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00:14
@Dharman Yeah, I've been called far worse in games, and generally by people I didn't do anything to, unlike people whose questions I've closed or told needed improvement, who usually either don't respond or try to fix things. Occasionally I've gotten some backlash, but rarely namecalling.
Usually at worst they just stubbornly refuse to fix it and snarkily tell me it's my problem
 
1 hour later…
02:23
I am always having the same doubt when viewing azure questions. Are they on-topic? stackoverflow.com/q/61763620/1839439
@Dharman I went needs focus. I'm not sure exactly what they're doing there
 
2 hours later…
04:28
@sideshowbarker repeating Smokey's flags is pretty pointless; we just had this discussion yesterday
04:40
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica srsly? probably an attempt at humor; but let's just get the post deleted
05:34
do you mean to report those as spam?
@AlonEitan I'll be reporting them to metasmoke, so they will probably reappear here
also probably one flag request per post, so that they can be tracked and followed up individually
Thanks @tripleee
@Makyen What happens when a room-request is 3 days old and it's moved out? The votes cast already will age away, right?
@Scratte It should be in the CV queue for at least another day. If the post doesn't accumulate enough votes to be closed, then the existing close-votes will begin to age away after 4 or 14 days, depending on the number of views (views >= 100 is 4 days). Note: it's actually that they begin to age away sometime between 3.5 to 4.5 days and 13.5 and 14.5 days, depending on when during the day the CV was cast.
@Makyen Is that the total views or the views from the time of the vote?
@Scratte Total views. Yes, views from time of vote would be more reasonable.
@Makyen Yes. I think it would :) Example is my request that was bountied. It had a lot of views during that time. After it ended the views obviously declined.
Though I understand why it's not getting fast close votes, as it takes some time to evaluate. I also expect everyone voting on it to be able to explain why.
@AdrianMole Clever. Avoid using Sam's name, thus forcing him to actually read and comprehend the entire transcript in order to know you're talking about him. :-)
Or maybe you meant Aaron? Hmm. Which other moderators wear spectacles...?
06:54
@CodyGray Tim Post.
@Scratte Tim's an employee. (Used to be an elected moderator, though, before he was hired.)
@CodyGray I apologize. When I said "our cherished moderators", I meant anyone with a diamond. Not necessarily elected ones. I thought Aaron was an employee.
@Scratte Nope, Aaron's not an employee. But Captain Terrible is.
@CodyGray Strange. It does say "staff" on their profile.
@Scratte Aaron Hall?
07:01
@CodyGray No. Aaron Shekey
2
Q: Burninate [check]

UmaomamaomaoThe [check] tag. 60 questions, no usage guidance, and just a hodge-podge of people wanting to check something. No clear or useful purpose at all. Burninate and blacklist it I say. What say ye?

@Scratte Oh, yeah, he's staff. UX designer or something. Not a moderator, or even really a user of the site.
Adding to the list I think deceze also fits. We have an entire group now.
@Burnination-Feed Hey, look, one of the few burninate requests that I can really get behind.
@CodyGray I see I earned an honorable mention there ...
07:09
@rene Lieutenant Bad?
Oh, right, this comment. Surprisingly, not really. There's a big scary warning provided by the system, something like "Folks smarter than you have already contacted this user. Are you really sure you want to contact them again and risk screwing everything all up?" But we totally do, without paying it much mind.
:D
One thing Catija had to learn was that SO moderators have very few qualms about pushing buttons. I think that was a bit of a culture shock. Apparently mods on other sites on the network are...less likely to experiment than programmers.
Damned programmers :)
I guess SO mods approach it more like a debugging problem: "hey, this user object doesn't do the right thing. Let's feed it this suspension input and see how that goes"
hey guys, what are we voting for?
@AlexButane closure and deletions.. only. Well.. reopens too. And other non-scoring votes.
07:21
@AlexButane please see the Tour: socvr.org/tour
@rene Oooh, the page got a facelift!
(Since I last looked at it like 5 years ago...I guess...)
@rene got it
@CodyGray yeah, it is still dated. the FAQ page was also due to get an overhaul. That is on the 6 to 8 weeks list forever ....
@rene Seems fine to me. What is on the agenda to change? More sparkles and emojis?
Yes, the emojis will get added only to please you ...
07:27
Blinking emojis, please. Just to spice it up.
Thanks to Will, ಠ_ಠ is on my "approved" list. Otherwise...
@Scratte maybe add a like button / like emoji too?
We Will miss him, Won't we ...
@AlexButane You mean scattered across the fag, as a counter to see if people read the page?
q.. faq.. pff..
socvr.org runs in a docker container. I don't fancy adding complexity that makes that we can no longer kill the instance, build a new one, deploy it and be up and running again.
anything with storage is out of the question.
07:38
@rene I was joking.. ;)
07:49
@Scratte glad you were.
 
1 hour later…
09:13
@tripleee one flag is enough for NAA, innit?
@tripleee Unless there's some reason you're unable to flag the post as NAA (e.g. ran out of flags, or the answer was edited out of the LQP queue), then there's almost no benefit for other people to flag it. As such, we don't really support NAA flag requests here, unless there's an exceptional reason why it needs someone else to flag it. If there is, it's helpful to mention that in the request.
oh sorry, I vaguely remembered there was a problem with NAA flags here but the specifics had slipped my mind
@tripleee iirc 1 flag is enough to push it into the queue, any subsequent flag doesn't do anything. What can be a problem is with VLQ flags; if the post gets edited it gets send out of the queue. Then, since you can't reflag, ask for one here
in fact, returning spammer
the oldest post metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/234152 might be spam too but I simply del-flagged
 
2 hours later…
12:39
@Dharman I've hammered but it was actually a different issue. Still, already covered
12:51
> For anyone fond of linux, installing on USB gives a feeling of technology revolution. This is why I think we can do an exception an give a recipe on stack overflow.
@Machavity ?
-1
Q: İ think we have faıled the [turkey-test] and we should burnınate ıt

Andrew GrimmThe tag turkey-test has four questions: one question asking what the Turkey test is, and three other questions with only a small number of net votes. Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous? Per the tag wiki excerpt: The Turkey Test is qu...

13:53
@rene you almost gave me a heart-attack :)
you are welcome
It is a good test for "bring your humor" but it might turn out that my humor doesn't match that of the 0,015% that visits meta.
@rene Once I survived the initial shock, it dawned on me. Hence my comment. Unfortunately I was still in after-shock mode, so I forgot the ":)"
14:20
I am tempted to write an answer.. but I think it would be removed :)
15:33
Does anybody see anything in any of those "manually reported" questions from Smokey that even vaguely resembles spam?
@AdrianMole I made a mistake. Please forgive me. I was going to link the answers under these questions
Somehow I copied the wrong link
@Dharman If you sneeze, I can bless you!
But LazyAnts answer were certainly canned, spiced pork.
 
1 hour later…
17:27
@Savior Almost certainly a dup
@Savior Cripes y'all deletion votes now, too?
At least give the guy a chance to edit it
This is why this room has a bad rap
@AdrianMole Sounds tasty
@MattB. We can do badder ... I see myself out.
@rene Bad Blurred to the bone?
@MattB. It's hard to tell. What do they have? A String? A Date?.. but your target is a little outdated.
@MattB. there is no delv-pls request in this room for that post right now, AFAICT. You're just responding to the delete vote on the actual question, right?
17:39
Yup, it's true, the delete vote may not have come from here
I must say after hanging around for a few days I have a greater appreciation for all the horrible questions that y'all clean up
@MattB. Okay, I just checked our FAQ and we don't seem to explicitly forbid that. I've raised it in the backroom to verify with the other RO's to see if we want to pre-emptively rule that out
@MattB. thanks
... but I still find that zeal gets misapplied in some cases. It could also be helpful to explicitly recommend avoiding downvoting if you come to a question through this room.
In my experience (which led me to start watching this room on the side) — it's looked like this room is a firehose of downvotes, close votes, and delete votes that just gets sprayed across the site
I think we have had discussions about downvoting here in response to a report.
It's not on the FAQ
beyond simply not asking for votes
@rene I think points 10, 11 & 12 in the FAQ already address the issue(s) generally. Perhaps add some emphasis?
17:47
Myself, I generally do not, but there are some egregious do-my-homework-asap posts, and their hapless authors are not likely to be rescueable.
"firehose of closevotes" - yus!! :-)
Not necessarily a good thing when it becomes indiscriminate
And I think your priors have been thrown out of whack by looking at so many horrible horrible questions
:)
We can't target users in here, even if they're hapless. The only hapless ones we can target are the mods.
@AdrianMole They will be pleased to hear you want to keep them in order :-)
@halfer I leave moderation of moderators to fuzzy flowers.
@MattB. The question in question is not a very good question, in my opinion.
17:57
@MattB. I can't do much more then don't request here. If users from a chat room are no longer allowed to vote on the merit of the content they see on the site then it becomes a bit weird. I mean we are a bit special but beyond our moderation effort the voting will be similar to what other rooms do and/or meta. The only effect might be that users get their downvote rep back on an answer of it gets deleted due to a request here.
Well then you become a literal brigade
> Our goal requires a certain level of support from the community at large.
I came here because you had lost my support
@MattB. While I agree that the zeal does get misapplied in some cases, if you look at the posts which get reported just here as being off-topic and needing closure, they don't get many downvotes, just because they have been reported here. Yes, a significant number which are reported here do get a lot of downvotes, but that's usually because they are actually really bad.
OTOH, I do agree that there are some cases where questions get delete-votes well before they should, IMO. In general, OP's should be given the time/opportunity to improve their questions, but there are some people that delete-vote at the earliest opportunity, even when the question isn't that bad. It is something we (I) bring up with people on on irregular basis.
@MattB. Okay, and am I gaining it back or making it worse?
Well I do think you could ask not to vote on questions you wouldn't normally encounter beyond being linked to from this room
Down and up you mean?
@MattB. okay, I've update rule 10: socvr.org/faq#GEfM-no-up-down-vote-requests how does that read?
18:03
@MattB. But would you then apply the same 'restriction' on down-voting questions we come across in the Close Votes review queue? Or up-voting those in the Reopen Votes queue?
@MattB. IME, reporting in this room doesn't normally get questions a lot of up-/down-votes. It can on some questions which are egregious cases, but not normally, particularly not beyond the number of downvotes which have a function on the site (i.e. beyond the -3 which disqualifies moves the question off the home page).
@rene IMO, I think that might be a bit too strong. I don't think we should commit to not voting at all, for links posted in this room. Some content is so bad that it is remiss not to downvote it. Do you think we could word this as a general discouragement, rather than an outright ban?
Naturally I will run with majority opinion, but happy to lead the way in a bit of caution here.
I can't make both you and Matt happy. But what do you suggest instead?
@MattB. Note that I'm looking at it as an aggregate across thousands of questions, and that it's only my impression from looking at a lot of questions that are posted here. I am willing to have that impression altered and/or just discuss what gives other impressions.
@MattB. I've had a request here for almost 3 days now. The score of the Question has gotton one score vote since I posted it here. I think perhaps you're seeing something that's not really there.
18:14
@rene To be fair, Matt probably feels strongly about it, and I don't, and I'd be happy to defer to ROs here. With respect to Matt, I think he need to spend a bit longer here before insisting the room's rules need to be changed. I suppose we are an interesting position because we no longer have an employee room sponsor. Maybe something for a private RO discussion or room meeting?
For the sake of representing a compromise position, I would suggest this text: Do not ask for up- or down-votes on any posts. In general, we discourage reflexive downvoting on links presented in the room, though we acknowledge there are some cases where it is hard to justify not downvoting.
@halfer I personally didn't feel that it changed much. I already have it mentioned in the backroom and if this goes a bit back and forth then I rollback and create a meeting topic.
@halfer I wouldn't put it that way.
@Makyen No worries, can you amplify on that a little?
Sorry, I stepped away for a bit
@halfer I expect to, but wordsmithing can take some time.
18:18
I've only poked in and around for a short time, it's true. But I did so because I had seen questions regularly being burned without consideration of the person on the other side
@Makyen Of course, no rush at all.
I don't think it changes a lot of my day-to-day, to be honest.
What's RO?
@rene FWIW I don't mind it staying as is for the short term, no harm - and I'd be happy to see Makyen's proposed adjustment.
@MattB. maybe our "focus on content, not the user* needs some refinement then.
@MattB. room owner
@MattB. While I agree that there should be concern for the person on the other side, moderation on SO really should be based entirely on the content of the post.
18:20
@rene I very much like that update!
@Makyen But this isn't a room of moderators, right?
While I agree that there should be concern for the person on the other side, curation on SO really should be based entirely on the content of the post. :-)
@MattB. yes, but not all our regulars agree with that, so here we are ...
@MattB. On some level, all users on S.O. are moderators (small "m"); The elected (diamond) Moderators (big "M") obviously have more powers and expected duties.
@MattB. The SO (all of SE) is a model based primarily on user-level moderation of content. Actual moderators are the ones that are entrusted to handle exceptions (i.e. things that user-level moderation can't) or user-related issues.
We're just all a bunch of enthusiastic users who want to see the site be helpful and useful, I believe.
18:23
@DavidBuck I think we can spam flag recruitment ads as well.
@MattB. yes, we lack what helpful and useful means in all contexts ...
@MattB. I agree. That's what we (hopefully all) are wanting. Discussions on how to achieve that are beneficial.
I'm only here because — like I said — this room had lost my support and trust as an outsider. By coming here, I've gained more respect for what y'all do, but I still think there are ways in which you can improve. I'm not here as someone who will regularly participate in SOCVR, but I am here as someone who cares about SO and continues to use it and contribute to it myself. You're free to ignore my thoughts on the rules, but I think seeing my perspective could be helpful.
@MattB. I've been hanging around here a little while only. In that time I've never seen a request for score votes. Or mentioning that any particular post deserves votes one way or another. I've only seen messages being puzzled about upvotes on very low quality post, my own messages included.
I'm not talking about requests for downvotes, but rather the fact that (in my observation) I believe folks here do downvote as they cast their close votes
Or this particular discussion spurred because a close-vote request accumulated a deletion vote immediately once it closed.
18:30
@MattB. I understand what you're saying, and you can look at any request and the timeline to verify your suspicions. Unfortunately I cannot see delete votes, so I'm out on that one.
@MattB. I don't think anyone is wanting to ignore your views. We do want your perspective. It may feel like you're getting a lot of push-back, but I don't think anyone has indicated they don't want to discuss it. Personally, I'm definitely interested in understanding your position and understanding what generated the impressions you have.
@MattB. That's probably true (no way to know for sure) but if you're going to delete vote it's generally expected you've downvoted as well
@Scratte Unfortunately, timelines are not fine-grained enough to really be able to see if mentioning the question in here caused the downvotes (i.e. they are only shown on a daily basis, not more precisely).
@MattB. I can only speak for myself here, but I welcome external criticism upon me as a part of the loose collective. However, the first thing I read from you appeared to be dismissive and sarcastic, some of which was aimed at me personally. I am not sure that has created good foundations for a discussion, and I don't say that to offend you.
18:34
@Makyen I know that. Which is especially true for new posts. On the one that I mentioned (my own request) there's no indication that putting a request here resulted in a downvote pileup.
@halfer you mean from a few days ago?
I am happy to hear that you care about the SO community, but given the work we put in, I think we all do.
They don't give us enough downvotes.
OR close votes
Or delete votes
On the bright side, I've never used up all my flags yet :D
@MattB. Yes. I don't mean to rake over the coals - the point I am making is that discussion is best if we can all see good intentions to start with.
@Scratte I managed to do that, for the first time, the other day.
18:36
@MattB. Personally, I really agree that such posts shouldn't get delete-votes. I've brought it up to a variety of users on multiple occasions. There are a few people who automatically toss in a delete-vote whenever the question qualifies for one. I really don't like that, nor some of the reasons that have been expressed. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what we can do about that. Note that it's not something that's just on questions which are requested in here, we just happen to see those.
@halfer Seriously?!?.. You used 100 flags on a day? There should be a badge for that!
@Scratte It was either CVs or DVs - but yeah, I got a little sign saying "come back later". It shoulda triggered an easter-egg computer game or something.
Last week sometime, I managed to get over 90 flags in one day, but that was really hard work. Those that regularly get 100 post flags and 100 comment flags must be doing (or smoking?) something weird.
@halfer That's not the same thing. That's only 50 votes :)
I mean, yeah, I entered this room with a very sour taste in my mouth. Because time and time again I had seen half-decent questions get absolutely blazed. I pay most attention to a rather small tag that only has a few thousand followers, so things don't generally get more than a few downvotes naturally. I actually found this room because I kept seeing the same set of outside users on close votes.
But like I said, I've gained an appreciation over the past few days. I've been actively trying to get a better sense of how this room works and what it does.
18:39
@AdrianMole Yup. When I was going for Gold, I got in about 50 NAA flags in a day. But I did also monitor all the posts in case they they were edited and my flag had to be retracted.
So if you want to dismiss me because I came in hot, go for it
feel free to tell people they are wrong with a cv-pls. We do bin those if enough users agree.
Yup, and I've done so
@MattB. On the contrary! As has been expressed by others, the ROs here (I'm not one) are genuinely trying to keep things decent. But they're not super-powers (or even Moderators), so things can sometimes get out of hand.
@MattB. we're not dismissing anyone. And hotness keeps the cold away ...
18:42
@MattB. not exactly - I am just recognising the limits of human nature, in which I include myself. We all try to master our emotions, but first impressions take a while to erase.
@MattB. It doesn't work that way. Coming in hot just means that people are more skeptical the next time you come in. It doesn't mean they are not able to understand your point, nor that they are not willing to. But it helps keeping cool ;)
@halfer Do you not appreciate why I came in disgruntled?
Where any group of people come together for the purposes of ironing out a disagreement, all sides need to work constructively to dispel cynicism and dismissiveness. I should say I include myself in that too.
@MattB. You may also have noticed that there are one or two (maybe three) Diamond Moderators that are regular (or semi-regular) visitors to this room. If there were anything really sinister going on, I'm sure one of them would intervene. We also get occasional (and unannounced) visits from S.E. admins and other staff.
@MattB. What's the tag out of curiosity?
18:44
although I am scared to list it because I really like our little corner of SO
Too late
scheduled for deletion now
@halfer @MattB. I've settled on this phrasing for now. Here is the diff. Let me know if we need to bring it to a roommeeting to improve on that theme.
Those jokes hit a little too close to home to be funny
@MattB. See now someone upvoted that terrible post that I cv-pls'ed.
I cri evrytim
@rene I prefer that, though did you mean "conscientiously" rather than "consciously"?
18:46
@MattB. That's understandable.. but.. there's no corner of SO that will not eventually get the attention of curators. And the plus-side is that the tag will be more easily searchable after..
@MattB. Nobody is going to burninate your tag. Heck, I've never heard of Julia. If you'd asked me before now, I'd have just said she was a friend of Caroline
FWIW, I don't run curation searches by tag - all my searches are by trigger phrases.
halfer is easily triggered
@MattB. Just out of curiosity (and, personally, I am finding your comments very helpful), do you visit the Meta site much? (Meta-SO, not the Main Meta S.E. site)? If so, you may be familiar with the "Meta Effect." The first time I came across it (on a post I raised there for discussion), I was actually both shocked and stunned: Q was downvoted about 15 times in minutes.
@halfer of course, just testing if you read it .. (j/k)
18:48
@Machavity Plz halp me any1 VERY ARGENT beggin 4 halp, homework due yesterday but dog ate it
Woof
@AdrianMole yup, I do and have seen that myself. But folks don't think of the Meta effect as a good thing, right?
@Machavity lol!.. Good one :)
@halfer now fixed
@rene Ta muchly :-)
@MattB. I think some folks deliberately induce the Meta Effect, which I think is a bad thing. Likewise, I'm sure there are some folks who come here with 'dodgy' (if not downright malicious) intent. But, in the 6 months or so that I've been hanging around, I haven't found any of the regulars to be like that.
18:51
@MattB. I personally do not like the meta effect. It reminds me of when I as a young person saw a kid get beaten by grown men.
Anyhow, I appreciate the discussion; thanks for taking the time to think about issues along these lines.
And I very much appreciate working to continually improve the way this room works!
... It's a bit like football in the UK. The sport attracts a minority of hooligans, but it wouldn't be right to ban football because of that minority. Same goes here, I guess.
@halfer Please define the universe and give two examples
18:55
@Machavity Well that sounds like an excellent, focussed question, upon which you have demonstrated solid prior effort and research. Updoot for you!
@Machavity Uni means one. Verse is part of the lyrics of a song. Here's One song :)
If you must.. you can downdoot my answer, since I didn't pay attention to the quality of the question.
@MattB. BTW: Are you aware that your edit to this question will have resulted in the question being put in the reopen queue? Unless the editor has flagged or close-voted the question, the first edit to the body of a question after it's closed will put the question in the reopen queue (if done within 5 days of closure).
In general, it's better to leave that single entry-by-edit into the reopen queue for the OP to (hopefully) make an edit that changes the question enough for it to be reopenable, as the single entry-by-edit is their primary method for getting the question reopened.
Note that this question was also just edited by another user for, so your edit really didn't result in something that wouldn't have happened anyway. But, the fact that body edits do put the question in the reopen queue is something to keep in mind. The specific details of what edits put the question in the reopen queue can be found in Which edits push closed questions to the reopen review queue?
@Makyen Interesting, thanks for the info! No, I wasn't aware of that.
19:14
@MattB. np. IMO, it is a very unfortunate part of how the site works. I really wish that edits would only automatically put the question in the reopen queue if done by the OP. I believe it to be very rare that an edit by someone a non-OP who can't also vote to reopen will change the question such that it's reopenable. I expect that the current functionality of the site deprives a significant number of questions from being reviewed after being edited by the OP (after some other edit).
@MattB. However, if you want to make an edit for the purposes of keeping the site clean, or educating the user about how to write succinctly, just wait for a Q to be closed for more than five days, and then it won't go into the reopen queue.
(My experience is that the number of users who respond to closures by editing is very low, but that is probably a psychology and UX issue for Stack Overflow Inc to resolve, and it is not a trivial problem. There is only so much volunteers can do with the tools at hand).
19:46
May be the wrong place to ask but: is the vote correcting script still working? I'm seen few really obvious examples recently (e.g. all 15 of one user's posts upvoted within about 5 minutes) that haven't ended up being auto-corrected.

I've ended up flagging those for a moderator to look at, so I'm not really interested in the specific case, more whether the automatic scripts are now turned off
@DavidW they should work and if you flagged it can take 6 to 8 weeks before SE staff processed the request.
Mods can only escalate these issues.
Assuming you did wait for a day to have the script run. It runs somewhere after 0:00 till 04:00 UTC
Thanks. Yes I know it can take a while to get processed, although I doubt this particular case is subtle enough to need escalating...
Then assume it will be looked at, one way or the other
In this case there's one lot that should have been processed already. But it wasn't the first time recently that i'd seen something really blatant that wasn't autocorrected
and is your flag marked helpful?
19:52
The flag's currently "pending". Previous flags were marked helpful (+ the obvious sock puppets destroyed).
Okay. Let's wait for that to become helpful and then see where we are.
I was mostly just wondering if there'd be any change in the auto-correction. I know the general rule is "flag and someone will investigate (in time)".
@DavidW I haven't seen any other indication that the task for this isn't running. There was, however, a recent day where the Roomba didn't run. It's possible that the serial vote reversal task didn't run on that day. The script might be tuned/optimized to only look at votes in the last 24 hours, which might result in a day's worth of serial voting not being caught/reversed.
For science I might down vote all your answers and see how that goes ...
@rene Are you sure you wont get a hidden note on your profile? Even if a user says: sure, lets test it.. ?
19:56
If I try to downvote my answers it doesn't work. Hopefully everyone else is similarly blocked from downvoting me
@Scratte It can go with the other notes ...
@DavidW :D
@rene You mean the meta post about captain terrible? :)
like that, yeah
so.. now we just need volunteers for being serial downvoted by rene.. for science :)
@Scratte For the purpose of true balance in the experiment, can I volunteer to receive serial upvotes?
20:02
There once was an upvote app on stack-apps.
If you want to get a bunch of revenge downvotes, all you have to do is go vote-to-close a bunch of questions... C'mon guys. You all know this already. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.
@AdrianMole We're not testing upvotes :D But I was also under the impression that the reversal script left one vote behind.
I'll accept the left-over single vote, so long as there are at least 20 folks testing it.
@CodyGray The Questions need to be from >125 reputation users though.
@CodyGray Way ahead of you
20:05
@Cody YMMV, but my (suspected) revenge downvotes have all been from rejected edits, I think.
@rene ?.. that need a little more details.
@AdrianMole Sure, don't limit your imagination. They can also come from helpful answers on Meta, being a PHP programmer, ...
@SotiriosDelimanolis Indeed.
... still, Non Illegitimae Carborundum, and all that.
Gaudeamus Igitur
hmm
Can mods actually do anything about serial votes (other than escalating to super-mods)?
20:11
@CodyGray no youtube link? :(
@AdrianMole Qualified no. We can't reverse votes or anything like that, but if we determine that the votes came from a completely illegitimate account (i.e., sockpuppet), we can and do delete the account, which also invalidates the votes. All vote reversal must be escalated to staff.
@Scratte Protesting that feature.
Yes, of course! Nuking an account would have the desired effect. Doh.
Experience tells me that most of the stuff I flag along these lines ends up with nuked accounts. But then most of the stuff I flag is really blatant so probably needs little special information
@AdrianMole It's worth noting that stuff gets escalated to staff and then, mostly, dropped into /dev/null. Not mods fault; I suspect some serial voting just doesn't get looked at.
Probably true. I think I'm down a net -6 reputation due to serial voting that just got aged away. Maybe I should use the "Contact Us" form, and make a stern complaint? ;P
20:22
I get two or three at a time, every week or two, from someone who knows how to (mostly) stay under the radar. It doesn't bother me too much, my occasional upvotes make up for it
@AdrianMole You could try, but I am not sure it would be worth the bother :-)
I once posted a question on Meta about an answer of mine that was deleted by staff. I said in that Q that I had lost 25 rep. (which was how I noticed the deletion), but that I wasn't bothered. The staff member concerned posted a reply, explaining why the Q was deleted (copyright request from another company). During the course of the next 24 hours, two of my old answers (+10 each) and one of my old questions (+5, then) were 'mysteriously' upvoted! Didn't report it, though.
@AdrianMole I think there is some quiet tolerance for "official" serial upvoting, either from staff or mods. I think if it is used judiciously to offset some reasonable complaint of injustice, it's not terrible - just so long as ordinary users don't start doing it.
@halfer That's the general impression I have, too.
The real issue is the extra 5 points now that questions have been changed. Which can be rectified with 5 targeted downvotes I believe
I think there is a serious misjudgment by the community about just how large SO is and thus the likelihood of getting ostensibly "suspicious" votes on old posts. These are far more likely to come from users randomly coming across your old posts via Google or other searches, rather than targeted votes by staff/mods. (I think this because I've investigated a lot of these cases. In other words, I think this because I am right. :-p)
Regarding manual invalidation of targeted votes (when the script doesn't catch them), yes, that must be done by staff. Only a small number of staff have either the access, the training, or the job description that allows them to do this. And that number of staff has been steadily declining over the past year or so.
The reports don't go to /dev/null (either the ones you send directly via Contact Us or those escalated via us mods), but they don't tend to get actioned, either. Just not enough manpower to review them all.
It is, of course, true that nobody (whether mods or staff) is overly fussed about a small number of votes, whether up or down. We encourage you, too, not to be overly fussed about such things. It will tend to balance out in the wash.
But feel free to flag things if you want them to be investigated. We do take all reports seriously, even if our response is a bit slow. And even if we make the measured judgment to ignore what we consider to be a very small number of votes, we won't be annoyed at you for having reported it. (You couldn't know. Neither could we, until we investigate.)
20:37
In other words, reports about voting fraud are handled by MongoDB so they can be web scale
Isn't SO just one big voting ring?
'Tis not considered a voting ring when you are voting on content. The problems only come when you start voting on (i.e., targeting) a user.
3
Ah.. but some users post tons of good stuff. Can't very well vote on all that :)
No, you only have a limited number of votes per day.
I feel that I'm being intentionally misunderstood :D
20:42
@Scratte All my questions are very lovely and deserve squillions of updoots
@halfer Sorry.. I haven't been stalking you, so I wouldn't know :) ..PHP. I wouldn't know the difference from.. HPH
@CodyGray Possible 'edge case': If someone spends considerable time, in comments or chat, resolving a problem posted as a question, but then doesn't post an actual answer, is it then 'acceptable' for the guy who was helped to go select one or two of the helper's other posts, to upvote them?
@AdrianMole No. Not unless those answers actually have something to do with the problem (e.g., I linked you to them during the chat discussion).
@CodyGray Yeah, I didn't mean the emails go nowhere - just that they aren't a business priority to action.
@CodyGray I report serial voting on my account in order to help catch the offender, rather than to recover the lost votes
As you say, it is valuable to not care about it, and to encourage other folks not to care about it
@halfer Same reason why I investigate serial voting reports. :-)
20:46
:-)
@AdrianMole I come across good posts just be browsing users sometimes. I feel bad for not voting on it though. I really think I probably should.
@AdrianMole Of course, if you found my wisdom to be so beguiling during a chat/comments discussion that you were moved to go read some of my other recent answers... And you found those to be enlightening and helpful all on their own, well, then, you would be darn tootin' justified to upvote them.
Well, of course! Up-voting an answer based on its inherent merit is fine, and not necessarily connected to the reason that that answer was found, in the first place.
The key is that you actually need to read the posts and make a legitimate judgment about whether they are useful or not. Right.
Which reminds me that I need a user script to block out voting capabilities on users that I've already voted on.
20:49
@Scratte Why would you need that?
@CodyGray To not have to keep a file on my desktop.
@Scratte And why would you need a file on your desktop? You are solving a problem that does not exist.
@CodyGray I limit my votes to max 2 per user. I do not want to be called t the principals office to explain my voting.
@Cody Actually, I have (on a number of occasions) browsed recent posts from regular participants of this room, after a particularly enlightening conversation. However, I've yet to find any worthy of upvotes. ;-P
^ Poor attempt at snark!
@Scratte That's a terrible thing to do.... That's subverting the entire intention of the vote system. You are optimizing for the wrong thing.
@AdrianMole You've got to branch out. Look beyond my posts, and you might find some that are actually worthy of upvotes.
20:56
hehe
21:11
@Scratte I agree with CodyGray. This is something you should not be worried/thinking about. It would be best to read posts and just completely ignore who wrote them. If you're going to create a userscript to help you out in this area, a better solution would be to just hide the author's usercard, so you don't know who the author is.
Well, guys, it has been fun, but I think we've found the canonical answer to all questions, so there's not much more to be done here on Stack Overflow.
@Scratte I misremembered but here is the MSE post
@CodyGray he's not wrong.
@CodyGray I think that's a Question. It looks like one..
@rene Heh.. of course someone had to make that :D
21:45
@CodyGray I nearly posted that exact question yesterday
22:24
@Makyen That can be done with uBlock.
@Makyen Because I don't want to hide the users :)
It even works on chat :D

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