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2:02 PM
the polar is purely branchless, for what it's worth
 
a quaternion rotation should always be possible
 
Don't those just encode regular rotations? I've never used them.
 
they are rotations but avoid certain problems of Euler angles. most notably gimbal lock.
 
@Kevin There was, in the 1970s if I remember correctly, some controversy about a program optimistically called "The Last One," which was supposed to take away the need for programming altogether. Inevitably the company crashed and burned.
 
@MisterMiyagi sounds good
 
2:06 PM
Hmm, I wonder if cross(V, i) + cross(V, j) would do it? At least one of the cross products will be nonzero, and adding two vectors perpendicular to V will give a third vector perpendicular to V...
Or could there be a corner case where cross(V,i) == -cross(V,j)? Then their sum would be (0,0,0)
 
yeah, think V in the xy plane in between i and j (45 degree azimuthal angle)
 
@holdenweb "Crashed and burned" -- yeah, the Doom Laser used in the 70s was pretty imprecise, so it often caused structural collapses and fires. The current version is much better.
 
have you considered looking at the vector in a 2D z, x+y plane? flipping it is trivial there, and it should have a well-defined ground-state as well.
 
@MisterMiyagi I'm not sure what you mean
 
me neither, come to think of it
 
2:09 PM
Now it'll just bore a perfectly vertical 10cm shaft through your computer tower and any apartments above or below yours
 
Hi All,

I've a python script I've written, and I'm not sure where I'm going wrong with it:
https://bpaste.net/show/CG2T and sample of the data I feed into it: https://bpaste.net/show/dT-l

At line 34 it prints that it's found a subgroup and the subgroup name correctly,
At line 36 it should run the function again, using the found subgroup as the group entry to the function however I'm not getting the result I expect.
 
hello
 
I do think an approach of "choose a new frame of reference so that at least one dimensional coordinate is zero, then do easy 2d rotation, then revert back to the original frame of reference" would work... IF there's a branchless edgecaseless way to choose a new frame of reference
 
Pretty sure it's something really stupid, and various people at different places (IRC) etc have tried to assist me. I've even tried debugging using the debugger but that confused me further!
 
it's a recursive function without a return; is that intended?
I guess that can be OK since it just prints
 
2:14 PM
@djsmiley2k what result do you expect?
 
@AndrasDeak yes. I realise I should likely do something 'more intelligent' but my brain broke when trying to do that.
 
@Kevin are we talking unit vectors only?
 
@MisterMiyagi so if it finds subgroup X, it should run the function again, looking for subgroup X, and eventually it'll find that the "Members Column" is showing IP. And then it prints the IP address
 
@MisterMiyagi I think you can assume that, normalizing is trivial, because (0,0,0) is excluded
 
If I run it, so it's only 1 level deep (i.e. the group I search for is directly linked to a IP address) then it does print the IP address as expected
 
2:16 PM
Ideally I'd like an approach that works on a V with any nonzero magnitude, but I can require ||V|| = 1 if necessary
 
@MisterMiyagi the aim of the script, is to give me all the IP addresses, of any node, in the group I provide.
 
But as Andras says, conversion to and fro shouldn't be too hard
But now I must tear away from the siren's call of geometry so I can look at the first actually Python-related question of the day
 
@djsmiley2k If I'm following correctly, there should be no need for recursion. If I input "All_Office-365-SMTP-Public-Mail-Servers" you would expect "Office-365-IMAP4-SMTP-134.170.68.0", for all rows that start with "All_Office-365-SMTP-Public-Mail-Servers"? What's the complicating factor here that's made you approach it this way?
You presumably want to strip everything out of that which isn't relevant to the IP address itself?
 
@djsmiley2k the second link shows that it does, no?
there is only a single IP in that group
 
Could you give some specific example input and expected output please?
 
2:27 PM
Hey, anyone has ever used CVXPY library?
 
yeah sure
 
@djsmiley2k why are the two runs there with different output? What changed?
 
in the second run, I imput the 'sub' group, directly
 
Looks like the difference between the runs is what is entered during the input("group to search for: ") prompt. Oops beaten
 
so i take the output of the first run, and use it in the second run, and it works as expected.
So basically, that's what I wanted the recursion to do....
As some of these objects are 10's of groups deep.
 
2:29 PM
But I don't know what you expected, which is why I asked for example output for a defined input
 
I'm guessing that the desired output for your first run is:

tim@vbox ~/scripts $ ./members4.py
group to search for: Amazon_ec2_Networks
Searching for: Amazon_ec2_Networks
Found subgroup: amazon-ec2-35.152.0.0
35.152.0.0
Found subgroup: amazon-ec2-35.176.0.0
35.176.0.0
Found subgroup: amazon-ec2-35.160.0.0
35.160.0.0
Found subgroup: amazon-ec2-52.58.0.0
52.58.0.0
 
ok, so I'd like the output of both of the example runs:

tim@vbox ~/scripts $ ./members4.py
group to search for: Amazon_ec2_Networks
Searching for: Amazon_ec2_Networks
Found subgroup: amazon-ec2-35.152.0.0
Found subgroup: amazon-ec2-35.176.0.0
Found subgroup: amazon-ec2-35.160.0.0
Found subgroup: amazon-ec2-52.58.0.0
35.152.0.0
35.176.0.0
35.160.0.0
52.58.0.0
the ordering isn't so important, just that I get all the IP's at the end
i.e. I don't need the 'found subgroup:' info, I just stuck that in there to check it was hitting the if statement correctly.
 
Right ok. My regex aversion reflexes are kicking in but I can imagine wanting IPs out of a string and there's probably an answer pre-made for me to use
 
so the recursion will never return anything, given your data
 
Ok, I think I understand. The biggest problem right now is that recursively calling checkGroup won't cause the code to iterate over the entire csv again looking for rows with that name. It will recurse and only check to see whether the current row has that name.
 
2:33 PM
@Kevin ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! yes
 
Kevin: I'm watching all thenewboston's stuff on youtube on tkinter to try to learn this stuff.
It's funky
 
Should I load the entire csv into a list, and then recurse over that in the function?
 
Hmm, not sure whether a list is necessary. I can't remember if a DictReader can be iterated over more than once.
 
You don't need recursion. I'll try put together an example if Spyder would stop randomly freezing on me
 
Oh, I presumed it couldn't (hense the comment and commented out command putting row into rows[]
@roganjosh even when it's 10 levels deep?
group -> group -> group -> group -> Host Node with IP
 
2:35 PM
@Kevin nope, it just gives one dict per row
 
What does 10 levels mean? Your output doesn't store anything about where there IP came from
 
I wrote this in nano as well, which is likely not helping.
@roganjosh the example CSV is only 2 levels deep
 
@djsmiley2k if you want to go that deep, it is likely faster to build a proper indexing structure (i.e. a dict) where you can just lookup groups
 
Why couldn't you just keep parsing your way along the string, delimited by commas, and collect in a dict?
Gah, Kevin'd by MisterMiyagi
 
Maybe I need a bigger example to explain it.
@MisterMiyagi This is just a 'few times' script that I'm using for some firewall work I'm doing
i'm not hugely bothered about performance in this case.
 
2:37 PM
But a dict is actually easier than recursion
 
I also mean faster in the sense of "less of a headache to write correctly"
 
Currently, you example output doesn't store anything about where the IP address comes from
 
lol
@roganjosh Oh, I don't care
 
Then, I'll go back to "what does 10 level deep" mean?
 
I don't care which group or subgroup or subsubsubgroup it came from
k, give me a sec and I'll do a more 'complicated' csv
 
2:38 PM
No, you don't need to
 
Amazon_ec2_Networks,amazon-ec2-35.152.0.0,,
 
I just want some kind of affirmation that the problem is simply that you want to get IP addresses out of the strings. That's it. Or am I missing something?
 
@djsmiley2k I'm thinking something like bpaste.net/show/hADp
 
so, that is the group Amazon_ec2_Networks, which contains a group...
 
But we don't care about groups
 
2:39 PM
@roganjosh @roganjosh only the strings where the group is correct
 
Should work even if subgroups can have subgroups, ten levels deep. If a group can be its own subgroup, it might crash, and if two groups can have the same subgroup, it might produce duplicate output; but other than that I feel pretty good about it
 
Right, let me put something together and see if it's correct because I think we're saying the same thing but from different angles
 
@Kevin that looks right to me
@Kevin duplicate output is fine, groups might eventually be their own grandparent, but in those cases I'll just 'deal with it'
@roganjosh what @Kevin has done looks awesome
I didn't know you could cast the data into a list like that :O
(just a newb tryin to get on with his work
 
And collecting the data into a list instead of just printing it is easy enough: bpaste.net/show/qDO7
If you're running this on Big Data, iterating lots of times over the entire csv might be a bit slow. If that's a problem, it might make sense to construct a tree or graph, which can be iterated over more efficiently
 
that's beautiful.
 
2:44 PM
Definitely overkill for a five line csv though
 
I threw my 6000 rows at it, and it came back fast enough that I couldn't tell, so it's all good :)
Now I just need to put it into a website, hahaha
this is the funny thing, I write these tools to help myself at work, and then it's like..... how do I share it with my teammates who aren't as ofay with linux as I am?
 
@djsmiley2k Putting them in a website is a very practical way of making stuff available.
Though it does, of course, require access to server resources.
 
Distributing Python programs to the Pythonless masses has never been a seamless task
It's... Seamlessless. Seamful.
 
Alternatively, point them at clear instructions of installing conda/Jupyter then put things out as notebooks?
 
my VM can run the server (infact it's already running something...)
Ah crap, I forgot the subnets XD
 
2:50 PM
lol docker
 
hmmmm if I yield row["IP"] + " " + row["Subnet"] I wonder how badly it'll break
:O THAT JUST WORKS?!
:O
 
You should be able to freely change the contents of the yield, since the function doesn't base any decisions on that data
 
Hmmm maybe not, getting no networks, ever.
/me goes to look at the data again
 
Changing the yield statement as you describe gives me ['35.152.0.0 255.255.0.0', '35.176.0.0 255.255.0.0', '35.160.0.0 255.255.0.0', '52.58.0.0 255.255.0.0'], which looks right-ish
 
ooo ok, maybe we really don't have TACACS access for any networks, I'm supprised tho
(that's what I tested it against as I knew the group was HUGE)
heh, confused myself because I bodged the test data
that's not the real subnets for the amazon ip ranges.
Ok, anyone want to put me a website or something that explains how I could maybe run this script, from a browser?
I guess I could just google it, but knowing my luck I'll end up like I did with this thing - spent a day looking as PANDAS before finding I really didn't need it
 
2:57 PM
Flask is a popular choice around here for getting one's web server to play nicely with Python
 
Ok, so I have nginx setup (apparently, I don't recall!) - I'll look at how to use flask and nginx
 
you don't need nginx
Is this an internal application? The first part would be to put together the app, don't muddy your understanding by throwing NginX into the mix just yet
That's if you choose to go via Flask. If you get the app running on the development server, a single command is all you need to be able to run it on gunicorn, and you can worry about nginx at the end
 
I've only used Flask for medium-sized multi-page projects. I wonder if there's something more lightweight for rendering a single page.
Half-serious proposal: cgi
 
@roganjosh it's more a case of nginx is already serving up some pages for other things (simple html pages).
 
@Kevin web.py?
 
3:02 PM
this is entirely internal, and limited to my own team already, so I'm not majorly overly concerned about security
 
@djsmiley2k sure, but you can test the waters with Flask before trying to hook it up with nginx to see if it suits you
 
(i'm a network admin by trade, I'll make sure no one can get to it)
 
@djsmiley2k Famous last words
 
@roganjosh nod - i see. Make sure it 'works' and then proxy it via nginx from a normal port etc.
@Dair lol yes I know :)
 
@Dair If I can't do import theLibrary; theLibrary.serve("<html><body>Hello, world!</body></html>"), it's not lightweight enough ;-)
 
3:03 PM
I'll just turn the vm off on my machine
 
Just run the development server that comes with Flask on localhost
 
ok. I presume the using a virtual env is very much reccomended?
 
watch, years later you'll be asked to add more features to this. You'll ask a question on SO but SO will tell you things like: "Why did you hand roll your own CGI? Why are you not using a production server?" and you'll be like it's not necessary and you'll site us. And they'll be like don't listen to SO listen to us.
 
@Dair :D
I'm so greatful btw to you all for your help.
Been on a mega rubbish downward spirial lately, and I tend to turn to writing small scripts and stuff to relax, and I just oculdn't quite get my head around this.
I think my 'bad' way of adding everything to a list and iterating over it would of worked, but thank you everyone.
 
Writing tree traversal algorithms from scratch requires a corkscrew-shaped mind
 
3:09 PM
@Kevin I resemble that remark! :D
 
@PM2Ring Resemble? Should that be resent?
 
Tis a joke ;)
 
or is that too unfriendly for SO :P
 
@djsmiley2k Sounds a bit like BFS, which would work. Without recursion, even, which is nice if your subgroups can be nested by more than 999 layers
 
Oi, I resemble that remark!.
 
3:10 PM
@djsmiley2k I'm happy to see you enjoyed your Room 6 experience.
 
@Kevin haha our firewalls aren't quite that bad.
@PM2Ring My.... what now?!
There isn't a bill to pay is there?!
 
@Dair Yes, it was an intentional malappropism.
 
Ok, flask is installed (need to stop typoing to 'flash'. No one wants flash).
 
I feel like, of all chatrooms, the Python chatroom would be the most opposed to tree-traversals because Pythonistas tend to avoid recursion...
 
Aug 20 at 9:35, by PM 2Ring
Imagine that you won a competition, and the prize is a free session with a Python think-tank who normally charge $1000 per hour. Don't waste that prize!
 
3:12 PM
@PM2Ring I really wish I could charge 10$ an hour for my services lmao.
 
I once wrote a recursive tree traversal algorithm that created its own call stack of unlimited size so I could use it on tall trees without crashing
 
I know my company charges £500/day for me to come and rip your network cables out.
 
It was horrible
 
shocking I know.
errrhmmmm these flask tutorials...
 
@Kevin There's a pattern called stack of iters that can be good for stuff like that. chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/6?m=42721686#42721686
 
3:15 PM
lets try hello world :D
 
Skimming over the linked document, it looks similar to how I did it
 
import flask
print("Hello, World!")
 
@Dair We avoid recursion for recursion's sake. But if the problem domain is naturally recursive, like tree processing generally is, then recursive code is appropriate. And if your tree depth is >1000, recursion's probably the least of your worries.
 
but seems it's overly complicated then? XD
 
wim
3:18 PM
@PM2Ring used that many times in AoC puzzles (using a collections.deque in a while loop)
 
Ah, I found my code. pastebin.com/5JDfCguM
 
wim
didn't know it had a name
 
elif n %2 == 0: what is this heresy
 
I love recursive generators, eg stackoverflow.com/a/41778581/4014959
 
Mine's a little hairier since I wanted to abstract out the "engine". The recursive function itself has no knowledge of the stack
 
3:20 PM
@Kevin Somebody trying to prove the Collatz Conjecture?
 
Yeah, me, since age eight. Still working on it.
 
wim
I try to avoid recursion not because of the poor support in the Python language, but because iterative approaches are generally more readable/understandable
 
Not the way I do them :>
 
@Arne Oops, sorry - got dragged away. Just wondering what the easiest way of having tox run multiple Python versions is. It can't be right to run tox from poetry, since tox creates its own virtualenvs. And Circle CI doesn't appear to have any canned multi-Python images.
 
@wim And it's a nice logical name, too. IIRC, there's a rather cute one in heapq
 
wim
3:21 PM
for some reason recursive code is terribly confusing for all but the most simple cases.
 
@wim Recursive data structures often respond well to recursive solutions. Most common data processing problems don't require recursion.
 
wim
@PM2Ring is it a different name if it's a queue of iterators? like a FIFO?
 
I'm sure the Haskel fans would disagree, since they have to use recursion to do looping.
 
was that serious, because it's giving me an error:

Error: Failed to find Flask application or factory in module "flask_test". Use "FLASK_APP=flask_test:name to specify one.
 
@djsmiley2k Semi-serious, you could omit print from that
 
3:23 PM
I find recursive code confusing if the developer's motivation for using recursion was "because my professor told me I have to use it for this assignment"
 
heh
the print statement just printed out to the console? XD
 
wim
@holdenweb wouldn't you run tox as usual, and the poetry install would run in each tox env?
 
@wim Maybe, but I haven't heard it. I've used both flavours. I guess you could just call it a queue of iters.
 
However, I can telnet on localhost to the port at least...
Need to fix up vbox's forwarding which isn't working
 
wim
which was the AoC puzzle when there was a maze built using regex syntax...it was a really difficult one.
 
3:25 PM
printing zero through ten using recursion is more complicated than doing it with a for loop. Printing the values of every node in a tree in in-order order using recursion is less complicated than doing it with a stack of iterables/indices
 
(I actually don't know if that does what it leads me to believe I think it does)
 
> * Running on http://0.0.0.0:5000/ (Press CTRL+C to quit)
That'll help!
And I've got an error page from flask, excellent!!! Thanks guys :)
I'll go read up on webforms so these guys here can submit a group to search for
 
wim
 
@Dair Oh, ok, although that doc makes it sound recursive. I tried learning Haskell several years ago, but I stopped after a month or so because my brain was starting to melt. ;)
 
@wim Sounds reasonable: but presumably you have to get poetry to use tox's env?
[light dawns]: poetry is Python version-agnostic! Thanks.
 
3:35 PM
@PM2Ring It recursion disguised as loops documented as loops disguised as recursion
 
Typical.
 
wim
@holdenweb Poetry already checks if you're in a venv and uses that one if you are
 
Me: If I needed to parse a regex I would simply write a regex-parsing-regex
You: Stephen Cole Kleene proved that's impossible.
Me: rip to your grandpa but I'm different
 
wim
do you even code, bro
 
(Ok, I don't actually know who proved it, so I just picked a likely culprit. Don't fact check me please)
(Or do, because I kind of want to know)
 
3:39 PM
@Kevin Technically some implementations of regex are actually variants of regex that are not regexes, and instead turing complete. So in theoretical practice you could parse theoretical regex with practical regex.
 
Recursive regexen are not invited to the regex family reunion
 
@Kevin But family reunions are one of the familiar regular operations.
 
@djsmiley2k here's a toy program for you: MVP?. I mean, some things are pretty terrible but I'm trusting you'll make some attempt to fix them. I was playing around and found something about render_template_string that I think is a bug, so it made sense that I just used your problem as an example and created a toy for you at the same time
And if it is a bug, I'm very confused about Python strings. So this could be an interesting afternoon
 
> id="do_the_needful"
haha high5.
 
To run it, you need your CSV in the same directory, then export FLASK_APP=app.py (assuming that's what you call it), export FLASK_DEBUG=1 (if it starts crashing which it probably will) and flask run
 
3:48 PM
also you put jquery into a 1 form webpage? :D
 
Well, I just wanted to cram everything into a single file, which happened to highlight an issue in itself with render_template_string
 
I was thinking of 2 pages, non dynamic, etc.... 1 page with the 'search box' on it, you submit it, flask goes ahha yes give me the datas yumyum and then runs the script...
you know the greatest problem I have now? It's a friends birthday and we're partying hard tonight...
 
As I said, "it's pretty terrible" but it's a full circuit of your workflow
 
by monday I'll know nothing!
 
You're welcome
 
wim
3:52 PM
@Arne importlib.metadata looks handy, thanks for the tip
kind of a shame it still produces an email message instance (wat?) instead of a Python dict, but whatever, at least we have something stdlib for this now.
 
Ahaha, the best part of building that whole thing is that my issue just came down to a global variable and a function sharing a name. TypeError: Can't compile non template nodes left me wandering around GitHub. What a day.
 
@roganjosh Cheers mon, I'm off home now, thanks everyone for the amazing help. you're all stars!
 
4:06 PM
Anyone have some reading on philosophy of types of queues or somethign like this? (e.g. - I have an app that recieves an event, stores some data, makes some calls, etc.)
(I figure have 2 queues, one where the consumer stores the data, the 2nd where the consumer makes the calls)
things like this----basic queue/consumer organization, maybe
 
I am perpetually frustrated by the lack of "philosophy" resources like the one you're looking for
 
ah, bummer! i now join you in said frustration
 
There's lots of resources for answering "how", but very little answering "why" and "when"
 
hah. that's exactly what i'm looking for (why and when)
 
4:26 PM
@wim the footer in the docs claims it's an implementation detail, and it's supposed to be used like a dict.. which begs the question why it's something different then, but yeah. Glad it's there at all.
 
Ok, if I can find any vector W that is not parallel to vector V, then I can find a vector U that's perpendicular to V by doing U = V x W. But I think even finding W is hard
 
@Kevin (x'=y, y'=-z, z'=x) should work
 
Hmm, promising
 
4:50 PM
I'm assuming the answer is "yes and it's been ignored" but is it known that "show 6 more" on the star board is completely useless because it doesn't scroll?
 
@MisterMiyagi Darn, I think this fails for V = (1,-1,-1). It produces W = (-1, 1, 1), which is parallel to V because W * -1 == V
 
nm, it seems that multiple scrollbars are confusing
 
I'm pretty sure that any affine transformation matrix M will have some corner case where V is parallel to V*M. I have a vague suspicion that in three dimensions, you can additionally prove that V != (0,0,0). If so, then no affine transformation can find a suitable W for any nonzero V
 
wim
@Arne hmm, that's weird, because email headers are case insensitive
is that obj case insensitive on keys too? because that's a big stretch from the dict's API to say "use it the same like a dict"
 
Hi everyone
 
I have been thinking of asking this for a long time but is there any free code review site so that when I start doing projects I can get my code checked?
 
wim
it's probably because the metadata file is actually stored as an email, as crazy as that is
 
@Kevin come on, that's just a finite number of cases where it doesn't work
 
wim
so it has non-unique keys such as Requires-Dist
some people tried to change it to a dict in PEP 426 but that was rejected python.org/dev/peps/pep-0426/#metadata-format
 
"There are infinitely many unit vectors so it's not a huge deal if you can't perpendicularize one of them", eh? :-P
 
5:00 PM
ahh, all the ugly internals get dragged into the light.
it's quite funny
 
@RaphX Checked for what?
 
I should add that info to my post so it doesn't get discussed there..
 
Making it production ready I guess since that is the common pain point of most people @roganjosh
 
wim
by the way, if you want metadata in a dict my project johnnydep has that feature... example usage:
from johnnydep.lib import JohnnyDist
JohnnyDist("Django").metadata
 
5:03 PM
Cool, do they help regardless of the size of the project or are there any regulations/rules?@Kevin
 
@RaphX yes there are rules, you can look them up. "Production ready" doesn't really have any meaning
 
I find "when I start doing projects" to be an interesting choice of words... I think a programmer starts doing projects when the idea to become a programmer first enters their mind. "Get Hello World working" is a project.
 
Even if one's definition of "project" is a little more substantial than mine, I don't think it will be easy to determine when you stop doing nonprojects and start doing projects. It's the paradox of the heap, except for lines of code instead of grains of sand.
 
wim
@Arne yeah I mean they have kind of missed the opportunity to escape from the ugly distutils/pkg_resources approach here :(
 
5:09 PM
Thanks @roganjosh
I meant like big ones involving lines and lines of code(lets say ML projects for example ) @Kevin
 
Ah, so a big heap of sand is definitely a heap of sand. This is certainly true.
 
@RaphX The way you phrased your question makes me a little dubious. That site is not an unlimited resource and you shouldn't expect to be able to dump giant projects there. Your own due-diligence might highlight 3 separate but distinct areas where you have concerns; they should be addressed individually. Don't dump the whole lot
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is: there aren't any objective "levels" of programming skill, so don't gate any useful resources behind some arbitrary metric of achievement
Post that Hello World to codereview if you think it will empower you
 
@Kevin There may be no levels, but there are experience points, and I have 12.4k worth of experience points :P
@RaphX In all seriousness tho, there is some controversy about ML projects (on codereview), i don't remember the meta post about it...
 
There's always controversy about ML projects :P
 
5:14 PM
Lol ethics.
 
If you like heaps of sand, ML projects are definitely for you. xkcd.com/1838
 
But ML problems are somewhat esoteric compared to a traditional code review so I can imagine that they don't like trying to work it all out
 
I think it ended up being: A lot of it is focused on hyperparameter tuning or something like that which is rather not in the spirit of codereview.
 
On that aspect, is there any dedicated chat for ML/DS in particular?
The ones I came across using Google are all paid versions
 
@RaphX There is an AI stackexchange you might check the chats there...
 
5:20 PM
The chats dont look so active
The room having the most recent message is about 1 day ago
 
@RaphX depending on where you live, there might also be pydata meetups near you.
 
> A common problem in computer graphics is to generate a non-zero vector in R^3 that is orthogonal to a given non-zero one. There is no single continuous function that can do this for all non-zero vector inputs. This is a corollary of the hairy ball theorem.
 
.. and if you are not opposed to meeting people in meatspace
 
Darn that hairy ball
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Oh good, I initially thought this problem was solved three hundred years ago, but actually it was solved only one hundred years ago. That makes me feel a little better.
 
@arne "Noone wants to know that this particular duck is actually powered by fins under the surface, right?" I think my strolls along the canal would be quite a bit more terrifying if I didn't know that :P
 
5:28 PM
as a side note, i think there was a german study on what is the funniest animal, and it turned out to be ducks. When telling jokes involving animals where the kind of animal was irrelevant, listeners laughed most when the used animals happened to be ducks.
 
Anyone have downvotes to spare? stackoverflow.com/questions/2967194/…
 
@Arne I can't even begin to think of how to search for the British equivalent without amassing yam-loads of junk
I guess it's one of those where you happen to look at the news at the right time and tuck the factoid away in memory, or you're doomed to find it
 
I recall a book by a prominent cartoonist that asserts that the weasel is the funniest animal.
 
wim
@Aran-Fey I do but I didn't see anything downvotable?
 
have you scrolled past the top 2 answers?
 
wim
5:40 PM
no
 
you'll be 10 rep lighter by the time you reach the last one
 
That's like going to page 2 of the google results
 
wim
oh, it's a "tail of crap" scenario. you should have specified.
I am much more bothered by highly popular but incorrect top/accepted answers (top answer here looks technically correct, if a little bit of a footgun).
 
my bad
 
wim
OK, downvoted 13 answers and upvoted one (baloo's answer).
this is a really good point - Q11 - how exactly is a moderator supposed to deal with that?
 
5:56 PM
That's exactly the reason that I put that rule into the "unenforcable" bin the second I read it.
 
They probably can't, and they probably shouldn't be put into a position that they have to
 
But surely it's good news that the most controversial part of the ToC change is also the part that it's impossible to actually get in trouble over
 
wim
it's problematic, because it will put a good moderator in the unfortunate position of needing psychic powers to act correctly, and a bad moderator in the position of acting however they feel like acting.
 
Andras' wrote about it extensively and linked this. I think the gist was that it doesn't matter to any normal user because it's not enforceable, but can be used as a justification to boot obviously malicious actors
 
It's hardly impossible when they threw a moderator to the dogs before it was even a thing
 
6:00 PM
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 23 hours ago, by PM 2Ring
The style guide https://radicalcopyeditor.com/2017/08/31/transgender-style-guide/ is great. But its intended audience is writers who want to know how to write trans inclusively. It's a bit much to expect your average Stack member to adhere to such high standards.
 
wim
Andras and Kevin's thoughts are a tad on the optimistic side
 
I expected the terms to get a quick revision clarifying that "because you are uncomfortable" is sufficient but not necessary for a violation. For the same reason that "If you bring a chainsaw to the grocery store because you feel unsafe without it, you will be arrested" does not imply that you are allowed to bring a chainsaw to the grocery store for other reasons
 
wim
you will get moderators that are bad actors too.
 
@PM2Ring One point from that guide that would still generalize nicely since it's not really about trans people is "Do not care more about words than you do about people.", and I think this was the point monica didn't want to compromise on.
 
@Arne I'll pay that.
 
6:04 PM
@PM2Ring what does "pay" mean in this context?
 
@Arne Sorry. It's an idiom that roughly means "I agree".
 
Never heard it in the UK in that context btw, I assumed you were gonna throw yourself on a stake :P
 
Like, I'll upvote that comment. Or, I'll concede that point.
 
thanks, good to know. no reason to be sorry, I like learning things like that
 
wim
6:08 PM
yeah nah
 
Used by Australians to positively affirm a statement/opinion someone makes/has. The saying originates from Australian Rules Football, Australia's national sport, where an umpire "pays" a free kick, a mark (catch from a kick), etc.
 
You could make up virtually any idiom and I would believe it's common in Australia
 
"I'll buy that" is the expression here
 
wim
I'll buy that
or "I don't buy it"
"pay" seems just a more ocker way of saying the same
 
@PM2Ring Ah, this confirms @AndrasDeak's suggestion to avoid "preferred" in the context of pronouns. Ok then.
 
wim
6:12 PM
sickie - taking a day off work when you're not really ill
sicko - a mentally disturbed person
sick'em - go forth and fight that thing! you can do it!
 
There's something to be said about this whole pronoun debacle that I don't think has been raised and it's possibly why it's a recurring issue
Not to be morbid, but to frame the debate, the biggest killer or young men in the western world is suicide, and this is disproportionately high in LGBT. There are some people that live a portion of their life in absolute hell because biologically they are trapped in the wrong body. Hermaphrodites, for example, can have their gender chosen for them. It is absolutely fair that they get recognised in their chosen gender
There has been a decades-long battle to allow such people to actually express who they are without fear of being battered or killed
Those battles, in the Western world, have mostly been won. There are trans people that are deeply invested in the issue and have serious problems
There is another group of people who can have sex with whoever they want, because those battles have been won, can dress how they want because who the yam even cares now, and expect you to use their pronouns
 
@Arne Obviously, I can't speak for Monica, and her exact position has been a matter of contention & confusion. But from my reading of her posts, I believe that she wants to treat people respectfully in her writing without being forced to comply to rules that clash with her writing style. She believes that singular "they" is ungrammatical, and will not compromise on that point, but she is more than happy to use other constructions.
 
Singular they is good enough for Shakespeare and Webster's, so it's good enough for me
 
Lumping them all together is exactly what went wrong when the issue first emerged and it was left to generalisations about "LGBT+", which it just wasn't
 
@roganjosh Even though it may appear that by insisting on the pronoun thing trans people are being hyper sensitive about a minor thing, in reality most trans people are actually quite tough, and have put up with a lot of disrespect and ridicule. A lot of trans people don't make it past 30, without at least 1 suicide attempt.
 
6:28 PM
@PM2Ring This is what I'm saying. I'm not trans or overtly gay (in the sense that you would know) but I did reply to you on Meta about my past (now deleted)
I'm saying that there is a serious root to this issue, and then there are others that rock up and make demands. And they cannot be combined as a group
 
@roganjosh Yeah. Anyone who's ever participated in an LGBT+ community (online or IRL) knows how much internal division there is, although I get the impression that it is a little more cohesive these days than it was even 10 years ago. Put 4 trans people in one room, and there'll be at least 8 different opinions. ;)
 
It's only cohesive when you're fighting a battle. We didn't have equal rights for a long time. The gays lit a fire to get marriage (I personally was only interested in equal legal rights, whatever form that took). That's different than making demands on other people in everyday life
 
wim
you can also find some people online that are intentional drama queens about it (pronouns etc) and go around looking like they're trying to pick fights over it. I assume they're an embarrassment to everyone else and not really helping the cause like they think they are
 
I never thought of this as a trans issue, really. If a user with the name Alice A gets misgendered in the comments and replies "I'm a girl actually", you have zero way of knowing whether they're cis or not. It's a problem that affects all women.
The resistance I perceive is towards more atypical pronouns like "they" or "xie", and that's more of a nonbinary/genderfluid/Q thing than a trans thing
 
wim
probably the same type of people that pushed so hard for master/slave terminology to be removed from open source. not wrong, just...missing the forest for the trees?
 
6:36 PM
I can't blame people for wanting to assert their rights, but at the same time, creating undue antagonism is unlikely to help achieve the desired goals. But who decides what's undue?
 
@PM2Ring I wouldn't presume to demand you like me, let alone respect my wishes. What I'm saying is that probably 90% of the calls for this kind of CoC are doing just that, and 10% who have actually gone through the trenches to reach this point are caught up in it
 
But yes, there has been a lot of pressure in LGBT groups from "straight acting" gays on the more flamboyant effeminate gays & trans women to "tone it down" so that straight society will accept LGBT as normal and not a bunch of freaks.
 
> Someone once wrote: "When you are right, you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative."
 
Also, "choose your battles". Insisting on respectful language is a realistic achievable goal. Dictating the exact form of what's respectful is going to push the wrong buttons on too many people, and they'll fight back.
I'm just pleased to see a lot more tolerance for LGBTQ+ people these days. But we still have a long way to go before the majority will be fully accepting. There are just too many people with conservative attitudes for cultural &/or religious reasons.
 
Personally, I couldn't care less if they condemn me to hell
If I can interact with them constructively then good. It can't always be about demands, there has to be some expectation that you won't see eye-to-eye with people
 
6:50 PM
@roganjosh yeah, as a heathen myself I'd like to have some nice company =)
 
But apart from that, people object to being told that they have to do XYZ or else. And a lot of the current reaction on MSE is exactly about that. The fact that it's about trans people is secondary.
 
@Arne I did get blessed once when I worked in a pharmacy so my position is iffy on where I'll go :P
 
wim
@roganjosh , what do you think of the right for user to disengage? to give a hypothetical example, if a user chose not to interact with you because they just don't like gay people. should that be a CoC violation?
 
@roganjosh I think blessings have a half-life of about a week, so you should be fine
 
@wim it shouldn't be a CoC violation because I don't want to put someone in an uncomfortable position.
 
wim
6:54 PM
the FAQ seems to be saying a user has no such right. Which is worrying, because if you will not compromise and you're not allowed to disengage then the only other alternative is to argue endlessly
 
It would, however, be unfortunate that someone decided to not interact with me because of it. But real life can be harsher than that
 
Anti-gay people shouldn't use computers, because one of the very founders of computer science, my "namesake" A M Turing, was gay. ;)
 
@wim I could have sworn they removed that section
 
Anti-trans people shouldn't use computers either.
 
@wim that's just as unenforceable as q11 though, isn't it? how could a moderator tell if someone disengaged vs lost interest in the discussion
 
6:56 PM
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 5 hours ago, by PM 2Ring
Fun fact: for decades, electronic devices have been based on complex integrated circuits, aka chips, technically known as VLSI, Very Large Scale Integration. One of the authors of the definitive VLSI engineering textbooks is Professor Lynn Conway. Around the year 2000, she came out as trans. So we have a trans woman to thank for the wonders of modern technology. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead_%26_Conway_revolution and http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html
 
wim
@PM2Ring Weird argument. It's like to say anti-slavery people shouldn't live in the USA, because the very founders of the USA owned slaves.
 
It might have been an Official Corporate reply to the answer by the fired moderator saying "great, the rules aren't as objectionable to me now, unfire me please", which I can no longer find
 
wim
@Arne I'm not sure - if they ping you and you don't respond? But you're still responding to others?
 

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