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09:01
@AdrianMole Clearly. You're putting your version control commit messages into your source code as comments!!
Yeah. Actually, I don't blame the scientists; I blame MSVC. It should realize that, when I changed the radio-button control IDs, I needed to change which one had the WS_GROUP style.
Hah. No.
Another common failure mode: not forcing a rebuild all after changing resource IDs (since the resource header is stupidly marked no-dependencies).
@CodyGray I'm immune from that one! I refuse to use the Visual Resource Editor in ASP_STUDIO mode, and my resource header is included by the C++ file that generates the precompiled header, so any changes will force a rebuild.
So you don't use the resource editor at all? You format dialog box layouts by writing code?
I do that after everything has been built and laid out, when I'm just making minor tweaks, but I'm not nearly hardcore enough to do it from the beginning.
Mostly, yes. I have separate projects where I can use the Visual resource tools, or just fiddle about with things.
09:11
Other than avoiding the need to rebuild, how is that an advantage?
I always do a full rebuild for any released build anyway.
Also, I don't see how including your resource header in the precompiled header file has anything to do with it. As long as the resource header has that "{NO DEPENDENCIES}" annotation, changes to it won't force a rebuild. I suppose you're saying that you manually removed that, and nothing puts it back because you don't use the resource editor?
Dare I suggest another failure mode that this strategy brings up: someone (you, or someone else) accidentally double-clicks the resource file in Visual Studio, which will bring up the Resource Editor, thus breaking your everything and ruining your day. (Sure, it's possible to steadfastly ensure that you always open the resource file as code, but one day you might forget. Or someone else might edit your project.)
Maybe a bit of inertia (large bit). But also I feel more in control, especially as I have a tendency to use resource IDs in a quite "non-standard" way. (For example, any EDITTEXT with ID n would have an associated TEXT label with an ID of n|0x8000.
Oh yeah, the designer would not like that.
At best, those would all get folded into constants. At worst, it wouldn't work at all.
I use that for 'merging' help popups and the like. Also, I can then use custom classes that automatically disable/enable the text when I do that to the edit. And similar things.
On the 'accidental double-click' thing, I have this in my 'global' header: #if defined(APSTUDIO_INVOKED) <br> #error Nassty programmer - Mussn't do it
The smell of lessons learned the hard way.
Heh. Since coming to SO I've been realizing just how long I've been "out in the woods on my own." Only very occasionally would I interact with other programmers. But I love it - I've been making huge improvements to my code base over the past 18 months or so.
09:22
@AdrianMole When you get done soaking in the cultural milieu, you can go back and read the entire archives of Raymond Chen's blog. You're guaranteed to find several things that you did wrong somewhere in your Win32 codebase.
it is sobering ...
That could be helpful for @AdrianMole ;-)
Hic!
Raymond and I have crossed paths (in comments) once or twice. The guy knows his stuff!
Yeah, now that Raymond Chen has a SO account, I don't have to answer Win32 questions anymore. :-)
It was fun for a while (pre-mod days) when I managed to appear in the list of close voters with Hans Passant and Raymond Chen. Nobody was going to trot out that old canard about "my question was closed by people who don't know the answer/don't understand it!"
09:42
One of biggest (and nicest) surprises was discovering how many serious WinAPI experts are on SO. At first, I feared that it would be in the "Unix or you're worthless" camp.
There are perhaps a dozen.
Remember that the site was started by a C#/.NET developer and initially promoted via his blog, so the Windows ecosystem has always been alive and well here.
Plus, we don't allow that kind of toxic platform bigotry behavior.
But still no Gold Badge for MFC (although you're one of the closest).
Nobody?! Wow.
Not even close, really.
I'm the most recent person to earn the MFC silver.
One fellow has 395 rep in the MFC tag from one answer.
...and the question is a duplicate like 9 million times over :-(
09:49
I recognize only 5 of the top 20 as active users.
I know at least 10 of them (including myself) well as active answerers. But I don't know about their activity lately.
I'll need to work harder for my bronze badge, at least.
... but it's hard to get the big upvote hits in that tag. If I get 3 or 4 on an answer, I'm happy.
Yeah, it's not like the trendy, popular tags. You don't get big hits, so it takes time and dedication to provide consistently useful answers that get accepted.
But, again, I've found the site extremely useful for getting answers to problems I've had with MFC. Another significant factor in why I stayed around.
You haven't gotten any answers from me, I don't think. :-(
@TomerShetah It means that the Q&A will not be automatically deleted.
10:00
@CodyGray Most of the answers I got were from already-existing posts.
@CodyGray Thanks!
@AdrianMole Ah, so you may have drunk from the fountain of knowledge after all.
More of a barrel than a fountain, but yes.
Oh, because it has that distinctive, toasty, aged flavour? Yeah, that makes sense.
10:28
Do comments added under "Causes harm" in Edit Review audits get saved anywhere? Or does the whole thing just get recorded as "Passed"?
... I felt like adding something along the lines of, "If this isn't an audit, then I'm a baked potato."
@AdrianMole nope.
@rene Not relevant! Potatoes and teapots are very different kettles of fish. ;-P
OK - my first time. I assume cross-posting identical questions from other sites (non-SE) is frowned-upon. What's the proper action for this, which is remarkably similar to this.
(I came across it in the edit reviews, while Googling how to spell Schwefel, Schewel and shewel.)
10:44
@AdrianMole bah. I would flag for a mod and call it plagiarism. But if those posts are from the same OP then it is ok-ish. Can't tell if that is true here.
It's an exact copy-paste. Not sure if that suggests the same or different user. For an answer, I would mod-flag plagiarism. But a question? Maybe they're not happy with the MathWorks answer, so tried out SO for a better one?
@AdrianMole Yeah. Could be. I had the same thought on question vs answer wrt plagiarism. I think it doesn't matter. if you allow a blatant copy for a question then a blatant copy for an answer should be allowed to. Having different rules per posttype doesn't make lots of sense and weakens our position in handling / fighting plagiarism.
You can't plagiarize from yourself, so if you think it's the same user, it's not plagiarism.
We don't allow cross-posting between SE sites, so that should be mod-flagged and deleted on one of the sites.
@CodyGray Yeah, that would be the only exception. I can't determine that in this case.
For cross-posting on a non-SE site... meh, I don't know. As far as I know, we have no policy surrounding that, and I'm not sure we should.
Oh, I see. The user name is gibberish.
10:50
Let's make a policy then, right now.
It looks like the same user, based on the comments that are left. (The post itself could be copy-pasted, indeed, but the user seems to have a certain thing that they want. I don't know why anyone would be that diligent about copying the spirit of comments.)
I don't make policy; I just enforce it. Mods are executive, not legislative.
It is enough to have your insight. I think I agree. I propose @AdrianMole brings it to meta if no policy exists there or on MSE.
Looking at the existing posts on MSE and MSO, it seems there isn't even really a clear consensus on if cross-posting between SE sites is OK.
Although we generally enforce that it's not, unless the questions are actually tailored in some way to the two sites. Meaning we nuke copy-pasta.
There is a FAQ, though, and that reaches a more definitive conclusion.
(Still doesn't address non-SE sites.)
And also this dupe, posted by my doppelganger (and, ironically, pointed out by me as a possible duplicate under my former nom de plume).
And meta.stackexchange.com/questions/22657/… (no fun story on that one)
^^ cc @AdrianMole
Ask and ye shall receive.
Yeah - that (first) Meta.SE post pretty much covers what I was thinking. If it is the same person (as seems likely) then why should there be a policy preventing it. If it were a highly 'upvoted' question on the original site, and a brand-new user on SO, then it could be construed as voting-fraud; but that's not the case here.
Agreed.
11:04
Well, I left a comment pointing out my discovery. I'll leave it at that.
Was just coming back to add that... It never hurts to leave a link to the other site in a comment.
Worst case, it'll serve as a breadcrumb for future moderation. Best case, that other site will get a better answer first, and then the answers can be cross-referenced by future viewers.
Best to adopt a neutral, non-accusatory tone, such as, "The same question has been asked on the MathWorks community forum."
@CodyGray Feel free to edit (too late for me).
Oops. Did you beat them over the head?
I meant edit my comment (to a less accusatory tone).
@TylerH Aye! :) I've been writing "no debugging effort" because I was lazy to write something like "OP didn't perform necessary debugging steps to localize the minimal part of code which does not produce the expected result, and the question in its current state won't be useful to anyone except the OP". But since this comment is not clear enough, I'll then leave it out in the future.
11:13
@Georgy That can be shortened to "lacks MVE".
(Assuming that the question should be closed. Otherwise, it can be shortened to "needs downvote", and then not posted in here.)
4
11:38
Mornin' all \o
@Nkosi Flag as abusive
@Dharman What makes you think those two are sock-puppets? Is there some clue that I missed? xD
hmmm, the name, similar content
Ah! Totally missed all that.
Looks like they are testing the makings of a bot.
12:08
@CodyGray Can you, please, take a look at this question and suggest what to do about it? How to continue for loop until it meets condition? We closed it as needs details or clarity because it's.. well.. unclear. Only after seeing OP's comment under the accepted answer I understood what they really wanted. The problem is that it's a "chameleon question"...
...The original question has duplicates and the answers to this question here don't add any value IMHO. The second question doesn't have duplicates. And there is only one answer here that addresses it, though it's quite inefficient. (The accepted answer is wrong btw.) I could edit the question for reopening but most of the answers would be left invalidated. Or we could just delete everything and lose some value - the question itself and one of the answers.
@Georgy Just edit the question, if you believe you can reopen it. That's what the edit button is there for, fix things ;)
@Braiam Hmm.. But what about all the invalidated answers?
12:27
@Georgy If the question was closed earlier, would they exist?
@Braiam Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean :) But the question should've been closed at the very beginning as a duplicate of, for example, Python Repeat List to Max Number of Elements.
@Georgy If you are going to edit so it becomes eligible for reopening, then you should always ignore answers. They were answering a question we shouldn't be answering in the first place.
@Braiam I see. That makes sense. I'm going to wait for a reply from Cody, but now I'm more in favor of editing rather than deleting. Thanks!
Though, I still feel uneasy about the signal to noise ratio :S
@Georgy Some deletion would be required ;)
13:09
@BhargavRao 3 months on Stack and then a moderator?!? That's fast :O
@Georgy Ermm.. no. I do not think @Braiam is saying something there's consensus about. Quite the opposite. Do not invalidate Answers.
13:21
Why was this Answer deleted?
@Scratte duplicate
@Scratte In our case they are already invalidated by OP's edit. It's a "chameleon question".
@Scratte Deleted by Bhargav with this comment: Please don't add the same answer to multiple questions. Answer the best one and flag the rest as duplicates, once you earn enough reputation. If it is not a duplicate, tailor the post to the question and flag for undeletion.
13:39
@Georgy Ohh.. I see. That's a right mess then :(
@AdrianMole Thank you :) Now it makes sense :)
I guess a 10K sock wouldn't hurt..
14:07
@CodyGray Oops, I missed that somehow. Understood, I won't flag those.
 
1 hour later…
17:16
@Machavity clean up please.
@Georgy Why does that need deletion? I'm not even sure why it was closed in the first place. There's an MCVE, with input, output, and expected output. OP thinks they're sorting ints, when in fact they're sorting strings lexicographically. I'm not sure that's a typo.
@bad_coder sorry?
@cigien That's not a typo, but a misunderstanding by OP. Many users do apply the 'typo' reason for such problems based on the other description text for that close reason (e.g. "solved in a manner that is unlikely to help future readers"), AKA a fundamental misunderstanding of some aspect of programming.
@rene I just cast the 3rd vote on a few posts, so I request them moved to graveyard so reviewers don't waste their time looking at the closed posts.
@TylerH Hmm, aren't most questions due to a misunderstanding of some aspect of programming? ;) But I see your point about it not being useful to future readers. Does it need deletion though? Seems like a reasonable question to answer. Won't all the users involved lose all that rep now?
17:22
@bad_coder I see. I guess the please at the end makes it fits the be nice and such. To me it read as that you were issuing commands at us, which comes across at rude. I'll accept there was no bad intent here.
@cigien not necessarily! Some can be purely unknowns rather than misunderstandings
but regarding whether it needs deletion, that's up to each user to determine
as we often say, requests are not 'do this or I stab you', but 'please review this for the action I am proposing'
@rene Mess with the flower, and you get the blur...
Hmm, doesn't have the same ring to it as the bull and the horns...
@TylerH I understand. OTOH, it seems I can either agree, or abstain. How do I cast my "don't-delete" vote, so to speak? Is it acceptable to vote to reopen to prevent deletion, even if I don't think it needs reopening on its own merit?
@Scratte 3 months in Socvr not on SO.
Spending time in SOCVR just makes you want take things into your own hands
^ +1
17:39
@BhargavRao Oh. Well, that makes more sense to me. Though some people are just very very good learners :)
Some are even so good that they remove NAAs before I flag them :D It's like they're reading my mind. Which is a good ability to have as a moderator :)
Please roll back to remove answer stackoverflow.com/q/65162667/11573842
Thank you @Dharman
@KenWhite Requests for official sources are generally on-topic, as they do not lead to opinion-based answers (there's a Shog9 (?) answer to this that I could dig up in a little while, but I have to get ready for a meeting very shortly)
^ +1
@RyanM this?
@Yatin that's the one!
17:53
@Yatin "When is a resource request on-topic?"
:51109842 In case that was your CV, do you mind retracting it? It'll get pushed into the queue otherwise.
18:05
@rene I don't give orders. First because I value and respect freedom a lot, second because I'm not a RO, nor a mod, so it wouldn't be my place to tell others what to do. When I do give an indication (or some reminder) more times than not -in hindsight- I wonder: should I have said nothing?
let's write it off on my grumpiness and move on. I'm sorry.
@rene there is nothing to be sorry about esteemed Rene, indeed if there is some fault to be found it is likely my excessive chattiness and, my occasional, eccentricity.
@cigien there is no 'don't delete' vote, though you can do what you've done already and ask the requester why they posted the request/that you disagree with it. If enough users disagree strongly with something, a request can get binned by a room owner. Re: reopening, you can of course reopen vote however you like, though I would encourage you to only reopen vote questions you think deserve to be reopened.
@bad_coder there isn't really a need to ask ROs to run the cleanup script -- if we haven't run it in a while it's usually because we are not here (and so asking us to do it while we're not here will not have any use) :-) Once a room owner (or Cody or Bhargav, sometimes) hops back into the room, rest assured they will run the script to cleanup the transcript.
A few extra clicks for users is not that big of a deal anyway. If they are that concerned, they can install the Unclosed Request Review Script which will tell users how many relevant votes a question has and grey it out/minimize it if it's completed :-)
@TylerH Ok, that makes sense, thanks. Yeah, I won't vote to reopen, it was just a reactionary thought. I'm starting to understand better why many users were upset by my suggesting deletions en masse. It seems that once a deletion is suggested for a post, even for a weak reason, it'll get deleted unless there's a much stronger reason not to delete it. Other users had said that, and I didn't entirely believe them.
cc @Scratte I'm agreeing with you more and more in this it seems. I'll be much more careful in the future re deletions.
@TylerH Jut a thought, could the cleanup script be run on a schedule?
18:19
@TylerH you are right. I had done it a few times only to arrive at the conclusion the gesture makes for a nuisance. It won't happen again, thank you for taking the time. Thumbs up.
@halfer Technically it is possible, though it would require a room owner to write some code to automate that.
At the moment that's not really need, I don't think
@cigien Yes, there's a well-documented trend on Stack Overflow that stuff gets closed/deleted way more often/quicker than reopened/undeleted.
In part that's inherent in what closing/deleting is for (stuff that should be removed from the site)... but part of that is an unfortunate side effect of how the system is designed
it's just not worthwhile enough for a lot of users to visit the reopen queue for example.
The question/post 'subscription' feature that recently come out should help with that, and the review queue redesign that lands sometime in 2021 (I'm guessing) should also help greatly
especially if they adjust it so that only the first edit by OP sends a closed question to the Reopen queue
@TylerH Yeah, and I have seen the evidence that that is the case. I've been letting my optimism get in the way of accepting it, I guess. I'll try and be more careful about that.
@TylerH I must have missed that completely. What is that? Is there a meta link you could share?
Crap, I'm not finding anything on meta re "Subscription", or review queue redesign. Should I be looking on MSE?
@cigien it was announced on MSE, but it is not literally called subscription (hence my quotes); I think it is the Follow feature: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/345661/…
Oh, I've recently started using that feature, it's super useful. I had no idea it's a relatively new thing. Thanks for the link. I'll try to dig up the review queue redesign stuff myself.
Anything that applies network-wide, and some stuff that's only applied to SO, is announced on Meta Stack Exchange, so look there first
18:33
Yeah, I'm always confused by the MSE/MSO distinction. This seems promising. It looks relatively new at least. Am I on the right track?
Hmm, there's also this. Ok, ignore me, I'll take a closer look, and ask later if I have questions. Thanks for the help.
@10Rep I'd approve it
@cigien Yes, that's the one. Re MSE/MSO, there used to be only MSO, and it was where all announcements were made for network-wide changes. Several years back (2015? 2016?) it was split so that MSE would exist for general network-wide discussion, and MSO would be specific to Stack Overflow.
There was a lot of confusion when it happened.
@Dharman Ok, I just approved it. Thanks.
@10Rep though the edit summary doesn't seem to make sense. It's perfectly copy-pasteable in either format
18:39
Well, it is that anonymous person who seems to be everywhere....
@Dharman man that's confusing. The script is smart enough to write the question title, date, and poster in RTL when the post itself is in a RTL language
@TylerH Yeah, Cody had explained it to me at some point. Apparently not all posts got moved to the right places either, so posts that should be in one place are in the other. Oh well, if it was easy, it wouldn't be fun ;)
@10Rep there is more than one anonymous user that makes edit recommendations :-P
Actually the only case where it's probably the same person is in -- there's a user there who uses the API to recommend lots of edit suggestions to clean up questions. Those come across the queue as by 'anonymous user'
I assumed it was this user.
But now that I think about it, the world is full of people, so that thinking makes no sense :D
@cigien I did not expect that to happen :)
@Scratte How come?
19:51
@cigien Good question. Perhaps because I'm not used to people openly agree with me :) Or at least not used to people changing their minds. I guess I'm used to arguing or something like that.
^Take care: Nasty ground level flying, armed consoles!
20:13
I admit, this is the first time I've ever seen someone use a praying mantis for scale...
20:47
@TylerH Bananas are too 2019
@TylerH That is not a very good way to scale. Why not use a ruler? I can't think that there's only one size of those husband-eating beauties.
Rulers come in different sizes too ;)
@Scratte Sorry to hear that you feel like your arguments fall on deaf ears. I don't think they do. Just a thought, but this may be your pessimism kicking in.
@cigien lol! Good one :)
@cigien That's changing too. I just figured a lot of people are kind of set in their opinions. If that makes any sense.
@Scratte It does. It's natural.
Noticed a post on main using ※ as a bullet point. It almost looks like snow :)
21:37
@LeviRamsey That post doesn't look like it's closed an also doesn't look like it's ever been. If you meant the linked one, you cannot request action on it, since you've answered that.
It does look like a strange duplicate closure though. A scala Question closed on a java one.
I brought it up when the original request was made. No one responded link.
I remember that. It bothers me when requesters do not respond. I don't think voters notices when a request is questioned. @bad_coder, did you notice it?
If one other user had confirmed, I would have asked an RO to bin it.
21:48
Oh. I should speak more I guess :D
Yes.
@Scratte Scala compiles to Java, as far as I'm aware, so Java answers are just as useful.
@TylerH Not following your logic. If I ask a Java Question and someone closes is on a Kotlin post, I'm not any closer to an Answer. Even though they both compile to the same bytecode.
Mind you, I have never used Scala, and I haven't used Java since ~2004, so if that premise isn't actually correct then I will consider casting a reopen vote.
@Scratte that seems backward compared to this scenario. The Java question was not closed as a duplicate of the Scala question, but vice versa.
the core of the question is Akka, which is written in Scala, so there's not really any use in specifying Scala
Akka itself runs in a JVM
so saying a Java answer isn't helpful doesn't make sense to me
Hmm.. that makes sense. I've never used Scala.
21:54
The blind leading the blind :-)
To me it seems like saying you need to edit a style and you are using Sass, and someone closes it as a duplicate of the CSS canonical. Sass compiles to CSS, so sure you might could answer it in Sass, but CSS is also valid Sass anyway, because Sass has to compile to CSS before it can be read by the browser.
but.. does that mean that all the answers can be compiled in akka?
@Scratte That's a good question. If someone who knows Scala/Akka well can clarify that Java in fact is not legal as Scala (e.g. Scala compilers go "hey wait a minute chief, this ain't it"), then I'm happy to reconsider.
However I'm skeptical of that because as the dupe target shows, you can use Java with Akka (and that makes sense given Akka runs on Java...).
Hmm. Not sure. The Answer on the duplicate does not look like it will compile with java. But the answers on the target looks like they're straight up compilable.
The target also already has answers that require different versions (e.g. OP was using 2.2 and the accepted answer uses 2.2, but a newer answer uses 2.4). So I would suggest that Levi's answer using Scala and 2.6 belongs on the target.
This would help the target get better visibility and usefulness to readers, and push it further toward a good canonical status
There's a lot of precedent for questions about a topic using a language or lang-in-a-lang getting many answers with various different languages and versions, when the languages are all compatible like that
The duplicate only belongs on the target if it compiles with java, no?
22:02
Levi's comment on the duplicate seems to indicate that Java is legal in Scala as I was saying earlier: (the Java in the answers in the target answer also works directly in Scala)
Ahh.. ok. But not the other way around. So you can't post the scala answer on the java target.
Is this conversation appropriate?
OP: Thanks, it worked!
Answerer: Glad it helped! Ping me when you ask another question.
@AnnZen flag as no longer needed
@Scratte Well, Akka itself is in Scala, so you probably can.
@Ruli I mean is it okay? Like a user asks simple questions, so the answerer wants to score more rep.
22:06
@AnnZen It's "not OK" in that it's not what comments are for. The most appropriate flag for such comments is No Longer Needed.
And it would appear to mods like two users making an agreement.
If you comment telling them not to do it, you're perpetuating the problem of noisy comments. If you flag for a moderator, they will likely decline with the reason "use the appropriate flag for noisy comments"
@TylerH It seems to be that scala will accept java. But the code in that answer is not compilable with javac. There's no "type" and the underscore will make it barf. And some missing ; will make it even worse :)
I'm assuming you're saying that it's okay.
Thanks, bye!
@AnnZen How could you get "it's OK" from "that's not what comments are for"?
22:09
They left :p
@AnnZen as Tyler said, it is not okay, you can tell them it is wrong and to avoid such actions, but flagging it as No longer needed is the best option
@AnnZen Consider that comments were about to be renamed, following Area51 example, since "commenting" conotates something that isn't what SE wants.
Except SE wants Questions to be answered, so comments are necessary. They want users to be able to communicate so Questions are clear and Answers are correct. Without comments that's not possible. Unless you want conversations in Answers.. :D
I'm hunting down the post by Jon Ericson and failing to find it.
Of course they are necessary, but not the "thank you" ones and ping me, SO is not facebook :)
22:13
@Ruli Wait for it... ;)
It was Robert, not Jon
I recommend anyone interested in tackling comments and their abundance of unnecessary ones to read that post and all its comments :D ^^^^
@Braiam you are some 7 mins late from the rage quit
"I ran the code in your answer and it removed every file in my repository :( You should warn users about this.." <-- is that an improvement?
@Ruli Mm? I pinged the user, so if they come back they will see it.
"This code doesn't provide the output that the Question is asking for. Are you sure you mean 'AND'?"
22:18
@Braiam that would be a great change
I'd even like it if there were two buttons, 'suggest improvements' and 'request clarification' that both left a comment, but labeled (like a GitHub bug report or something)
"Do not click the link! It's malware" <-- is that an improvement?
Then you could sort/filter based on whatever
@Scratte Yes, it is an improvement in the information provided to readers.
Although a flag might be most appropriate...
Sorry y'all, I gotsta blow my whistle. I found a page that is teeming with provably incorrect answers. Please review: stackoverflow.com/q/2221476/2943403
@mickmackusa Commenting on each wrong answer, and explaining why it is wrong/incomplete/uneducational is probably as much as one can do, IMO.
@Scratte FYI the user provided some further clarification about the APIs for Akka being incompatible with each other.
I voted to reopen
22:22
@TylerH It's not meant to be an improvement. It's meant as a warning that says on the post. If the tip says "suggest improvements", why would I post that?
Also note the very long trail of comments on that meta.. :D
Are incorrect answers wrong? I mean, I know they're wrong (being incorrect); but are they wrong? Advice on Meta says they don't merit NAA flags, just downvotes (and/or delete votes). So, are you implicitly asking us to downvote? Because that's wrong.
@mickmackusa (The live demo snippets in your comments are a great idea, btw).
@halfer cheers. I prefer to remove any doubt from reviewers/researchers/non-SME that my claims hold up.
@mickmackusa most what can be done is commenting and downvoting, you can try to vote for deletion but it will 99% be declined as the answers was attempting to solve the issue, regardless of its correctness
@AdrianMole I'd much rather start with a comment on those and see if they improve.
22:25
@Scratte Extremely useful information about code, like the fact it is a virus or will delete your system32 folder, is, I would argue, a major improvement to such a post that does not contain such a disclaimer already.
The thing about comments is that it's room for information about the post. As @mickmackusa has been doing on that Question, no?
@mickmackusa It seems you haven't downvoted or voted to delete any of the posts which are "provably incorrect".
@TylerH If my comment is going to get deleted anyway, I'll not bother posting it.
@Scratte What gets under my crawl is that these incorrect answers have already earned trust points from posting an incorrect answer -- unearned rep. Then if/when they edit their answer into something that works, that answer will have a headstart in the vote tally against a newer answer with fewer votes.
@Nick I have DVed and VTD on the page.
@Scratte you can of course choose to refrain from posting comments, but that doesn't mean you should discourage others from using comments as intended :-)
answers can get deleted too... does that mean you won't post any more answers?
@mickmackusa What do you expect us to do with them? Incorrect answers are fine, from a system point of view.
22:27
@mickmackusa Yes, that's the deal with late answers. They never rise to the top. The rising to the top is a lie. It's all about FGITW and tactical voting if you want to get rep.
@TylerH Are you asking me?.. that's down to a rate of one Answer every 3 months? :D Next one is due in February ;)
@Scratte I am not about rep (anymore). I care about the researchers' UX. The vote tally too often lies.
@mickmackusa Score and reputation is highly bound, no? :)
A page containing provably incorrect answers is horrible for the researcher UX. Imagine if you were reading a book and on every page there were randomly inserted jibberjabber and misleading sentences. You wouldn't enjoy the book very much. I don't think correctness is too much to ask. I don't think earning your rep points is too much ask.
To be fair a researcher should take Stack Overflow answers with as much salt as a random Wikipedia page :-)
@Nick How do you tell 3v4l to spit out the deprecated php version outputs? I wanted to do that the other day and didn't see how.
22:33
@mickmackusa for what it's worth, I would strongly encourage less editorializing in your comments there. If an answer is wrong, simply state that. Comments about 'misinforming researchers' or being 'utterly useless' could easily be seen as unfriendly.
2
LOL! "This is the correct answer to a different question."
@mickmackusa bottom right of the code window there's an eol versionscheckbox
@Nick Also TIL about 3v4l.org :-)
@Nick did you just change your avatar? Why am I seeing both the new and the old Eevee one when @ tagging you?
0.o
@TylerH that may be appropriate guidance, but we are trying to curate better content so that researcher don't have to be skeptical about the content.
@TylerH I live on it (to the extent that they've occasionally blocked me ;) because I always like to give a working example when I answer a question.
22:35
@mickmackusa Hopefully a researcher will appreciate/find a succinct/too-the-point comment more :-)
@TylerH weird - I changed it probably 5 or 6 weeks ago now. Perhaps it's just a caching thing because you haven't tagged me in the interim
perhaps
weird indeed
@TylerH "misinforming researchers" factually explains why bad content is bad content. I don't see "utterly useless". It sounds like something I might have said after receiving pushback. Maybe the comment was edited.
hmm, even after a Ctrl+F5 the first time I @ tag you it shows both, but the old eevee one is first showing the 'anonymous white person with gray background' filler image before the eevee one loads.
@TylerH You're just pinged two Nicks. StormyNick and FoxyNick :) FoxyNick is going to be crossed with you ;)
22:37
@mickmackusa Sorry, it was "literally" useless, not "utterly"
@TylerH I'm the ghost in the machine! :)
@TylerH Ah, I see it now. Well, to be fair, the previous comment says: "I don't understand the usefulness of the variable" I am stating the fact that it is "literally useless" and then why. If someone takes offense to that informative truth, they may be a little too touchy.
@mickmackusa at any rate, my question stands: what is it that you expect the room to do about the answers? We can't delete vote most of them as they are not negatively scored. And you linked to a whole page rather than to a specific post, anyway.
And as I'm sure you know, we don't allow downvote/upvote requests
@mickmackusa you missed one.
Some of the posts are negatively voted. But I can't expressly ask for del votes on a page where I've posted right?
22:43
@mickmackusa There are two reasons why you should ease up a little when you make those comments. Even if it's "literally useless" or "wasting time of researchers". When I read those I think (please don't shot me) "Wait what?!? Someone answered and then this grumpy person shows up with negative talk. That's just not nice!". If you could somehow phrase it so that people don't get a negative vibe about the comment, they'd have a better impact.
@TylerH In the FAQ, it states "del-pls is for posts that ... are within 1 downvote of being eligible for delete-votes". Now I presume this was intended mainly for questions at -2, but does it imply that it is OK to ask for a del-pls on an answer that has a net score of 0? If that's not the intent, could the wording be changed please.
^^ +1 For example, one of the comments there could just as easily been phrased along the line: It's not clear to me what the purpose of the $cols variable in your code is. Could you add some explanation?
@mickmackusa Oh, I didn't see an answer by you, if you left one. Yes, if you have left an answer then you are 'involved' in the question, and delete-pls requests are not allowed by you.
I find that stating "this is the correct answer to a different question" IS the nice version of "this answer is provably incorrect". Sometimes I put my kid gloves on when I comment, and sometimes I am just stating the facts as I see them. Especially when I have to comment on many incorrect answers on the same page.
@Nick Yes, that is fine (and when I was looking at the answers, I think most of them were at 1 or higher) -- it is inherent in deleting a post that you think it also is downvote-worthy, which is why the "within 1 vote" provision is there.
22:46
@mickmackusa When I read your comments now, I read them in a different light. I've come to know you a little and you don't seem to be as grumpy as the comments make it out to be :) But I know my initial reactions to some of your prose before I came to interact with you, and I assume that even if I'm a bit weird, I'm also human.. sort of :)
@AdrianMole so tedious.
Yeah, but it's the "be nice" policy. But "nice" can be wrapped in a think blanket of sarcasm.
@Scratte I'm not everyone's cup of tea. I, too, am human.
@AdrianMole the more "be nice" is strictly enforced, the less sarcasm/fun the community gets to have. note, my comments don't use any sarcasm -- I am presenting my facts (with emphasis at times).
@mickmackusa That one made me literally laugh. There's nothing wrong with that one :) You could say "This is the correct answer to a different question. This Questions asks for blah. Your post gives bloh" That's simple with no emotions :)
I've posted "Did you test this before you posted it?" on a few Answers when I can just see that it doesn't even compile.
@Scratte sometimes I roll that one out, but there are factors in that decision. did the poster just dump a snippet and run? did the poster honestly try to post a valuable answer?
@Scratte I fear "did you test" is not a loud enough warning to researchers. This alerts researchers that they, too, should test, but does not expressly state that the answer is not working as intended. I would rather be ultra clear to researchers and tell them "look elsewhere quickly, this answer is dead wrong".
22:53
Probably not. But readers are probably going to be emotional too. And if you attack a poster, they may be more likely to "side" with the poster. You may even make some of them upvote the bad Answer.
By my count the page being discussed has just 3 correct answers and 8 incorrect answers (alive) Not good for Stack Overflow.
@mickmackusa I did it mostly in Late Answers. Most were edited. Some self-deleted. The rest downvoted after a while. But something as simple as "Did you test this before you posted?" is enough for users to not assume the answer is fine. It's just enough to make them wonder. (I hope :-) It would certainly make me wonder about the correctness of a post.
@Scratte that one was admittedly strange, a "one-liner" using the same toolkit on the same VM, only the language differing...
@Scratte when I am not uncertain about the correctness of an answer, it doesn't make sense to me to hedge my position in the comment. I prefer to call a spade a front-end loader.
Okay, team. Gotta work. Laters.
I tend to agree with @mickmackusa that these are all the correct answers to the wrong question, and since the wrong question has many dupes on SO already, I don't see a reason to keep these answers around.
23:06
That.. doesn't seem to work on a multiline.
hmmm... my tags don't seem to have been converted into buttons...
@TylerH Is it working now?
@Nick Do we delete answers for being "misleading" here? (I don't feel strongly either way, but I don't recall seeing answer delete requests here, with that being the reason. Perhaps I have just not being paying attention).
@halfer If it doesn't add value, it's free game.
"Misleading" probably isn't a good enough reason, but add to that "incorrect" and not adding anything useful beyond what's already been posted sounds quite reasonable to me
23:21
Fair enough {thumbs up}
@halfer sorry, poor wording. At the start, some of the incorrect answers had positive vote scores, so that to me was misleading as it could make others think it was correct. However by the rules of the room all those posts had to have 0 or negative scores at the time of the request so that was no longer applicable.
23:46
Ha, copped another hit at stackoverflow.com/a/62276444/2943403 maybe this is the start of the wave of avengers (or maybe it is unaffiliated). So glaringly bad voting when my correct, explained, demo'ed, unique, valuable answers get dv'ed.
You know that voting (score) can be misleading already, no? :)
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