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12:19 AM
 
M--
12:36 AM
is there a difference between accepted answer and other posts when flagging as NAA? I couldn't find anything on Meta
 
12:51 AM
@M-- I'm just guessing, but I don't think so. Why would an NAA be less an NAA just because it was accepted? What is the post?
 
Not sure about the policy here. It's more than 10 years old. I have no idea if that was OK 10 years ago, sorry :(
If a small part of the content of the website is quoted in the answer, it wouldn't be NAA anymore, would it?
 
M--
@Scratte I am not sure if age has anything to do with NAA.
If a small part of the website...
I am not sure this is right either. It will be NAA if the post doesn't answer the question. If I post a link to a package and quote ...
"this package handles dataframes as objects both in memory and out of memory." While question doesn't ask for useful libraries (overlooking the fact that question is off-topic) but how to handle dataframes more efficiently (overlooking that this question is opinion-based and too broad), then I am still posting a link only answer and it will be NAA
p.s. I am aware that what I wrote is not coherent. sorry but the deli downstairs at our office was closed and I was too lazy to go out for lunch. Now I am functioning only on candies so, sugar rush
 
1:12 AM
@M-- lol
 
@M-- The question is asking how to run something every 5 min without having access rights to create a cron job on the server. How the the answer not address it?
Lets assume that there wasn't a link, but just flat text. Then the answer would be something like: I solved this using a third party product. You don't need to run it from your server.
 
M--
@Scratte it did, by linking to a website. I knew there's a hole in my argument. What I wrote above was just about "quoting a small part of the website". In general, when linking to a page, if there's a solution on that webpage, you should include necessary details to make your answer as independent as possible from the link (links will be broken, etc.). If we remove the link from this answer, what would happen? We'd end up with an answer saying once there was a tool, with bunch of advantages
@Scratte That'd be a comment I'd say
 
@M-- Yes, once there was a tool. Future readers can search for a different tool I suppose. I'm not sure anymore. I wasn't even sure to begin with.. It's a mess :)
 
M--
1:35 AM
@Scratte Let's wait for a Mod to review my flag, I'll let you know what happens
 
@M-- Thanks :)
 
 
1 hour later…
2:41 AM
@Machavity Lol i was ready to request that as well
 
 
1 hour later…
3:43 AM
@M-- In general, no, age and acceptance don't matter for blatant NAA. However, many of us moderators tend to agree with a sentiment Brad Larson expressed on Meta (in particular, see paragraphs 3 and 4) that it rarely makes sense to go around flagging or deleting old answers that others have clearly found useful (which vote score and acceptance would be a proxy for assessing).
Use of judgment is required. Is it a good use of your time to flag, or our time to review the flag? If it's harmful, literally contains no useful information, or is crowding out other good answers, then a NAA flag is welcome. If it's just an old answer that is only barely more than a link, but clearly folks have found that link useful, well...it might make the Internet a worse place to delete it.
 
I think this is a pretty good example of a situation where we aren't doing anyone any favors by deleting that answer. Especially now that the question is closed. What is the point?
Also... it is an answer to the question that was asked.
It's not "link-only", because it does what we ask: it provides context around the link. Does the answer become useless if the link goes down? Yes, but only in the sense that any answer about a service would become useless if that service goes down.
And it's definitely relevant, since it provides a solution for doing precisely what was asked.
(cc @Scratte, since you were involved in this conversation as well)
 
 
2 hours later…
M--
6:53 AM
@VadimKotov it's a spam
 
7:08 AM
@M-- Aargh! "Spam" is an uncountable noun, so you cannot have "a spam". It's just "spam".
 
M--
@CodyGray why you're still awake
 
Who else is going to complain about English grammar subtleties?
 
M--
@CodyGray LOL, I saw that, but was too late to edit, and thought nobody's here to complain
 
Haha, fair enough. I should be asleep...
 
M--
Not a native speaker, so these mistakes slip out once in a while, specially past midnight
@CodyGray since you're here. What do you think about these edits? stackoverflow.com/questions/60446619 and stackoverflow.com/questions/60446611
 
7:12 AM
Edits on those posts I already nuked as spam? They seem pointless...
 
M--
Are they harmful?
 
Nah, not really. It's entirely possible that was someone who actually was trying to ask an exceptionally low-quality question about web-scraping.
The other one? Yeah...I don't know. That's pretty iffy.
Might reach out to the user tomorrow when more awake and can actually compose something coherent.
 
M--
@CodyGray Thank you. I left comments but I doubt they've seen them since those posts are already deleted. 'night
 
Yeah, nobody reads comments.
Actually, fun fact: they did read your comment, because they flagged it as "no longer needed".
So possibly it's just me who never reads comments. looks at inbox with currently 100+ items
 
M--
@CodyGray Whaaaaa? gph.is/2rym2vH LOL
 
7:20 AM
Yeah. You do this job long enough, and you don't even try to come up with plausible explanations.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:59 AM
What to do about edits by a >2K that sort of makes paragraphs harder to read? Or at least not in accordance with normal writing?
 
@Scratte Can you link to the post
 
This is just one example. Before it was just one large paragraph. Now it's split.. but the new line on every single sentence isn't making it a lot better.
For me personally, it was easier to read before the edit. Now it's like I have to make a pause every time there's a new line. So the sentences don't have a natural flow anymore.
 
@Scratte I edited it, if you don't like it you can rollback to the original way
 
@U10-Forward Thanks :) But what to do if that user does this same thing on every edit they make? :)
 
Tell a moderator
 
9:07 AM
@U10-Forward I forgot about those :D
 
 
2 hours later…
11:12 AM
folks, observing some question and its timeline I've got a feeling that despite an almost immediate close vote system delayed pushing it to CV queue until triage was completed...
...Is that a known thing and if yes, could someone refer to where this is justified? I mean at a first sight this seems weird, if the question is close worthy then why keep it open (possibly for hours? or maybe even days?) until triage reviewers make up their mind. And if it is reviewed as Leave Open then it would be only natural to abort triage and save effort of reviewers in that queue
(was going to ask this on meta but decided to check here first, just in case if I missed that it was covered already)
 
11:38 AM
@U10-Forward This is not a debugging question. Thus, it can not be "no MCVE". Only debugging questions can be "no MCVE". No other question type requires code. Having code can significantly improve the clarity of a question or provide focus. Thus, adding code may move the question from being "Needs Details or Clarity" or "Needs More Focus" to being clear and focused, but code is not required.
@RiggsFolly That does not appear to be a request for off-site resource. It might be unclear, too broad, or primarily opinion based, but the user doesn't appear to be asking for us to provide some off-site resource, just "ideas".
 
 
1 hour later…
1:11 PM
@RiggsFolly Answered and accepted.
 
@gnat The timing indicated in the timeline does make it appear that pushing the question into the CV queue was delayed until after Triage was complete. Moving questions into the CV queue does happen as a batch process, but that happens every 5 minutes (on SO), IIRC. The time from the first "Unsalvageable" is significantly more than enough for the post to have been pushed into the CV queue as the result of the close-flag from the first "Unsalvageable" (assuming they flagged for closure).
I've confirmed that moving the question into the CV queue is delayed until Triage is done, based on this Triage review where the first "Unsalvageable" was from a user that cast a close-vote.
A non-"Unsalvageable" Triage result still pushes the question into the CV-queue, even if there is only one "Unsalvageable". This Triage review had a "Looks OK"/"Requires Editing" result (tied at 3x each), but still pushed the question into the CV-queue as a result of the close-flag from the one "Unsalvageable". It was also pushed into the H&I queue.
While it would be nice for a question to immediately get pushed into the CV-queue with the first "Unsalvageable", the reality is that it takes far longer for a question to be reviewed in the CV-queue than it does to go through Triage. In fact, a significant number of questions age-out of the CV-queue after 4 or 14 days having never been reviewed. Thus, I don't think that having questions immediately put in the CV-queue with the first "Unsalvageable" would actually gain that much.
 
or put all new questions in the CVQ automatically, the number of false positives should be negligible
5
 
How about every question starts closed and it gets pushed into reopen queue?
 
oooh, I like the way you think
with the new SO <3 community angle I'm sure we can make it happen
 
1:31 PM
Morning
 
I see. So, this is a known thing and there is no strong need to change it. Thanks @Makyen
 
I'm looking at this answer. I'm guessing it's ok. Does it look odd in any way?
 
@Scratte Looks like they have taken on spamming. Their last 10 answers are all the same. I'm rasing a mod flag
 
only 10? ..but in isolation the answer is fine, right?
 
@Scratte I'm not a fan of the link. Not sure if it is spam or not so the mod flag
 
1:46 PM
@Scratte it's all spam. I saw yesterday, but shrugged it off.
 
FWIW an auto flag should have be raised for the duplicate answers.
 
@gnat Well, it wasn't known to me that entering the CV-queue was delayed until Triage was complete. But, given how long it usually takes a post to go through Triage (an hour to a few hours) vs. how long it takes for a post to go through the CV-queue (sometimes days, or not completing review at all after 14 days), I don't think there will be a lot gained from the effort to change it. OTOH, I do agree that it would be better to push the question to the CV immediately upon an "Unsalvageable".
 
@NathanOliver an auto-flag?
 
Yeah. There are certain situations in which the system will automatically raise a mod flag. Like a rollback-war is auto-flagged as long as the revisions are exactly the same.
 
@NathanOliver That makes me feel so much safer :)
 
1:50 PM
@Scratte SO has a great system. Hopefully we can gets this community kerfuffle behind us and keep making it better.
 
@NathanOliver I'm only 49 days old. So to me the kerfuffle is normal..
@NathanOliver But just to be clear. If the user was being helpful. Leaving one answer would have been fine. Then what about the other ones? Leaving a comment on those?
 
@Scratte wait, what? You just joined? It feels like you are part of this community for years.
 
@Dharman I have that affect on people. Sometimes it's even good :D
 
@Scratte If they were just a clueless helpful user I would leave a comment. In this case I'm not sure that's what we have so I mod flagged to let them make the decision.
 
@NathanOliver No. I meant if this user wanted to tell about the change on all the 9 other posts. Would a comment from that user on those 9 other questions have been ok?
 
1:58 PM
@Scratte If the exact same answer can answer multiple posts then most likely they should be duplicates. If they are, then they should be flagged/voted to be closed as such.
 
@NathanOliver But this is sort of a corner case. A maven file can have several reasons for not fetching dependencies. So if a file has one type of error, it's not always a duplicate of another post with a maven file with another type of error. However, once something general changes, they will all have this extra particular error in common. Of course this answer only addressed this new commonality.
However the answer cannot really include a solution to the original problem because that would just be copying stuff from other answers.
 
So then it is probably not even needed and even more likely spam
 
Ok :) It makes sense. Thanks :)
 
2:15 PM
Spam on SE is like spam in real life; it's only good after it's been fried
 
Kinda. We like to kill spam with fire. Makes it inedible :P
 
@Makyen I think I understand. Looks like it may make sense to ask for changing this, do I got this right? You know, upon further thinking I figured what else made me feel uncomfortable about this delay. Thing is, close queue is prioritised to favor newer questions. So, when it leaves the triage, it may be too old to successfully "compete" for CV reviewers attention against newer questions. Paradoxically, questions that may be more close worthy get de-prioritised in close queue
 
2:32 PM
What's the accepted course for mod-flagging a review? Mod flag the post the review happened for?
 
@Das_Geek Or a post owned by the user you're flagging or whatever, just make sure to include a link to the review and a very clear description of what you're flagging for to remove any doubt
 
@Das_Geek Yes. Link the review in question
 
Cool, thanks :)
 
@Scratte FWIW, A mod marked my mod flagged helpful and deleted all but one of their answers.
 
2:47 PM
@NathanOliver Thanks. I noticed :) I was looking at the user and all their answers went away.
 
Would this be an appropriate place to get some eyes on a question that has no code and used to have a link to a site that had an example but is now 404?
 
without code in the question itself, it's unclear whether any linked content is as intended by question author or not
 
@j08691 Sure, we review questions here for their suitability on the site.
 
@j08691 I voted to closes as lacks a MRE. There's no code and the like is dead and archive.org doesn't have a backup.
 
3:02 PM
@NathanOliver right, my thinking as well
 
@NathanOliver archive was my first check as well, just got preoccupied with work before returning to cv xd
 
Closed now. Thanks folks
 
3:38 PM
@Makyen Please try to be clearer and/or more focused in your suggested CV reasons. :p
 
@AdrianMole OK. Unfortunately, when multiple reasons apply... :-)
 
np for Makyen :)
 
4:01 PM
morning all
 
M--
@Shree is it off-topic? looks like a legit question to me. I actually had the same question a while back.
 
M--
\o
 
@M-- the content may not be, but the title squarely puts in the realm of off-site?
 
M--
4:04 PM
@tink So, it can be saved through an edit? :/
 
@M-- I guess so - if one just replaced the "is there a library" with a "how can I get word coordinates"
 
@M-- Is there any library ? No answer. 10 month old . NATO. No answer before this. Don't think its help for any future user . If you think there is value sorry for request.
 
M--
@Shree no need to be sorry. I am just discussing it. That's it ^___^
I can actually post an answer to that, if I find the time. Left a comment to the tool that can be used for that matter.
 
@Shree @M-- .... this or this ? ;)
If we fixed the title it becomes a dupe?
 
M--
@tink yeah, they work, but at this point a gold-badger should step in (already at 2 CVs)
 
4:14 PM
hammer every thing.
 
It's back down to 1 CV, so we can do it without a gold-badge holder.
 
@M-- Love those gold badgers
And @Makyen 's course of action ... clean up and dupe vote! :)
 
@M-- BTW: Each dup-target which is selected while close-voting is included in the list of dup-targets once the question is closed. Thus, another time, if you want to include an additional dup-target, like the one you linked in a comment, you can select it as the dup-target when close-voting.
 
Geez. The close vote queue is at 6k
Think this might have anything to do with all the moderators we have lost in recent months?
 
4:29 PM
Yes
The 3 cv change had it down to 3K, then the kerfuffle happened and it's been going up ever since. It's almost like meta matters ;)
2
 
@NathanOliver there's been kerfuffle? What've I missed :p
 
Well, this new Head of Product and Community seems like she is willing to work with us (let's hope it's not just more empty promises ;n;)
 
M--
@Makyen I didn't know that. Is it something new?
 
Silly puppy, here have a scooby snack
 
She has committed to reading our posts on meta, so that's a start
 
4:37 PM
The fact that she's even here suggests that the higher execs are aware of the damage being done (to their bonuses), and know that something needs to be done to "stop the rot." But, let's wait a while and see what happens...
 
@M-- I'm not sure when it started happening. It's been that way at least since gold-badge holders were able to edit the dup-target list. It's just not something that's easily noticeable. In order to notice that it happens, you have to be the last close voter and there have to have been at least two dup-targets selected by close-voters (i.e. not just a close-flag, which can look like a selected dup-target).
 
M--
Cool :)
 
Yeah, it's a nice feature. :-)
 
@AdrianMole yep
Alrighty, I'm out
 
@Makyen I think it was shortly after the switch to 3CVs
 
4:46 PM
The multi dupe closure predates gold hammers. It used to be the only way to close a q to multiple questions was to have different people vote to close to different targets so they would all show up.
 
@Nick It's definitely been that way for more than a year. I've definitely intentionally used it when 5 CVs were required.
ninja'd :-)
 
:thinking: why did I think otherwise, I seemed to remember always having to ping a gold badge holder to add to the list
 
@Nick too focused on keeping the popcorn in stock? :p
 
Apparently so, because I can't find any source for my thoughts ^^"
 
I think, therfore you are ;)
 
4:59 PM
Although it did make me stumbled upon this (as of yesterday!) post to differentiate close votes which is nice
 
@NathanOliver well don't stop thinking as I enjoy the popcorn :)
 
Can do.
 
5:24 PM
Seeing approved edits like this I just wish we could directly report edits.
 
@leonheess ugh yeah... that's the kind of thing that makes me miss having a "Reject Edit" button now :)
 
M--
@leonheess The edit could be better, reducing noise, etc. but I don't think it needs reporting. You can raise a mod flag, but I don't see that necessary
 
@M-- I think it should never have been approved. He basically missed all the important things and randomly boldened stuff. If you are not convinced check out the rest of his edits ^^
 
M--
@leonheess I'd rather not do that :D
 
@leonheess if you've got a good set of approved edits that are just code blocking stuff etc... then you can mod flag and link all the posts with your concerns...
 
M--
5:32 PM
I'm not saying it's a good edit. I wouldn't have approved it. All I am saying is that flagging them won't do much
 
I'm not all that familiar with English comma rules. Is the comma in "I'm reading past entry but, I don't understand ..." placed correctly? In my native language I'd place it before the "but"
 
M--
@Scratte I'd put it before "but"
 
@Scratte You're correct. It should be prior to the "but". "I'm reading past entry" is also awkward. What it should be would depend on if the user is reading one or more than one entry.
 
M--
@Makyen can I plagiarize bunch of your auto-comments? :D
 
For one: "I'm reading a past entry"; for more then one: "I'm reading past entries". However, that implies they are in the act of reading entries at the time of writing, which may not be accurate. I'd probably write it as "I have been reading past entries" or "I've been reading past entries".
 
6:08 PM
@Scratte I'm not even sure the English are :p
 
@Makyen The past entry thing is very confusing, yes. I just chose to ignore it :) Now I'm seeing "I've been reading past the entries" and "I'm reading the past entry" and all of yours too :)
 
@M-- Sure. You, or anyone, is welcome to copy, or create derivative works of, any of my auto-comments for use as comments within Stack Exchange without attribution.
 
(if I'm writing formal documents I'm somewhat wary of usage of grammar and bits'n'bobs. Otherwise, I just tend to try and write, sort of how, but not quite, how I generally woof :p)
 
@JonClements I'm sure some of them are. But in general.. you're right :)
 
M--
Thanks
 
6:11 PM
np.
 
@Makyen Thank you :) It would be very awkward to put an attribution to you on a comment to someone else :D
 
@Scratte Yeah, it would. :-)
 
@Makyen could be fun though? :p
 
@JonClements Yeah. :-) I've actually thought about how to do so when considering using other people's comments. It'd get messy quite quickly. :-)
 
@JonClements I may be a bit confused here, but were you dressed yesterday?
 
6:18 PM
oh... I've gone back to my pre 2015 blue-eyed crazy looking puppy image
(if that's what you mean)
 
@JonClements Ok. Yes, that's what I meant. I recall someone dressed in black
 
I'm coming around to this image again... always liked it... hasn't confused too many people yet though :)
 
I suppose for the maximum amount of confusion a change of image and username at the same time has the best effect.
 
6:43 PM
 
7:05 PM
@Machavity @M-- What have I missed in the last SD report?
 
@Dharman Talking about it in Charcoal
 
@JonClements now that is some serious ninjatsu ;-) take off your ninja outfit and no one will know you're a ninja
2
 
7:20 PM
@TylerH :)
 
@TylerH On the Internet, nobody knows Jon will kill you six times before you hit the ground is a ninja
 
/me shush - I have a friendly persona to upkeep :p
 
lol
 
8:01 PM
Are we allowed to post del-pls about answers in the wrong language without any explanation on a question that is 4 years old?
 
@S.S.Anne From what I was told we should ask for deletion of NAAs if there is a chance the queue or mods will not delete it. If it is an answer it should not be deleted. Generally this privilege is used only in exceptional situations when an answer should really be removed from the site. Remember you can only delete answers with score <0.
 
I've flagged answers like that before and they've always been declined.
 
@S.S.Anne there's not a recent activity requirement for del-pls requests, if that is your concern.
 
I meant a new answer on a 4-year-old post that is in the wrong language and doesn't provide an explanation. I've flagged something similar before (the only difference was that it was on an older post) and the flag was declined.
Ah, well, I left a comment and the OP deleted it on their own.
 
If it is not obvious why you flagged as NAA it will be declined.
Which is why 20kers have this privilege
 
8:06 PM
Well, NAA is not for wrong answers, or answers to other questions
frustratingly
 
Maybe the answer is right, but the question is wrong?
 
@Dharman lol! Good one :)
 
@Dharman No.
 
When Charles Babbage showed off his miraculous calculating machine to the assembled great and good in the House of Commons, he was rather taken aback by a question from a Member of Parliament: "Pray tell us Mr Babbage: if the wrong inputs are entered, can it still come out with the right result?"
 
8:15 PM
Where did you get this quote from. I doubt its authenticity.
 
Apparently Mr Babbage later said "I cannot fathom a mind that would ask such a question".
 
Wasn't that Einstein?
 
@Dharman A very good question - I will have to have a web search. I found it very funny the first time I read it, and committed it to memory.
 
He never actually build the machine, right?
 
I am pretty sure it was Mr Babbage in whatever I had read. But I do have a habit of reading famous quotes that turn out to be fabricated.
 
8:18 PM
@Dharman no, Babbage, but the quote is inaccurate en.wikiquote.org/wiki/…
> I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
 
TIL
 
There was one about Margaret Thatcher, in which she was meant to have said that "a man that is still catching a bus at the age of 26 can consider himself a failure". It sounds like the snippy kind of thing that she might have said, but apparently there is no written record of it.
I was quoting that one triumphantly for years until someone disabused me :-)
@AndrasDeak Great find, ta!
 
Yeah, there's a few I used to use that aren't valid. Ben Franklin never said "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner. A republic is an armed sheep disputing the results"
 
:)
So Hillary Clinton never said "I should be locked up"?
;-)
 
8:23 PM
@Dharman That was Abraham Lincoln, you cretin :P
 
M--
Thank you
 
np
 
8:53 PM
@AndrasDeak I am not sure that Babbage said that in a reply. The Wikiquote has double quotes around the question but not around the response. Suggesting Babbage is commenting about the question. The same quoting can be seen on the plain text version in gutenberg.org/ebooks/57532 (from line 2523).
 
I never said he did. He was probably a gentleman, and as such he only said such things behind the person's back.
 
He was 1800's gentleman, but had several disputes with authority and with the people working to make his engines.
 
9:33 PM
Can a Question be completely re-purposed to en entirely different Question if it doesn't have Answers?
 
@Scratte By yourself or the OP?
 
@Scratte As long as the OP doesn't invalidate any existing answers they can do whatever they want with their Q.
 
@Dharman Interesting.. I was thinking about "by me as the OP", but now you mention it "by me not being the OP"
 
Sure you can.
 
@NathanOliver Ok :) Invalidating comments is not a concern at all then?
 
9:38 PM
Nope. Comments are ephemeral.
 
\emph Arial
 
Thanks :)
 
@AndrasDeak Yeah, I really botch that spelling.
 
you had me check that word to be safe :P
 
9:41 PM
I did learn today that I've been saying "(en)visage" wrong
 
@NathanOliver Not to worry.. English is hard, I had to look it up.
 
For being my native tongue, I've never liked it. It just doesn't click in my head like math does.
 
Strangely I just had a flag declined on plagiarism because.. "this is a question. Not plagiarism in an answer." How does that work?
 
@Scratte Link to the Q?
 
9:50 PM
And another that says I shouldn't raise custom flags because of plagiarism.
 
@Scratte You're going to need to show us exactly what it says, because that doesn't sound right. You are supposed to raise a custom mod-flag for plagiarism.
 
Compare this Question to this code
 
@Scratte you can ask about code you found if the licensing checks out.
 
@Scratte While there is a fair-use argument for being able to use someone else's code in a question, that's a copyright issue, which devolves to being different depending on the country. Plagiarism, representing someone else's work as your own, is distinctly different from copyright, although many people conflate the two.
 
@Makyen Maybe that's it then..
 
9:55 PM
 
I agree with Makyen
 
This is the declined reason: i.stack.imgur.com/1zKCX.png
 
@Scratte Unless the author of the SO question you've linked is the same as the author of the blog you linked, then there is plagiarism on the part of one or the other. You would need to find an archive of the blog post to determine when it was posted.
 
@Makyen I'm certain they're not the same. This user had 2 other posts with code from two different sites as well. But since my flags are declined it seems sort of pointless to begin an investigation.
 
@Scratte This archive from 2011 indicates that the code existed on the blog prior to the SO question. Thus, the plagiarism is by the author of the SO post.
 
10:01 PM
@Makyen You're very fast..
 
@Scratte Thanks. I've had to look for archives before :-), and have a bookmarkelet which opens a tab with the archive.org page for the page I'm viewing.
 
So.. I take it the moderator maybe just had a bad day then.
 
@Scratte What you can, and should, do is create a post on Meta to ask about what's going on/why the flags were declined. To me, what you linked above is a clear case of plagiarism.
 
@Makyen I'm not adult enough to create posts on meta..
I have yet to see a complaint post on meta without a million downvotes :)
 
@Scratte The key is to make it not a complaint, but a real inquiry as to resolving your confusion over why the flags were declined. Don't try to assign blame. Don't categorically say the moderator was wrong. Explain what happened. State what your understanding is/was and ask for clarification.
 
10:12 PM
Much like how most bugs are features, mods are never wrong. They just sometimes have a different assessment of reality. ;)
 
@Makyen Yup.. I don't buy it though :) There's an implicit complaint no matter how it's phrased
 
@Scratte no, you can assume that the mod with 5-10 years site experience knows it better. The task is for you to understand their perspective.
if it turns out that the mod was wrong that's just a side-effect
 
Note that if the OP had said something like "I have the following code, which I found [on this page] ...", then the post wouldn't be plagiarism (i.e. they wouldn't be representing it as their own work). Unfortunately, at this point, it's very hard for someone else to add attribution into the post, because we can't know where the OP got the code, and we can only guess at who actually owns the copyright. If we could know where it came from, then we could fix the plagiarism.
 
most cases are not clear-cut, so you can't know if a mod misclicked, or if they were sloppy, or they made a conscious choice that doesn't agree with your assessment
 
@AndrasDeak if only it were true :-)
 
10:15 PM
@Makyen meh, one could easily remove any reference to the origin of the code. "Consider this piece of code: ...". Then it's considered.
@TylerH it takes a very good mod to be occasionally wrong
 
@Scratte Yes, and no. There's a big difference between trying to assign blame and trying to correct your own understanding.
 
@Makyen There's another approach that will get me into a lot less trouble. Both with the moderator and with declined flags: Pretend I don't notice it.
 
@AndrasDeak You mean to admit to being wrong?
 
@Scratte you're also free to notice and accept it...declined flags are no big deal
 
or you mean to only occasionally be wrong :-P
 
10:17 PM
@TylerH in the framework of my earlier message, both :P
@TylerH no
 
@AndrasDeak :-) Mods are human (we think), just like all of us (supposedly :-) ). We all make mistakes from time to time. MO, it's more important how one deals with having made a mistake than it is that they make no mistakes (with some rare and situational exceptions, mostly covering situations where the mistake has irreversible consequences, none of which apply).
 
@AndrasDeak That's not how I read the reason. I read: Stop using custom flag for silly things.
 
@Makyen I agree; my message was largely tongue-in-cheek
@Scratte it seemed like the custom decline reason for flagging silly things
 
@AndrasDeak Could be that too, yes :)
 
@Scratte well, the top one. The bottom one in your picture is custom-written.
I suspect the mod wrote the heartfelt response, and then just declined the other one implying the same reason for the same flag
 
10:25 PM
@Makyen I'm pretty sure it's from the mentioned site. But.. I don't want to fix it. Because I can't find a licence on the site.
@Makyen Correct that. I found it: rgagnon.com/varia/copyrightnotice.txt
 
M--
@dbc it's actually rude
 
@Scratte The real problem is that we can't know that it's actually from that site. It's really likely that it is, but we don't know it as certain.
 
dbc
@M-- Ah OK. Will you flag it as such then? I already flagged as VLQ.
 
@Makyen True. So it's between a rock and a hard surface really. Not knowing or knowing for sure that they do not want it to be copied.
 
10:48 PM
@Scratte Licensing/copyright is significantly different from plagiarism. Plagiarism is simple. Plagiarism is explicitly or implicitly letting people believe that something is your work when it was done by someone else. SE has some very clear guidelines on how to reference material by other people. If those are complied with, then the person isn't plagiarizing, because they clearly indicated the material was by someone else.
Copyright, on the other hand, is a complex legal issue which varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. For example, in the United States, there is a concept of "Fair Use", which is nebulously defined. It can only be truly determined through litigation, but there are some guidelines and many existing legal cases. If the use is permitted under copyright law / licensing is really not something which we or moderators should be arbitrating in most cases.
 
@Makyen I read that as: So as long as a post says where it came from, then it's OK here. Even if there's a notice to not use it.
 
@Scratte No.
If a post says where it came from it's not plagiarism, or at least probably not in the SO sense.
(researchers' notion of plagiarism is stricter)
"notice not to use it" is not a category of plagiarism. It's a category of licensing/copyright.
 
@AndrasDeak Yes, I get that. That's one side. The notice to not use it is another matter, but we're not lawyers, so what should we do if we see an exact copy of an official Oracle tutorial on the site? Or in this case code that's saying "please don't publish this"
 
That's another matter, I was reflecting on your previous message saying "as long as a post says where it came from, then it's OK here".
 
Yes. That's because of the "concept of Fair Use".. I read that as: when there's no issue with attribution, then it's up to the lawyers, so.. don't fuss? :)
 
11:01 PM
@Scratte If there's something that makes the situation very clear, then determining the copyright/license status may be possible and reasonable, but it's not something that's easy to determine at a glance. The general position with copyright is that everything is copyrighted and there is no right for anyone other than the copyright holder to make copies, create derivative works, etc. Only in cases where there is a know exception should it be considered that the use might be permitted.
 
@Makyen Doesn't that conflict with the fair use?
 
M--
What? How this user posted an answer after the question was closed? stackoverflow.com/a/60460345/6461462
 
@Scratte "Fair use" is an affirmative defense to someone suing you for violating their copyright. As I said, there are guidelines for how and what the court should consider, but there's no "this is" / "this isn't", except where similar cases have already been litigated. OTOH, there are broad categories which are known to be fair use, if the use is kept within reasonable bounds (e.g. very limited use in education, parody, etc.).
 
I mean if I take code from Oracle's website, I'd expect it not be permitted under copyright law, if I post it on Stack Overflow.
I'd expect I wouldn't be able to hide under "Fair Use" in that scenario.
 
@M-- The prevention of new answers is client-side for up to 4? hours after closure. If the client doesn't get the notification that the question is closed, then the server will accept the answer when it's sent.
 
M--
11:10 PM
@Makyen Wow. Thanks, didn't know that. Is this NAA though?
 
@Scratte That's going to be complex. It will depend on the country it's done in, what it's being used for, how much is copied, etc.
 
@Makyen But isn't Stack Overflow also accountable for what's contained on the site?
 
@Scratte Yes and no. It depends on jurisdiction. In the USA, they would hide behind the DMCA by taking down anything for which they received a valid DMCA takedown notice. Doing that would relieve them from liability in the US.
 
@Makyen Ok. I don't think that works in Europe after they changed the rules a year or so back.
 
@M-- np. That one is an answer, or at least an attempt to answer. The other "answer" is NAA/VLQ (non-English). The question is, obviously, off-topic, due to not being in English.
@Scratte Copyright is a very complex issue, which varies significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Competent copyright lawyers get paid quite a bit of money. Even so, they will often specialize in certain areas of the issue and usually by country. In other words, to get a worldwide picture of any particular situation you may have to consult multiple lawyers.
 
11:20 PM
@Makyen: Thank you for your patience btw :)
 
@Scratte np.
 

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