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00:00
It's actually probably in a table in SEDE that I could look at.
... ugh, I wish I was better at searching GH. Maybe Shog can tell me what to search for. :P
@Catija GitHub search is ...a bit on the clunky side, in your defense.
Ah, well, at least it's not just us.
But.. there are two answers that are.. identical on two separate posts, no? :)
@Catija "upvoted".. :D
so, does it need to be edited "uv'ed" to be less fragile?
Do not mention votes in comments. Not even shorted. Keep it out..
00:11
@Scratte I hear you, but it was relevant to my argument.
Make another argument. If that is what makes you not want to reopen, then your point is moot.
We don't close or reopen post based on the score.
That part of the argument was to say that the answer was 0-voted until the war-votes started rolling in. (The community didn't deem it to be a "good answer" until the dispute began.)
"and it was only upvoted today because of this page" <-- that's not an argument, that's a rant.
@mickmackusa That's irrelevant. Lots of post do not get votes because no one looks at them.
We cannot use older pages with no upvotes to close new questions. It was because of the upvoted answers that the old page could be used to close the new page.
@mickmackusa I'm pretty sure the regex considers comment length in addition to the words used, so... dunno. Obviously some words don't matter like truly offensive ones but I think the "+1" is only deleted when it's short.
00:15
Then you need to phrase it differently. To me that injected sentence came off as a rant. "See you guys did here.. "
@Catija it turns out Shog can tell you what to check: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/5645585#5645585
Would it become a tolerable comment if the parenthetical phrase was removed?
@RyanM Can se get a "select * from Blacklist"?
@RyanM yeah... so that's in SEDE not GH. I think I even have a saved search for it.
@mickmackusa That would help, yes. Generally it helps to be less blunt and more diplomatic. It tends to get people more of what they're trying to do.
00:18
@RyanM Oh wait, but maybe that's the "things you can't post at all..." rather than "one-flag deletes
I'm busy for the next hour but I'll see if I can dig the regex up. (If that chat message includes it, I can't see it on my phone)
00:32
@KarlKnechtel It's voice-over-IP software. The whole tag is a dumpster fire, I'd estimate 80% of the questions are related to configuration or networking. Hard to clean up when almost every question gets a low-quality answer to boot.
 
2 hours later…
02:39
Should I flag to move all commentary to chat? stackoverflow.com/a/58221721/2943403
I feel that the chat needs to happen and it should probably actually be retained (versus purged). It is just making the page too long now.
Tim is still an elected moderator of SO?
^^ (I've flagged)
That seems to be an ongoing discussion.
03:10
@Braiam Tim Post was elected as an SO moderator in 2011. As is normal, Tim stepped down from being a moderator when joining Stack Overflow as an employee. After leaving employment with Stack Overflow, Tim went through the reinstatement process and was reinstated as an SO moderator.
03:24
@mickmackusa not the again...
03:50
@OlegValter furthermore, not a regex-specific gripe, but I am grated every time a high-rep user tells me that their code-only answer doesn't need anything else to be added. That adding explanation only make an answer worse. I've seen too many people of this same opinion on Meta too, so it's no use trying to post a new Meta question either. People just want to dump snippets instead of actually helping people/SO to grow as a resource.
yeah, I am also in the camp of "answers need explanation" with links to official documentation where possible at that. But it's likely pointless - I've come to think of the tag (and other related ones) as a stain on SO's surface
3
04:45
@DavidBuck something ate your link text. You're not the first one to run into this - did you send the cv-pls from a queue?
@RyanM Yes, first answers. Sorry - not the first time I've done that, either.
 
6 hours later…
11:49
8.8k posts waiting for review in First Questions ... huh?
I'm afraid that this will be used as evidence that the queues don't work and would be scrapped altogether.
@Braiam I don't remember the old First Posts queue ever being quite that big.
@AdrianMole Are they putting all new questions there?
12:04
I guess so. Where else would they put them?
Maybe, in the old FP queue, posts were reviewed more rapidly because "Close" completed the process. Now that works in the new queue, maybe the size will shrink a bit.
Because we're not supposed to, any more. Unfriendly.
we should undelete all the crap from the last 15 years, that would be extremely friendly
I miss spam
Yahoo! Answers was a great success so why not emulate it?
12:12
What is the difference between "First questions" and " Close" review?
@Dharman I thought the idea was, rather than quickly closing first questions as "need details..." we are now supposed to leave the Community comment to give the poster a chance to fix their Qs before they get closed. Seems like the dev team aren't aware of the power of SOCVR. xD
I don't believe users will fix it before or after it gets closed
Also, why? They had all the time in the world before posting the question.
Believing and "Why?" aren't supposed to be part of the review process in this Brave New World.
If you have the close privilege then you should vote to close the question as soon as you can. Don't wait. Just VTC and move on.
@Dharman Is that official policy?
In First questions, I will use my CV privilege on, for example, duplicates and plainly off-topic posts (H/W, N/W admin, Dog-wormer, etc.) but use the "Leave feedback" option for those where it is relevant. Is this wrong?
@Dharman 7 years old. I'm working with a system that is 2 weeks old.
I think "First question" is pointless
Geh zum Teufel It's Friday ... dreck piling up
@Machavity is Tim Post a moderator now?
@Braiam Yeah, he was an elected mod and you can always pick the diamond back up if you want
^^ I even showed GordonLinoff 4 of his own answers that could have been used to close the question that he answered :)
GordonLinoff has answered the same question plenty of times. The question in SQL repeat after some time.
and as we know, pretty much nobody closes SQL questions or edits them
@mickmackusa What am I missing? db-fiddle.com/f/6G2SqCRvqyKXSTo9Dbo1R5/0
12:51
@Dharman That's actually very pejorative. Although I haven't (yet) seen a response to such feedback in First questions, I have seen just that in First answers. The poster added the requested details and the post was then re-submitted to the FA queue.
Ohh ok, they wanted to fetch where the sku matches exactly two values
@AdrianMole FA is different. People care a little bit more about answers.
But, had that answer just been flagged as NAA (it was link-only), it would have been deleted. The feedback allowed for the poster to correct the problem without going through the LQA queue and then having to undelete (or flag for undeletion, if it was ultimately made pink by Bhargav a moderator).
This is cruel and sarcastic can I flag such comment as rude?
So, on some levels, the Community Bot's feedback can be useful.
for answers yes, for questions I doubt it
12:58
@Dharman And what? Get Community suspended? Maybe flag the review.
too much work
Ha! So, when you next run for your Diamond, I'll leave a comment about ... lacks effort.
But, anyway, I think reports of poor reviews in the new queues will likely be 'overlooked' by moderators for a while.
... unless there's a Mole involved, of course.
13:37
@AmitJoshi Smells a lot like an XY problem.
14:22
Hmm is this a bug in the new reviews? The same comment generated from two different queues (Late answers and Low quality answers) appears twice, rather than upvoting the original.
... and, do the "Delete/Recommend deletion" votes from the two queues get combined?
The code formatting in this old question looks interesting. (top answer also looks somewhat NAA-ish to me)
Well, I reported it as a probable bug.
Can a < 10k user let me know if this link is visible (including the duplicate comments)?
You mean if the page will load for them?
14:37
@TylerH Yes - can the actual post and comments be seen by < 10k.
@AdrianMole answer not found
Ah, no the answer should not be visible
(and thus the comments shouldn't be either)
@KevinB You're not < 10k.
@JeanneDark Something was wonky with the html generator, the preview was ok.
14:39
Thanks. The suggested edits queue is full so I couldn't inspect it further
@AdrianMole To be exact, I see everything except for the answer (and comments), it's replaced with answer not found
@JeanneDark Thanks. I was wondering if the review link would be better in my Meta post, for those who can't see the post itself. But clearly it's not.
@JeanneDark I added a screenshot.
15:48
@Dharman sniped by sta above
16:09
Should this question be closed? Or just needs an edit?
@Vickel OK. I see, I didn't open the image, I just meant the question. Let it go with need details or clarity. Thank you. :)
@KevinM.Mansour it should say image of code :)
17:36
IMHO a low-quality question. can someone with laravel experience check if the question has any value?: stackoverflow.com/questions/69135972/…
17:57
@tacoshy I have little Laravel experience but I can tell you there's no value in that question
@tacoshy Is that a CV request? We have a specific format for that
18:17
I wonder why we can't see all sites we have a linked network account on in the 'other accounts' dropdown menu
like what's the point of hiding one extra link behind a dropdown?
I wanna be able to go to at least my top 5 or 10 sites from that dropdown
Is a dropdown and only have two items. Would be a link and serve the same purpose.
@Machavity I took it as tacoshy asking if it was on-topic/close-worthy, not a formal cv-pls
18:33
@TylerH Reminds me of a dropdown I saw once which had "true" and "false" as the only values (well, something essentially boolean - might have been "yes" and "no").
Everyone's a UI developer these days
18:55
@TylerH The issue was that for SO Teams they felt they needed a way which allowed people who are a member of a Team to be able to switch to their profile for that Team. Previously, there was a separate drop-down containing links to their Teams profiles, which was only displayed for users who were a member of one or more Teams. I can understand consolidating those into a single drop-down which also includes the Meta/Main and Network Account links for those users with a Teams membership.
OTOH, it would have been better to leave the links outside of a dropdown for the vast majority of users who are not a member of a Team. Given all the other stuff for which they create substantially different HTML based on the various characteristics of the profile, it seems like just not using a dropdown there for most users would have been the way to go (i.e. no Teams membership, then no drop-down).
2
I understand consolidating the teams links there too, but I mean, it's the perfect location to show profiles for other sites, too
and yes, I agree; if no teams membership, just show a link to their meta profile if that's all the content that's gonna be there
I thought I read Aaron responding to that on MSE somewhere saying "oh yeah we'll look into fixing that" but it's been 6-8 already
my understanding was that it'd never have more than the 2 links for normal users without a team
which makes it quite an inconvenient change for me
one that i'd happily go through the trouble of finding/making a userscript for
i'd never purposfully go to a user's network profile, i always want the meta profile or main site profile. if i did want to go to their network profile, there's a link for that elsewhere
19:28
Man, every time I see someone ask a question about CNN I have to resist the urge to comment and recommend they try MSNBC or Fox instead
people ask questions about news networks?
!!whoosh
:-)
hmm... i just got inboxed pinged for a comment, on the very page i was currently viewing, and had seen the comment
@KevinB I think just how it always works.
19:44
why
@KevinB Because adding code for edge cases take time/effort/additional cost to load every page/etc. for relatively little gain.
It should only ping you for stuff if you don't visit it within 2 minutes or something I thought
maybe that's only chat
Not to mention that the people working on it have to actually think about the edge case, which SE has consistently demonstrated that they don't really do, at least wrt. the UI.
Weird, super high rep users on other SE sites inherently think community voting is bad/doesn't work
other sites really are weird
20:00
like, voting by users in general?
20:27
@KevinB Yeah, the argument I'm seeing on RPG.SE from some users (luckily minority at this rate) is that yes actually OP does know far better than the community writ large, over time, even years later
And that all the other stuff that goes along with the accepted answer feature doesn't matter/is meaningless compared to the pin of the answer to the top
I dunno how they've survived so long with self-answered questions, mind you, since those have been unpinned for years
Ah, that debate
:shrug:
i never really felt like the accepted answer being pinned was at all a problem worth spending time on
if people are gonna just hit the first result, copy paste, and assume it's the right solution... i don't have any sympathy for their code being awful
it's gonna be awful with or without my help
i am curious though who'd be upvoting such content
for example, if i went to RBG.SE, i can't upvote anything
i don't have the rep
err
wait i can't downvote, i see
i can' upvote
but still, the question remains who's upvoting this stuff
and why
I don't understand why i'm still getting upvotes on the a == 1 2 3 answer
it's an ugly relic of the language that should never be interacted with
20:44
@KevinB Sure, but when you consider a broader context, such as "hey, I live in this world, too" it's better to make an effort to ensure the first result those people see is the right one
because, through the flapping of a butterfly's wings, if nothing else, invariably some of those people are gonna make life worse in a way that cascades down to affect us
@KevinB This may come as a shock to you, but people are still being born and growing up :-)
You're getting upvotes on basic stuff because young (usually) people are picking up programming for the first time
and SO is The Establishment now, so when people google how to do something, they're just as likely to find an SO answer as the top result as they are some tutorial or spec result
i mean, it still all boils down to who's rating the content. like, apparently there's "not enough people voting," and yet there's example after example of content that is wrong or poor advice getting pushed up the ranks
currently, it's impossible for someone coming from google to say "This answer didn't help" or "this answer is wrong"
something that's accessible pretty much everywhere else in one form or another
@KevinB You can modify it to make is as painful as possible to copy-n-paste
Or delete it :)
i can't delete it, only disassociate
20:54
Accepted?
accepted, +3k,
You can ask a moderator to delete it for you :)
effectively, i feel like we're preventing the very people that the content is being... created, curated, etc for from rating the content. How can we really know what is useful or not useful, if the majority can't provide that information
views is the only metric that remains really
but that doesn't help rate answers
the data here: stackoverflow.com/tools/post-feedback there's 50million votes that are effectively just being throwing into a bottomless pit. I'm not saying we should allow 0 rep users to vote, more, if a large percentage of anonymous votes for a post are negative... maybe we can put that to good use somehow
21:11
@KevinB What do you want? A return of the Thanksâ„¢ feature - but only for non-logged in visitors?
Or perhaps a "No Thanksâ„¢" button?
i like the, "was this helpful?" prompts at the bottom of help articles, for example
... I've seen 'comments' like "this answer is completely wrong" in edits suggested by anonymous users.
our design is up/down buttons that when clicked, tell you your vote won't actually do anything
I would like a button so you can send some of the authors of the questions to a deathcamp :D
Slightly harsh.
21:14
but i don't see a reason why we can't just use the existing signal
Joking aside. There will always be users, that don't argue for what they do.
And as far as I know, the mods consider down/upvoting based on opinion instead of facts, to be ok
shrug
surely people aren't just going around an anonymously downvoting things for fun to inflate that massive difference in vote composition between anonymous votes and non-anonymous votes
of course they are
it's the internet
60/40 vs 95/5
id' honestly trust the 60/40 more than the 95/5
but the 95/5 is what is used to feed the roomba
Are you saying that anonymous votes are anomalous, or that the anomaly is the anonymity?
21:17
I've seen plenty of answer during my time (when I wasnt registered as a member) where the answer that was not accepted, was much better
than the accepted answer
Or the answer with most up votes
crazy how we're the negative ones, when it's anonymous users who cast a far higher percentage of downvotes
sorry for being negative :D tired.
What do you call a deer with no eyes ?
No idea!
All things considered, its a great site. And there are no simple solutions, when you allow everybody to participate, regardless of history or analysis of votes.
an example... my oldest question received 2k views over 10 years. Not an incredible amount, but... more than the 18 total votes that occurred. does that mean it isn't useful? What was the breakdown of votes from unregistered users? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
at least 10 of the votes were from people mad at me for one reason or another
@KevinB It's the internet. Some people prefer to abuse instead of helping. Also the number of views is IMO not an indicator of quality - i.e. you click it, and think nahhh, on to the next one
Not that I have seen your question.
eh, in 2014, when the majority ofthe votes came in (4 years after it was asked) i was active on SO, both answering, and downvoting/commenting. i received a lot of downvotes on my very few questions during that time
i can only assume the events are correlated, aka revenge votes
21:31
I would assume that too
but, my point is, the anonymous votes wouldn't be revenge votes
they'd be votes on whether or not the answer helped them
I tried to ask the mods here, about down votes. They said "downvotes are good!". I concluded that the votes are not about facts, but opinion based, as I said earlier
Also, if you correct your answer, the downvotes don't go away ... which is kinda wierd.
But, by voting on a post (up or down), you are only expressing your opinion. What else would it represent?
by design
Exactly. And as you can see, people like Kevin and me want it to be fact based, not opinion based.
21:34
i'm more saying, there's more information out there that we can't see
not that i disagree with the result
Just like people moderate questions and answers, the votes should be moderated too
@Gowiser Sometimes they do. In C and C++, I've had a few downvotes, accompanied by comments, suggesting improvements. When made, the downvote often becomes an upvote.
i take revenge votes as a badge of honor. I was participating, it's not my fault people can't handle a little negative feedback
@AdrianMole Agreed. Of course people vote based on facts too
@Gowiser Well, I suspect Kevin wants the votes to be based on opinions about the posts' content, not on whether someone is mad about something unrelated.
@Gowiser This part is...unfortunate. I wish there were a better system for handling this. There've been a few feature requests aimed at solving it, but no one has come up with a solution that wouldn't generate a lot of annoying noise for voters.
21:36
I'm just mad. Does that count?
If the answer solves the question and is bug free ... down votes should not be allowed
I feel that anonymous feedback could be put to better use, effectively
it should never result in rep gain/loss or privileges gained/lost
@AdrianMole Have you considered taking out your anger by upvoting content of mine that you find to be high quality? (this is a joke please do not do voting fraud)
but, it should be usable as a signal for situations where the current score of a post is wildly off base for how useful the post actually is
or not useful, etc
@RyanM I would consider that option if I could find any of those mysterious high quality posts. xD
21:37
@AdrianMole ...okay, I walked into that one.
I am curious of what the anonymous breakdown is on stackoverflow.com/questions/3945243/…
also, hehe
cfflush, 🚽
@Gowiser When you find a way to determine, at scale, whether code solves problems and is bug free, please let me know so that I can invest in your company.
? The same way that you decide everything else
by moderation
Indeed! We could have people vote answers up if they work for them, and down if they have issues, and ...oh, wait.
Are you trolling?
21:40
Yes, a little bit, sorry. More seriously, our moderators have neither the time nor the ability to try every single answer to know whether it works or not.
We have moderators that have extra privileges. These moderators could check a question/answer for quality, and remove down votes if they are obviously usefull questions or answer
ideally, people upvote when it's useful, downvote when it isn't
but that's the crux of my complaint, the vast majority of visitors... don't even have an account
They do (with the help of community managers) try to remove fraudulent voting that's based on being mad at the person rather than based on the content, but sometimes it's impossible to tell.
and you can't downvote with less than 125
I mean, people don't even up vote OR accept the only answer, which is the correct one. so you could also have moderators that make sure to accept answers, that aren't accepted
21:42
@KevinB Got to the bottom of the issue w/ those users on RPG.SE I think; they think SE sites are "helpdesk for OP only" apparently
Thare are many ways to improve the situation
i mean, if that's what the rpg.se community needs,
the programming community clearly needs a help desk
Well, in my organization, the help-desk needs a programming community. ;)
I feel like making my first question on superuser asking why my old unix box says love doesn't exist:
$ make love
love doesm't exist. don't know how to make love
@Gowiser Right, but like... that doesn't scale. We've had 87,867 posts in the past week. We have 24 volunteer moderators. Even if they were all active 7 days a week (they're not), they'd each have to review 523 posts a day to see if they're useful or not, to see if they've been voted on correctly.
21:46
Yeah ...
(and that's also just the posts that weren't deleted)
@Gowiser I predict this question will receive downvotes, in case you're considering actually posting it.
Of course not - it's friday night, trying to lift the mood.
for us here
Just checking :-)
i'm in a great mood, if it seemed like i wasn't
I don't know you (yet?), so I'm not sure of your sense of humor :-)
21:47
when i'm complaining about something, i'm exactly where I want to be
2
@KevinB Ha!
@KevinB welcome to the internet, you'll fit in well ;-)
I think it's an occupational hazard (programming) to become pedantic and quarrelsome
@KevinB I'd be curious for my question here...it has gotten a large number of views, but not much voting activity. I suspect it's mostly useful to people who can't upvote.
Or I'm a terrible writer and just good at picking titles. But I hope it's helping people.
It refers to another question, ergo no upvotes
21:51
a dialog like this one is enjoyable to me, because I'm not just complaining... I'm thinking, researching, learning, trying to solve a problem or prove myself wrong
2
@Gowiser I can tell you for a fact, based on experience, that a large number of people who've been pointed to that dupe do not find it useful for solving that problem :-)
Anecdotally, I do feel like I've seen fewer extremely obvious Android NPE questions...so maybe it's working. Or maybe Kotlin is getting more popular and has different error messages. Who knows :-)
I've had collogues that copy paste solutions from stackoverflow with no clue whatsoever. shrug
21:52
@KevinB communities that need that should seek a different platform
@RyanM I would never search for such a problem, I would debug my code
@Gowiser Well, if you don't understand how to read the message, it can be harder...also sometimes the Android debugger is, um...finicky.
Agreed.
21:56
@KevinB Yeah, I posted a feature request on MSE the other day, and Journeyman Geek convinced me it's not as clearly a good idea as I thought.
But it was a useful dialog all around :-)
I am in azure b2c hell myself, the documentation doesn't correspond to the GUI, and the changes they made causes their tutorials and code samples to not work, etc.
@RyanM I still think the problem I want to solve is real, but that maybe the solution needs a little more baking.
On top of that, they are filled with links -> 404 page not found
So I know we can't post close requests for old inactive questions, but there's no such time limit on delete requests. So is it ok to post delete requests for bad answers to those old questions that are stopping roomba?
I miss my good old BSD system with my man pages and source code
Thank you for company. Goodnight, and thank you for making a difference.
22:00
Cheers o/
@miken32 Yep, nothing wrong with deleting old, bad answers (though note that it requires votes from 20k users and not just 10k, which are slightly harder to come by)
though a lot of our 10k users do have 20k now. and some (hi Tyler) are getting close.
Ok I figured so, just didn't want my attempts to clean out all the old junk in to be seen as creatively getting around the rules ;)
Also, it's a good idea before I use up my remaining delete votes :D
@RyanM I think miken32 has a point. A del-pls on an answer to an off-topic question is pretty much guaranteed to get the question closed as well. Such a request would effectively be a cv-pls, no?
If people have enough close votes available then let them
22:16
Personally, I'll often skip cv-pls requests that are roomba-bound and unlikely to see additional interaction (especially when I'm short on votes). So I could see people just deleting the answer and letting the roomba eat the question.
That's my intention (to let roomba do it's thing) and I'm strictly looking to deal with answers that are very low quality. That last one I posted, the question isn't terrible and I didn't VTC. But the answer is useless.
It looks like it answers the question to me. It could be improved by showing how to compile with debugging info, but it doesn't seem particularly delete worthy.
22:34
The worst thing about these review queue changes for me is that it broke Samuel's Review Queue Helper userscript's edit function, so now I can't edit inline in the close queue.
Waaaay too many clicks to strip out the [android-studio] tag on questions that aren't about the IDE...
I don't think it's there any more, but the wording in the VLQ or triage (?) queue for rejecting an answer used to include "it should possibly be a comment..." Single sentences that are step 1 in a potentially very complex process are what comments are for IMO.
@miken32 Actually, I've changed my mind. There's not enough value in the answer to make it worth preserving.
Yay validation!
lol
23:16
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Seems narrow enough to have received a decent answer.
@cigien Case in point: one of the questions received zero close votes and one upvote :-)
@RyanM So it has :) The point is still that one could get around the recent-activity limit on any question if it has a bad answer. Not that I think this is likely to be abused or anything, it was just an observation.
23:56
This is link-only and should be NAA-flagged, is not?
... or even maybe spam? (The linked article was posted yesterday.)

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