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6:07 PM
Doesn't this need focus? Attracted a lot of links stackoverflow.com/q/42269075/5468463
^^ I don't know how 1 rep user answered the protected question
 
@E_net4feelstargeted This only shows that there is something seriously wrong with how many people see downvoting. So many people claiming that we don't need them or that they are hurtful.
 
@Vega Speculation: they had more rep, then got spamhammered and lost 100 rep (not sure if 10k+ can check this; I certainly can't)
 
@RyanM Wouldn't that show on their profile?
 
@Scratte Nope, deleted posts don't show, plus rep loss from "extrinsic" means like spam hammer or suspension doesn't show either
 
6:15 PM
Oh. That will make me suspicious of every 1 repper now :D
@Vega I think it's useful, considering the 139K views. Not sure how it could have avoided attracting all those links, since it appears the answer is "No, but.. "
 
@Vega As for whether it needs focus...I don't think so, it seems like a specific question with a correct, highly upvoted answer. Although if I were a 10k user I would probably delete-vote a number of those answers.
on the other hand, people have found at least some of them useful...
Is this the sort of thing where a custom mod flag of "hey this is kind of a mess do you want to maybe delete half of this?" would be appropriate? I've never sent a flag like that.
 
@Vega That question seems to have become: does postman supports websockets?
The top answer gives a direct answer to that and tells you what it does support, the later ones just are rambling about unrelated things.
 
@Braiam I'm not sure ramblings are the right word. It's only natural to give alternative solutions when the answer is "no".
 
@Scratte When the absolute answer is "no" any alternative is unrelated.
I'm not asking "what else can I use if I can't use this?"
If that was my question, providing alternatives is ok because I'm asking for them.
 
So.. and answer that just contains this one word "No" would be fine? :)
 
6:23 PM
Yep.
And then you can close all questions as duplicate of that one.
 
I don't agree. I think that would have deleted as NAA very fast
 
Then SO has bigger problems. It's an attempt to answer a question.
 
An attempt is not the same as fine. Offering alternative solution when the answer is no, is much better than fine, in my opinion. Then it's a proper answer.
 
@Scratte A proper answer is one that answers the question, as said in the help page: Read the question carefully. What, specifically, is the question asking for?
 
@Braiam but then your question would be closed because it's a tool request
 
6:29 PM
I reacted because you seem to think that any answer there that doesn't strictly keep to just answering the question should be removed. Even the accepted answer doesn't do that. None of those answers are solely the word "No".
 
I concur with Scratte, these all answer the question, it's just ...a mess.
I sent the following custom mod flag: "This question, which is a good question with a correct, highly upvoted answer, has attracted a large pile of opinion-based "recommend your/your favorite tool"-type answers. It could probably use some cleanup of many of the answers to stop it from turning into a tool recommendation question for websocket testing tools."
at this rate I'm gonna have a significant chunk of the pending custom mod flag queue...currently at 8
 
We do need another 20 moderators..
 
at least they're all from the past month now :D
 
@RyanM Problematic questions tend to attract problematic answers ;)
 
@Braiam The much larger moderators' toolbox is useful in such situations: the solution may be to lock the question and note that if Postman ever adds support they can flag a moderator to unlock it.
Or maybe they'll close it, dunno.
 
6:39 PM
It's actually funny that even after github implemented the reactions, this issue still gets +1, and the like
 
@Vega The answer from the 1-repper was posted on Jan 18 2019; the question was protected on 22 Feb 2019.
 
@Braiam Ha, the spammer from the SO question posted there too
 
@RyanM Well, he's talking to his potential clients.
If you believe someone is disatisfied with a product, the most effective method to offer them the alternative is where they air their grievances.
 
@AdrianMole I can't see deleted answers, but I think that's not the right 1-repper...the one in question was spam-killed and the user was destroyed
 
More than 1 1 repper - I'm confused.
 
6:43 PM
@AdrianMole This was the user (it's not user targeting because they're not a user anymore)
 
I just figured that was probably the case. I can see a spam answer from a now-nuked user.
 
just need 2733 more rep...
 
@RyanM Delete-voting answers is a 20k rep privilege and requires the answer to be at score < 0. None of the non-deleted answers on that question currently qualify, nor could be made to qualify by someone wanting to delete-vote.
 
@Makyen right...I knew that, too, I'm clearly not awake yet. Thanks for the reminder ^^;
 
6:46 PM
np
 
@RyanM off by 110?
 
@Scratte please see "not awake yet" above >_<
I saw that edit though ;-P something about Muphry's law
 
Heh.. yup. Corrected for the 10 :$
 
 
1 hour later…
8:09 PM
Can someone >10K tell me if there are any answers on this sql-server question and what the score of it is?
 
@Scratte yep, score 0
 
1 answer, 0 score
 
@rene No answers?
 
1 answer zero score, Q deleted by OP
 
Hmm.. is there a policy about creating identical questions after deleting one?
 
8:13 PM
@Scratte It's not nice and frowned upon, but what can you do?
 
@Scratte You can generally mod flag them if they are substantially similar
 
What will the mods do? What do you ask mods to do?
 
But it has to be obvious they are the same. Don't expect a mod to know anything about the subject
 
@Machavity I can't see deleted Questions. I can only go on memory
 
I should caveat that this is for closed and deleted questions. If the poster just up and deletes to ask the same thing there's nothing to be done
 
8:15 PM
If they are posted by two different accounts then you can ask mods to delete one account
 
If the user deleted to escape downvotes, they're probably going to regret doing so
 
Since the post is on topic and it's not a duplicate (deleted posts doesn't counted) then there is nothing to do
 
@Scratte yes. It bypasses the quality controls of the site - if a question reaches, say -5 and is reposted as is, that not really nice. There is some grey area if it's substantially altered namely in what constitutes "substantially altered". Still, reposting is usually seen as bad. Oh, and it's rare that it's really reposted and improved, much rarer to even constitute "substantially"
 
Ok. I think I should probably appeal to them to not do this.
 
People do it to bump the question. I think this will still get them question banned quickly and usually works against them actually getting an answer.
 
8:19 PM
Also worth noting that if the question is bad anyway, it's likely to attract downvotes even when reposted. The user might get a question ban if they keep reposting the same bad question.
 
That's why I wanted to know it there was an answer on the other one. I still find it odd to remove it when there is one.
 
The question ban is quite real, and it will catch up to them. Give them the link I posted above so they know that there's a consequence
 
@VLAZ But the score was zero. That's not a bad score.. it's just neutral
 
@Scratte As far as I'm aware, self-deleted questions also hurt your good standing for the question ban algorithm. From a site moderation standpoint, the question be at zero score but it might have a close vote or two against it. Re-posting gets rid of CVs and flags.
 
That's what I don't get. It's not a bad Question. It's not been closed. (If I recall correctly)
 
8:24 PM
It also bumps it to the front of the tag/the front page ... "oh, no one saw my question, let me delete and re-post it to bump it"
(I don't know if that's what happened here)
 
An edit will do that too.
 
Not the tag, at least. Not if sorting by Newest
(they also may not know that editing bumps it - I see lots of people try to bump by commenting, which does nothing)
 
@Dharman Aye, I had to stop reading the comments at some point.
 
I don't know the question, perhaps it was OK. Perhaps it didn't have downvotes. Perhaps it didn't have any CVs/flags either. It's still not an argument for deleting and reposting. That's a lot of conditionals stacked already and only at best make the reposting neutral. There are other arguments against it, though - it's possible that somebody was drafting an answer already.
Deleting the question hurts both the asker and the answerer here but preventing the post. The answerer might not see the reposted question or might not want to engage with it repeatedly. So, there are a lot of downsides, even if the question wasn't bad.
 
@VLAZ It's been stated that deleting a question after it has been answered is the worst thing you can do wrt. the metric for question bans. Such a deletion is considered aggressively hostile.
 
8:32 PM
I left the link Machavity gave on the new Question. But.. it's not likely to get any answers with a comment appealing for them to not delete their Question. So, in a sense it's kind of unfriendly.
 
8:42 PM
@M-- A post you moderated is being discussed on meta
 
9:06 PM
@Scratte I don't think I would have had the guts to del-vote that questions, precisely for that reason. When someone loses 95 reputation of course they are going to come knocking. Although I agree that it's clearly a duplicate and is a valid target for deletion.
 
@IanCampbell Not of course. Some would think that they should have looked for duplicates instead :)
What the threshold for high reputation user? I mean I consider 100K as such. What about 10K? Or 5K?
 
@Scratte I consider you quite a high reputation user
 
@Dharman I'm not sure if you're joking :) I can't even vote to close stuff..
 
@Scratte 20k is "trusted user", but it is completely down to perception, I think.
1-rep users are in awe of 2k users.
 
@halfer Yes, but to them there's probably no difference between 2K and 2M :D
 
9:18 PM
@Scratte My NAA bot considers anyone above 2000 rep to be high rep user. Natty considers anyone >1002 rep to be high rep user.
You need to be a little bit more specific what you mean
 
@Dharman Yes, sorry. I noticed this comment on your post by Jean-François Fabre. Which made me wonder about the term.
And then I couldn't figure out what I even think the line between low, medium (if there even is a medium), high is. So I got curious if there was any general idea about what is meant by high reputation.
 
It was an abstract name used to describe annoyed users for reasons other than their question not getting answered.
 
@Scratte I interpret it in that comment as a synonym/proxy for "experienced"
 
@RyanM Ah, yes. I could be one in 5 years while still being <2K.
But I suppose there is no hard limit or border then. It's all just relative.. making me high rep when I talk to Natty, but not to NAA bot :)
 
Possibly as a proxy for "experienced users with moderation privileges" in particular, though it probably annoys low-rep experienced users...
 
M--
9:28 PM
@Scratte Thanks for the link. @Dharman Well answered, I have nothing to add.
 
Many of whom get sufficiently annoyed to increase their rep to fix this stuff :-p
 
@RyanM Well.. that's a little more fixed then, since the privilege to delete is based on reputation.
 
10:00 PM
Can moderators delete any posts they like or are there some official guidelines?
 
@Dharman They apply the same guidelines we do.
 
But they are not checked by 2 other users
 
If as a user you would have voted to delete a post, moderators are expected to do the same, just that they only require 1 vote.
 
If I want to delete something it has to be closed and I have to find two other people to agree
 
@Dharman Unless you are a gold badge owner of one of the tags on the question.
 
10:05 PM
Still, I need two people to delete
 
@Dharman If you are asking from a technical perspective, then my understanding is that they have the ability to delete any post. That doesn't mean they would do so.
 
No I am asking if there is anything in the site rules or anything in ethical code of the community that they have to adhere to when deleting stuff
The help page says "A lot of the moderation work is mundane: deleting obvious spam, closing blatantly off-topic questions, and culling some of the worst-rated posts on the site."
If you become a mod and you see Cody's negatively scoring answer, can you decide yourself to just delete it
 
We are "trusted users" while the mods are "super trusted users"
 
@Dharman Only if it has nothing to add over existing answers or it's actively harmful.
The same as the rest of us.
 
But I imagine that they are moderated by meta and helped by each other. I would assume that if there were actions that they thought could be considered contentious that they would bring it up in a discussion post in the moderator's chat room
 
10:16 PM
But mods are selected from folks like us. I see some of us being more restraint when deleting posts and some of us are more eager to press that delete button.
 
@Dharman Unless it was obviously harmful, and should be deleted immediately (highly unlikely from such a user), then in the interest of good relations, it would probably be a good idea to consult first (with them/other mods). However, if you are referring to within the context of the recent discussion on Meta about a question being deleted, then: I rarely look at who the user is that created a post, except in the context of tracking down spam/R/A posts/users.
So, it's not unlikely that I wouldn't have known who wrote the answers on that question, although I would have at least looked at the answer content to see if it was exceptional and worthy of significantly increasing the value of the question.
 
@Dharman Actually, I expect users turned moderators to not alter their behavior.
I wouldn't.
 
I was not referring to anything I just made up an absurd example to illustrate a point
 
I came around to code fencing thingmagingy. I still prefer indentation, but I can see its uses.
 
So what you are saying is that we trust the moderators to do what's best for the site and they should vote the same way as if they were not moderators. If they make a mistake hopefully someone points it out on Meta
 
10:22 PM
I would hope moderators are more accountable for their actions, in that they do act on "their" own. And it's not exactly uncommon for users to complain on meta, so perhaps a change of behavior occur to ensure that lines are not crossed for some of them.
 
@Dharman Basically, yes. Voting for a moderator is supposed to be because you trust their judgement, and that they are willing to be accountable for their actions to both Meta and the other moderators.
 
@Makyen Have you had time to reflect on your priorities about running?
 
@Scratte I'm still thinking about it. I'm also in the process of getting clarity on a change in what is expected of moderators.
 
According to that help page I linked, can a moderator just go on deleting spree and delete low-quality posts like this stackoverflow.com/q/34677564/1839439
I assume this is what was meant by culling. Normal users would first have to close and the vote to delete, so that would mean that at least 3 people would have to coordinate such task. That creates much more visibility and error checking. Mods have greater power and they can just go through 100 questions a day and purge the site, but what I am getting at is, whether they are encouraged to do so and is appropriate, since they never had such power as normal users.
 
@Makyen Hopefully that will come before you have to make your mind up then. I haven't been searching for what's expected of them, for obvious reasons.
 
10:34 PM
@Dharman Eh, if they would have gone through the trouble of finding other two users before to do that, they are just missing a step.
It's not like there isn't many post to delete easily.
 
10:47 PM
How about 30k privilege that would let users delete any negatively scoring closed question with a single delete vote?
 
@Dharman That would probably stir things up a bit. Some negatively scored Questions have positively scored Answers. It would almost be like having 3000 moderators..
 
@Scratte Then how about restrict it to no answers or with all answers <0 score
It is going to take me a 100 years if I have to ask for few del-pls a day in this room to clean up the whole PHP tag
 
@Dharman That would probably be easier to get support for :) I except even easier if the Questions are old have have less than X views.
 
@Dharman You mean all 1,358,720 questions? Yeah, that's going to take a while.
 
10:55 PM
Only 10 votes per day. I have to limit myself to the worst of the worst.
 
But how many new ones come each day?
 
Definitely more than 10
 
^^ User posted same question twice a few hours apart.
 
@bad_coder Why not the other way around?
 
@Dharman I caught that one in H&I queue, so I tagged it correctly, removed a "give solution" at the end...And well, it's slightly better.
 
11:00 PM
Gah... out of close votes again. Still have deletion votes though. Keep 'em coming @Dharman.
@Dharman I'm very impressed at your ability to keep up with so many questions worthy of deletion
 
11:14 PM
See this. I can't do anything about this. stackoverflow.com/q/29310022/1839439
Some days I feel so powerless
 
@Dharman Eh, viewed 43 times, triage actually handled that correctly but the close queue dropped the ball
 
@Braiam Probably not enough reviewers in the tag.
 
At least some things I just need to downvote and they don't need closing. stackoverflow.com/q/49775039/1839439
 
[visual-studio] is a biggish tag, I thought. Nearly 100K questions, anyway.
 
11:36 PM
Ok, I have used up everything except my flags. I can call it a day.
 
Post an answer or two; maybe you'll earn a few more DVs.
 
Or better yet the ability to delete questions immediately
 
Hmm. Microsoft is 'blacklisted'?
 
@AdrianMole According to MS the domain is whitelisted... interesting
 
@Vickel There's no recent activity :P
 
11:45 PM
@Dharman ooh..OK
forgot
 
@Vickel Did you just downvote it? I don't understand how it didn't get Roomba-ed
 
@Scratte Yes: it's not allowed. Just like asking the same question multiple times. It's an abuse of our limited resources. Please flag for moderator attention. We'll reach out to the user. But as @Machavity says, the questions need to be obviously the same. Don't expect us to see connections/relationships in all technology under the sun. (cc @Dharman)
 
@IanCampbell what's the correct flag then? or just leave it there? the downvote isn't mine
 
@CodyGray Thanks, but I cannot remember the exact wording of the others. My 10K sock-puppet isn't ready yet :)
 
@Vickel Roomba will eat that within 24 hours from now, I think.
 
11:48 PM
@Vickel I think you have the correct flag. I would vote to close if I had votes left. I just am trying to better understand the roomba rules
 
@IanCampbell that question was discovered by dharman's bot
 
@IanCampbell I would normally VTC but Makyen's script says it will go Roomba anyway.
 
it was there for 2 years, not doing anything :)
but should go, I think
 
Then someone dug it up downvoted and run away
 
I have plenty of spare CVs today, but what's the point?
 
11:50 PM
Well, from a practical perspective, the downvote was as good as voting to delete
 
@Makyen Where are you attempting to seek this clarity? Did you email the CMs?
 
@Dharman I've downvoted it now, so I hope it gets caught? Or was that a mistake?
 
@Dharman Finally time to post some answers, eh?
 
Gah, I keep forgetting there are daily vote summaries in the post history. It's obvious it was voted down today .
 
Downvote and VTC off-topic and/or non-English questions. Not sure why this is not obvious to everyone in this room...
 
11:52 PM
@CodyGray Well, actually, we spoke to Catija a while prior to my posting that message, who directed us to SamuelLiew, who I have not yet contacted.
 
@Makyen We?
 
Plural of Majesty?
 
"Me and the other non-elected-yet mods"?
 
And how would Sam be able to help?
 
@CodyGray rene is the one who talked with Catija.
 
11:54 PM
Sam has a bot that knows things...
 
Yeah, but I don't think that bot knows about changes in what is expected of moderators.
 
@CodyGray Sam was the editor here.
 
Oh, I see. Yeah, none of that is official.
I don't know if we're allowed to say this in public, but I think it's pretty obvious if you're active on the site, both in browsing and in flagging: moderator activity is highly variable. Some moderators do relatively little. Other moderators are insane beasts who handle hundreds of flags per day on a regular basis. Then, there are a handful of normal humans who do things like handle somewhere between 50-200 flags per day, with 30-60 minutes of engagement most days of the week.
Because real life sometimes interferes, we want moderator candidates to expect to spend at least 30-60 minutes per day moderating, and to expect a high flag volume (because, well, there is one).
If you set expectations high, then even if you fall, you don't fall to 0.
 
Now it's required to spend an hour a day? Unbelieveable ...continues flagging
 
But the point is that there's a fair amount of wiggle room and plenty of... how to put this... understanding and rationality.
 
11:59 PM
^ Only a minute to wait. But somebody spoilt your fun.
 
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