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19:00
it's an infinite loop , get page elements each time , in the first round no error appears , in the 2nd round i get that error
you know what i'm saying ?
(Although, even if such an element does exist on the page as you see it in your browser, that doesn't necessarily mean that selenium can see it. For all we know, the radio one way element is created long after page load by some javascript code)
ok , any solution ?
@odaialghamdi Not really. I've never used selenium before.
Hummmmmmmmmmmm
@odaialghamdi we have no idea of the code you're running or the page you're running it on, so there's nothing to say beyond the general comments Kevin made
user559633
19:09
Heh, on my way to working towards PeterVaro's question, I'm posting answers to qt questions stackoverflow.com/questions/23627510/install-pyqt5-on-mavericks/…
I am sick and tired of this down-vote business here at stack-exchange. This is not at all constructive. — hky404 2 mins ago
Ask more on-topic questions then? :)
user559633
It's all in the game
Flagged the comment as not constructive.
I mean, it does outright state that it is not constructive.
^ ROFL
user559633
19:18
Mmm, I just intuitively knew that the guy/gal would not have any answers, only posted questions.
user559633
Uhh, that's not really constructive either.
Maybe meta-constructive, but comments should be about the question.
wtf, he responded with 'Thanks!!'?
user559633
Wow, he took that in stride.
user559633
I really want to help him now.
19:22
Nobody uses two exclamation points in a row when they're being sincere.
user559633
Or maybe he plans on murdering me
@tristan I didn't really flag it, but i thought it was funny...
user559633
Either way, solid response and someone stepped in to pro-troll.
user559633
Oh, lol it's you
we love you @Kevin!!
19:24
I couldn't help myself >.<
(sorry - couldn't resist) :(
hmm, not sure if insincere, or just flagrantly violating the immutable laws of language
user559633
@humdinger I have flagged your comment with the criteria of "other," sub-criteria "too meta."
I'mma have to introduce you to my copy editors, Strunk (rolls up left sleeve) and White (rolls up right sleeve)
user559633
19:25
+100
Seems quite odd naming your sleeves...
user559633
+200
you get rep for flagging stuff?
Oooh, you are so getting a strongly worded retort. Where's my thesaurus...
user559633
there's no way i'm getting points on this one stackoverflow.com/questions/23627510/install-pyqt5-on-mavericks/…
19:29
@tristan I have no idea if that answer's correct or even in a position to be able to try it... :(
user559633
it's right.
user559633
100%.
user559633
I installed it again just to get the exact output
Well, that comment fiasco question has now been edited
user559633
everyone that has an upvoted comment in that chain should get a free cupcake
19:31
How about cheesecake?
Oooo... I go for cheesecake.... I also suggest that people that want cheesecake get cheesecake
user559633
I am sick and tired of this substitution-cake business here at stack-exchange. This is not at all constructive.
Question: is there a way to have temporary virtual environments in Python 3.4.1 so that I install things like: requests, BeautifulSoup, and urllib and afterwards all traces of them are removed?
vitualenv
19:32
you can just delete the env
so I would just have to delete that directory afterwards?
if you're thinking of something like setting up testing envs for different versions, check out tox
Do you have any idea how much extra time it would take to install what I mentioned along with: sys, and time for the script to install, run, and remove?
no, because I don't know your network speed or computer setup
DSM
DSM
19:35
Of all of the tools you just listed, only BeautifulSoup isn't native to Python 3.4. (Depending on which requests you mean.)
you don't install sys and time, they're stdlib
are we talking possibly over 2 minuites
see me earlier comment about not knowing your setup
what are you actually trying to accomplish?
and (im new) but I saw sys and time being imported in all of the tutorial I read
user559633
Yes. Possibly over two minutes. virtualenv. @PythonApprentice.
19:36
you can pip install beautifulsoup
I cant get lmxl to work in Python 3.4.1 @davidsm
DSM
DSM
Some modules are built in. Some you download and install. Some you write yourself. sys and time are built in.
Do you think SO should have a tutorial like wiki section?
user559633
To do what @Humdinger?
Well, users could combine and explain things about certain technologies/languages
or even like a 'get started with python' type tutorial
user559633
19:40
SO is a Q&A site that's supported by ads and paid services that's designed to make money.
The web has enough tutorials :-)
user559633
Eh, slippery slope on where to end. And there wouldn't be many posts on SO if people were willing to fudging read 200 words.
I think the point of SO is that no matter what tutorial those askers "read", they still have questions that could have been answered by reading the tutorial.
@davidism thats true
good points
19:42
surprisingly stackoverflow is more usable than any tutorial
you could have "modules" filled with questions... different from tags because it would only include questions asked in a certain language about basic tasks and general knowledge of a programing language... not complicated or specific things
often I have a problem that I can describe in English, I type it in google and find the solution to that very problem... from stackoverflow
that's why we have canonical questions
user559633
@PythonApprentice 'you could have "modules" filled with questions' -- like some sort of...book with an index
19:45
@PythonApprentice @Humdinger docs.python.org/3/tutorial/introduction.html
surprisingly few ppl care to read it
ppl ought to read it and contribute changes to it
I read that all the time @AnttiHaapala
gotta go
I read the python docs all the time. But there are other languages with poor docs, and also I was thinking that a lot of people skip the docs and go straight to SO.
no need to use other languages with poor docs :P
@Humdinger as in: "My homework's due tomorrow - better post my assignment and get an answer"
@AnttiHaapala Touché
user559633
19:47
The fact that my rep isn't 2^(something) annoys me right now.
my favourite was someone that posted "What can I do regarding question 4" (or whatever) and included a photograph from a mobile phone :)
@tristan so you would be happy with 2^0 or even 2^1?
@JonClements Wow, that is hilarious.
user559633
Yes @AnttiHaapala.
@tristan then again you still have less to reach than martijn :P
19:49
@tristan it has been 2 hours -- and no answer => this will be one of those questions which will never got answered.. too specific? asked in the wrong time? idk..
do you think it is super hard to create a bundle manually?
user559633
@PeterVaro I started down the path of setting up my system and writing a test app to help
(I mean writing my own project-specific packager)
user559633
@AnttiHaapala yeah, I answer unpopular questions
@PeterVaro your pyqt contains C++ code, it will never be portable
@AnttiHaapala Mac to Mac it will
DropBox using the exact same technology btw
(ofc those guys are probably more experienced than I am :/)
19:55
sooo... what are the advantages of django over flask? I feel like django might be a better tool for the job in this case.
user559633
@crow you get up and running faster with django
doesn't django make it easier to implement admin views and user authentication / authorization in general?
user559633
i think it's faster plugins
"I want to go to the Antarctic, which one is better, airplane or bicycle?" "Well with bicycle, every child can get moving"
what django is good for is:
if you want to do a blog, then use django
anything which you might use wordpress for in php, use django
--- just that not all ppl do blogs for living though.
I am making a news site, where multiple people can write articles
20:00
django
django was made for a news website
this is the correct choice
user559633
use wordpress
user559633
use an old version of wordpress so it's stable
just hour before my wife was complaining that a cooking blog was defaced
use a twitter feed
20:01
Use Microsoft Frontpage. It's so easy! What you see is what you get!!
do I flag that as a spam @tristan?
your joke fails to be funny
user559633
uhh the star icon thing
Use CGI. Here, I'll get you started. print "<HTML>\n<head>"
there is nothing funny with wordpress
user559633
the comedian is php, wordpress is the joke, and you're the audience
20:02
if you want a secure system, code your site in C, at least the hackers cannot hack it, unlike the PHP system.
DSM
DSM
I don't think coding in a language which allows pointers and buffer overruns is a good idea if you want security.
user559633
^ was seriously pitched as a project to me
user559633
i'm bad with english today.
we all are
user559633
a boss once told me that i should be writing the site in C for performance and security
20:04
You should have responsed with "How about Cobol instead?"
@DSM Well, it may be more secure by obscurity, since php defects are widely disseminated throughout the hacking community (I assume), but no one will take the effort to reverse engineer your homebrew system.
Script kiddies want a big friendly "pwn the website" button, and they won't find one ready made for web_server.kevinscript
user559633
I wrote like 150 lines and was like "yeah no there is no effing way i am going to attach a templating backend to this"
security through obscurity is not security
Just embed the html and style sheets IN the c code!
the extension for KevinScript 3 will be .kevinkevinkevin
user559633
20:06
it can get you pretty far though antii
but if your puny service is obscure enough, no one wants to try in :d
user559633
see also: why you don't run ssh on port 22.
@tristan easy to find the port where it is running
The most secure systems are the ones no-one uses/knows about.
user559633
Moving out of the path of script kiddie tools can seriously lower the number of attacks.
20:07
what you want is the "port triggering" or so...
Obscurity is secure right up to the point where suddenly it's not secure any more :-D
user559633
@AnttiHaapala >_> sure, but most "hackers" don't know that.
user559633
It doesn't protect against some smart fartlord that has it out for you, but it will reduce the amount of "i'm 14 and have metasploit" attempts.
And there are many more 14 year olds than smart fartlords these days
user559633
20:09
where the other bison is a different site. you don't have to be the best, just not the lowest hanging fruit
I remember once on IRC - some kid thought to knock me off the network - all he had to do was ping me every 5 seconds
Was using CTCP PINGs - not even network pings, or large UDP packets
sighs
What is the definition of "fartlord"?
Dunno, but I bet there aren't many of them
Well, if there are, everyone avoids their general vicinity.
user559633
if u have 2 ask its u @Humdinger
20:13
well played..
However, I guess that means I am the smart guy who knows how to break in to all your stuff..
user559633
Go for it. I'll have the cyber police on you so fast.
Nonsense, they have deep pockets
DSM
DSM
Why would someone spell out "Initialized" but use "U" instead of "you"?
user559633
Is that in a question @DSM?
Because they don't really care about minimizing the length of their message, and merely want to signal their membership in whatever clique thinks "u" is cool
DSM
DSM
20:16
@tristan: here.
I think this code is collaborated
Also, "initialized" doesn't have a nice short form. Inited? blech.
Maybe the output is required to look that way by his teacher. There's a reason he doesn't work in the English department ;-)
user559633
Oh wow. I hate that post.
It has an s not a z dammit! :)
user559633
And yeah, I think he copy and pasted some of the code and then understood what raw_input does, so he put in text that he felt comfortable reading.
20:19
a question with a class Fruit - answered by someone called "Banana"
user559633
that's yamming absurd
user559633
isn't there a collections dict that keeps a tally of the keys? stackoverflow.com/questions/25191452/…
user559633
yes
There's Counter, but that guy is doing something other than tallying
You mean a SortedDict? There's no builtin, but there's plenty of recipes.
20:25
As there are two apples in his list, but his result has 1: "Apple"
DSM
DSM
I posted an attempt.
user559633
Thanks, wasn't an answer.
user559633
Upvoted yours @DSM
This is soooo an XY problem.
user559633
Yeah
DSM
DSM
20:27
Could be XY. Could also be purely for learning purposes, in which case I'm sure that OrderedDict.fromkeys will be no use at all. :-)
Im not up to par on all the lingo. Does XY mean homework?
user559633
It's a man problem.
user559633
Wherein XX is a woman problem.
@Kevin I think I find the answer!
DSM
DSM
...
user559633
Wherein XY is not one of Jay Z's 99 quandaries.
@DSM I was going to be evil and suggest something like:
from itertools import count
from collections import defaultdict

unique = defaultdict(lambda c=count(1): next(c))

data = ["Apple", "Orange", "Grape", "Orange", "Watermelon", "Apple", "Grape"]
for item in data:
    unique[item]

new_d = {v: k for k,v in unique.iteritems()}
you know we used to talk about which one is correct: (words goes here:) or (words goes here:))
but yeah... my serious answer would have been the same as @DSM
20:32
@Peter yeah...
and although it seems like the first one is better in some cases (easier to parse for example) the latter is the correct one! think about it, what if you would like to write only a smiley inside the parenthesis
this feels wrong:
(:)
so it has to be:
(:))
I agree.
have you ever created a pypi module to answer a question?
"Just `import myModule` and call `foo.work()`"
You must treat the :) as a digraph
@Ffisegydd +1
DSM
DSM
20:35
How can someone vote to close that question as too broad? I'd be surprised if it didn't have a dup target, but it's clearly specific enough to be viable.
user559633
it's objectively (:)) XKCD can go nerd pander itself into a hole
A lot of people do use the incorrect form though.
Including (IIRC) GvR.
Proving once more that he wasn't just wrong about Python 3.
user559633
Yeah, well, GvR thinks 3.x is the way to go
user559633
Wow.
user559633
Hivemind activate, I suppose.
20:38
@Ffisegydd Yeah, I should totally do that next week!
@Martijn how'd your hangout go?
@JonClements Did I mention I hate public speaking? :-)
DSM
DSM
When I first started writing this code I added various callback actions and Easter eggs to the UI to experiment with the api. Now it's more like a game than a tool.
You can watch me be tired (I had lens problems that day) online: plus.google.com/events/c4itt6er35le6ua7gka2o63qd2c
@Martijn I never look with it on camera... this is why I don't that sort of thing :)
@MartijnPieters I finally know how to pronounce your name!! (you looks sound so differently than I expected..)
The accent isn't what I expected... I completely expected the appearance though
@JonClements even after the small black ninja avatar?
@Peter I've seen photos before
oh actually I had too -- but with sound and in motion
it is totally different
20:50
Would have been fun dressing up in a ninja costume though
if I ever do this, I should put a puppy onesie or something... I'd be taken soooooo seriously :)
In Python 4 we should allow float indexing.
a[3.67]
@MartijnPieters sorry I'm laughing... did you mean 40 + 8 ?
@Ffisegydd infinite_list[4/3]
20:51
or 7 * 6
I love this...
@JonClements I typed it up wrong in the notes to copy and paste! :-P
Nope, I didn't properly test-drive my talk.
It only gets worse from there on out.
I found the proper one for you
@Peter umm.... it's got one too many legs... is there one for just three legs (and a longer neck)
@Martijn looks like you had a fairly rapt audience though...
20:57
They were captive; microphones muted!
DSM
DSM
Listening to a Python talk while getting my Java to communicate with my C++ is blowing my mind.
@Martijn ooo... I agree with the constant time thing.. but not sure if foo in {'ham', 'spam', 'eggs'} is a great example...
@JonClements This one only has two legs
You could attach a third
Girls aren't included I guess? :(
1. That is a tiger or something.
21:04
probably not
2. Probably shouldn't post that in here :)
@Ffisegydd why not, it passes googles safe filter :p
1 message moved to Trash
user559633
anyone have ideas for what to present at pycon?
I feel like we've had this discussion before @tristan and I gave you some excellent ideas.
user559633
21:05
i want to present next year, but i don't know what to talk about
"The Emergent Behavior of Pythons Programming Python"
@Ffisegydd why?
You present the results of your study of placing pythons near keyboards, and running the resulting code.
My ideas yesterday were (and I stick by them):
Cabbage.
sopython.
Kevin's jokes.
Martijn Pieters.
@Peter why what? Why I moved it to the trash?
@JonClements I recently timed it; a 1-element tuple and 1-element set are tied, after that the set wins out easily.
21:07
@Ffisegydd yepp -- it was a nice picture, nothing NSFW on it
@Ffisegydd Planning to go to PyCon UK?
@Martijn unfortunately not :(
@Martijn so you're doing a talk on python internals and such... and your first question is about design and composition?
Did the guy read the notes?
ick, £150
@JonClements I didn't mind.
I was glad to have questions! :-P
user559633
I was thinking that maybe I could do a talk about using Python to improve your linux shell environment with helper utils
21:09
@PeterVaro Yes I know it was SFW. But at the same time it was obviously a photo that had adult connotations which could make us look like some "boys club" staring at women. I would hate if someone (male or female) joined the room and saw it and thought "Uhhhh just another bunch of brogrammers" and was put off the community here.
@MartijnPieters stonking analogy... :)
user559633
I put the 'grammers' in brogrammers
@JonClements I got to extend it too later on! :-)
DSM
DSM
If my name were Roger, I could say "I put the rogr in brogrammers". But it's not, so I'm kind of stuck.
Wow - you managed to understand that second question - I didn't grasp a word
21:12
I'd never heard the term brogrammer until I read an article on Wired earlier.
@JonClements Not sure I really did; it would have been closed as 'unclear what you are asking' on SO in seconds.
52
Q: My PC is not a phone - how do I remove the swipey pre-log in screen from Gnome 3?

Journeyman Geek I'm currently running centos 7 (the server with gui config) on a VM. I'd like to keep the log in screen, but the 'phone' style pre-login lock screen that requires a swipe to access the main login screen is annoying. Is there any simple way to disable it and go directly to the log in screen?

Those are the kinds of things that make me dislike Gnome.
I was looking at you thinking umm.... he's bluffing this one... glad to know :)
@davidism just wondering, what ui do you like?
So, I had lens problems, so I had to take them out knowing I'd have no problems reading my notes and larger font in the terminal
then they posted that send-in question in the chat sidebar, with cut-off text to boot.
21:15
@Ffisegydd but we are actually brogrammers aren't we? The Brotherhood of the Cabbage, remember?
XFCE + terminal for most non-editing, non-internet tasks
We changed our name to the Dark Council.
@MartijnPieters I tend to agree with your recommendations - until 3.3 - 3.x was a mess
3.0 and 3.1 were try-outs
by 3.2 the performance was getting under control.
3.3 was awesome, and 3.4 got more of the new cool stuff.
@Peter Sisters are welcome too though :P and seeing a woman in a photo like that might put them off. I'd hate for someone who could potentially be a great part of the community to be pushed away. And yeah as davidism said it's been renamed Dark Council to make it more sinister...
Was Python 2 the same way? Did people complain about it over Python 1 while it slowly got better?
21:18
already the asynchio back-port uses a different name because it is not really quite the same library.
@davidism Back then the Python versions were a little more unorganized.
user559633
@MartijnPieters the aysncio backport meaning concurrent futures?
I remember something major landing in a 1.5.x release, or something.
@Ffisegydd tbh if we scare off a woman because of a picture of them, then I guess I don't want to talk to that woman anymore.. I mean, think about it: does she even know what it is being a man? ;)
Syntax changes needed to make it work in 2.x: trollius.readthedocs.org/en/latest/asyncio.html
I came in a bit before 2.6.
user559633
21:19
Ah, cool. Thanks @MartijnPieters.
user559633
Also, concurrent/parallelism is a ghetto in 2.7. Thank yamming god for 3.4 standardizing it.
Can you take the costume conversation to the RO board if it's really necessary?
user559633
What is the preferred 2.7 async general module, is it trollius?
user559633
concurrent.futures? asyncore? (i'm not trolling, i just seriously never know what is considered the new standard, so i fall back to multiprocessing)
Trollius seems to be adopted by some major projects; Autobahn and Tornado use it when not on Python 3.4.
user559633
21:25
I've never heard of Autobahn and Tornado is the store-brand Twisted. (edit: argh, I'm coming off as a jerk. I'll take it to mean a lack of consensus)
RABBIT was based on Twisted/Autobahn
@Martijn you missed out numerical analysis... you're making it sound like Ruby! :(
@JonClements uhm, where?
On the future of Python thing?
Talk about stupid open ended questions.
user559633
The future of Python is that it will get merged into Ruby
user559633
21:29
Which in turn will get merged into JavaScript
There is no such thing as a stupid question - only stupid people who ask questions.
@Martijn well at least you got questions - I just don't get what they (apart from the one from twitter) it had to do with what you were meant to be presenting about
@JonClements The one unclear one about using custom classes in a tuple was closests.
I'll do a What's new in Python 3.4 talk next week.. lets see what that'll bring.
Oh great... and you now get a "can you recommend any libraries" ?
Did anyone on this hangout actually read what it was meant for?
At AirConf there is limited space too but at least people can posit questions on the page too.
(there's a 'watch live' page)
21:33
They probably just read "/w Martijn" and signed up right away
The AirPair conf costs money (you get to go to the whole virtual conference).
user559633
I'd love a talk on 3.4 that's really "if you're using 2.7.8 now and want to make the jump, here are the changes to your everyday workflow that you need to be aware of (e.g. x now returns an iterator, print requires parens because from future import braces is no longer a joke, reduce is now in functools)
Perhaps that'll lead to a different audience.
do you guys know what would cause, in the context of multithreaded popen calls, print calls to no longer work (every 2 seconds to spit out progress of those threads)?
they were working for about 5 seconds and then just stopped, cpu usage is currently at 90% which suggests the threads are hard at work
try printing to stderr instead of stdout and see what happens
stdout gets cached and delayed. Stderr is time sensitive
21:39
@Martijn interesting... I did a bit of consultancy on a per client basis for the original developers of scrapy
okay, rbrb all!
calling it a night.
@Martijn rbrb... good job sir... thoroughly enjoyed it... thanks for sharing - see ya tomoz
see ya'll!
DSM
DSM
Rhubarb for Martijn.
Ehh, too slow.
@Humdinger is it printing to a file in this case?
21:44
no. Stderr and stdout are OS level operations
are you using py2.7 or 3?
from __future__ import print_function
`import sys`
then
`print('message', file=sys.stderr`)
it should appear just like you are used to with a standard print
(You could also use this syntax: print >> sys.stderr, 'message' )
yeah its not printing anything anymore, perhaps because im using stderr=PIPE, stdin=PIPE within the Popen calls?
that would do it
so what i was doing before was taing the data within stderr=PIPE and printing it if it every 2 seconds
it was working fine with all runs but the last, where i finally got the threads to actually execute the relevant subprocesses, where my CPU usage was cranked up
so basically
21:54
ya. If your cpu load is heavy stdout can defer printing and get inaccurate results. However, you could also have a bug somewhere else
hmmm so if my goal were to give the user feedback as to how far along the processes were %-wise but the program ends up using 90% of the CPU, what would your suggestion be?
Ahh... like a loading bar sort of thing.
but if i cant print anything reliably, how would i be able to implement that?
Normally that is done by "break" sections. Where you say, "ok all this stuff is done, join together, take a quick break, record data , then go again"
plus that allows the cpu to give room to other processes if needs be
(preventing your computer from appearing to freeze up)

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