
Yeah, that would work too. I like to have it all be self contained, but I definitely see the advantage of that.
I'm not entirely sure that either approach is best. And there are probably times when one or the other is more appropriate
Though it's not immediately obvious to me which cases would be
The main advantage for me of having it all self contained, is that I can conditionally reraise. If it turns out one of my error handlers can deal with the exception, I can avoid reraising, where I can't in that situation.
But it is more readable to do it in the except if it's always to be reraised.
yeah, I think that's probably the best if it can be done
I think I'd prefer that to something like if not can_recover(e): raise(e)
14:44
@RobertGrant That's also why LN2 is so dangerous. It doesn't inhibit CO2 being removed from your body, it just prevents new oxygen from taking its place. So you just slowly drift off and die.
cbg all
o/ @JGreenwell
Hey, @JGreenwell
cbg @JGreenwell
So I finally got Pokemon GO
14:46
And..?
You like it?
kids love it (and my apartment complex has pokestop/gym which makes it easier)
Yeah, that's neat
I forgot but o/ @idjaw
I've got plenty pokestops on my way to work
hey @AndyK
14:47
which is helpful cause a 2 year-old is not the best at aiming those throws - so I need to refill alot (but we did walk couple km this weekend)
The walk motivator is nice. I've barely walked anything but I've hatched a 10km egg
I lost a squirtle this weekend
I'm very mad
Lost?
it ran away
I used a razz berry and a great ball
and still ran away
it was only CP 303 and I am level 12. So poopie
Oof, that sucks. :/
14:51
I'm glad you guys get it. My wife had no compassion for my loss
I finally got the GF to start playing. I think she's more into than I am.
my four year old gets more "great" throws then I do....losing my gaming abilities
It definitely helps that the area near our apartment has a disgusting amount of pokestops.
Someone already has caught 142 pokemon. He still has 3 region locked ones he has to get though...
user559633
have a good day everyone
14:53
\o @tristan
later tristan
See yah, Tristan.
I didn't even know they could run away
Happened to me just as you said it XD
see you
@tristan you too mate
14:54
@Gemtastic yeah...they can be real jerks
I just want to trap them in to a small uncomfortable ball....what's the big deal
@idjaw And make the fight each other.
That was impressive
@Gemtastic exactly....sounds like a good life
14:57
oh that's perfect
they don't really mean that...do they?
I mean, even peta has to have some sort of sense of humour, right?
humour and peta never go together
ever
people with no sense of humour are a PETA PITA
Hummus and pita on the other hand is a perfect pairing.
Morgan gets it
15:00
My favorite part of that game is pikachu
cause in the show Pikachu doesn't have to go in his pokeball because he doesn't like it
@MorganThrapp mmmmm, hummus
Why are people in meetings for literally hours? What are they even talking about?
usually nothing important
usually they are waiting for someone
@WayneWerner I got some fresh Jalapenos this weekend and I'm going to make some hummus with it.
with pointy hair to actually show up
15:02
Now that I finally have a food processor, because making hummus in a blender is an exercise in insanity.
then they decide to plan out what they are going to talk about in their next meeting
after reading the minutes of the last meetings to see what they should be doing this meeting
Hey room, has anyone ever dabbled with machine learning?
@zsawaf not me. But if you have a question, please just ask. :) and if it is your first time here, please read our room rules here
a few of us
15:04
@MorganThrapp oooh, that sounds delicious
You also have to include the time people are eating cause someone always brings doughnuts or something
Mmmmm, donuts
Thanks, it is my first time here. I'm usually around the web dev section of SO.
best is a deli tray which means a 2 hour meeting at least (1-hour for lunch)
15:05
@WayneWerner I did budgetbytes.com/2016/03/pesto-hummus but added chopped jalapenos last time I did it.
hummus and jalapeno? suspicious face
I was wondering if anyone can point me in a direction on where to start learning about machine learning / neural networks etc
Yo hummus and jalapeno is delicious
I've been working through this the last week or so
what is your math and CS backgrounds, what do you want to learn ML and ANN for, and do you just want ANN or a more broad education on AI?
Well, worked through that then did my own stuff in it.
15:07
I'm gonna have to break out the food processor. That looks amazing
I'm a computer science graduate, specialized in web dev. Dabbled in AI a tiny bit - min max algorithms, state based games, built them in prolog and schema. I'd like to get into it because I feel like it's the future of programming, and I'd like to get a head start
Probably want to invent a time machine first, then. ;)
@MorganThrapp I've only had sabra.com/… for spicy hummus
and it was delicious
at that level I'd start with youtube.com/user/PyDataTV/playlists
@WayneWerner I love Sabra. They make some amazing hummus.
15:10
hahah you have the right idea Withnail. Thanks a lot JGreenwell. Work is going really slow, figured I'd make use of my time and learn new stuff. Cheers!
and look through the AI and ML videos on MIT
Bookmarked both :)
if you want to really get into it also look into a Discrete Mathematics course if you skipped that or did not do well in it
I'll definitely have to look into, I literally forgot all the math I've learned in my undergrad.
15:12
AI and ML can involve a large amount of mathematical application (finding gradients, statistics, graph theory, etc) and understanding them can really help in the long run
I came across Deep Mind last week, and I was astonished by the work they have done. It'd be cool if eventually in the future I can contribute to that field somehow
@WayneWerner God I miss homestar.
Forget about replacing programmers - we need AI that can give us great requirements ;)
Deep Mind is interesting (it beat a Go player using Monte Carlo so that was neat) - I just wish people would stop saying it was a real "thinking machine" as opposed to Watson. This is a very bad comparison and neither are thinking machines in any case
15:22
Bye everyone
@JGreenwell we should start our own AI project... but in reality - it's just a bunch of people typing really quickly :)
@JGreenwell Yeah exactly. When Hawking started talking about how we need to fear AI, the only thing I thought that was amazing about it was how did that guy jump a shark?
Rewording tasteless jokes only makes them funnier, Rob
physicist != computer scientist
or for that matter: computer scientist != "knows about AI/ML"
so "really smart guy talks about AI theory taken from science fiction over science" gets a lot of press
Pardon my ignorance GreenWell, but can you elaborate? From what I understood, they introduced the agent, and it knew nothing. And it kept playing against it's previous state, and beating it each time, hence self learning, eventually it beat the world champion
plus, AI researchers really pushed the "cartoon brain" picture of machine learning so it sticks in people's heads
yes, @zsawaf self-learning based on back-prorogation and markov chains (well, and extension of it) using a form of the Monte Carlo algorithm (if I remember correctly). Again, awesome but based on mathematical probability, graph theory, and other such concepts - not self-learning like biological systems
15:31
@JGreenwell a hybrid picture of that and a cloud would push every IPO button in the world
I know.....which is why I use it alot.... so ashamed
waits patiently for pip to finish
gah, stupid tensorflow.
my favorite quote on machine learning is the fake one from Alan Turing on The Imitation Game (which definitely fit with his seminal paper Computing Machinery and Intelligence)
cbg Antti. What is said quote?
15:40
> Of course machines can't think as people do. A machine is different from a person. Hence, they think differently. The interesting question is, just because something, uh... thinks differently from you, does that mean it's not thinking?
That sounds a bit like an arts major's attempt at the complexity :)
yeah, but it's helpful explaining it to people - who would never read through the actual paper
and people who just haven't read it yet :)
I guess you could use the same quote to describe the difference between humans thinking and ants thinking, though
15:48
yes, but people don't get confused about ants thinking like humans.....at least I don't think they do; I will admit I don't usually ask
Godel Escher Bach has a fun chapter about how an ant colony thinks. None of the ants are sapient, but the colony is.
Kinda like SO chat.
It's friends with a talking anteater, who communicates with the colony by eating individual ants in predetermined patterns that correspond to words/ideas. The audience stand-in character likens it to murder, but the author stand-in character compares it to shedding a skin cell. Or something along those lines.
Maybe a better metaphor is: how ethically bad do you feel about killing a neuron through a fun night of drinking?
How bad do I feel? Depends, how much did I have to drink?
Note that the pain from a hangover and the regret you feel because you got a hangover, don't count as "ethically" bad ;-)

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