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20:00
Especially I find the distance of sience and problem interesting ;P
@πάνταῥεῖ Isn't the problem the guy siting casually on the front or the vehicle itself? Mmm...
@πάνταῥεῖ Not sure if you're trying to say that buddhist aren't religious.. or something. I think I see one on the truck.
@Braiam He's driving (steering) it :D
@Scratte No, you can't see me. I am under the truck.
@πάνταῥεῖ I saw that movie once.. well twice actually.
Total aside, I appreciate @Yunnosch's prompt for explanation: "Aww, that poor little piece of code. It is so lonely and afraid of negative feedback from the mean StackOverflow communitiy. Why not let it have some companionship and protection by adding an explanation. It might not get attacked for spreading the misunderstanding that StackOverflow is a free code writing service."
20:04
@Scratte Which one? The bullet proof monk?
@πάνταῥεῖ Actually "under the truck" made me think of "Cape Fear" 1991 version.
A not that bad one, respect.
What do we think about the 3 answers here? stackoverflow.com/questions/64573107/…
I edited out a "many thanks" from a question, but OP added it back. What should I do about this?
20:11
@Dharman: As for an example, looking back at my history, here's one instance. It's certainly well below my own quality standards, and is obviously a code-only answer. I marked it as Looks Okay. Four others marked as for deletion. To me, it clearly falls within Shog's plea for sanity. (This may not be the best example, it's just the first example I found. Still, it helps illustrate the point.)
@cigien Roll back
@cigien rollback once. Mod flag if it gets re-added
@rene Custom flag?
yes
@rene @Dharman Got it, thanks :)
Oh, sorry, should I also leave a comment explaining why I removed that?
20:13
@JeremyCaney Yeah ok, I'll give you this one. I am not sure why it was deleted
@cigien Not needed, but if you want to teach them something you can
@Dharman Ok, thanks.
@Dharman: I will say that it's rare for those answers to actually end up getting deleted, as was the case with that example. Typically, it's just that people leave a comment claiming it's not an answer and then vote to delete it—but, when I go back later, I often find that the "wisdom of the crowd" prevailed.
@JeremyCaney You can post those in the bad reviews room. I have noticed that moderators are stopping the deletion process a lot these days. I see a post that I think is flagged and then I wait until I see the review comment. I can then see the review where one or more users marks a post for deletion and then.. before it's been through the queue "This item is no longer reviewable".
20:34
@Scratte: Ooooooh, thank you! I didn't realize there was a bad reviews room. I'll definitely start taking advantage of that. I've often felt a bit helpless in the face of blatant abuse (or, charitably, serial misunderstanding) of the review rules. At least within LCP; I still don't trust my own understanding of the rules when it comes to questions, which is why you'll never see me in Triage.
@JeremyCaney In case you get lost it's Bad Stack Overflow Reviews. You can post any review in there that you think needs an extra look from the resident moderator. If I understand it correctly it's meant to handle bad reviews that would otherwise go unnoticed.
Triage was.. murder on my mind, my motivation to review, and my sanity.
@cigien Yes, IMO, a polite comment that explains why you are making the edit is a good idea, particularly if the user rolls back the edit. A rollback by the OP clearly indicates they saw the change and didn't want it, or didn't understand why someone would edit out just some polite words. You don't necessarily need to explain the first edit beyond something in the edit comment, but if the OP rolls it back, then they either disagree with policy, or are not aware of it.
Assuming they are not just not aware is a good first step. Adding a comment makes it more clear why you are re-doing the edit and helps them to understand what the policy is. It may be that they disagree with the policy, but we at least get past the step of them not knowing.
@Scratte: It's hard to tell how much of my phobia of Triage is deserved at this point. It was my introduction to reviewing, but I received several overlapping suspensions within short order that seemed to rely on judgment calls. By contrast, I appreciate the comparative clarity of LQP and reviewing answers in general.
@Scratte That said, I've since spent a lot more time reading the FAQs and hundreds of other meta threads, so it's entirely possible that what felt like ambiguous judgment calls at the time would be a lot clearer to me today if I gave it another try.
@JeremyCaney About "the rules of Questions". You're not the only one. There's I don't understand how to get more information about a review queue suspension and actually learn from it where I try to explain my view of this.
@Scratte My current sense is that the penalties for judgment calls are too extreme on Triage, while there should be more penalties for abuse in LQP. But, again, that may just be residual trauma from my introduction to the Triage queue.
20:46
@JeremyCaney I agree with you. I do not think you're wrong about this at all. I never did a review in the Low Quality Posts though. I did my shiny badge bit of Triage.
@Makyen Ok, that's helpful. I left this comment, which seems ok to me (is it?). It's tricky to explain why platitudes are not appreciated on SO, especially if the user is not a native English speaker, which seemed plausible in this case. In the future, I'll make sure to put a minor comment on the original edit, which addresses your last point.
@cigien This probably is a better form
Would it be overly teasing to add "hope this helps" in code in Answers as program output proving a snippet works?
That's simply noise
@Scratte I'll remove it
20:54
@πάνταῥεῖ Lots of small snippets needs some output, why is it more noise than "It works!"?
@Dharman From code too?
@Scratte BTW, why are your question marks not blue, white and red?
@cigien That comment seems fine. If it was mine, I'd probably revise it over time as I used it on other posts. I'd probably mention that it's actually policy that we don't include them and policy that they be removed. I'd also try to find an appropriate meta to link them to for further information/more detail.
@πάνταῥεῖ huh?
@Dharman German special ;)
@Scratte Probably, it depends on whether it is relevant.
20:57
@πάνταῥεῖ As in Bleu, blanc et rouge? :)
Ooops, there's an exclamaition mark in the middle. Sorry, I'm an 'ole chum, still too vain wearing glasses
@πάνταῥεῖ Yes, I think adding a comment pointing to that target (and similar ones) is a good first step. If the target actually is relevant, it's likely other users will use that to CV.
@πάνταῥεῖ It means "I don't get it. Ohh.. I get it :) What.. no, I don't get it :("
@Scratte polish, not like in nail ...
@Scratte I had such candidates as OPs at SO, yes ;-D
@Dharman Well.. I wouldn't add it if I didn't need some sort of text. I also add text to SQL questions as dummy data in tables.
21:02
But you are just playing with my bot
@Dharman Ahh.. doesn't it have a filter?
@Makyen Thanks. I'll certainly revise the wording over time. I'm going to think about how to communicate that it's policy without actually using words like "policy" though. That can seem alienating, or off putting to some people (again, especially new users, who are non-native speakers). An easy to read meta post is a good idea, I'll try to find something that's appropriate.
@Scratte No, there is no Scratte filter
@cigien Sounds good.
@Dharman It definitely need a Scratte filter :D Will "Help it hopes" pass?
21:04
@Scratte Yes
"Help! It helps!" is ok
@Dharman Not sure what "Yes" means. Your bot will see it or ignore it?
@Scratte You can cheat it regex101.com/r/n4wt61/2
@Dharman I did expect "happy coding" to be matched too..
Is it so common?
@Dharman Does it matter at this point? How many edits do you left of your current project?
21:10
I don't keep count
Thousands, I would guess
Naah.. not so common. Only 17,530 results
@Dharman Does your bot automatically edit-out stuff like "hope it helps" from any post? For example, doing that would push a NAA out of the LQP queue ... or do you have a mechanism to prevent that.
@AdrianMole Technically that's only VLQs, no? NAAs have to edited from within the review to push them out, no?
@AdrianMole Why would it push NAA out of review?
21:13
Doesn't it? Or is that only an edit from within the review queue itself?
1. The assumption is that most posts containing HIH are actual attempts at answering. 2. If my bot's NAA score is > 6 then it will not make an edit. 3. NAA flags are not dismissed with an edit
@Dharman I thought edits to answers invalidated NAA flags? Edits to answers definitely invalidate some kind of flag... maybe it's VLQ?
OK, cool! I suspected you would have included some kind of QC ... just wanted to confirm.
It invalidates VLQ flags
But how about an answer like: Try this [link]. Hope it helps!
21:16
If you flag as VLQ you expect someone to fix it with an edit
@AdrianMole It's an answer, right?
No! It's link-only.
... could even be spam.
@Dharman It's not the kind of answers we are looking for.
Ahh, ok then you should flag as NAA
Who knows, maybe even my bot would flag it instead of editing
Case study showed that there is a small overlap of HIH and NAA
AFAIK, those are autoflagged.
Aha - your bot isn't completely robotic, then.
21:18
According to SEDE I have made 6424 such edits
The irony is that one of the Natty user scripts flags link-only Answers as VLQ :D
@Scratte I have never used it. I don't know where you can get it
AFAIK edits to questions that are in LQP don't have any impact unless the edit is being done as an LQP review. Just editing it independently shouldn't do anything.
@Dharman It's the one called the "Natty Reporter" and here is a link to the source. I learned of it from a conversation in SOBotics starting here. There's an aditional user script that's not on the overview, but there's a link to that later in that conversation. But it's irrelevant to flagging posts.
@Scratte We have a problem for every answer! ;-)
Our dev team's motto
21:25
@Dharman Why do you use a custom close reason for non-english posts, instead of needs details/clarity? I know both are acceptable, I'm just curious.
@cigien Statistics. :D Also, I think it gives other people a deeper understanding of what to do when they see a NE-question for the first time.
I believe both is OK, but the comment should contain the link to the correct language specific SO site.
@cigien Can't speak for Dharman, but I use need details/clarity because I'm lazy. However, I have seen posts in the Reopen Queue that were closed with that reason, and the OP just added more details in the original, non-English language!
@Dharman Ah, the latter reason makes a lot of sense. I'm not clear on why the statistics matter though.
@AdrianMole Ah, I never thought of that :p I think I'll start using the custom reason then, thanks for pointing that out :)
21:30
Statistics show that statistics don't matter, but they feel good
@Dharman ... probably.
@Dharman Ah, good enough. One has to derive pleasure where one can, no harm in that :)
@Dharman Ah
@Dharman Hmm, actually I personally think VLQ to be unsalvageable with an edit, but NAA can usually be salvageable with an edit. At least most of the time
Code-only answers are flagged as VLQ
@cigien If the author doesn't know they're suppose to post in English, "Needs details or clarity" without even a comment on their post will not give them any hints as to what is wrong, no?
21:33
Or, as the Old Chestnut goes, Statistics show that six out of seven dwarfs aren't Happy.
2
@Dharman not sure I'd consider a code only answer VLQ. Low quality? Probably. Could/should be improved? Definitely. But a code only answer could completely and accurately answer/solve OP's question/problem. Hard for the solution to be VLQ.
@Scratte Indeed :) Adrian just made that point in fact, it's a very good reason to use a custom close reason.
this question basically boils down to "How do I do subtraction in Java": stackoverflow.com/questions/64581260/… I'm never really sure the appropriate flag. I used Needs Improvement | typo or unlikely to be useful. That seem appropriate?
Of course I do see a fair few code-only answers that are VLQ, but not inherently so. Moreso because they're the nth repeat of a very basic answer to a question that's also asked a zillion times
@cigien I don't know if the custom reason is shown to the user if two other users pick a different reason though. So I always leave a comment.
21:36
@Dharman Code only answers are not inherently VLQ and should not be flagged as such. They might be low quality, but they are not VLQ. if the problem with the answer is that it is code-only, then they should be neither flagged as VLQ, nor deleted from the LQP queue. OTOH, users with >20k rep can delete-vote if the answer score is < 0.
@Scratte I think the custom reason appears as a comment, and gets automatically upvoted if others use the same close reason. I could be wrong though.
... and should not be deleted from the LQP reviews! (Unless there's some other condemning feature.)
@MichaelWelch What do you think is wrong with it?
Well, shows no research at all. Something a little more complicated might have a duplicate
@MichaelWelch better to just downvote... not flaggable... :/
21:37
I am not saying they should be flagged as VLQ, but they are.
@cigien You are correct. Custom reasons are automatically placed in a comment. They are not shown to the OP in any other way.
@Yatin hmm, doesn't seem to match guidance I got here yesterday about considering the usefulness of a question
I got suspended for doing a Looks OK on a better question than that.
@MichaelWelch You're trying to apply logic here :)
@Makyen Ah, ok, that's what I thought. Thanks for confirming that.
@Scratte just fine tuning my spider senses :-)
21:40
@TylerH I think you are arguing for the lowest common denominator. If we ask questions that foment long answers that explain the how and why, why should you accept a subpar answer to those kind of preferable* questions?
@MichaelWelch I skip those.. I can't find something that really wrong with it. Well, expect that it's a basic Question, but those are not off-topic. It could do with a little more explanation, but I can understand what they want. So it may be closed as "needs details or clarity" by someone that argues that not all information is in the post or "needs focus" because it's unclear how they're not able to implement the method. I'd disagree strongly with the latter though.
@scratte but surely it's a duplicate at least. But it's so basic it'd probably be hard to find. Hopefully SO has covered subtraction by now so this is NOT a useful question
But.. the title is not very seachable.
@MichaelWelch You're not going to find one. It will be there somewhere with a title that just as unsearchable.
kind of my argument for flagging
@MichaelWelch Which one is your argument?
21:45
no research and probably a duplicate
@MichaelWelch No research is not a close reason. It's a downvote reason. See Dharman's nice message here Try to convince me what makes it unanswerable or not good for the site :)
@Braiam I might downvote such answers, but my point is VLQ is not for "this isn't great value or all that helpful". VLQ is for absolute garbage; posts that couldn't possibly have value.
The flagging description says "This answer has severe formatting or content problems. This answer is unlikely to be salvageable through editing, and might need to be removed."
A code-only answer can easily be 'salvaged' through editing in an explanation of the code.
@TylerH And yet editing it makes the flag helpful.
@Scratte and this one also from Dharman which is my motivation also. Not useful
@TylerH Again, at some point quality has to be enforced. And as I've been saying several times on this chat: other sites has no problem at all removing subpar content. Not wrong answers, but answers that do not deserve to be on the site.
21:48
@MichaelWelch Not useful is your motivation to find something else that wrong with it. Why is it not useful? Lots of users have trouble writing their first methods.
ok, not buying it. This just seems to be a case of inconsistency. But no worries. I'll learn to stay away from some of these
Personally, I'd let that one slide. It's not overly harmful. An edit to the title to something like "How to create a method that takes two integers and return a value?" would help to find it later.
Ok, I think sometimes the site encourages you to just bring the hammer. I see a lot that enforces that attitude. So that's what I've been learning. Not that I don't also up vote and leave useful comments
@Dharman Not saying I agree with how that works now, of course :-)
@MichaelWelch I'm not saying that it shouldn't be closed :) I'm just saying that it helps to process a post like that when you want to find a reason. If you can argue for a reason, you can even comment to what they can do to make it OK in your mind. And you'll find it easy to pick the close reason that's in line with what you think of it :)
@Braiam Personally I agree with you more than with how the VLQ flag is prescribed. I'm just saying that's how the flag is described and used/enforced. Not how it "ought to be".
I pretty much have stopped using VLQ altogether. I don't think there is any valid reason to use them
@MichaelWelch You can't comment saying "Your post is not useful to the site" and expect the author to understand what they can do to make it fine :)
sure but that happens all the time. I saw a not too bad question get closed without triage with a flag of "duplicate of how do I use a debugger". That was one of the closes that re-inforced in me that if you haven't done you research and came prepared, expect to have your question closed.
a moderator just came in and brought the hammer
The poor guy was probably like wait what just happened? I've been programming a week and now I need to learn this debugger thing
When I look at it, the only thing I can find it unsearchable title. You can comment and ask them to "Kindly edit the title of your post to make it searchable", but since they seem very confused, I doubt it would happen. Then flag is a needs details or clarity. As the title doesn't make it clear what the post is about.
21:57
ok, we beat this one to death. Thanks @Scratte
You're welcome :)
@MichaelWelch see this :)
Ok, yeah that's what I thought too @Yatin . I can't see which one was deleted (low rep) but I thought that's quite a high bar for new devs
So I guess that's why I came back to the site today ready to shut every newbie down. :-)
jk
@MichaelWelch I've posted a comment on "your" post (not relating to the title though :-)
You're a good person. nice comment :-)
@Yatin Hard to follow the chat after your question. Did anyone answer you about the debugger?
22:11
@MichaelWelch yeah
22:25
@TylerH Which is why I still do not show compliance with that. I prefer pushing towards what it ought to be.
22:52
@Makyen if you didn't know SO published an interesting video at minute 4:10 there's a really funny mention to "mods trying to script things" :D
@bad_coder Thanks. Interesting talk.
Second (lower) box seems a bit impolite, even a tad harsh: i.sstatic.net/lRGbn.png
23:09
@AdrianMole No, just frustrating.
23:33
@AdrianMole You mean there's no "please"?
No please! No thank-you! Just: Come back in 1 hour.
Ohh.. you're not happy with the "You have no more close votes today"?
I like that it tells you why you can't review.
I'm happy with that part of the message. But it would be the same if I had reviewed 39 CVs. In other queues, I get Thanks™ even for 20 reviews.
But isn't that because you've spent your votes before doing the 40 reviews?
So it can't Thanks™ you for doing X reviews, as you didn't :)
Yes, of course. I spent ~25 in First Posts (for which I get thanked).
But if I do 25 reviews in a "big" queue, then that queue goes down in size, I still get a "Thank you for reviewing 20..." message.
Maybe it should say "Thanks™ you for spending all your close votes today. Come back and spend more in 1 hour."
It's just plain unfriendly and I think I shall report it to SE staff! ;-P
Use the "Contact us" link. Remember to use Thanks™ instead of Thank consistently in your message ;)
No worries - Lisa and I have a mutual understanding. I know she's actually very smart, and she knows that I'm completely insane.
2
23:51
Adrian Mimosas ;-P
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