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15:00
idd
So eg, {a: 1} - is not true, only {a: True} would be true
(apparently at least!)
Well that's the logic in place
but it's clearly supposed to be a switch, so I don't see the point
Even when explicitly testing for True, I would prefer == over is
Weird using a dict for that, looks more appropriate for a set that only contains items that are True...
@Kevin I would too, that's why I asked :)
@JonClements parsed JSON
15:02
@Kevin until you get someone over-riding __eq__ and breaks stuff :)
^^ trololol
Soooo, question: does it really matter? Does the Jury prefer is or == in this context?
The correct approach to explicitly check they're both True objects, is to use is
I vote with Kevin, though I acknowledge Jon's extreme concerns :D
@JonClements What's that old saying... Mankind is forever developing better idiot-proof technology, but nature is forever developing better idiots.
@Kevin yup :)
15:04
@Ian I'd edit that "John" before he bites your leg off.
ooooh
Or should I say "Iain" :P
better?
Me, walking into the office: "Have no fear, David is here!" My coworker: "That's when the fear starts." -_-
Yeah man. Saved yourself.
15:04
haha
Right sod it, I'm leaving it, TY o' wise council
Umm.... that's concerning... apparently if the UK didn't import food and relied on our own stocks, we'd run out of fresh food in a day... how would someone even calculate that?
MATHS.
@Ffisegydd Worse. Stats.
(is fun)
@JonClements source?
15:10
Well, if we have 60% of our own, and import 40%... then... errr....
@Ian don't know - just listening to LBC... some people
in a day?
I'm betting it's a crap paper
Don't forget to carry the 2.
From PEP 285, 'The values False and True will be singletons, like None. Because the type has two values, perhaps these should be called "doubletons"?'
15:11
This confirms that True is True will always give True.
@Kevin thanks, good research
Ahhh.... @Ian no - that's what I didn't get... the presenter didn't make it very clear - the headline is: *We'd go hungry from today if we only ate British food: Nation would run out of things to eat on August 7 each year if we ditched our reliance on imports*

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2718548/We-d-hungry-today-ate-British-food-Nation-run-things-eat-August-7-year-ditched-reliance-imports.html#ixzz39if8TJRY
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@Kevin unless you redefine True to False and False to True?
@JonClements I see your problem now
mail :P
@JonClements The Daily Fail?!
15:12
@Ian I can understand that 60% is up to that time of year... so I'm happier now...
@ypercube Still works :-)
>>> True, False = False, True
>>> True is True
True
@JonClements I'd just started my run on the shops
The presenter said, "if we stopped importing food - we'd run out of food today - August 7th"
Although True is (True is True) will give False if you've been reassigning bools naughtily
@JonClements Ah gotcha. That's a bit less mental
15:13
I just wasn't grokking what the heck he was going on about... now it makes more sense
@JonClements Aye. Although I think we should be self sufficient in all critical areas.
Interesting, GVR's strongest misgiving about introducing booleans to the language was, 'The only issue that weighs at all for me is the tendency of newbies to write "if x == True" where "if x" would suffice.'
cbg @DSM
DSM
DSM
Cabbage, all. Today's entertaining signal problem only doubled my commute time, so there's that.
>>> class VeryBool(bool):
...     def __new__(cls, *a, **kw):
...         return super(VeryBool, cls).__new__(cls, *a, **kw)
...     def __repr__(self):
...         return "Very%s" % bool(self)
...
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases
    type 'bool' is not an acceptable base type
:(
but False is True is False
15:20
@DSM train journey?
DSM
DSM
@Jon: yep.
@DSM they frustrate me, had to sit just outside stations for 45 minutes at times... but didn't mind too much, as would just unpack the laptop, tether to my phone and crack on with some work
What I really did not like at all was being stuck in the underground
@IntrepidBrit apparently to try and combat the food stuff, all government departments, the armed services, schools and hospitals are now going to buy british food even if it's slightly more expensive
Does that imply that we'll avoid Scottish food should they leave us?
@JonClements The question is, will it even be "British"? Or will it end up like manufacturing? Where the last major component/work is done in Britain?
user559633
Yeah, @JonClements that bothers me too and is a regular occurrence in my life (NY subway). I'm fine until I realize that I'm stuck in a train car that is also stuck underground.
15:24
@tristan with no phone signal or internet!
@Ffisegydd Probably. That would bugger stuff up...
No more Whisky in school meals :/
user559633
Yes. And standing in a packed car with people touching me.
DSM
DSM
About a month ago I was stuck on a train which lost its power. They told us that since it was on a bit of a rise, they were going to release the brakes and try to roll the train back to the station. I decided to go to the gym instead of going to work (after we escaped half an hour later) to give them time to fix it.
user559633
America could start selling you Brits more food :) we could be super-Super best friends 5ever
@tristan is 5ever, 4ever and then some?
15:26
@IntrepidBrit I still need to watch that Salmond vs Darling debate... as soon as I heard Darling was heading up the "in" side - I just thought: "oh great - we're obviously not that serious about trying to keep Scotland then..."
user559633
@IntrepidBrit bless your heart for getting that. i really didn't want to explain
@JonClements Problem is - you've got to find an important labour Scotsman, who hasn't done something horrid and/or probably isn't a war criminal
Which boots quite a few of them into touch. Gordon Brown is still liked in Fife, but you need a bit more reach than that
@tristan it could favour both sides of the pond... we need more food, if you have less food, you'll be able to eat less, and not all weigh like baby elephants... it's a win/win!
@JonClements So you're left with Darling. He's not popular per se, but they figure he's respected. It's a pity about the eyebrows really.
user559633
15:30
@IntrepidBrit ahh... it's at player.stv.tv/programmes/salmond-darling
As I understand it, we pay our farmers to not grow corn, just so the supply doesn't outstrip the demand. We could feed a couple extra countries and still stay fat.
user559633
Our south and flyover states really add the weight (heh) to that average too
@tristan Does that mean the UK has been getting thinner? Or everyone else has been getting fatter?
@IntrepidBrit mind you - we're the most obese nation in Europe :)
user559633
I'm from the US. We're getting thinner and other countries are getting fatter. Not that we were the fattest country before anyway. cdc.gov/obesity/images/brfss-self-reported-obesity-2012.gif
15:32
@Ffisegydd OUTOFCHEESE to go along with True and False
@JonClements Hehe; yeah, I meant 15 mins.
@Ffisegydd isnt it supposed to be FILE_NOT_FOUND
Because that needed its own entire section
@JonClements Don't worry, if Scotland goes independent, we'll rob you of the title :)
@IntrepidBrit oh that's cool then - vote yes
although I seriously think yes is going to be disastrous for Scotland :(
user559633
Scotland is possible going independent of England? I thought England controlled Scotland
15:36
@JonClements Nah Scotland will be alright either way. It's just a measure of how well off. iScotland could be an absolutely braw place to live, but what's on offer is basically "ukLite" (or "UK+++++")
this guy is doing the old "ask ever so slightly different questions until SO writes my whole program" scam. Again.
@tristan Both joined in union. Hence the name - the United Kingdom
user559633
Sure, both agreed to union. Like my mail order bride agreed to marry me.
@tristan Actually, Scotland bankrupted itself with the Darien Scheme. So the Scottish nobility "sold Scotland out" to England. (Was actually much, much more complex than that, but you get the gist)
user559633
Reading about the Darien Scheme. It's a hilariously, obviously crap plan.
15:38
James the VI of Scotland was James the I of England BEFORE the Act of Union was signed
DSM
DSM
@Jon: I think it'll be disastrous in the short term, but in the long term it might be healthy for the Scots. It feels like they've gotten too dependent on English largesse (that's a view shared by lots of Scots emigres, including my family.) A similar thing happens here regarding the Quebecois, who are commonly viewed to have an annoying sense of entitlement that makes English Canadians want to punch them in the face.
@tristan But all the cool countries were doing it at the time
user559633
This is the country equivalent of sending a single drone off into the fog of war to build something.
I wish I could depend on English largesse.
@DSM I am all for the Scots deciding what they want to do... I just get the feeling what Salmond is proposing is that "We want to go our own way - but we still want to keep the benefits of being part of the UK"
15:41
You can depend on Cabbage largesse.
user559633
Scotland could be the next Ireland! (a lush landscape plagued by expatriation of its talented youth)
Cabbage enthusiasts, please contribute to my Patreon, so I can continue to deliver quality non-sequiturs.
@tristan Scotland had to try if it wanted to be independent. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to compete with the other nations.
Just feels like me saying to a client: "I don't actually want to do any work for you - but I still expect to be able to invoice you each week at our agreed rates"
For $10,000 a month, I'll make an appearance on weekends.
DSM
DSM
15:43
@JonClements: it's exactly parallel to the Quebecois, then, who forthrightly argue things like "yes, we want to leave; no, we don't want to bear any debt; yes, we want to be able to share a Canadian passport; yes, we want to be able to work in Canada freely; yes, we want to determine Canadian monetary policy", etc. They do this with an impressive lack of shame.
@JonClements To be fair to Salmond, which I often don't feel inclined to do, he actually wanted DevoMax, but that was vetoed by Westminster
@IntrepidBrit I think that would have been an ideal compromise
I disagree. I think devlotion is a "third" tier of politicans we have to support
More power to local government would solve MANY of the issues facing the UK as a whole.
Anyone else think it looks like a precursor to the whole UK/EU thing - try and re-negotiate, if not, fine, we'll threaten to leave kind of thing...
user559633
I thought the EU and the UK were synonymous.
15:45
@JonClements Oh, very much so. It's interested to see the schism because many of the arguments are the same
@JonClements It's weird seeing one person argue for remaining as part of the UK, but leaving Europe
Government falls apart after you have more than 100 constituents anyway. Let's all go back to nomadic tribal living.
@Kevin Let's not. The rest of the world would turn it into a reality TV show. Something like realitytvworld.com/news/…
user559633
Lazy troll aside, I don't really get how the EU is supposed to function.
@tristan Nor does the EU really. Therein lies the problem
DSM
DSM
I think of it like an attempt to bring back the Carolingian Empire.
user559633
15:52
You have Germany acting as an economic tank, with a bunch of states that are just sitting idle (greece, spain, latvia, etc).
@IntrepidBrit Man, I'll never get the opportunity to become a warlord :-(
user559633
As an American, the EU just looks like a handicap on Germany
Well, I guess there's still a chance of a Mad Max style apocalypse.
DSM
DSM
We can always hope!
@JonClements CBG
15:53
@tristan The Germans are smart. Don't worry, they benefit heavily from the EU. The old Deutschmark used to suffer from being far, far, far too strong in comparison to other economies - so they couldn't export. The other poorer countries bring down the strength of the Euro, so Germany can remain competitive
@DSM You've clearly never been to Hull
Ah Hull...
@limelights how goes it!?
Place where dreams are made.
user559633
In your view, Germany benefits by being able to sell its goods to its neighbors?
im great thanks! :) just got back from 5 weeks in the US - happly married! :D
15:55
@tristan as opposed to selling them to no one?
user559633
Couldn't it just...lower prices on export without having to buy all of Greece's artifacts?
@limelights whoa. Congrats!
@limelights That was quick ;)! (congrats!)
@IntrepidBrit what? :)
user559633
I'm being hyperbolic, but only slightly.
15:56
Thanks all!
Well, the UK is showing the most economic growth - there's only 3 countries that really "power" the EU, which are Germany, France and the UK
@JonClements Damn straight it is, and we'll continue to do so yet. As long as no-one realises our housing market is going to implode ;)
And those three are basically bailing out the rest of them
@limelights Just being daft, ignore me ;)
user559633
But why bail out the laggards?
15:57
@tristan I think it comes down to the fact, no one wants to admit it really doesn't work
@IntrepidBrit :D
user559633
That's the most American thing I've ever read @JonClements.
Has anyone ever worked in the US+
@tristan It's bad for tourism when your neighbors devolve into anarchy.
I assume there must be some genuine economic reason for it @tristan, I just don't know it.
user559633
15:58
@limelights Yes. I'm American.
so just keep putting sticky plasters on everything, and going - everything's fine! It's working great! Nothing to see here... move on...
@tristan i was stupid, i assumed most was europeans :) - i'll rephrase, has anyone european here ever gone and worked in the US?
user559633
Why not just let Germany colonize?
Martijn did IIRC though he doesn't seem to be about right now.
Of course, Germany and France are a bit more nationalistic - ignore rules and will spend as little as possible for bailouts... so that leaves the UK... we're such a bloody soft touch it annoys me
user559633
16:00
From what I've read, Germany has been doing a lot of buyouts.. especially for Greece.
@tristan I think they've tried that twice... didn't work out... :)
user559633
Only because your and my country stopped them last time.
@tristan The biggest point of the EU is to foster stability. Letting a country go crashing down is against that initial policy. Not to mention ALL of their economies are tied together now
user559633
And because Russia is cold and someone didn't play Risk as a child.
@limelights The buggers wouldn't let me ;)
@JonClements Colonising? More than twice. I think we've repeatedly stolen their colonies from them haha
16:01
Ahhh, I'd forgotten about: There is one other important part of the revenue calculations: the UK rebate, which returns to the UK two-thirds of its payments.
@tristan Or too much. And forgot that the little plastic figurines were representing thousands of lives...
@JonClements The only reason why the UK is part of the EU. Otherwise we'd be funding it to a demented degree
@IntrepidBrit What was the reason?
DSM
DSM
I'm a little surprised. I expected my Euroscepticism to be a minority opinion.
I'm looking into starting moving over there
user559633
Part of that is because Germany doesn't know how to play. It's like you invite Germany for a game of kickball and it scores a base and then gets confused and tries to murder everyone on the other team
16:02
@limelights Unless you have a checkered past, you should be fine
user559633
@limelights where are you planning to move?
@IntrepidBrit ah :) I think so :)
@tristan California
@DSM You'll find that the predominant opinion is that the Euro needs to reform
user559633
Not a bad choice :)
Ahhh.... news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start - then click on "net contribution" - that shows the slackers :)
16:04
@DSM But it's often posted as a IN/OUT style question, when the solution should be FIX
user559633
Looks like you should kick Greece, Poland, Spain out of the superfriends club.
@tristan Greece should never have been allowed in.
user559633
Can I join the EU? If I give you a dollar, I'd be a better member.
@tristan :) Yeah, I think it's the right place for me and the family for a forseable future
user559633
I'd contribute ~5.8 billion more euros :)
16:06
LOL
I don't think they'd have you ;)
user559633
@limelights i peeked at your profile. yeah, america has a lot more going on than sweden, but our benefits are far worse.
user559633
@IntrepidBrit yeah, I suppose you're right, from that chart, it looks like a system that's designed to lose money.
@tristan yeah, that's definitely true but I think we'd be more happy overall there than we're here currently.
Okay I'm off. Apparently my RAID backup array has gone down. Don't like being without backups
Until another day folks.
Rhubarbday
16:08
@IntrepidBrit rbrb - take care
@IntrepidBrit rbrb!
DSM
DSM
ruabhàrr!
user559633
rb @IntrepidBrit
heya @Tom - you waiting for a mod to merge accounts or something?
16:10
anyone has any experience in PyQt5 + Python 3.4 + cx_Freeze 0.9 + Mac OS X 10.9?
cbg btw
user559633
holy lol @PeterVaro i'm going to go pour one out for you
DSM
DSM
@PeterVaro: "pouring one out" is when you take a drink (usually liquor) and pour some on the ground in memorial of someone.
okay -- but I still don't get it :/
DSM
DSM
The suggestion is that your situation is not enviable.
16:16
@tristan are you pity me because of my setup ? ;) is that it?
okay.. then I get it.. :P
actually it looks like not -- I've been tried everything in the last 20 hours and nothing
neither with Py2App nor with cx_Freeze
user559633
sorry - was debugging @PeterVaro. and yeah, latest python + latest OSX (with that buggered App Store "security" feature) + freeze
not with a vanilla OS X install -- nothing
but my app is working -- the only thing I couldn't do is create a standalone bundle
user559633
what happened why you tried?
DSM
DSM
Is bundling so important to people?
user559633
@DSM distribution to users.
16:18
@DSM I guess so, because compiling PyQt5 alone takes 30 minutes
@tristan +1
@DSM I don't think an average user would wait for it that long
@tristan I have two mysterious error messages:
user559633
last time i bundled, i used py2appand had to pass it swtiches to find the --iconfile. I had to step in and do the job of a linker too.
objc[26738]: Class NotificationReceiver is implemented in both /Users/petervaro/Documents/coub/./build/coublet-0.5.70.app/Contents/MacOS/QtWidgets and /usr/local/Cellar/qt5/5.3.1/lib/QtWidgets.framework/Versions/5/QtWidgets. One of the two will be used. Which one is undefined.
QObject::moveToThread: Current thread (0x7f8828633a20) is not the object's thread (0x7f882841faa0).
Cannot move to target thread (0x7f8828633a20)
user559633
also, an average user won't know how to run python, so having some silly .app to mash a mouse button on is critical
and:
This application failed to start because it could not find or load the Qt platform plugin "cocoa".
@tristan exactly, thank you.
(especially when it is a home-user app)
user559633
Yep! My last one was a .app for elderly people and schoolteachers to use.
DSM
DSM
16:21
I guess that makes sense.
user559633
So uh. Yeah. Bundling.
the second one seems easy: although each of the three platform dylibs are in the .app/Contents/MacOS/platforms
the first one is -- I guess -- is about that I have two Qt installations -- well ofcourse, one in the /use/local and one at the .app/Contents/MacOS
user559633
That output reads like the issue that I had. After getting my app, I hopped into the dist/example.app and did some symlinks -- ./Contents/Resources/example/lib/pythonVERSION/example ./Contents/Resources/example
however what I don't understand is why both are running?
user559633
Maybe a class import is getting "a miss" in your pythonpath and is going to the site-packages/system
16:25
I specified all PyQt5 imports in the setup.py
user559633
Sure you did, kiddo, sure you did.
@tristan the funny thing is: cx_Freeze does not put anything into Resources
all files are in MacOS
user559633
I was kidding before, but talking about this does make me want to drink.
(the Frameworks folder is also empty)
@tristan yeah, well it makes me want to kill myself -- but let's move on :)
user559633
I think this is probably question worthy. My experience way back with cx_freeze was totally a "once you know the dance, it's easy, but the dance steps aren't communicated well by the instructor"
16:27
all righty then -- I will write the question then
Tom
Tom
@JonClements Hi Jon - Yeah I am
user559633
16:39
Is the reason why logging is different for parallel code re-use of file descriptors?
16:59
@tristan any comments on this one ?
user559633
will eat and then look @PeterVaro :)
user559633
hopefully, someone else will have solved it by then
:D:D I hope so
user559633
i hate packaging
-- since yesterday I hate it too
user559633
17:06
i spent like 2 weeks packaging for various osx, windows versions
I don't have 2 more extra weeks tbh..
(I know, no one else has either..)
user559633
yeah, i hill climbed it. i should have just posted a "halp! "
DSM
DSM
I just upvoted an answer which had 1689 upvotes and 0 downvotes. Impressive ratio.
user559633
sounds fixed.
@flexo I have edited my answer. Could you consider undeleting it now, If you feel its good now ? stackoverflow.com/questions/25187488/python-strftime-utc-offset
17:16
Flexo won't get that ping unless he's been in this room recently
Not sure what the proper process is for requesting an un-delete... Maybe a post on Meta?
You could flag the answer with a custom message
@DSM that guy reaped more rep with just 1 ans than me to the date, :(
DSM
DSM
I think megarep answers are often about timing, like being the first to answer a basic question in a language with the canonical answer. So there's nothing to be done for it, except answer basic questions in newish languages and hope they become popular. :-)
user559633
Yeah @DSM. Basic questions just balloon up.
DSM
DSM
I thought of playing that game when Swift came out, but real life got in the way of my schemes. Probably for the best.
Just remember: KevinScript will rocket us all to the top.
DSM
DSM
Hopefully I can learn enough to explain whether it's from kevin.stdlib import * or (kevin/stdlib/* -> .) or FILLFROM stdlib locals.{} to the n00bs..
I'm looking to get the first and second question of KevinScript down.
1. What is KevinScript?
2. Who is this Kevin who wrote it?
DSM
DSM
We should collaborate on an O'Reilly book. "Beginning KevinScript (from the people who brought you cabbages)".
Answers are:
1. KevinScript is a scripting language written by Kevin (See question 2)
2. https://www.gravatar.com/avatar/3df6fdde70a4d2590b9b8494f3edfb56?s=128&d=identicon&r=PG is Kevin.
user559633
17:27
sure, everyone asks "what is kevinscript," but no one ever asks "how is kevinscript"
All programs, when read aloud, form amusing short stories. He's actually been posting in code the whole time.
result = # of stars
DSM
DSM
Heh
Kevinscript's first public commit was in May, so that makes it a Taurus. Consult your local newspaper's astronomy section for troubleshooting tips.
"You will meet a tall mysterious man in the near future". This is metaphorical; you will encounter a syntax error with a tall stack trace, and a mysterious cause.
DSM
DSM
I used to be the observatory coordinator in grad school. A cute girl was once talking to me after a tour (hey, it happens!) when she said "astrology" when she meant "astronomy". I have word problems all the time myself -- blanked on "vestigial" the other day -- but it was hard not to smile.
I can never keep the onomy/ology dichotomy straight. (or is that a dichology?)
17:44
speaking of cx_freeze... for windows executables, what do y'all prefer?
user559633
@Al.Sal web apps. f windows.
I prefer Linux
DSM
DSM
18:05
If I had a quarter for every time I saw a DNA-complement question I'd have enough to hire a KevinScript tutor.
also... anyone used xlwt-future? I'm moving some code to python 3 and it looks like the OG xlwt isn't supported :C
DSM
DSM
Urf. Invalid syntax; typos; probable instance/class variable confusion; and built-in shadowing. Itertools questions are much more fun.
I like cabbage.
DSM
DSM
So say we all.
Boy I sure love getting the "if you don't understand just don't post" retort
I'm feeling reeeeal helpful now.
especially when I only posted because the OP explicitly asked "why am I getting downvotes"? It's because your question is unclear, that's why.
18:17
Okay, this is dangerous. I feel that if I stayed here very long I would start to like you people and fail to get any work done.
flees
DSM
DSM
Ahh, Jenn; we knew her, Horatio.
@Kevin: usually I manage to ignore stuff like that. Once I was in a bad mood and so posted a link to my answers under a certain tag and basically said "You can judge for yourself if I'd have been likely to answer your question if you'd helped." Felt a little sixth-grade, but I was pretty annoyed.
I'm going to let it go now. Ok. letting go. hrrrng. Nope, still mad. dang.
DSM
DSM
Tell you what-- I'm going to go have lunch, and we'll see if that helps you any.
Couldn't hurt.
@JennD. don't flee... embrace the dark side... :)
18:25
This room provides a really good focus for my procrastination.
@davidism glad to know we're good for something :p
This room is a useful release valve for my weirdness. Much better than shouting at strangers as I pass them in the hallway.
No one will know you're an eccentric, but wise, person unless you terrorize some randoms.
@Kevin you do know given the general population of the room you're perfectly normal?
18:41
I suppose so. You can't throw a stone in here without hitting a dog, octocat, kryptonian, or ninja.
selenium.common.exceptions.NoSuchWindowException , how to solve this exception ?
@odai make sure the window exists? :)
how to ?
def window_exists():
    try:
        #do something here that tries to access the window
        return True
    except NoSuchWindowException:
        return False
;-)
18:44
@Kevin I always refresh the page and remove "possible" from the auto-comment
sometimes if I'm annoyed I change it to "exact duplicate" instead
I always like to leave myself a path of retreat, just in case.
Oh, I was totally wrong about it being a dupe? Well I did say "possible"...
They always seem to get a couple of answers though...
They do it for the point$
cbg
Yo
18:50
i get this exception too :
Unable to find element with css selector
though i'm doing this : time.sleep(10)
choosing_type = driver.find_element_by_css_selector("#radioOneWay").click()
quick question. why doesn't this work on windows 8?
    if sys.argv[-1] != "asadmin":
        script = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[0])
        params = " ".join([script] + sys.argv[1:] + ["asadmin"])
        shell.ShellExecuteEx(lpVerb="runas", lpFile=sys.executable, lpParameters=params)
        sys.exit(0)
dunno, I'm still on 7
the suckiness of windows increases exponentially with each new version. do not upgrade at any cost
ok.
check my Q above mr.@Kevin
18:59
The "Unable to find element with css selector" error usually occurs when it's unable to find an element with that css selector.
Are you sure there is a #radioOneWay element on the page?

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