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00:29
Downvoting won't make any difference. Grrr. stackoverflow.com/a/72547904/2943403
00:43
@mickmackusa Why does it need to be downvoted? Is it low quality?
How do you compel mega-high reppers to stop answering mega-duplicate questions? @CodyGray No techniques that I know of actually work on high-reppers.
These users know full-well that they are answering a question that has been answered many times, but they answer it anyhow. Then the Upvote Pixies sprinkle heavy. So the cycle repeats.
 
2 hours later…
03:19
@mickmackusa It's not just PHP... Will this eventually roomba? stackoverflow.com/questions/72553626/…
03:32
@CodyGray Well, you can get labels which you can print on a Zebra for which the printer ink, label/design ink, label material, and label adhesive are all impervious to most chemicals. However, the the necessary labels and printer ribbon are all notably more expensive.
@HenryEcker No, I actually thought that @RyanM put it in the Graveyard, so I said thanks for the cleanup.
That was what I understood Henry's message to be saying.
@Nick no, score > 0
It was what I meant by what I said as well :)
@RyanM It's a duplicate with answers the score doesn't matter I believe.
Ah, well, also that.
There are several reasons that won't Roomba.
I figured not. I guess it just gets left although it's not a great signpost
03:45
It was the wrong duplicate target: This question is x == 1 or 2 or 3 when the target was x or y or z == 1. It's fixed now.
@Vega If what you're wanting to do is change the stated close reason, and it hasn't been all that long since you posted the cv-pls request, then, yes, you can coordinate with an RO to have the original binned and you can then post a new one. Doing so does require RO coordination/permission. Alternately, one of the mods lurking in the room might take it upon themselves to edit your original message to change the reason (but, please, don't ask them to do so).
I don't think you would do so, but part of the RO's evaluation of the situation will be if the person making the request has made multiple such requests and/or if the RO feels that making the swap would be too much of a "bump" for the request (as you know, we don't permit "bumping").
But, every once in a while an "oops, I made a mistake/feel a different close reason is now applicable, and would really like to change the close reason included in [this request]" is likely to be supported by the ROs.
@HenryEcker thanks. the same principle though
@Nick Yeah. Basically the same just inverses. Either would get to them the answer. I just think the one that's more applicable is helpful here especially given the question is partly "why does it always default to option 1"
@HenryEcker agreed. I just can never seem to find that one. I should bookmark it now you've added it as the dupe.
...done
Yeah. For a repository of information, actually finding that information is harder than it needs to be.
05:30
would this warrant a custom mod flag? basically, it's a copy+paste of an existing answer, yes it links to the other answer, so it's not fully plagiarism, but the answers adds nothing on its own - stackoverflow.com/a/72422860/1974224
actually, it doesn't link to the answer the content was copied from, it links to the question the answer was posted in response to
I would say Yes. Flag it. Mods may have more information (e.g. other deleted answers with similar issues or pending/handled flags on other posts)
Also wholesale copying content without adding or modifying it is generally not acceptable even if it's attributed.
thanks, submitted the flag
05:48
Sigh. Ideally, that would've been dealt with when it was originally flagged by someone else a week ago. Unfortunately, we're absolutely swimming in plagiarism flags at the moment, and a single plagiarism flag can mean checking and deleting dozens of posts, because when there's one plagiarized post, there's often more.
But keep 'em coming, every plagiarist caught and stopped is another one not contributing more and more plagiarized posts unchecked.
3
06:14
Did arsho answer and vote to close? stackoverflow.com/a/72553666/2943403
Yes, seems so
@mickmackusa Second vote though (after the duplicate auto comment was live).
Looks like a rather poor duplicate but at least people got to trade upvotes
07:19
@mickmackusa you don't. Just close closeable questions and then vote to delete when appropriate.
I know this isn't the answer that you wanted, but it's the only reasonable one
@blackgreen I wish it didn't require such manual destruction make people see. This just happens to be an appropriate case when there are heaps of signposts already.
I hear you. Unfortunately there will always be a divergence of intents between users of this platform.
And a question can be identified as a duplicate only ex-post. Either there is a forced delay between the question being vetted and answers being posted (Staging Grounds), or you monitor "Newest" and hammer as fast as possible.
Only problem, you will have to sleep and work and spend time with your family at some point
Which are arguably more fulfilling activities than monitoring "Newest"
@Makyen I was too impatient and maybe overly sure that the question needed a closing. But of course, I have no intention to disturb mods, neither to bump the cv-pls, neither to go against the rules :) Very clear and detailed explanation, thank you!
Most disappointing when users who are approaching or surpassed 1M rep that prioritize answering over closing. That said, I'm starting to believe that all people who get anywhere near 1M are knowingly answering dupes. I never actually looked at Skeet's answering habits.
Is this spam?
07:34
@JeanneDark I flagged
Thanks
@mickmackusa trust me, just hammer and vote to delete.
what we do here is curation. it doesn't have to be a fight, nor a struggle
I forward-closed a duplicate just 10 minutes ago. The newest question&answer were better than the old one. This happens some times. Rarely. Allow it to happen.
quick plagiarism search in google was unproductive
07:51
@mickmackusa Yeah, I don't know of any magic tricks to compel them to do so, either. I don't see how downvoting a couple of their posts would provide much in the way of inducement, given that they have, as you already said, gobs of rep and wouldn't notice a drop of a couple points.
And downvoting useful/correct answers seems to do the larger community a disservice. Not to mention violates the "vote on content, not on people" mantra.
@Makyen I was thinking of the simplest case, of course. :-)
the horrible design of the dupe interface also makes it hard to argue; I engaged with one of these busy posters once and they said they find it a lot easier to just answer than to hunt down a suitable dupe, and it's hard to disagree with that
they do hammer posts sometimes (both the one I'm talking about and yours)
I find it easier to hammer than answering
Likewise. It's not that hard. The interface is not bad.
The only possible challenge is finding the existing question. Which would only be hard if maybe you didn't know about Google site search.
I also wrote a userscript to remember frequent dupe targets
@tripleee It's common, yes. I've heard the same sentiment from other users. Also, some times I've avoided hammering because I just couldn't bother finding the correct dupe. Maybe because I know it's hard to find, maybe because I start looking for one and 5-15 minutes later, I'm frustrated because there is no clear target(s) to use.
07:58
My new favorite hobby is finding a C++ question that has made HNQ, and finding a duplicate to close it against.
even with various helpers in place, I sometimes just give up, even when I know I have a duplicate which would fit, never mind then when the question seems like one which must have been asked before
@VLAZ IMHO if a 5 minutes search doesn't reveal suitable targets, then it's not a duplicate. Even if a target does exist, it clearly isn't discoverable
The problem is when I know it exists and I have seen it before. But the correct keywords to find it escape me.
ah, yeah, that's annoying
the dupe search dialog is stupendously poorly designed, it brings up search hits with absolutely no bearing unless you remember the title of your duplicate precisely
08:02
are you using SO search or google search? the builtin search isn't much
I have never once used the search built into the duplicate closure dialog.
It makes no sense to call up the duplicate closure dialog before deciding to close something as a duplicate, and you can't possibly decide to close something as a duplicate before actually finding said duplicate.
I have to google search with site:stackoverflow.com
the site search on its own is better than the dupe close box but the threshold is obviously higher the more work you have to do
I also use this script to help
That "search" is really just more of a preview, to ensure that you didn't accidentally paste in the wrong link.
08:03
@tripleee Occasionally I've had to resort to filtering the posts by a certain user because I know they answered the question. And then using a rough date range of when I think it was from (e.g., 2012-2014) with other filters like score and stuff. Which leaves me with maybe 100-ish answers to check. If I'm lucky.
I have a hard time even finding answers of my own sometimes, there are recurring questions which are not frequent enough to bookmark or etc but which still come up more than once
@tripleee That's also a problem, yes. Even if I know what I'm looking for, the search is such garbage, that I cannot find it.
The most useful filter is by date but even if narrow down to a year, that's still not exactly narrow enough.
 
1 hour later…
11:07
If, in the Reopen queue, three reviewers all vote to "Keep closed" but with a (unanimous) different reason than the original close, does the formal close reason get changed? For example, if a Q were originally closed as a dupe but the review gets three votes to leave closed as (say) "unclear", can a gold-tagger still hammer it open?
@blackgreen I categorically disagree with this philosophy. If you cannot find the duplicate until 5 or 10 minutes into the hunt, then the onus is on the title and keywords (or lack thereof) in the found question. We don't need more questions when something is hard to find; we need to improve existing pages so that they are easier to find (for everyone, not just hammerers).
11:26
What if the answer a user was blacklisted for is newer than the later reported one they are removed from the blacklist for?
@JeanneDark You may get a quicker answer to that in Charcoal HQ.
*holds off on answering @JeanneDark's question so that Adrian won't be immediately proven wrong*
And people say I am not nice, thoughtful, and considerate! That I don't worry about hurting feelings.
The short answer is basically just that the obvious thing happens: the user gets erroneously removed from the blacklist. Generally, someone who is paying attention and has privileges with SD will manually re-add the user to the blacklist.
Thanks! Sounds like a good thing to do
11:32
Boo, hiss.
How long was I supposed to wait?!
Those eyes That eye, it's so alluring.
So, is Smokey greedy, lazy, both or neither?
Usually greedy. It's more efficient.
@JeanneDark the blacklist is completely trivial, the post's age is not considrerd at all. When a post is reported, if it receives TPU feedback, the user is blacklisted, and then if another post of theirs is reported and receives FP feedback, they are removed
@Vega Free review suspension :p
11:38
{Adrian becomes a room owner and moves 12 messages to Charcoal HQ...}
@ZoestandswithUkraine Oh :)
@tripleee Thank you for the explanation
we could probably come up with a more sophisticated mechanism but then we would probably call it something else, as the blacklist is more similar to what we now call a watch than a proper blacklist
@mickmackusa the point is, in order to prove that a question is a duplicate, you've gotta find a suitable target first. If you, or anyone who's a SME and a SO veteran, can't find one in 5-10 minutes, then it's unreasonable to demand that nobody answers the question in the meantime
it's not like you can't both be right
11:44
@tripleee The real issue here isn't that the blacklist doesn't consider the post's age. It's that non-edited posts are rescanned and bumped when the containing Q&A is rescanned because of other activity.
Those reports are virtually guaranteed to be FPs.
@AdrianMole Alas, it doesn't work that way.
yeah, agreed ... still, sometimes, they are not
11:55
Heyy team
jps
jps
12:18
@ZoestandswithUkraine as expected is gone now and and are still there. Yesterday evening one new question with the tag came up. I deleted the tag from the question.
This bug is getting on my nerves
jps
jps
@ZoestandswithUkraine did you try escalating to a CM?
[status-review] is a form of escalation
jps
jps
so it will be solved in 6 to 8 weeks/months/years
Unfortunately, the problem is that it's a bug, and CMs can't do much about bugs. They can probably blacklist the tags, but that's... annoying, because blacklist requests go through meta
12:27
How about making these tags synonyms of ? ;)
@JeanneDark approve
13:37
I think it's pretty bad ad when half of it is spent on explaining who is the person posting it.
Woah, watch out, y'all. It's the Mack Bosco.
Actually it's pretty effective psychology. Just repeat the product name over and over and people will remember it better, even if they don't remember what it does
Worst one I've ever seen is this one for sure: youtube.com/watch?v=f_SwD7RveNE
And yes the ad itself is a ~10 second bit that actually repeats twice during the tv spot
I knew it was Head-On before I even clicked on it!
@GeneralGrievance Friends call him Big Mack
Welp, out of flags.
There are apparently a huge number of NAAs that can be found with just "this question has".
13:52
there are quite a few phrases that meet that criterion :-)
Time to steal free flags :p
@GeneralGrievance wow you have a lot of pending flags
@ZoestandswithUkraine mods get free flags?
@SurajRao And us plebeians have to pay for them
@SurajRao No, the free flags are for you lot
The stealing bit is by taking the posts before you get to flag :p
14:02
@Dharman Mostly NAAs. I just searched: "this question has" is:a score:..0
Pro tip: "this question has" is:a score:..0 url:http
@ZoestandswithUkraine Fun fact: Dharman once got upset because I was reporting stuff in SD and taking my time in flagging it as a mod. Because I was "costing him flags". So I helped get him unlimited flags :P
14:20
Sounds like me
lol
His helpful flag count must rise
@GeneralGrievance yeah, those were suuuuper easy to handle last time. Most obvious NAAs ever.
now you're helping Dharman catch up to me on deleted posts for the day!
Yeah, I think I need to stop now. It happened again
At least we don't have unlimited downvotes
I do
@Dharman I'm in this picture and I don't like it
@ZoestandswithUkraine I'm very much disliking the results for this search. >:( (flagging...)
Sadly, I cannot downvote most of what I'm deleting at the moment or my votes would get reversed :-(
14:58
Mods run the biggest voting ring of all. They just use delete votes instead of downvotes.
is it really a voting ring if you only need one vote?
And have unlimited votes?
which is good, because I've cast 243 delete votes so far today...
That's gotta be a bit disheartening. You can delete so much but there's just always more.
goood, gooooooood
let the delete flow through you
3
15:01
Plot twist: mods are secretly daleks. Exterminate!
That's just wibbly wobbly votey wotey nonsense
15:18
Now up to 273.
@Spevacus Plagiarism's the worst.
There's so much and it's just a slog.
I've been out of delete votes for about 10 hours =/
@RyanM It's also quite tedious. Some of it's tricky.
At least with the worst offenders, it gets to the point where we give up, delete basically everything that's not clearly suggesting specific fixes to the asker's code, and tell them they can send us a list of what's not plagiarized.
Got a mod-message template for it and everything.
@TylerH And not just the Questions, but the Answers and Comments too.
So far, both people to take us up on that have incorrectly claimed at least one plagiarized post as non-plagiarized. One of them even had my comment below it with the source...
15:25
clearly the source was the one plagiarizing from SO
Also, they've listed posts that we didn't actually delete, which makes me wonder how they're generating these lists.
@KevinB plagiarism-searching would be so much easier if there weren't so many SO scrapers :-(
Well it depends on how the template is phrased. If you ask for which posts are not plagiarised then that would include non-deleted posts.
My favorite response to "Do not steal content," was effectively "No, I didn't steal this. Just because it is the same, doesn't mean I copied it." This was on a bountied question where both the answers were copied from the same source question.
@RyanM This. 100% this.
wow
don't assume
15:27
If there are specific answers of yours that you believe were not plagiarized (i.e., are your own, original work), and you would like to have these specific answers undeleted, you may reply to this message with a list of such answers. We will verify those individual answers and consider them for undeletion.
I saw a comment under an answer, recently, along the lines of, "This is copied directly from XXX without attribution." The OP then added a comment, "Well, I said I found it, didn't I."
@RyanM FWIW I can definitely see "specific answers of yours that you believe were not plagiarized" be interpreted as all answers.
@GeneralGrievance My favorite response to a plagiarism mod message was, verbatim, "Im not copypasta. No! But, I programmed it"
@RyanM That's horrible. And funny. But mostly horrible.
@AdrianMole Let me guess - the answer included something like "I found this useful"
15:29
@RyanM Clearly not a pastafarian...
My response was: "If you can provide evidence that you are the author of that content, we will consider restoring it. However, it seems very clear from what we can see that you are not. Among other reasons, it was posted by multiple different GitHub users."
They have not taken me up on that offer.
Can anyone verify if the code in this question is Objective-C or Objective-C++?
... I'm ~85% sure but don't want to make the tag edit without a bit more certainty.
Well, it's objectively not C++.
...but you knew that, of course.
Yes. But I don't want to just remove the one language tag without adding the (correct) replacement.
I know, I just wanted to make the pun.
15:33
But it's not even Punday.
isKindOfClass: is definitely objective C
the author indicated obj-c
@AdrianMole It's always Punday on some planet.
Obj-C or Obj-C++, though?
15:34
given the "++" is missing we can go off of what the author stated, no?
@HenryEcker Then it would be Objective-C++ if it uses C++ stuffs.
Isn't Objective-C++ just Obj-C and C++ with support for for both syntax. I think that author is looking for help with the C++ part.
@HenryEcker I don't think it can be answered purely in terms of C++. It needs both an Objective-C++ compiler and someone who knows that language. I changed the tag. It would likely just have got tons of downvotes if the C++ tag is left.
Works for me :)
random object/data type question. So I'm looking to implement a feature like man search boxes have where suggestions are shown in a list and as you type, the suggestion list narrows based on your continued data. I always thought this was called a 'soundex lookup', but in reading a bit about it it seems that may refer to something else.
Does anyone know what the feature I'm thinking of is called?
15:49
err
isn't that just an autocomplete
Aha, I think it is called 'incremental search'
Incremental search?
That's what VS calls it anyway.
incremental search sounds more appropriate
Yeah, SharePoint had that feature and it is pretty useful for long lists like scenarios like 'pick a user whose access you want to mirror for this new user' when you have thousands of users to choose from
building a replacement form that ideally will include that feature
never done one of those type of lookups before so wasn't sure what it was called.
@TylerH Yes, and unfortunately, many widget libraries have this feature (e.g. DevExtreme), but don't ever mention the word "incremental."
15:59
I don't write code all the time these days so when I do I always start out really dumb for a bit until I remember everything
like yesterday I wasted an hour because I forgot about string vs string[]
then another hour on an off-by-one problem
at least I get decent quickly again X_X, then I don't program again for a while and forget it all
16:56
300 posts deleted today. Okay, back to real work again...
@cigien While the current close reason is blatantly wrong, this may well be a duplicate. If one is found, feel free to bin the request.
17:14
Is there a point to me flagging a question as VLQ now that I have close-votes?
I kind of forgot that existed.
@GeneralGrievance If the question is actually VLQ and not just close-worthy
VLQ flag for questions and close votes/flags don't have much to do with each other
A VLQ flag means the flagged post should be deleted. It's like a weaker R/A flag. It doesn't mean a question should be closed (and also doesn't give any indication why).
But it just goes to the Triage, right? And the options there are needs community edit (which I can do), flag (which got it there in the first place), or needs author edit (CV).
A mod may decline that flag (well, one mod likely wouldn't) but the others... If only to tell you to flag differently if you want a question closed
So this is what it feels like to run out of flags for the day. Kinda sucks.
If anyone wants to throw out some NAA flags (also look for undisclosed affiliation): "this blog" is:a score:..0 url:http
@GeneralGrievance Makyen once linked to this post.
17:24
@Spevacus But hey, at least you get 100 of them if you do it enough, and aren't capped at a mere 40 or 50.
@GeneralGrievance Do you feel like you don't have enough declined flags in your life? Do you want the fate of your flag decided by the random chance of whether the post is edited for some reason before a mod sees the flag? If so, then yes!
@JeanneDark While I suppose it's possible that Makyen could have linked to that, I'm not sure that's what you meant to link.
@GeneralGrievance I could still do with more. Especially comment flags.
@RyanM Thanks, sorry. It was this answer
@GeneralGrievance Yeah I threw up 100 today. If any of them included potential voting fraud, I'd feel like Dharman. Currently I just feel an aircraft marshal, waving two glowing sticks in the general direction of crap answers, yelling "Delete votes this way!"
Hmm that’s the old review flow chart.
17:27
@JeanneDark message corrected.
Thanks :)
17:43
🚽
18:33
Is this answer actually an answer or an attempt to reply and ask for clarifications?
it's a "Your code works just fine, please provide more information"
Seems like an answer to me. I don't know how it's useful though being a complete and total stab in the dark as to what the question is asking.
@KevinB There isn't any code.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
o/ the 48H debug just finished...
... and back to work.
@tacoshy definitely seems like the latter to me
i just saw someones account with 200k rep that had a 100 year long ban lol
I'm afraid that he will be still one of the "top reputation" users by then :D
Those bans are hard to get
Only staff can issue them.
20:41
100 years would be odd, too. Probably a Shog9 thing. Most staff bans are 10 years
21:24
"Accounts require manual activation. Ping a metasmoke admin in Charcoal HQ (room 11540)." 🤔
https://i.sstatic.net/wEj7y.png
@miken32 that's 11540 on Chat.SE, which is...admittedly less than clear.
Fortunately it now auto-pings an admin for you.
But you can drop by and double-check/confirm your intent
Thanks for the clarification
@Machavity yeah, I remember a time where someone PO'd Shog enough that he instituted a 100 year ban.
only one though
one person got banned from chat for thousands of years
lol
21:29
then unbanned. then rebanned for thousands of years again.
was it js chat related
Yes
classic room 17
decided to dig through the repository, and saw a "make js chat great again" issue and throught oo, politics
but no, it was my RO nomination
22:26
@KevinB LOL

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