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12:22 AM
 
12:59 AM
 
1:16 AM
Not even the right SE site for that spam...
 
Hey, @CodyGray, I'd like to have a brief word with you regarding Maxwell, the guy with the deleted Machine Learning question, discussed yesterday in this room, and here: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/400357/4014959
 
1:34 AM
@PM2Ring That sounds like you might be leading into a discussion about a flaggable issue, which is something we don't permit pinging of moderators for here in SOCVR. Please just be sure you're not headed in that direction.
 
@Makyen Understood. This isn't something resolvable by flagging, (IMHO). I don't need Cody to use his mod powers for anything.
 
1:50 AM
How does one help with tag burnination? Just asking because of this: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/384601/…
 
2:05 AM
Do I have to set anything else up for this? Bots/userscripts? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/384601/…
 
2:48 AM
@SamuelLiew There is a bot I'm not sure if Jon was trying to resurrect the Gemmy account or not
@SamuelLiew Burnaki is the burnination bot, if you just want to run it on your own. We've typically put it into its own room in the past
 
 
1 hour later…
4:03 AM
Not sure what's going on with this opencart Question. I thought is was lacking focus, but now I'm not so sure. It even has a nice Answer. Are the questions related enough for it be focused?
 
4:15 AM
@DanielWiddis The same thing I did, clearly, since I've hammered that one through ex post facto.
@PM2Ring I'm available for a discussion now; sorry, I was unavailable earlier. If it's something that would be inappropriate here, feel free to ping me in Ministry of Silly Hats or Python.
 
4:51 AM
@CodyGray Sorry, I got busy on Physics & didn't notice your ping. I pinged you here because you had that convo with Maxwell in here. But I'm happy to talk here, or in Python. In any case, I don't intend to have a long conversation.
 
@PM2Ring OK. It wasn't so much about the length (although that might be a concern, too), but if it was going to be something close to moderating/reporting a user's behavior. Anyway, I can move it if it gets borderline. What's up?
 
@CodyGray Ok. I feel there was a bit of confusion on both sides regarding the deletion of maxwell's ML question. And he feels that he was misled into thinking it would be safe from deletion. He now accepts that it does deserve to be closed, but wishes it wasn't deleted.
Although it's off-topic, I'd be happy to cast an undelete vote on it, just to give the guy back a bit of rep. OTOH, it's not like that question actually deserved a bunch of rep. And I don't want to annoy people by canvassing for the undeletion of an off-topic question.
 
5:06 AM
I've already undeleted it, as I normally do for anything that is currently under discussion at Meta.
Eventually, it should probably be deleted, along with the Meta question, but not while either of them are still relatively "active".
 
@CodyGray Ah, ok. I hadn't noticed that. :)
 
It was only a few minutes ago, when I was handling Meta flags.
 
I'm curious: what are the standards for Meta question deletion? I assume questions are the most likely to be deleted due to obsolescence, but which ones should be kept?
 
The useful ones
 
I'd closed the tab, so I didn't notice. And his rep is still <20 though.
 
5:10 AM
The system probably hasn't recalculated rep yet. Or there were more downvotes in the meantime.
I pay no attention to rep whatsoever unless I'm investigating vote fraud.
 
@CodyGray Agreed. But if it could wait a week or so, that'd be good. And maybe he'll earn a bit of valid rep in the mean time...
 
@CodyGray (it's the former, according to rep history)
 
@PM2Ring To do what with?
 
@PM2Ring Yeah, that'd be great. It's annoying to me that Meta regulars will often delete either the main question or the Meta question as a "super" downvote because of how strongly they disagree with the point being made. They're not wrong in their strong disagreement, but they are wrong to be deleting things that are currently under discussion (as long as that discussion is remaining even slightly constructive).
 
Speaking of Cody not paying attention to rep, I just upvoted an answer I was reading and realized he wrote it. Thanks. :)
 
5:13 AM
@Vega Yeah, let me know when you figure out what you can do with the rep earned :-)
 
@RyanM Yeah, it's +7/-11 which should add up to at least 49, depending on when they downvotes came.
 
@DanielWiddis Are you sure you found it useful? I didn't get any "thanks" comments on any of my posts... :-p
 
@CodyGray I did, and might leave a thanks comment but some random mod might delete it ;)
 
@Vega Chat, post comments. It must be pretty frustrating to get chat privilege & lose it in the same day. I admit some of his behaviour hasn't exactly been endearing, but I suspect that's at least in part due to being stressed out & feeling attacked.
 
@DanielWiddis No thanks
 
5:19 AM
The best comments are when someone thanks you for dupe-hammering their question. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.
Speaking of rep, I had a diabolical idea the other night for a feature that the company would never implement: negative bounties. When an answer is so bad that you're willing to spend rep to reduce its score. :evil grin:
 
@PM2Ring You may or may not be surprised that this has already been proposed at least once.
It's a terrible idea, but I know of an answer or three deserving it.
 
Ha! For those times when mere deletion just isn't enough.
 
Well, unfortunately the answers in question have many upvotes...they're just...wrong.
 
And if you delete it, some fool well-intentioned but misinformed person will just post it again anyway.
On a more practical note, if the question has value, and there are a few useful answers, you can create a new version, and delete the old question, killing all the old answers in one go. That can work ok on old questions, where all the answers are older than 60 days, so nobody loses any rep.
 
How do you know what the user's intentions are? You should refrain from judging user's intentions. ;-)
@PM2Ring Not a great solution... You lose some search juice and break a lot of bookmarks.
 
5:30 AM
@CodyGray Everyone intends to make a positive contribution... unless they're an actual troll.
@CodyGray I suppose so. But if it's worth bookmarking, maybe it's not so bad after all.
 
Some of the answers are worth bookmarking; others aren't.
 
@CodyGray Maybe they're duplicated elsewhere. ;) I was only being half-serious, but I'm sure you've seen those ancient "dinosaur" questions that have accumulated a vast number of low-grade answers over the years. It gets tedious going through them, pruning away the dross. But I guess low-scoring poor answers are a lot less of a problem than the high scoring bad answers...
 
Yes, and yes.
Mods will sometimes clean up those old questions that have accumulated a vast number of low-grade answers over the years, but doing so generally requires not only spare time, but also subject-matter expertise.
 
5:46 AM
Right. Mostly, the obviously bad ones are obvious without domain expertise, but not always. A brief answer might contain a gem. Eg, I can normally judge Python answers that use the standard libraries, & some of the popular 3rd party libs, but there's stuff like Django & Pandas that I'm ignorant of. OTOH, there are so many bad Pandas questions & answers that you're unlikely to accidentally delete a good one. :D
 
I have taken advantage of that at least once before.
 
6:25 AM
Morning
 
Morning
 
Afternoon
 
Wonder how this sentence can be missread:
Me: "my usual of detecting the version by reading reg keys etc". That description is kinda poor. Please edit the question and add a minimal reproducible example
OP: @Cleptus sure I removed that bit
Did not add the registry reading code...
 
Ah, that badly received question.
 
Evening.
 
6:28 AM
Asking how to do something doesn't require code
 
"I have a registry reading code that does not work" should require code
Now that that sentence was removed and the question and anwer make sense I have retracted my "requires mcve" flag
 
We're getting rid of Id. Asking new users for their Id is no longer needed here.
8
 
@rene I did not ask nor post here that user's id. Was that comment addressing me? Or was just informative?
 
@Cleptus no, not all. I moved on already, sorry.
 
NP ;-)
 
6:35 AM
I wanted to make the room aware of the on going burnination as our room is mentioned there. Some of us might want to help out or users might drop-in here to ask for guidance. In spirit of the burns, I wanted a punny title
 
By the end of this burn we will all be wizards
 
Why do some of the starred posts have hollow stars?
 
@Nick They are pined by ROs
 
@Vega thanks, I thought it must be something like that
 
6:46 AM
yw :)
 
They's not superstars though, like Sirius or Vega :)
 
... Elvis Presley ...
 
Are we allowed to cv-pls older-than-6-month posts for the burnination?
 
@Nick Checking the css classes of the hollow star, you can see the difference, similar thing with different nick names (blue, italic)
100 questions, that burnination is going fast
 
@Cleptus star and user-star and owner-star... bullions and bullions of stars...
 
6:51 AM
And for the bonus point, movie its final scene was full of starts? <-- Google is cheating
 
@Cleptus Italic is not visible on mobile
 
@DanielWiddis I tend to say yes but it is not explicitly ruled out in the FAQ so I assume someone is going to complain if I say yes. State explicitly in your cv-pls it is for the on-going burnination then I will allow it until chaos breaks ....
 
7:50 AM
 
8:11 AM
 
8:45 AM
Was not sure what to close it as, but it seemed closable :D
 
9:25 AM
 
10:13 AM
 
10:53 AM
@desertnaut done ;-)
 
@Cleptus cheers :)
 
11:04 AM
Someone give this a better title so that it can be a good sign post. A very similar answer is available in the duplicate target but it has zero score, hence, at the bottom.
 
@oguzismail you mean the math.lcm one?
 
@tripleee yeah
 
@oguzismail "better title" is arguable. The title asks one thing and the body asks another, and the accepted answer answers the latter... But for that problem the linked duplicate is perfect. It has 0 score (now 1) because it's a brand new feature. For anyone in python < 3.9 that answer will not be applicable.
 
@AndrasDeak I guess what Oguz is suggesting is that this could be a good canonical even though it's a duplicate going forward, as this answer is now better than the heap of old answers on the duplicate question
but the title is obviously hopeless for that particular use case
 
I left a comment for the (active) asker and suggested accepting the new answer. That would fix this problem.
 
11:16 AM
the OP accepted the answer so I think retitling might be the way to go
 
Yep, exactly
 
@tripleee yeah, sure. But I'd hold back on reversing the dupe
 
@AndrasDeak definitely
retitled, please review? I didn't want to invalidate the other answer with any() so ... it's still kind of messy
 
works for me
 
@tripleee At least better than the original title
 
11:34 AM
I don't know what makes people leave the umpteenth redundant answer to popular canonical questions
 
@AndrasDeak imaginary internet points
 
not on my watch :P
 
^ the same user posted an identical answer on Super User too
 
1:11 PM
@desertnaut note that OP vandalised their own code out of the question, I rolled back.
 
@Adriaan copy (didn't see that); I rolled back my tag edit
 
@desertnaut it still needs focus, since it asks three questions and especially the first one is very broad
 
@Adriaan yes, the request still holds (the answer is good though)
 
@SurajRao Based on the accept, it looks like it
 
Ooops, I did not see that Suraj mentioned that question before
 
2:16 PM
 
 
2 hours later…
4:17 PM
Oh, EdChum retired from SO once he hit 100k CV reviews
bit surprising
 
Maybe they're awaiting the extra 99 Steward badges.
 
Maybe there should be a Frequent Flyer badge for collecting all Steward badges
 
I've seen a few people with round numbers of reviews but assumed they stopped reviewing, not quit SO altogther
Not all Steward badges are equal. H&I is a sisyphean task compared to FP or Suggested Edits
 
4:37 PM
@DavidBuck Yeah, I still have 2 (two) completed H&I reviews
At this pace I'll get the badge in the next millenium
 
Is a delv-pls on the umpteenth redundant answer on a high-profile question acceptable here? I can't see anything contradictory in the FAQ (the answer is new but has negative score), but better to be safe and sorry.
 
What is it better than though?
 
@JohnDvorak is that aimed at me? Because I don't get it
 
In the Low Quality Posts queue, if I choose Looks OK for code only posts, but everyone else keeps recommending deletion, would that result in suspension for me?
 
@AndrasDeak Yes but they'll come here and whine about it if we delete
 
4:46 PM
@oguzismail uh, that's not how rules normally work
If posting that is OK then that's irrelevant; if what you wrote is a problem then posting that should not be OK.
 
@MarioGalic No, I do not think it will. The others may be suspended though.
 
@JohnDvorak OK, now I get it
@AndrasDeak s/and/than/
 
@MarioGalic In general, a code-only answer is something that should be reviewed as "Looks OK". It's not, generally, something that should be deleted as NAA or VLQ. You, or the other users, getting a review suspension would depend on the post and if the review task came to the attention of a moderator. If your response was correct, then it's not going to result in a review suspension. Code-only answers are generally considered low quality, but not Very Low Quality.
3
 
Meh, I would recommend deletion if there are better answers posted already.
 
Some may feel the need to post the review in the troubled review room.. so.. besides, sometimes one persons "better answer" is another persons "I don't get it"
 
5:00 PM
How can you "get" a code without explanation of what the code does? In fact, that's probably why you don't "get it"
 
Because one answer could use one type of loop while another users a stream or another answer uses some different method. One of those will speak to me, and explanations don't always explain it in the way my brain is wired to understand it. Some code just makes sense.. but not to everyone.
 
I prefer that people write answers that any brain would understand.
That is only achieved by accompanying code with explanations.
 
Well.. I think it's fair to say that we don't understand things the same way. There is no "any brain can understand". It will help everyone when people understand that.
 
It would be more easier to just accept that SO is not for everybody. The quality standards that the site sets, are the standards that posts should follow.
 
Deleting a code only Answer in review goes against the guideline. I do not hesitate to raise flags on those reviews.
 
5:06 PM
Consider the following code-only and link-only answer stackoverflow.com/review/low-quality-posts/26953284 Personally I went with Looks OK
 
@Scratte [citation needed]
 
@Braiam Heh.. you always go there. I always waste my time finding it.. because then you argue that the consensus is wrong :D
 
@Scratte Consensus is wrong if you only look for the one that favors your PoV.
 
@MarioGalic I think it needed some additional explanation. What they have now really requires going to the link to actually get an answer. If they included some usage example/guideline I don't think it would've been a problem.
 
5:10 PM
@MarioGalic two other answers specify the same and more.
 
Again, I've been a member of this site for 8 years now: I've seen every guidance craved with blood and tears and drama (much drama). SO is the only one that paints itself into a wall following this absurdity
@Scratte Do you wonder why that post is only on SO?
 
@Braiam That's the way it's done here. We are absurd here. It's better to like it :)
 
Heck, Shog had to update the post to make sure that crap gets deleted "Add a bit of nuance to the guideline for low-quality answers: abject crap should still be deleted! Also update apple image to match, update flag dialog screenshot to new format, add alt-text"
> Only if you can't plausibly imagine anyone putting in the work to fix the post should you opt to delete these kinds of answers.
I'm not writing an explanation for code without explanation. For that I would write my answer instead.
 
@SurajRao I don't think that other posts should be considered in deleting answer through review, but this answer definitely didn't have meaningful material within the answer itself.
 
@Braiam That's nice. So you don't edit it in? ;)
 
5:15 PM
@Scratte IT IS IN!
Have you read the post you link to or you just link to it?
 
@MarioGalic I have no idea if that is enough to answer the Question.. or if it's bordering on link-only.
 
@Scratte technically it is not NAA.. without the link the text answers the question
 
@Braiam I read it.. I think I read 3-4 about the low quality posts queue. Another 8 posts about the "Very Low Quality" flag and 7 about the "Not an Answer" flag.
 
@Scratte Then, and let me get this clear: what should be done with crap?
 
@SurajRao Yes, which is why I chose "bordering" :) But.. unless a moderator picks it up, it's almost sure to be deleted in the queue.
@Braiam Does it attempt to Answer?
 
5:20 PM
@Scratte Crap should be deleted? Yes or not?
 
@Braiam That depends on the "crap" as you call it.
What you may think is "crap" could be the solution. I've been involved in several cases where a valid Answer was getting deleted in that queue. I assume someone just saw "crap", when I investigated and saw "a solution".
 
@Scratte No, it doesn't. Crap should always be deleted. Crap is whatever you can find in yahoo answers/quora. Crap is what gets posted that don't even respect the reasons why this comic exist. Crap is what kills the site, by a thousands paper cuts.
You want to kill a site, any site: fill it with crap.
 
@Braiam That is your opinion. But you state it as though it's a universal truth. It's not. In fact, it's not because we don't agree. If I do not think something is "crap", then it can't be that for everyone.
 
If your quality standards allow objective crap to stay on the site, that's not the standards that SO foundation was created with.
Or to put it in Shog apple's analogy: anything that is not an apple when one is asked for an apple is crap.
 
@Braiam Did you read the linked post? It says not to remove attempts to answer :) Like "Answers that might answer the question but don't have any explanation attached to them" are not to be deleted :)
 
5:27 PM
@Braiam You paint a very broad brush with what you consider crap. The consensus on the site is that decisions as to deleting such answers are a 20k+ privilege, not something that should be done through the LQP review queue.
 
@Makyen Then why give reviewers the privilege at all?
Why don't we just go back to the mod queue with thousands of answers without off loading anything to the reviewers?
 
any Python folks can help me understand if stackoverflow.com/a/63455556/4826457 is rhetorical?
 
@Braiam So they can delete "I'm having this issue too. Any updates?"
 
@Scratte You really believe that the queue exist in a vacuum? Don't you know that the system invariably feeds the queue with short, no text answers? Why would SE do that if they didn't expect reviewers to do something about it?
 
@Braiam The catch is that LQP flags (and it becomes a LOT more noticeable as a mod) become a "This shouldn't be here" flag. I had a OP LQP flag his two answers because they weren't what he was looking for
 
5:33 PM
@Braiam Because reviewers are expected to follow the guidance that's provided on Meta, which defines a very narrow interpretation of what Very Low Quality and Not An Answer are.
 
That's what Undo was trying to get at. If an attempt at an answer is merely wrong it should be downvoted. If enough people with rep agree, delete it yourselves
 
@Makyen That narrowness is exclusive to SO. Which is mostly the source of all problems. SO can't unpaint itself from the wall if it doesn't recognize that it's on the wall.
@Machavity Nobody is objecting that. I'm objecting that crap answers (poor duplicate answers on the same question, answers that don't explain anything) should be kept on the site.
 
@Braiam You've picked "recommend deletion" on one of the first Answers on a post in that linked review.. It's not a new Answer.
 
People took that to the extreme to no answer "shall be deleted unless this absurdly narrow description is fulfilled", which Shog itself don't object either.
@Scratte I'm not discussing that review, I did what it's best considering context of the answer. If you have a problem, flag it.
One really should understand history to not repeat it. I recommend reading this question with answers by Jeff and Shog meta.stackexchange.com/a/103069/213575
 
Interesting.. I think things changed a bit since 2011
 
5:41 PM
Nope, the help center has exactly the same text as it did back then :)
Which is a testament of how well thorough out was at the time.
 
@Braiam Then make a MSO question to try to sway people's opinion in general. Arguing it in here isn't where you need to be making arguments if you want things to actually change. I'm not saying that you can't discuss it in here. I'm saying that the way which you present arguments is detrimental to users who are attempting to learn how the site works. You tend to present your opinions as established fact, even when your opinions are directly opposed to the current consensus.
That will tend to result in users, who don't understand that and who follow what you advocate, running up against negative repercussions as the system disagrees with your opinion. It would be better if you present things more clearly as your opinion, rather than as established fact or policy.
4
 
And sometimes you should keep the bad answers, if for no other reason than to serve as a warning to others
 
@Makyen That would only happen with political will, political will that I don't have. If Shog, Thinkerbell, Cajita, or Cody propose it, I could see it succeed, otherwise the mere institutional inertia will kill that proposal.
 
Wait.. you seem to be saying that you understand what the consensus actually is. And that it's different from what you just said it was.
 
@Machavity Oh no... that's something I learned the hard way not to do. There was someone that literally went to the button answer and broke their system on Ask Ubuntu. You may not be able to fix stupid, but you sure as heck don't give them a shot gun.
Remember, people would literally copy and paste anything posted on the internet, and you can be on the other end of that development process.
Heh, I was looking for the exact meta post about that event, but I actually just had to look at Unix & Linux for a example of deleting a dangerous answer
@Scratte No, I'm saying that the "consensus" is absurd because nobody really knows what they are advocating about.
If you separated that post into the specific issues, you would see that most things aren't well supported. The answers to that question attest to that.
 
@Braiam I know. I'm not confused. I'm not nobody :)
 
 
1 hour later…
dbc
8:22 PM
Regarding the cleanup, looks like there are questions regarding the XSD schema datatype xs:ID, for instance How to generate XML “xs:id” value in C#. I'd propose to retag those as if not already so tagged. I can update the retag guidance if people agree.
 
@dbc I can't find any other question with xsd stackoverflow.com/search?q=xsd+%5Bid%5D
 
dbc
8:37 PM
@Braiam You need to looks for [id] xml because they're not correctly tagged with . But actually there aren't that many, it seems, currently 21 matching that search.
 
@dbc I didn't look for [xsd][id] but xsd [id]. It's not even in the body of the question.
 
dbc
@Braiam Many times people just write "XML schema" instead of "XSD" specifically.
 
> This is the MISMO message standard if you are curious. It is an xml data transfer standard written by a bunch of non-technical banking executives. It is probably worse than you are thinking
Been there, it's horrible :D
@dbc That would be incredibly vague. I've found php questions that fulfill your criteria.
 
dbc
@Braiam I don't understand your reply. What I am saying is that questions about XSDs often don't use the word "xsd" anywhere inside the question. The only way to know that they are really about the XSD technology is to see that they are about XML and use XSD tags such as <xs:element ...>. For example How to annotate a JAXB element with type IDREFS?, which I just retagged.
 
@dbc That was a comment on a question.
 
8:54 PM
@Machavity I noticed your now deleted comment about 2700 flags. I think it's a case of mistakenly looking at a meta user account instead of the main user account.
 
9:20 PM
I now have the same amount of helpful flags as I have reputation. Sort of funny how things turn out :)
 
9:45 PM
@Dharman not seeing at first glance how that's an accurate dupe target
more likely the Q should've been closed as lacking MCVE details
 
@TylerH It's not. In PHP some users use dupe-hammer as a quick means of closing the question.
 
@Dharman that sounds like abuse that should be addressed
 
@Dharman The idea/desire to close questions singlehandedly is not a new one
The fact gold badge holders don't yet have such powers doesn't mean one should go around closing questions as dupes when they're not duplicates, however
 
10:08 PM
Odd situation in the CV queue. There is a proposed dupe in this comment to this question. However, the proposed dupe target is nearly six years more recent and, moreover, has an answer by the commentator (who presumably flagged for closure - there are no CVs showing).
... should we CV the newer question as a dupe of the older one?
 
@AdrianMole I saw that one earlier. The proposed dupe target is notably worse: compare the answers. I voted Leave Open.
 
@RyanM Sure - leave the older/better one open. But would a cv-pls on the other be in order?
 
@AdrianMole not necessarily
 
@AdrianMole Ah yeah, good question. That's trickier...they're at least very similar. The second one explicitly asks about settting the size in dp, which the first one isn't explicit about. But also, virtually all Android sizing involves dp at some point, and there is an answer that does include it... It wasn't a clear enough duplicate to me to go out of my way to CV it the other way, but I could see the argument.
 
the direction should be closing questions as dupes of the better one/one with better answers, regardless of age
Normally, older questions are better because they're more mature; they've had time to get lots of edits, more answers (which in turn have been updated with edits), etc.
 
10:17 PM
@TylerH in this case, the older one is also clearly better
 
but it's not too uncommon for a newer question to get asked in a way that's more broadly applicable
@RyanM then yes, the newer one should be closed as a dupe of the older one, probably
 
@TylerH I agree. But I also agree with @RyanM (albeit as a non-SME) that the older question is also the better one. As also with the answer.
 
10:36 PM
@jps It looks like this has been edited before being closed; can you re-check the question?
 
I'm out of votes. Off to Netflix then
 
@Dharman you did have votes until now??!!
 

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