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4:00 PM
@MorganThrapp Like the obscure holiday that you totally forgot about?
 
@holdenweb it is just that he just 2to3'd all the code blocks
 
@tzaman Exactly, or an unannounced meeting.
 
@Kevin High end shoes, surely
 
> the constant addition of new features to Python 3.
The tragedy! Does he object to literally every other language too?
 
didn't matter in Python 2
 
4:01 PM
I can't come in today, it's Carl Giles' birthday and he would have been 100 and I just can't deal with the fact that he was taken from us so soon
 
@davidism perhaps US has been annexed by Cambodia.
 
@Kevin Congrats, your computer is faster than a raspberry pi
In [2]: %timeit ["".join(v) for k,v in itertools.groupby('ABC123XYZ456Q7'* 100, key=str.isdigit)]
100 loops, best of 3: 4.19 ms per loop
 
Nice.
 
Raspberry pi 3, even
 
That whole warning is beautiful in how bizarre it is.
 
4:03 PM
ah sorry :P
 
that's Python 2.7 on there, though, FWIW
 
@WayneWerner depends on the compilation...
@WayneWerner is that optimized for RPi3...
 
Python 2.7.9 (default, Mar 8 2015, 00:52:26)
pi@raspberrypi:~ $ cat /etc/issue
Raspbian GNU/Linux 8 \n \l
 
@davidism Happy Day of the Russian Machine-Building industry workers
@WayneWerner raspbian is RPi1 compatible...
We're now using Mate
 
Oh, I don't get Twitter. Apparently I was supposed to put a . before the mention to make it show up on my timeline. Too late now.
 
4:05 PM
It'd be fun to try an arch for pi
@davidism Twitter mentions are so weird
 
@WayneWerner no it is not, been there, done that.
then you forget to upgrade, and everything becomes shitty.
@WayneWerner ^the mate is good though
it uses the ordinary ubuntu binaries
it is possible to install debian plain, but it isn't easy.
 
@Morgan and @Kevin weren't on that train right? I don't think the room could survive such a drop in star and/or alcohol content.
 
@Ffisegydd What train?
 
That one in New Jersey. I couldn't remember exactly where you lived.
 
Oh, nope. I'm in NY.
 
Don't worry, I'm still drunk alive!
 
Whatever, all the same.
 
@AnttiHaapala Oh wow, that sucks. :/
 
lol, a Brit makes a reference to a train, a Finn understands, an American is WTF
 
I guess I get the same impressions on the Tweet either way, right? It still shows up in other peoples' stream?
Time to go back and read eevee's Twitter rant again.
 
4:09 PM
> Witnesses said the train slammed into a bumper block, went airborne and plowed through a passenger concourse
I mean, that's terrible and all, but does anyone else really wish they could've seen it go airborne?
 
@davidism AFAIK it just shows up on the streams of people who follow both
unless retweeted...
 
@AnttiHaapala Nope, I don't follow Zed and I saw it.
 
Hoboken is in North Jersey, which is a forbidden realm to South Jerseyans. Only the neutral zone (aka the Turnpike) is safe for passage.
 
@MorganThrapp in the feed?
or via link
 
Oh, though maybe it was because it was retweeted by you.
 
4:10 PM
I didn't see it on davidism's page
:D
 
I don't see it on my page unless I click the other tab.
 
An uneasy truce, but a necessary one if we are to battle our common enemy, New York.
 
I see it on davidism's page.
 
I vaguely recall that Twitter changed how mentions work, but can't find the reference.
 
IIRC if the mention starts from the first character, it behaved differently
 
4:11 PM
Maybe they backtracked after people complained about it
 
> A tweet that begins with a mention won’t appear on the timelines of anyone who follows you, unless they also follow the first person you mention. That is, if you tweet @foo @bar heya, it’ll only appear on the timelines of people who follow both you and @foo.
>
> If you put some other character before the first @, the previous rule no longer applies, and your tweet will appear to all your followers. So .@foo @bar heya will be visible to everyone (and show on your Web profile). This is called “dot-replying”. The dot isn’t actually special; it’s just an easy-to-type and unobtrusive character
 
From eevee:
> A tweet that begins with a mention won’t appear on the timelines of anyone who follows you, unless they also follow the first person you mention.
 
Why do we care about a tweet?
 
So you could use 🍰@someone
 
@Ffisegydd Must resist tweeting that
 
4:14 PM
22 mins ago, by davidism
@zedshaw on learning: read my book about learning Python a hard way, but don't learn Python 3 because it changed and learning is hard.
You missed all the Zed/LPTHW related snark
 
D:
I always knew you were a gud'un
 
Unfortunately I messed up and it's a direct mention rather than a timeline message. Twitter makes no sense.
 
Twitter is drunk
 
Oh nice, so you literally called him out directly?
 
4:19 PM
Haha :D
 
davidism doesn't mess around. He goes straight for the jugular
 
Tomo he'll come up with a new book, Replying to Davidism, the hard way
 
Do you think he'll "throw down"? As I believe the youths say.
 
no. Tomorrow he is going to show up here
 
Hoping that he doesn't "throw up".
 
4:20 PM
@BhargavRao Replying to Davidism 3
 
I'm pre-deciding that in the unlikely event that he actually even notices and responds, I'm only replying once.
 
Someday I will discover the source of davidism's power.
 
Don't even. It can only end poorly. Unless he comes at it from a constructive angle.
 
> If you can put up with constant learning and changes
Nope.
:D
 
Leading theories: an enormous microwave dish array in the desert. A portrait of him in his attic, slowly growing older. A small totem gifted to him for saving the life of a wise native.
 
4:26 PM
While we are discussing about twitter, Does anyone know how to get rid of the fake accounts who like your tweets? My (apparently proud) tweet about research has been liked by 6, 4 of which are fake accounts of female users (not using a stronger word here).
 
If they are fake, I sure they wouldn't mind.
 
It looks awkward to me. This is the tweet that I mentioned about twitter.com/BhargavHS/status/724351039294459905.
 
user6568562
@BhargavRao Nice : D
 
def __init__(self, name,aliasesList):
self.name = name
self.aliasesList = aliasesList

I get that python is dynamic, but shouldn't I throw an error if aliasesList isn't a list?
 
No.
Why would that ever throw an error?
 
4:32 PM
Python doesn't look at variable names to make sure they make sense. You could do self.purpleMonkeyDishwasher = [] if you so desired, and Dishwasher isn't even a built-in type!
 
I know, what I mean is, should I throw an error.
 
Oh, ok.
 
It's probably available as part of kitchen
 
I don't like to raise errors based on specific type checking because maybe the user made their own list-like class that happens to implement all the methods I intend to use
Why they would do this, I don't know, but it's a free country.
This does occasionally inconvenience me when I get an exception deep in the class and I have to explore the call stack for a while to figure out that, oops, I passed an integer to __init__ when it expected a dict.
 
@BhargavRao I believe that blocking the users works
 
4:35 PM
My first worry is that I will create an object like this.

myClass = ("Name", "Alias")

Rather than ["Alias"]
 
Funnily, I did exactly that just yesterday.
 
Exactly Kevin, I wanna throw errors as early as I can.
 
And you're not aware you're iterating over characters instead of full words? Yeah, that's not a fun one
 
OMG, I hope that doesn't actually happen.
 
@WayneWerner But how many? I've blocked quite a few. I dunno why they target me. Perhaps I should change my profile picture. (Or is it the same for everyone?) :D
 
4:37 PM
Weee my API is working :D
I even used a python lambda :O
 
@BhargavRao I guess it depends on who you follow and how many people follow you
 
I think explicitly raising an error on class declaration fits python's philosophy here.
But so does declaring it's type as if it were a static language.
 
One possible compromise is to use assert instead of formally raising an Exception yourself, so you get fast failure while you're still developing, but when you publish it the end-users can disable asserts so they don't have to pay in slightly reduced performance
 
@SterlingArcher congrats
 
I actually like the JS syntax for lambda better. hides.
4
 
4:38 PM
assert isinstance(aliasList, list), "Expected list, got {}".format(type(aliasList))
 
@MorganThrapp you're talking to a JS Room Owner, I'm on your side on that one lol
 
Nobody is really satisfied with the Python lambda syntax
 
@SterlingArcher Oh I'm not worried about you. :P It's the rest of the room.
 
The problem is that there isn't anything better
 
Python could have even had a cute little snake-like arrow.
`(x) ~~:> sum(x)`
3
 
4:39 PM
omg
 
@Kevin performance wasn't really a problem, it was more about verbosity.
 
@KevinMGranger somebody really dropped the ball on that one
 
I just want multiline anonymous functions
 
sometimes I use assert instead of raise because it's one line shorter :>
 
@Kevin turns out Python3.5 on my Raspi2 is faster though
In [4]: %timeit ["".join(v) for k,v in itertools.groupby('ABC123XYZ456Q7'* 100, key=str.isdigit)]
10 loops, best of 3: 32 ms per loop
 
4:40 PM
> This syntax is unnecessary and dangerous but I sure do love sneks - Python lambdas
 
not µs yet
but wow that's faster
 
Do you use k and v instead of key and value on real code?
I hate that.
With a passion.
 
Why not?
 
Nov 2 '15 at 20:36, by Kevin
Python devs, please integrate "λ" as a keyword, thanks in advance
 
Do you use index instead of i?
 
4:41 PM
I hate more important things than that.
 
I would if I could.
 
for i, v in enumerate(list_o_things) <- perfectly fine
 
Yeah, I've used k,v in production code from time to time. It depends on what I'm doing.
 
i is zeitgeist though.
 
@TomasZubiri Yeah i do but pretty much only for one liners
 
4:42 PM
I do use index over i in enumerate.
 
too many letters. pass.
 
If you have to remember what a variable is supposed to represent for more than two lines, I'm probably going to use a full word
 
Meh, that's why I use PyCharm. It's just i<tab>.
 
i
that didn't work....
feature request autocomplete in chat
 
Is this seriously about typing?
 
4:43 PM
Why not?
k, v is smaller than key, value.
 
because code gets written one time and read thousands of times.
 
for this_is_the_data_that_is_in_my_list_so_you_know_how_explicit_i_am_being in (this_is_my_list_that_has_stuff)
 
"i is zeitgeist". How did you know it secretly stands for illuminati ?
 
And k, v is idiomatic Python as much as key, value
 
At my workplace, the (write and rewrite) : (read) ratio is about one to one.
 
4:44 PM
for this_is_my_data, and_was_your_fathers_before_mine in this_kingdom:
 
haha
 
Ain't nobody looking at my code unless they are thinking of a way to delete it and replace it with their code.
 
Hi room!
 
hi @Iroh
 
cbg @Iroh
 
4:45 PM
I think the one letter idioms come from C which did things like *(*i++)
hi
 
It's also popular in languages like Scala.
 
And go
 
The letters come from some earlier language in which i, j, and k were the only integer variables
or something to that effect
I started with x and y for my loops, and x is quite often my metasyntactic variable now
 
I learned with i, j, k
 
Lately I've been doing for item in... a lot. item is a nice generic thing.
 
4:48 PM
interestingly enough, for i, thing in enumerate(things): is natural for me, though
 
You know what grinds my gears? for each in ...
 
I think it's because that's the pattern that I learned
ew. Someone actually writes for each in ... in Python?
 
haha maybe that makes more sense in other languages Kevin
actually, it kind of makes sense now that I'm thinking about it
 
Cause, there's foreach thing in things in other languages
 
I see it occasionally among newish people. I feel like it might harm their understanding of how loops work.
 
4:49 PM
... each_new = each.replace('test', 'test1')
... I'm already at the point of semantic satiation with "each"
 
Like, if you see code like each.frob(23) it kind of gives the impression that the one instruction is calling frob on every item simulatneously. But in reality loops operate serially.
 
I see what you mean
 
the newbie will read about break and their mental model will fall apart
 
would continue also break that model?
 
My mental model of them modelling their mental model indicates: yes.
 
4:52 PM
just wait till for...else
 
It could be worse. In PHP it's for ($collection as $key => $value) { /*...*/ }
 
Granger that's not so bad but damn I hate those dollar signs
 
sigils :(
 
why? Make it rain $$$$$$$
 
haha
someone on Facebook ironically called Clinton $hillary the other day
and I wasn't sure whether he was implying that she is corrupt, or that she is a variable
 
4:55 PM
Oh, yeah, I hate PHP's for each. It's so unintuitive.
 
brb gonna update the Kevinscript docs to reserve => as "equal to or greater than" so it can't be used for arrow shenanigans in the future
 
I hate PHP's $thing. It's so unintuitive.
You could really replace that with anything.
But on the plus side, you can do this:
$ha = '$ha';
print "ke$ha"; // ke$ha
 
I hate php's mostly everything
 
If php did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it.
 
5:04 PM
does anyone feel that php is trying to be python?
 
Not specifically but I think in general languages like to adopt trendy features from other languages and Python happens to be on the trendier side of the gradient
 
python is trendy?
 
Like, php adopting lambdas isn't specifically stealing from Python because lots of languages have lambdas.
 
I thought it was pretty old
 
(I don't know if php is actually adopting lambdas, that's just a highly generic example)
 
5:05 PM
functional programming is absolutely trendy
 
You don't have to be exceptionally trendy to be trendier than php.
comedy response: of course Python is trendy, it's all anyone ever talks about in here!
 
nvm..that was only funny to me and that didn't make much sense
 
Anyone recommend a decent FOSS wiki I can install locally?
 
Programming is a trend in the eyes of time vultures.
 
@RobertGrant what are some of your key requirements for the wiki?
 
5:11 PM
Great question :-)
 
It has to be Free and Open Source and it has to be whatever the last S stands for.
Superlative.
 
Forms auth is fine, ldap better. (Single sign-on in Windows better still.) I dunno what the non-auth options are, because I don't know enough about wikis. I guess a slight preference for Python, because I know it a bit?
 
you should set up a sharepoint site
runs away before anyone can hit him
 
Wysiwyg editor preferable, but definitely not essential. Markdown a good alternative.
 
trololol I felt dirty for using that
 
5:13 PM
Does anyone have good articles managing your manager? Like, the importance of estimates and deliverables, even if they're not asked for, and how to tailor those deliverables to be something that effectively communicates project status?
And hey, I'm purple!
 
"We need budget approval for Office 365 licences for all the devs for documentation." <- business understands. "We can just download a totally free thing." <- business considers mumbo jumbo.
 
Important question here.
 
@RobertGrant Welcome to why we downloaded slack and don't touch office 365
 
I feel the C# chat is more open to bureocratic discussions.
 
I feel as though your key requirements question has derailed me slightly :-)
 
5:16 PM
@RobertGrant I wonder if Medium offers private blogging
 
How local are we talking here? If it's a personal wiki, then I suggest Wikidpad.
 
Local as in an on-prem install for a dev team to collaborate in an air-gapped environment
 
About 7
7 Local
 
@idjaw glares
 
I felt that across the pond
 
5:19 PM
Ah, moinmoin
 
cabbage
 
I've had a good but limited experience with MoinMoin (before switching to Wikidpad) and it's in pretty wide use.
 
MoinMoin reminds me of BoingBoing which is a blog I derived much amusement from until they redesigned their css and I gave up on them because the magic just wasn't there any more
 
I remember it being simple to set up, it's worth a shot.
 
Lesson: consider how many of your users are as fickle as me before redesigning.
 
5:26 PM
cbg
hey guys, don't just like that tweet but retweet
 
?
am I missing context?
 
@AndrasDeak ^
 
OK then:D
 
@zedshaw on learning: read my book about learning Python a hard way, but don't learn Python 3 because it changed and learning is hard.
7 likes, 3 retweets :D
 
haha:D
Was there an <event that takes place before something else, leading to the later event taking place>?
 
5:30 PM
@AndrasDeak yes,
 
antecedent?
 
I know one of each of those are mine ;)
 
ZAS has started writing a Python 3 book...
 
nooooooooooo:D
will it be even harder?
dude should stick to drawings
 
Python: The Hardest Way
 
5:31 PM
@AndrasDeak yes, it is even harder to read and not get angry
 
> You will run into bugs and problems. I do not recommend Python 3 to any beginner due to serious issues with the design of strings, destruction of dynamic typing in strings vs. bytes, problems with the 2to3 conversion tool, poor design of the urllib library regarding encodings, the coming use of THREE different ways to format strings, and the constant addition of new features to Python 3.
PROBLEMS WITH 2to3 OMG
and new features are the worst
sorry if you guys have already been through this, I had a busy day
 
@AndrasDeak he forgot string.Template
 
> And have you seen the parentheses that you need around print? Sheesh
(that might not be an actual quote)
 
yes, there are 3 ways of formatting strings in Python 2(.7) already
 
I knew that:)
 
and only 30 bucks to be told that python 3 is crap and buy my other book for python 2
 
so at first he writes a Python 2 book that teaches Python 2 incompatibly
 
2 hours ago, by Wayne Werner
Why doesn't Zed just teach... assembly? That hasn't changed, right?
 
and doesn't use all the __future__ imports that were there all along
 
> Use your Linux package manager and install the Atom text editor.
haha
 
5:34 PM
and now he complains that it is hard to migrate 2 to 3
 
I love the guy
 
drawings might be better than assembly :P
 
idk, I am an asshole generally, but this guy is possibly even worse than me :D
 
but seriously, how can you not like someone who tweets about himself in third person
oh shit, way new LP3THW questions are incoming
 
@AndrasDeak and context = None
 
5:37 PM
> If you can put up with constant learning and changes
Still my favorite quote
 
https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/ex1.html
He has print statements without marks of parenthesis in his first 'real' example.
 
like... that's a bad thing?
 
@QuestionC he has just pretty much 2to3'd the code all over
 
This book is like a big passive aggressive statement against Python 3.
 
Hardly that passive, though
 
5:38 PM
@WayneWerner if you can't do that then f*cking quit programming
 
I'm sorry for the guy
 
@AnttiHaapala You're more generous that I
 
@QuestionC active-aggressive one might say
 
2 hours ago, by Wayne Werner
If you can't put up with constant learning and changes I recommend you go kill yourself now, because life is constant learning and changes.
 
he lived in his safe niche of python 2, losing more and more support, ensuring stability and persistence of bugs
 
5:39 PM
2 hours ago, by Kevin
I'm pretty sure "learning difficult things that might change later" is, like, the entirety of our profession
 
now the world is crumbling around him, streets curving up inception-style
 
Story time. So a library I was using suddenly had trouble showing russian characters.
So I go into the source
And mind you it's in php.
And I find this atop of a 1290 line class.

//When I wrote this, only God and I understood what I was doing
//Now, God only knows

//You may think you know what the following code does.
//But you dont. .
//Fiddle with it, and you will spend many sleepless
//night cursing the moment you thought youd be clever
//enough to "optimize" the code below.
//Now close this file and go play with something else.
Oh, and this library was written by a coworker.
And he doesn't accept pull requests to the library.
 
Was it really you who found that? Because that's quoted all over the internet, for example here: facebook.com/Codeplaza/posts/536367206416498
Somehow I'm skeptical.
 
unless co-worker borrowed that comment
 
or even your coworker didn't write that, found that popular quote and put it in their code and probably has no correlation to how fubar their code probably isn't
 
5:48 PM
I'm aware he plagiarized his terribly unproffessional comment.
 
The first comment is also borrowed.
 
I've definitely stolen apocryphal code comments.
 
But just, don't put it in production code.
 
Being a shitty programmer is one thing; trying to make it look cute by plagiarizing witty comments is unforgivable.
 
I like the version that's like "increment this value after you've decided you shouldn't modify the code after all. HOURS_WASTED_SO_FAR = 16.5;"
 
5:49 PM
I have a section of code wrapped in //Here there be dragons //End dragons
It's a part of the code that interfaces with a very nasty legacy system.
It's some ugly, ugly, hacky code.
 
This is the angriest comment I've ever written, and it's really just a frustrated actual explanation of the code: github.com/sopython/sopython-site/blob/…
 
Also plagiarized
@Morgan
 
I guess I'm weird, I never put silly / angry comments in code or commits.
 
lol... if there is a lowest point in David Hasselhoff's career, then this is it... being a judge in Talent Finland
 
My favorite function from our code base is NightmareOnParsingStreet.
 
5:51 PM
@davidism That's a pretty good comment.
 
tristan would come and score it on a scale of 10
 
You comment in salad?
 
Well, it was for sopython-site.
That's literally the strongest language I've used in a comment.
I'm a very mild coder.
 
really? :-|
 
@davidism I didn't know that :D
 
5:56 PM
I'm surprised. I would think the angriest comment davidism would have would be the very powerful, yet subtle:

:-|
it speaks volumes
 
wim
/quote I do not recommend Python 3 to any beginner due to serious issues with the design of strings, destruction of dynamic typing in strings vs. bytes
wat?!?!
guy has no idea what he's talking about
 
Zed not handling them well is a serious issue
 
wim
first of all, python 3 is still dynamically typed
second of all, it's the handling of strings vs bytes in python2 that's all jacked up
 

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