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01:26
Something weird... looking at the revision history of this post, I see it was voted to re-open by the original poster. It seems odd that that would be allowed?
That is very strange
@Nick It's not that strange, after 1k you can vote on your own questions.
02:29
@Makyen I guess I never read that privilege carefully. It does seem odd though, why would you vote to close your own question (it would seem deleting it makes more sense) and I would have thought it was more important that other users thought your question was worth re-opening. This is even more the case now the number of votes required is only 3.
@Nick There are times when you can't delete your own question, or when it would be disadvantageous to you. So, voting to close would make sense at those times. Voting to reopen is basically a on-time free pass to the reopen queue for users with >250 rep, and, as you note, makes it so only 2 other people have to agree with you to reopen, rather than the 4 which it used to be.
@Makyen yeah, I see what you mean about closing. It does seem it might be worth revisiting the re-open privilege though as you can get a free pass into the re-open queue just by editing the post, and at least that would then require 3 others to agree with you.
 
3 hours later…
05:38
A user just posted their age in a Question.. It's completely irrelevant to their post of course, but it gives information that they are too young to have an account. What to do?
I don't even know if their Question is on topic.. it's not my tag :(
@Makyen Thank you :) I left my comment there, since it's no better or worse than the content of the post.
06:29
Heh.. another thanks-reaction and a "thank you" comment to the list :D
06:44
Am I missing something, or are there at least one tag missing in this "upload" Question?
You are not, but the post is! :)
@Vega Thank you. I read it three times, and I figured either it's an API that I cannot find using Google, or they just forgot to mention it :)
@Scratte The question is missing details, I casted a close vote
07:20
@Scratte The tag in this Question has been edited. Does the tag make it an on-topic? cc:@Vega
My flag was marked helpful because the author deleted it. They've since un-deleted it.
07:54
Is it a little suspicious when a SQL Question gets two upvotes when not providing with required information?
@Scratte Thank you :) It makes the question more clear, but I am not sure if it is focused enough
@Vega Lets hope your vote made it go to the close vote queue then.. and that it stayed there despite it being deleted & undeleted :)
@Scratte I have seen that 'behaviour' on tag tag before
@Vega I'm finding it disturbing :)
I know I'm not supposed to, but when I see someone (especially a high-rep user) begging for an accept, I just want to downvote the post :(
SOCVR rules are keeping me back to comment furthermore :)
08:07
ahhhh I figured out what's causing my migration votes to error out
Samuel's review queue helper userscript breaks voting to migrate a question
(presumably it still works if you're a mod, or Samuel would have noticed)
@RyanM You should mention that in the "Bad Stack Overflow Reviews" room. Probably elaborate on how, so it doesn't get closed as "Needs details or clarity" :)
08:56
Has anybody been moved from group A to group B or vice versa for the thanks feature? I'm not allowed to pray any more, but I can wash my hands.
It is changing quite regularly for me
I ... didn't pay enough attention to notice any differences
Right now it asks me to wash my hands, too
But.. I'm not entire sure how it's A/B testing though, if it keeps changing on users? I mean how would they measure the difference between clicking or not clicking if after one has discovered it due to a change of icon?
Big data ;)
They probably record on each click, which icon was shown
09:00
@janw Right.. sound a solid as "Use jQuery"
@Scratte how will they know which one is better if they don't test both on you? /s
@RyanM They will never know either way. Because if I do not know what the icon does, and I do not click it for a week, but then notice it and start spam-clicking all that I see.. they will think I did it because they changed the icon, right?
Yes
So either way, the longer the testing lasts, the more users will use it. The icon is probably irrelevant
and changing the icon on users makes the test to see which one works best.. contaminated?
@Scratte (/s is the textual sign for sarcasm, for the record) but yes, you're correct. Theoretically, randomness would shake out that confounding factor, but exposing one person to both treatments is almost never correct.
09:04
Yeah, I suspected that they divide the entire userbase into two groups for the entire test
This should yield good results, since there many users, so two random groups should be representative. But I'm not a data scientist
Oh. I had no idea that "/s" meant end of sarcasm. I think my brain just didn't get it and pretended it wasn't there.. or I put in a smile or silly person or something worse :)
But the current approach greatly enhances visibility. It is quite disturbing that the UI changes so frequently
@janw I've spent many hours making my own CSS changes when I do not agree with something new.
I had to stop reviewing when the put those big orange buttons there. It wasn't until I changed them back to tab-looking buttons, that I had the inclination to review again.
@Scratte Citations: Urban Dictionary, Linguaholic (search "sarcasm"), Wikipedia
I've seen people confuse Java with JavaScript, C with C++, and Java with Kotlin...but today marks the first time I've had to retag a question because someone confused Firebase with Firefox.
@RyanM Thanks. I tend not to give it away though. It takes the fun out :)
09:16
@Scratte I usually only tag it when it's not reasonable to deduce from the text that I'm being sarcastic
maybe I should have just added ?!?! instead
@RyanM I suppose it depends on what you want to happen. I obviously let it know that I thought you were serious, so in that sense you prodded me and I failed the test :)
@Scratte the policy is that I don't know why anyone would bother, but if the OP posted it on SO, then it's still subject to the license, so transcribing it is totally fine as long as it's from content posted on SO.
I have no citation for this, though.
@RyanM I think we're having two separate conversations now.. what post are you referring to? (I assume this is unrelated to the /s)
@Scratte (FYI you can click the reply arrow to jump to the post I replied to) Your question about the policy on transcribing images
@RyanM Oh.. "never mind" was due to "Don't: Transcribe code from an image to text. It's just too easy to introduce new errors." from When should I make edits to code?
When I moved my mouse over the message, chat but a box around your previous message. It didn't highlight it in gray though, but it threw me off the track. I'll be more observant of this weird feature now :) Please forgive my edits.. I need sleep or something.
09:32
@Scratte hmmm...good point.
I guess I should be rejecting those.
I am a little disturbed by this "Fix typos (misspelled function calls, variable names, etc.), unless they are relevant to the question"
that could probably be amended to say to fix such typos in answers
never fix typos in question code
well, unless the question is answered and confirmed
then maybe.
@RyanM This is a bullet point under the Questions headline..
@Scratte My take on code-edits is: don't make any, except adding code-fences, and perhaps fixing indentation in languages where indentation is irrelevant to the syntax, but visually helpful for the reader.
I submit as an example of a good edit fixing typos in question code: stackoverflow.com/posts/34761523/revisions
09:37
There's a small exception which I make for MATLAB code, where clc; clear all; close all is often added to the top of scripts, to clear the entire workspace of variables, figures etc. Irrelevant to the question (almost always at least), and wiping the workspace of an unsuspecting SO user isn't very nice IMO
@Adriaan Yes. Mine too.. both of the last two bullet points are disturbing to me :(
@RyanM But you forgot to capitalize the "i" pronoun. Shameful. ;)
@Scratte Agreed.
@RyanM It does go against a "Don't" from the meta post: Change code conventions
@Scratte normally I'd agree, but polishing/simplifying a block of code without changing the meaning of the question is OK if it becomes a better, more generic dupe target in the process.
09:42
So...the person who added those lines to that guidance (revision 8) is in this room...so you could ask them about why they wanted them included
Yes, in this case it made it better :) Removed unused code also made it better..
My 2 cents: I preferred the previous phrasing, and I think it accomplishes its goal better.
@RyanM That's obvious.. Python is so great in forcing people to indent code :)
@Scratte Are you looking at revision 8 or 13? :-p
@RyanM Revisions 3 and 6 are more relevant; 8 just reiterates 6, which was rolled back in 7
09:44
@RyanM 13.. silly me. I looked to the one you linked ;)
!!/coffee Scratte
@RyanM brews a cup of Mocha for @Scratte
@Adriaan true, but 6 and 7 are by the same author, so the original author thought better of the change, thus making the author of revision 8 the person who decided that should be the guidance. And I agree with the phrasing added in 3.
@Scratte Sadly, you cannot link the diffs of specific revisions, only the end result, making it fair ineffective for linking to what changed
I am also more in favour of 3: "Don't (unless ...)" rather than "Please do unless".
@Braiam Please explain why you edited to revision 8 in When should I make edits to code?. There seems to be a few of us not comfortable with this guidance.
Personally I also prefer them under "Don't" -unless.. instead of under "Do" -unless.. like Adriaan mentioned.
09:54
@VadimKotov Isn't it spam?
@Scratte That whole thing is a mess, they should absolutely be under don't, BSMP appears to have just made a mistake and fixed it, it looks like Braiam simply didn't notice what happened (soz for double ping)
@sideshowbarker There is pending edit. I reviewed
@Vega oops, looks like it is
@Vega OK — thanks
Nick: I am sorry for having pinged you earlier when replying to Nick.. I cannot help it. I replied to a particular message. I think I am soon to create a meta post for you two to work it out :D
09:58
Oh relax, I was kidding :)
@TheOtherNick I could also just do it like this.. which would always work :D
One of you should change your name to @Niсk so that the other one always gets pinged when anyone tries to type it manually.
@sideshowbarker I rejected, but it has one approval, you might want to review, too?
OK
@Vega done now — thanks for the heads-up
@RyanM (I didn't even use any zero-width characters this time)
It is official, I have now found the worst possible way to include code in a question.
13
10:11
@RyanM Remember, someone thought that was easier than copy-paste.
@RyanM Snif.. there's no sound :( Please don't say you actually found this in a Question here..
Would it be better if he found it here on SO, or if he got it in an email from a colleague?
@RyanM but .. but ... what if I have multiple pages of code? Come on! There is a valid use case for that format somewhere ...
I've seen a lot of youtube video when trying to learn new stuff. I tend to lose my patience on those types though. I also find it irritating when they play music on them, or sounds from traffic, chickens, dogs, keyboard clicks, coughs or similar keeps creeping in.
@CodyGray well, the latter would be worse for me, since I'm required to work with my colleagues...but no, I'm afraid for @Scratte that I did, in fact, find it on a Stack Overflow question. I duly informed the OP that "[p]osts in which essential text is only present in images (or worse, videos) are likely to be closed as lacking enough details"
Sure enough, it was closed shortly thereafter.
10:18
I'm glad to hear that your crystal ball is still in pristine, working order.
@rene This is my new favorite bug report. "Can you please take the appropriate action?" is a literary masterpiece.
@RyanM send in the troops?
@Adriaan where am I sending which troops?
@AdrianMole Re: our discussion a few days ago, I pinged Ham and he updated the help centre page on code syntax highlighting (previously only the editing help was fixed) (cc @Makyen @Braiam)
10:23
The snark brigade is permanently deployed to Meta.
And an army of Armadillidiidae has been forward-deployed upon my place of residence.
That word does not mean anything close to what I expected it to.
You thought a "brigade" was a garden of blurry flowers?
...well, that's an accurate description of the snark brigade, is it not?
See, that's why I thought you might have been expecting something different
@Nick They kept <!-- language-all:, but not the ability to specify a language for an upcoming code block. really arg.
Thanks for telling me. (not sarcasm)
10:28
@Makyen I'm having trouble parsing this sentence...
Are you complaining that the HTML hints for an upcoming code block were removed?
Yeah, I saw that, what confuses me is you can still use <!-- language-all: lang-none --> to specify no language for a single block, but not to specify an actual language?
The language-all hint specifies no language for the entire post.
@CodyGray Yes, it is something I'm frustrated about, because it makes more work for editors. It's something that has to be remembered forever, as it will break when old posts are edited. It's also something that's really easy to not notice that it broke while editing, so is likely to not be fixed when an old post is edited.
@Makyen Yeah, I'm annoyed about that, too. I just wasn't sure that was what you were referring to.
@CodyGray That is not what it implies: "To specify that you don't want any syntax highlighting for a code block"
10:31
I'm really not clear on why they decided to remove it. It doesn't violate the CommonMark spec.
@Nick Ah, well, then the Help Center's wording is wrong...
That's what the -all part means.
Yeah, makes sense
@CodyGray I don't know, or at least I haven't seen a reason I felt justified it well enough for me to remember it.
So.. the only thing that's needed to fix this.. is another conversion?
@Makyen Oh, I can so relate to this.
sobs in X-Y problem (this is an X-Y problem because the real question they want to answer is whether the network is metered...and none of the answers say that. time to write a new one...once I've slept)
10:43
How do you know that the connection being metered is really what they care about?
Almost everyone gets network and file access wrong. They try to check first, which is foolish, because you can never avoid the race condition. Just try to do whatever it is you want to do, and handle the failure gracefully.
"I don't want my user to even try downloading something unless they have Wi-Fi connected." I cannot understand any other reason why anyone would want to do this.
Uh, they don't want it to fail.
@CodyGray I see you also are a python user
:p
No, they specifically note that they don't want to attempt a download over 3G (it was 2010)
@Nick Hmm?
10:46
Python is well known for it's "EAFP Principle"
I have never heard a use case for "I want a Wi-Fi connection but not a cell connection" other than "I want to avoid unnecessarily depleting the user's data plan/battery"
if you're transferring so much data that you care about the battery, you should probably wait for the device to be charging and on an unmetered connection. Otherwise, we're back to just "I want an unmetered connection"
@Nick Ah, well.... That's not always smart. You have to make the right decision when it comes to performance. (But it works for Python, since they've already made the wrong decision when it comes to performance.)
I seriously doubt, for instance, that these people are trying to avoid transferring this data over ethernet.
@RyanM Internal corporate network? Speed? There are probably a half dozen reasons. We just aren't creative enough.
Do Android phones support Ethernet?
(Plot twist: Wi-Fi and Ethernet connections can be metered!)
^ Yep!, Windows even has settings for metered connections (although Windows can also use cellular data probably...)
10:50
@RyanM Psst.. no time to sleep. Only 9 hours to go to prove your meta presence.
@CodyGray Both X-Y problems. Respectively: 1) Then you need to check for a particular network, not any network, 2) Then you should check speed (there's an API for that, too!)
@RyanM Oh, I'm sure they are X-Y problems. I'm not questioning that. Almost everything I see these days is an X-Y problem. What I'm questioning is whether you've correctly diagnosed the "X".
@CodyGray They do! You can plug it in via a USB adapter. But also Android runs on far more than phones. Chromebooks, for instance, may simply have an Ethernet port.
Oh yeah, that's right.
I saw a Chromebook just today. I should have remembered. I guess you put useless nonsense like that out of your mind.
@RyanM I thought chromebooks ran another flavour of Linux, not android, hence why it's called Chrome OS... and not Android
10:54
Yeah, Google develops operating systems just to keep people busy
@CodyGray Android supports setting this as well. I've gotten some documentation changed that used to suggest checking for Wi-Fi for partly this reason. It's why it's far more important to check for metered networks in 99.9% of use-cases for this.
@RyanM Plot twist: nobody reads the documentation!
@Nick Chromebook runs the Android framework within its Linux environment, so while it's not running Android, it is running Android apps.
Ahhh IC
@CodyGray I thought that was what all the chat apps were for.
10:57
@RyanM Optionally, right?
"nobody reads the documentation" Oh, I know. My second-most-upvoted answer was simply opening the documentation, reading the answer, and typing it out nicely.
@CodyGray Yeah, not all Chromebooks support it...I think all newer ones do, but I'm not positive.
@RyanM You do realize that you just proved that someone does, in fact, read the documentation, right?
Also fun fact: there are apps that implement metered network checking correctly, but still describe it as "Wi-Fi" in the UI, presumably for users' sake.
@RyanM Ugh
I have multiple times been in a situation where I had a metered Wi-Fi connection but an unmetered cellular connection.
I have never had that happen, but I do have the problem that my phone is (usually) set up with dual SIMs, so 99% of the time, my cell connection is unmetered... except when it's not.
So normally I just let apps use cell data to their heart's content, because I don't care...until I do. I wish I could label the cell connection as "unmetered," but I'm sure Verizon wouldn't like that.
11:03
When I was in college, the university Wi-Fi network was metered. Students only got a certain number of GB allocated to them per week. Meanwhile, I had an unlimited cellular data plan.
In those days, there was practically no way for me to convince my phone to prefer cellular over Wi-Fi (I always wanted it to do that, because I wanted to preserve as much as possible of the Wi-Fi data allocation for my notebook), so I had to just end up turning off Wi-Fi altogether, which was a real pain in the nose for other reasons.
@CodyGray ah...yeah, that use-case is very poorly supported still, I think.
@RyanM Probably. Everyone thinks inside the box.
I still sometimes have similar problems with iPhone. Because I store Wi-Fi credentials in iCloud, so that they'll be available to both my phone and my notebook, the phone tends to like to connect to Wi-Fi networks that are either slower, rate-limited, or somehow inferior than my cellular connection. I need the credentials and I want the connection to be made on my notebook, which doesn't do cellular, but I want the phone to prefer cellular.
11:21
^ I don't understand why I do not see this in the close vote queue in the timeline.
@Scratte I do. This is the close vote review. It was enqueued on Jun 29 at 11:21.
That's in the public timeline, too.
Yeah, it only just got invalidated
So the answer is: it takes several minutes to invalidate the review task after the question is closed
I wonder what we should blame. Anyone know?
@CodyGray Developers?
11:37
@CodyGray Apparently some sensitive info, and should be deleted immediatly stackoverflow.com/questions/62751225/…
@bad_coder Please review rule 18, and raise a moderator flag.
@bad_coder That doesn't need immediate deletion, sensitive info can just be edited out and mod-flagged for a redaction if really necessary
@CodyGray Ah. It wasn't there when I checked after it was closed. I must have been too quick. I was also wrongly under the impression that it would only been in the queue for 4 days.
@Scratte Why would you assume it's only been there for 4 days?
11:42
@CodyGray Most of my pending flags have been on post that were invalidated in the close vote queue after 4 days.
I think 4 days is too short of a period for a close vote review task to be invalidated.
@CodyGray I can find evidence, if you want some :)
@CodyGray stackoverflow.com/posts/62689366/timeline here's an example of a CV review task invalidated after 4 days. The vote is still live, but the task has been invalidated for failure to pick up more votes.
I see that some times it takes a longer time.. like on this post. I should probably find the rules for this.
11:49
@Scratte They aged away. CVs and Reopen votes both only last 14 days
It helps us avoid the 100k Close Queue permanent nightmare we used to have
@Machavity Yes, but some times my pending flags are on posts that have left the close vote queue after 4 days. Then my flag just sits there like a a decoration waiting for.. nothing until it ages away
Flags for... closure?
Yes :)
I'll find one.. but I have to paint something first :)
Oh, you don't have 3k. Thought you did for some reason
@Nick Thanks won't get that wrong again.
@RyanM good informative post.
11:58
I think I posted that in here, but no one voted on it, so the time in the queue did not extend past the initial value.
@Machavity No, I'm sorry. I'm currently reluctant to build reputation..
@Scratte To each his own. In case you haven't noticed, I don't answer too many questions myself
@Machavity You seem to spend your efforts on questioning answers.
Does this Q look on-topic? I wanna say it's Customer Service
@AdrianMole Do I? :P
... Or questioning questions.
@Machavity smells of CS indeed, although the answer seems to suggest otherwise
12:08
@Machavity I would say off-topic but the exact reason is hard to specify. General S/W?
folks, can we please add to room FAQ advice for those who have their "20k+" request hanging for over 2 days so that question they referred becomes eligible for 10k delete voting. Do they let it go, or re-submit without 20k+ tag or something else
@Adriaan Much/most of it seems to be here.
Even the images are copied.
12:32
@gnat I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Can you elaborate?
12:49
@Machavity I believe, gnat is asking if the room rules could allow to repost del-pls requests on the posts that already had del-pls for +20K, but are not deleted after two days, making them eligible for 10K user to cast a vote
^ Or even if the request could be automagically modified and/or reposted?
^ Should stuff like that be edited (rollback) or flagged as R/A? Or both?
Don't flag R/A. It's vandalism and should be reverted. I mod flagged one so that should get him a cooldown ban
Seems like something of a rampage.
Zoe
Zoe
They've started commenting
@Machavity say, I made 20k+ del-pls request. Say, I notice that it's still there after 2 days so that question I referred could now be handled without 20k+ tag. What do I do now, do I re-submit same del-pls without 20k tag, or do I let it go, or something else
13:06
@gnat I've asked the other ROs to weigh in. We'll let you know. It probably does need some clarification
13:40
Say one questions asks how to strip a trailing dot from a variable?, but there is also an older one that asks how to strip a trailing slash from variable?, should I propose the older one as dupe and cast a close vote?
@oguzismail Change the other to "how to remove trailing characters from variable".
@Braiam Done, thanks.
13:54
If only it was easier to move the accepted answer to the duplicate target. So that there would be no problem deleting the duplicate.
@Scratte If you see, I just rolled it back to a previous version edited by BSMD
And just like that, reactions is my second highest scored tag
14:19
@Braiam I see. I guess I'll have to make an edit then.. unless you have feelings about it
14:34
@Scratte Of course I have feelings about it, that's why I rolled it back.
That's the best policy to have in place to make the best post possible.
No more kyll?
14:49
@Adriaan There might have been accident in the game of "throw the spearall"..
It only cost Jon a leg
@JonClements typical. Go fetch sighs
@Machavity Oh - I think that was while playing "catch the shuriken" with the other ninja...
Yeah, Martjin can throw a bit hard...
@Braiam Oh. Well.. what do you suggest then? A separate meta post? We were a few users agreeing that we're not very happy about it.
@Braiam I don't agree with you. I don't think it's best to have users go and edit code in question just because they think is doesn't have any bearing on the question and then say: But it says so in this post that it's fine.
I'd rather have them only ever edit code when it's absolutely obvious that is has no bearing.
15:08
@Scratte "unless they are relevant to the question" was there to address those concerns.
Having questions with typos/piece of code not relevant to the question asked isn't a effective path forward.
@Braiam problem is: no-one reads that. Putting it in a "Don't unless" sentence makes much more sense than a "Do unless" sentence, because we'd rather have no edit, than an edit which inadvertently fixes the typo. Err on the side of caution is my stance here.
@Adriaan If no one reads that, then what's the problem? The post is effectively no-op.
I trust that those that take the time reading guidance are cut above the average user.
15:34
@Braiam If that's the only issue then the edit you rolled back had a similar one in the "Don't"
@Braiam It's not about hoping for sanity by the user. It's about having a blacklist instead of a whitelist. With few options to reference the post to excuse a bad edit.
The post is on the FAQ index, so it's policy.
@Scratte I prefer being "you do unless" rather than "you don't unless"
@Scratte Again, I expect users that reference that apply better judgement.
Any idea how to salvage this? stackoverflow.com/q/62756835/1839439
I understand. But since we probably will not work it out here and it's also probably a bad idea to decide on policy in this room, we should probably pick another battleground :)
@Dharman I think it could be resumed to 'How to scale an imported model?'
What do we do about the answers?
15:49
@Scratte It was edited in '17. If it was causing problems, I assure you someone would have changed it already.
The self-answer is a comment in my opinion
@Dharman Done.
The question could be a candidate for a typo/no repro?
@Braiam 'much appreciated:)'? (I mean you left it ;))
Now, how we deal with the rehashing answer? Downvote once and get 20kers to delete it?
@Braiam Good job, thanks
16:05
@Braiam I was about to changed it because it caused me trouble. But you stopped me. So I'm not sure your argument is valid.
17:02
@Scratte How, examples?
17:15
Charcoal is trying to diagnose a problem, in case anyone is wondering. That report was not spam. The remaining one above definitely is
17:36
@Braiam Not by examples. Caused me concern is probably a better word. But I've seem code edits, some of those posted here, that I didn't like. I'd prefer to link to a post that has a do not. I don't really want to have to explain why it's in a do :)
@Scratte That's kind of vague. You aren't able to show the relationship between that post and the things that cause you concern. I particularly don't care when people edit my posts to improve them. If you do, then that may be why our differences arise.
@Braiam You could turn it around to why make the edit if there was no issues prior to that :) I think we just don't agree here, and we'll need some other form of mediation.
But you are right. I would be very upset if anyone were to edit my code. In all honesty that would be very much against my intent and it would turn me off Stack to a very high degree, especially it I posted it in the Question and needed help
Nothing is ever perfect, so there's always room for improvement ;)
@Scratte If I were you, I would work on that. This site is based upon the principle that anyone can edit anyones posts.
It's so extreme that we would even override OP when they deliberately make it worse.
@Braiam No.. they can edit phrasing and structure. Not code.
This is always the struggle. You cannot edit code against authors intent.
Once you submit answer, it is no longer yours. Community is free to improve it in any reasonable way it want instead of endlessly duplicating information in new answer just to stroke your overblown ego. — Oleg V. Volkov Apr 21 '17 at 9:28
I would read that comment in context, but was a case where the community added content to an answer that the OP didn't want, and we made it pretty clear that we wanted that answer being as good as possible.
17:48
So what is the fuss about the author's intent then?
That's yet another extreme, but be aware that previous cases exist.
@Scratte something SO invented, like Unicorns on a rainbow when you are asking questions about Haskell
@Braiam I don't understand. You seem to be arguing that there is no authors intent.
Ok. So now we've reached the point where you're saying that author's intent is not valid.
@Scratte The intent of the author is always presumed to be "answering the question" when it doesn't do that, we remove it. When it does that poorly, we may choose to improve it.
@Braiam Do you have a meta post that says that there is no "author's intent"?
If you apply SO logic, you would find many inconsistencies and absurdities. If you want sane SE policies applied, look at other sites.
17:51
I don't go to other sites. I don't have time to engage in other sites.
Sadly, SO is the poster child of showing how not being collaborative by default becomes problematic when all tools foment that kind of behavior.
"always respect the original author". I'd say if someone edits my code, that is not very respectful. I test it before I post it.. if someone doesn't like that I use j in a loop instead of i then it's on that other person.
@Scratte "Crucially, there's nothing about intent there" the next sentence after that ;)
Leaving a poor post when you can improve it isn't showing respect to the author. You are allowing them to look inadvertently bad.
The last time someone edited my post, they went against my intent.. so this is a little funny. I commented to the fact, and they ignored me. It wasn't my code though.
I recommend reading that post and digesting it for a while.
17:59
I'll start with the accepted answer.. It's the one that most users agree with. Intent is all over that.
I see that one person says that editing is communicating. I'm not sure that how it's perceived. I see it more like an order. And if I do not agree and roll it back I started a war. It's kind of strange.
@Scratte I would remember you that "acceptance" is only what the OP felt like it helped the best. If you read the comments, Shog basically admonish the behavior of Cerbus and how ridiculous it looks from an outsider perspective (OP and the editor reached an understanding, then Cerbus came and made a mess of that understanding).
I was looking at the votes. Not the individual case.
I would invite you to put that in perspective. Also a line from the editing help:
> Editing is important for keeping questions and answers clear, relevant, and up-to-date. If you are not comfortable with the idea of your contributions being collaboratively edited by other trusted users, this may not be the site for you.
@Scratte I would repeat myself: SO is the poster child of showing how not being collaborative by default becomes problematic when all tools foment that kind of behavior.
How does that change that when someone posts code, that others don't change it? It's very different from changing phrasing and grammar and misunderstandings. I have no issues with that.
The site is designed for that behavior by default. SO is waging a battle against what the system is designed to do.
@Scratte Simple, if you don't want changes done to your code, don't post code on SO.
That's the default. After that we then put restrictions: respect the author, don't make it worse and try to make it better, etc.
But at is core, SO is a collaboration site, where we can improve each other content.
18:08
@Braiam I don't think everybody agrees with you. I'm also not entirely sure if me quitting Stack Overflow now is the best outcome. But you seem to be trying to push for that.
Improve is sometimes subjective. Changing someone's code style may be an improve for those that like the change, but not for those that don't like it. So it's not really an improvement, it's a: This is the way your code will look from now on. Accept it or go.
26 mins ago, by Braiam
@Scratte If I were you, I would work on that. This site is based upon the principle that anyone can edit anyones posts.
Not sure how you can interpret it that way. If I was trying to push you out, I would very aggressively tell you to GTFO, but I don't feel that that has been my behavior.
We have different opinion on what is respectful too then.
@Scratte Also, it's not rare that I disagree with SO. As I said several times: SO is ridiculous.
Users on other sites tend to avoid SO precisely because of that.
It's very draconian on things that make no sense and they've figured out since the start.
Most of the sentiment is "what the heck went wrong with SO?!"
I'm sure you could read Cajita conversation about NAA's too. There are so many things on SO that aren't working precisely because SO actions that prevent them to work as they should.
I'm sorry, but I interpret the "like it or leave" as draconian.
Well, remember that you are invited here by SE. Tomorrow SE decides something you aren't happy about, you are free to leave.
i know that, I've disagreed with SE. I'm not leaving because I still believe I change SE.
18:17
An optimist!
The NAA conversation is not the same topic. It's a lot easier to know that the sky is blue isn't an answer to what colour is a Panda, than to understand if an code Answer answers a code Question.
@Braiam I like your phrasing.. "free to leave", not "free to stay". I'm still wondering if you're trying to make me leave.
I wouldn't let anyone make decisions for me @Scratte . You're smart enough to make your own judgement calls and come to a different conclusion then @Braiam did. There is nothing wrong with following your own gut. As long as @Braiam is following his.
But in all honesty, I'm not sure it will go well if I go off and edit code, just because I don't like the way it looks. I think I could probably get away with it on low-rep users, but I'm pretty sure I'd be getting myself in trouble very fast if I made that a habit on user that knows meta and where the moderator flag is located :)
Maybe I should proof-read first before I post ...
@rene Yes.. but we are discussing an edit on a FAQ-indexed post. So.. just doing what we feel like is not a good option :)
18:24
It's OK. If Meta kills you off, we'll send rene flowers
@Scratte sure it is. You can't align all stars in the universe.
I have no fear of being wrong on meta. If I post this and no one agrees with me, then I'll accept it, no issues. What I'm not very comfortable with is one individual making policy.
someone has to start
@rene You still have typos.
@Dharman yes, I'm not very good at this.
18:26
What policy are we making up now?
But I also have no issues with pulling the plug on my activities :) The world is very big and there are lots of battles, that I don't need to get involved with :D
@Dharman Meh. Both seem to be answer-ish. Both are trying to answer the question. Hard to tell, since the OP also made both
I'd leave it
@Dharman It started here, then this looking at revision 8.. and it set off from there.
@Dharman No :)
@Scratte It looks good to me, although slightly vague. I guess it's difficult to make this guideline clearer considering the variety of technologies we deal with
18:35
@Dharman Did you reply to the right message?
I didn't reply to any message. I pinged you.
I assume you have a problem with editors changing code in the question
As long as you can make the MCVE better and still keep the original meaning, you should be fine.
I often change or rewrite the code in question
I do it only for the questions where I am the SME and I know what I can remove or change in the question to make the code clearer
18:49
@Scratte I'm just telling you what SE has been very unapologetically telling users since the start. The editing page has that wording since the start ("this may not be the site for you") and I remember at least two CM telling off SO that their policy doesn't align with SE principles.
You may use the contact us link to ask what it is that they mean with the editing page and what is "respecting" the author means.
@Dharman Ha, baby steps. Have you ever changed the meaning of the question? :D
@Braiam No. That is something I am against. You should never change the meaning of the question. You can change tags, title, body and code, but you can never change the meaning
Sometimes changing a single word distorts the meaning, but other times you can rewrite the whole thing and still keep the meaning.
@Dharman Never say never ;)
I'm trying to hunt down a question where Security.SE changed a question from "How is X possible" to "How is X not possible" or something like that.
@Braiam You can call me out whenever I do. I will be happy to discuss and roll it back if necessary
18:55
Only Siths deal in absolutes :D
Well, this isn't that example, but there is a good analogy in the answer security.meta.stackexchange.com/q/1828/27973
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