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12:09 AM
@cigien Wouldn't it be nice, though, if we could actually do that? I heard at one point that a post becomes ineligible to be selected as an audit if it's ever been edited, so I threw an edit on that one. Not sure if it'll help. Recently, we've been getting a fair number of posts selected as audits that violate the criteria that I thought applied to selection of audits.
 
Could a RO delete this?
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, upon request
@tink @cigien I removed the resource request, which I'd advise others to have done as well. It would normally be something I/we would close as too broad, but since it's been bountied, I'd prefer to just let the bounty run. It's not causing any problems now that I can see. As others mentioned, you can raise a mod flag to get bountied questions closed.
(Ah, you all reached that conclusion without me. Splendid.)
Still, removing the resource request is highly advisable. It was a throwaway addition to the question anyway.
 
@tripleee Can you recheck that request, and see if what the OP has added regarding the error message is sufficient for that question to be answered?
@E_net4seespatterns Yes, a moderator flag. If you think the answer clearly adds value, then I'm open to a flag on it. Especially if you think it was deleted in bad faith. The license allows us to host content, even if the original poster changes their mind. Beware that other mods may feel differently about how they handle such flags, though. You can, of course, ping me about it.
 
12:30 AM
 
@CodyGray =}
 
1:26 AM
@CodyGray Queen picks them up in the making.
Ohh.. and. I see my comments were flagged on that post and deleted :D So it shouldn't be too tricky to work out what post that was. I have a guess about how that came about.
 
1:55 AM
@CodyGray Yes, it would be nice to have a better mechanism to remove audits. Even just knowing if editing a post actually disqualifies it would be nice. The interesting question is what the criteria are that make posts suitable as audits. There does appear to be some disagreement on this.
For example Makyen seems unsure whether these are actually bad audits. In fact, they addressed this very post earlier today in CHQ, and the argument, IIUC, is that there is enough evidence in the post for it to be clear that the system thinks it's spam. This does allow one to pass the audit, and does ensure that one is paying attention in the review queue.
However, it's not clear to me that that makes sure one is paying attention to the right thing. If the goal is simply to teach reviewers to pass audits, then this post is fine. But if the goal is to teach reviewers to identify real spam, then this post fails at that. Without already knowing full well that this is spam, I cannot identify it as such, and in isolation, I would not call that spam.
In fact, if a reviewer were treating the post as if they saw it in the wild, IMO the correct thing to do would be to not flag it. More consensus on what review audits are supposed to teach will probably be required before a discussion of the exact mechanisms by which audits are added/removed. I think I'd prefer if audits were meant to teach one to identify spam, but I don't know for sure.
Note also that despite my previously stated intention, I have not found the review queues to be very interesting, and so I have still not been visiting the queues at all. While it's been pointed out that that doesn't prevent me from having an opinion on the matter, it's worth pointing out that my views on this are not as well-informed as they could be. Also, I've not done much research about this on meta, and all I can gather is that there seems to be general confusion about the whole thing.
 
@cigien Audits are supposed to teach how to use review tools correctly.
 
@Braiam How do I tell if I'm using the review tools correctly? e.g. if I never fail audits, is that a good thing?
 
@cigien When the end result is a better corpus of content. If the audits lead people to leave bad content/remove good content, then they aren't good audits.
 
2:47 AM
I have to delete it, but it's still so funny...
"I have a baked potato for a hippocampus" :-) — romainl 3 hours ago
 
@Machavity And people wonder why vim users are crazy...
 
@Machavity Why do you have to delete that? :( It's very nice. Also, why did you link to that other user? I don't get it.
 
@cigien Other user?
 
@Machavity You linked to the baked potato post. And also to romainl.
 
@cigien Side effect of linking to the comment itself
 
2:52 AM
@cigien It's called oneboxing.
You get the content and metadata about the content.
 
@Braiam Huh, I had no idea :p Thank you.
@Braiam I'm having difficulty in applying this metric, at least to this post. Can you share whether you think this is a good/bad audit, and why?
 
@cigien I can't see the audit, so I don't know :D
 
@Machavity Ok, so in this case, there was a comment by that user that you deleted?
 
@cigien Yes
In that case, they were quoting the post itself. It's not really useful as a comment
 
@Machavity Ok, I get it now. Thanks.
@Machavity Still funny though :)
I thought you meant you were going to delete the answer itself at first.
@Braiam I'll look for it, and share a screenshot. Give me a sec.
 
3:00 AM
"Also I note you haven't accept a single answer to any of your questions. Are you familiar with how this site works? And that you should be accepting and upvoting answers people provide to your questions?".. why do high reputation users make these comments?
 
@Scratte They must like being flagged. See those in the queue a lot
 
@Machavity But nothing but just removing the comments is done, right?
 
@Scratte Grooming is important ...even if it will get purged as unnecessarily chatty.
 
Is it okay to ask users to add details here if they post a link-only answer where the link points to an answer on another SE site? Like this answer.
 
@Scratte Depends. Enough UU or HBA flags and you'll have a mod looking at your comment history
 
3:03 AM
@mickmackusa It's not unnecessary chatter. It's pressuring the Question author to vote and accept posts. I find it inappropriate.
 
@mickmackusa Yes, but, as written, it's antagonistic, rather than just educational.
 
@Yatin it's worse when they point to another page within SO stackoverflow.com/a/41721293/2943403
@Scratte Unnecessary? Okay, perhaps. Pressuring? I don't agree.
 
@mickmackusa they can't comment or close to vote...
only 11 rep...
 
@Makyen I don't know that it is antagonistic. I find it to be informative even if it is mildly opinionated. Some people don't take the tour and read the help pages. I don't fault this attempt to spread good voting habits.
@Yatin then I suppose they are simply denied from contributing to the page. Imagine how senselessly bloated SO would become if a valid answer merely pointed to another answer.
 
@mickmackusa I find it to be pressuring. They're informing the user that they've checked out their profile. They're not in any way letting the user know that both voting and accepting Answers on their posts is entirely voluntary.
Nobody "should be accepting and upvoting" anything.
 
3:10 AM
@Scratte that's fine, you are entitled to that opinion. I just have an opposing stance. New users simply don't know what veteran users have learned over the years. I find nothing abusive about extending wisdom. They aren't saying "you should upvote and accept my answer", they are just saying vote and accept. There is no mal-intent here.
Does it help researchers? No, so it is rightfully deleted. Will it help the user to become a better contributor to the success of SO? I think so, unicorn points motivate people.
 
So what do you think is going to happen now, huh? That user has Answered another of the Question author's posts. So now they have a choice, either do as suggested, or what.. see the Answers disappear? No more Answers from that user? What?
 
I don't have a crystal ball. If that user is so cranky and selfish to withhold their insights from the world just to spite the user, then the core problem is with the commenter/veteran.
Some people are simply here to share (versus farm rep), these people are not motivated by rep and that's a good thing on the other hand, some people want to unlock privileges and feel like their contributions are being valued, these people hunger for points.
 
Well. The next comment is from the author saying "I'm sorry, I didn't have time to check your Answers".. and now, I find no Answers on the other posts.
 
Every time we celebrate people who break a million rep, we are further embedding the attitude that rep is the goal. I would like us to more often celebrate people that are doing great curation, aren't behaving like desperate FGITW users, and demonstrate that closing closable questions is better than answering closable questions.
 
3:26 AM
Those meta posts are highly opvoted and have a lot of views.
 
I know they do -- part of the problem.
 
They have higher scores than good feature-requests. But they're also easy posts. You don't have to read a long post and you don't even have to figure out what your opinion is.
 
Compare to that other meta page where that one user did an obscene number of close reviews (300,000?), burned out, and quit SO? Doesn't paint a great picture does it?
 
And it's not like any critique gets to stay on them. I remember one where lots of comments were deleted.
But even if one does Answer duplicate posts. It still takes some dedication to reach that amount of reputation.
 
@Braiam Sorry, got distracted. Here's the image JeremyCaney shared. The answer answers the question, the links are legit, and there's no discernable affiliation as far as I'm aware. I'd like to know what you think about it as an audit.
 
3:34 AM
@Scratte I don't disagree with you there. It is a monumental effort to gain that much rep. Perhaps the statistic should be "seasoned" with other favorable metrics such as close votes/flags, reviews, never-banned, etc. So that the message is not "Grab as much rep as you can, and we'll celebrate you."
 
@mickmackusa It'll wear off soon enough though. The first few will be celebrated, but then it'll be "Yeah ok.. others have done that too" :)
But looking at our average reputation increase, it'll take me 500 years and you only 250 years to get there :D
 
Maybe I'm too negative/critical/pessimistic, but I can spend half of a day reading questions and not find 20 answerable questions (because they are duplicates or otherwise off-topic). So I question folks that are answering 30 or more questions per day ...I wonder how many of those should have been answered.
 
@cigien An answer followed by links to random unrelated questions on an unrelated platform seems like a perfectly fine audit to me, much like someone linking unrelated blogposts would be.
 
Some tags are so messy at this point that cleaning them up would be a monumental effort. The titles are non-descriptive and finding a duplicate is impossible even if there are thousands.
 
(I know I'm not Braiam)
 
3:39 AM
@RyanM Hmmm... Braiam is very similar to B Ryan M... a sockpuppet perhaps? :)
 
:O
 
@RyanM Well, don't feel too bad about it ;)
 
So, what about identical usernames? Like.. @Nicks.. :D
 
@RyanM Do you have a link to this particular post? I distinctly remember seeing posts in this series where the links were actually related to the question. Maybe I'm imagining that?
 
@cigien I can't find it quickly, but the links seem randomly selected to me; it wouldn't surprise me if some happened to be related.
 
3:46 AM
@Yatin that actually looks like a poorly executed spam attempt to me; a non-working link to their website to boost it? :D
 
@RyanM Hopefully I'm not shifting the goalposts here, but would one of those posts where the links are related (maybe coincidentally) be a good/bad audit?
 
@cigien This search on metasmoke will give you 46 of the 80+ posts which were made on SO with this pattern of spam.
 
@tink I kinda suspected that too... I am looking into it..
 
@Scratte This is terrible! How am I supposed to know you're talking about me if you ping @Nicks instead?!? :)
 
It's my hack :) Next I'll be pinging @NicknNick ;)
 
3:56 AM
Given the season it should be @SaintNick :)
 
That may be my cousin ;)
 
@Makyen That's very useful thanks. I found the one that was an audit. I'll look through the others to see if there are any that match the corner cases I'm thinking of.
btw, there doesn't seem to be a way to tell if posts are used as audits, at least via metasmoke. Is there a way for regular users to even find that out?
 
@cigien You can look at the post's timeline, which will show a review entry.
 
@Makyen Oh of course, I knew that :( Silly question. All right, I'll investigate it a bit. Thank you.
 
@cigien Is that the correct post you linked to? That doesn't seem to have ever been used in an audit.
 
4:02 AM
@Scratte The answer was used as an audit. It's deleted, so you can't see it. Here's an image of it.
 
There's a proposed edit on the SD report that removes the website name. That seems a better approach than hammering as spam?
 
I rejected, it's spam in my eyes
 
After all, there was no attempt to make it a link, at least not in the version that survived the initial edit window.
 
@cigien Oh. You linked directly to a Question, which made me confused. Normally I just land on the Question, but can see that there was an Answer there from the url of the Answer :)
 
@Scratte Ah, you're right, linking to the answer would have made more sense. My bad.
 
4:05 AM
No worries. Thanks for the screen shot :)
 
@cigien I think if they were related, it'd be a much more questionable audit, since you'd have to pick out context that was likely no longer there due to being deleted as spam.
 
@RyanM Yeah, that was my reasoning. In this particular case, I think the audit is not terrible though. I'll see if I can find one where the links in the answer are reasonably related to the question, and the post was used as an audit. The question still stands, but it'd be much more fruitful to discuss it with a concrete audit to focus on.
 
@cigien Frankly, I'm not really sure how:
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Try to explore the new (blah blah blah)!
> [link]
> [link]
Isn't seen as spam.
It doesn't have any purpose other than to promote, and it makes it intent to be promotional quite clear.
 
@Makyen If that were the only content in the answer, then it's definitely spam. But there's a whole section of text above that, that looks pretty much like an answer.
 
@cigien True, there is a good disguise posted with each one.
 
4:21 AM
@Makyen Yes, and in the context of several such posts, the disguise is not fooling anyone. But just the single post on its own ... The disguise would fool me at least, I think. Am I being too lenient with posts that look spammy like that? I know what you mean by it feeling spammy, i'm just wary of pulling the trigger on those posts lightly.
 
@Yatin good man =}
 
4:39 AM
@CodyGray checked, thanks for the ping, but I still think that should be closed
 
4:49 AM
@cigien I could understand that if it was something like "You may find these links helpful: [link to related post] [link to related post]". I can even understand someone not being willing to pull the spam flag trigger on a single instance of one of these. However, it's enough such that someone should be going, at least, "that's weird, let me see what's going on here", or "that's weird, maybe I should being this to the attention of the moderators".
 
@Scratte I do not pay attention to Queen, so if that is to have any impact, you need to use it to inform you of when to raise a moderator flag.
 
@Makyen I agree that there's enough there that clicking "Looks OK", or something similar, is the wrong thing to do. If the purpose of an audit is to ensure that reviewers don't let fishy posts pass through, then it seems ok, even if the post is not necessarily identifiable as spam. I'm still not convinced that it's a good audit, so I think I'll join you on the fence, if that is still where you're sitting.
Looking at the phrasing of the additional text that shares links is a very good point. There's a fairly clear difference in intent between "Check this out...", and "This may also help...". I guess I've been using that indicator to some extent, but not consciously. I'll pay more attention to that from now on.
 
@cigien Yeah, that's true, but I think it's also dumb. You can of course open it in a new tab to confirm that it's an audit, but you should not have to do that in order to be reviewing correctly. And if he thinks that you can tell without doing that... No. That's looking at it through rose-colored glasses, knowing that it has already been noticed and deleted as spam, or at a minimum, knowing the history of other similar posts that have been removed as spam.
The typical moderator or even Charcoal user can tell, because they see a lot of spam and can detect patterns. But that's way too high of a standard to hold reviewers to.
@cigien I don't use them, either. Never did. Before becoming a moderator, almost every close vote and other curation/moderation action that I took was on posts that I came across organically during my normal usage of the site.
@Machavity Fortunately, the post itself contains the joke, so deleting the comment doesn't even cause anyone to miss a laugh.
@Scratte Part of the way you get high rep is by being obsessed with rep... Acceptance leads to a +15 reputation windfall, so people start demanding that.
Fun fact: we used to show "accept rate" as a metric on a user's card (the one in the blue box underneath all their posts). That led to outright street fights, so it got removed. Answerers were obsessed with it.
@cigien Yes... the issue here is that a great reviewer would want to edit the post to remove the "spammy"-looking signature. And... that would cause them to fail the audit. So, I think that it is still broken.
@tripleee Thanks for commenting on the question with an actionable request. I've closed it now.
@Makyen OK, I'll buy that: how? They can't see similar answers in the user's profile because they've been deleted already. So how is a reviewer to know that it is not more than "a single instance"?
 
5:33 AM
@CodyGray The post is already deleted. If the reviewer goes to the profile, they should know there's something up/wrong.
 
Seems like that is not the lesson we should be trying to teach reviewers. Now you're asking them to review based on the person, not based on the post.
Reviews shouldn't be an exercise in teaching people tricks.
 
@CodyGray I'm going to respond to the previous messages as well, but I don't agree with this point at least. I think audits should be calibrated for the average reviewer. If it means great reviewers as you put it, such as Charcoal regulars say, were to fail some audits as a result of this calibration, I think that's a trade-off worth making.
 
@cigien Err, perhaps I was unclear. A mediocre reviewer would probably fail the audit because they'd just say "Looks OK". A good reviewer would be on the lookout for audits and would open the post in a new window just to check, which would alert them that it was, in fact, an audit.
A great reviewer would trust their own instincts, and would notice that the post contained some spammy-looking signature, so they'd just go to edit it out, preserving value where possible and not pawning off curation tasks on others when they can solve the problem themselves, directly.
The problem is, that so-called "great" reviewer would still fail the audit, even though they're basically doing everything that we would expect a great reviewer to do. So, I'm saying, that's broken.
Oh, I just realized I might be wrong, though. Making an edit would fail a false-positive audit, but probably wouldn't fail a true-positive.
 
@CodyGray Not for nothing, but the fact that highly experienced users such as you and Makyen disagree on whether this is a reasonable audit by itself discounts it as an audit in my opinion.
 
Yes.
I think audits need to be very obvious.
They should not require extensive research. They should be obvious from looking at the content of the post.
 
5:49 AM
I see what you mean about rose-colored glasses. I've been mucking around in Charcoal for a week, and already that post would have given me a funny feeling. In a month, I think I would be more in Makyen's camp, and feel that it is obvious from the contents of the post that something untoward is going on.
 
Which is great. That'll make you a better reviewer, and probably set you up someday to be a good moderator, should you choose to do so.
But that level of expertise shouldn't be required of every single reviewer.
 
@CodyGray Do you feel this has affected your view on how the review queues should work? And what content should be in there? I find it hard to know what they should look like when I don't really visit them much myself.
 
Not really.
This is getting weird, but... I agree with Braiam. One of the primary purposes of review audits is to train users how to be better reviewers. Another, possibly the primary purpose, is to catch robo-reviewers.
I don't really have to experience it personally in order to understand how non-obvious audits can be counter-productive on multiple levels.
 
I mean there's a balance to be struck, right? If they're too obvious they serve no purpose.
Poor Braiam. When people agree with them, they do so begrudgingly, or seem surprised :(
 
6:07 AM
His opinions aren't always popular. He and I have disagreed many times (particularly over tags/burnination), to the point it almost became a meme. Of course, that doesn't diminish the fact that I respect his opinion and appreciate when he argues it.
@cigien You would think, but no. People still regularly fail the obvious ones.
 
@CodyGray Ah, I wan't aware of, or had forgotten, that context. Thanks.
 
You were probably not around.
And certainly not active on Meta.
 
No, I almost definitely wasn't. I've been in this room for a few months, and on meta for even less.
@CodyGray Well, in that case, if the obvious ones are catching the reviewers who are meant to be caught, then the quantity of tricky ones could be reduced I guess.
Not that I know what that ratio is, of course.
 
There shouldn't be "tricky" ones at all.
I wouldn't mind having some that are known to catch bad reviewers, like "how to" questions that don't need to be closed, or short answers that contain a link but aren't link-only/NAA.
 
Hmm, I don't know, makes for fun meta posts ;)
 
6:13 AM
If I could, I'd have nominated this and this as audits.
And plenty of others I come across while reviewing flags.
Note that these do not violate my primary assumption, that the problems with the post should be immediately obvious from looking at its text within the review queues, without the need to go to extra pages and/or do extra research.
Ironically, I hold that position despite the fact that, when I do perform reviews, I always open in a new tab, because I hate seeing the slightly different view of the post that the review queues present me. I want to see it in its normal habitat that I'm used to when browsing the site. I can work more efficiently there, with less cognitive friction.
 
I take it there's no consensus on this, as I'm aware of several members in this room who've assured me that one is supposed to follow the links when reviewing. "That's what the links are for" has been said on more than one ocassion.
 
That's the argument people resort to in defense of non-obvious audits.
People complain about failing a non-obvious audit, and instead of saying, "Yeah, the audit system is somewhat broken; sorry for the frustration, but here's a workaround that will prevent you from being tripped up again in the future," they present it as if the system is fine and you are expected to use the workaround.
 
@CodyGray But, it's something we're wanting people to do when reviewing, or if they don't want to, then "skip". Why should not an audit rely on that?
 
What is? Opening the post in a new tab? Heck no. If that were what we wanted people to do when reviewing, then we wouldn't have a special review queue interface. It'd just be a link to the post in context.
I personally would prefer that, and it's the only way I would ever review anything, but obviously that is not the intention.
 
@CodyGray We were talking about following links.
 
6:22 AM
I'm confused.
Normal links in the body text of the post? No, following those shouldn't be required, either. I certainly don't follow unknown links in posts.
 
I'm sorry, when I said "follow links" I didn't mean links in posts, I meant " Opening the post in a new tab".
 
OK. Again, if we wanted people to do that, then we wouldn't have designed a special review queue interface that extracts the post and shows it in a dedicated viewer. Instead, the review queue interface would just be a list of links to the posts.
That is very obviously not the system's intention for reviewers.
 
I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing, I was just clarifying the terms.
 
It is just a workaround that reviewers have developed, a fairly tried-and-true method for passing audits.
And, arguably, fine. I mean, like I said, it's what I do all the time anyway and strongly prefer. And, of course, it results in passing the audit. And it does no harm to the quality of the review, perhaps making it even better. So it's not necessarily bad behavior that we're training people in.
Yet, it clearly isn't the expectation, so audits that require it are bad audits.
It's just like when reviewing NAA flags, moderators don't scour the entire Internet to see if the answer might have been plagiarized from somewhere. Nor do we run the code in a development environment to ensure that it solves the problem described in the question.
A moderator who chose to do so wouldn't be doing anything wrong or bad. Those are all things that could be done, and by doing so would obviously increase the accuracy with which we dispense unwanted garbage from the site, but it's far too much to ask, and we simply don't do it. It's not the standard, nor is it the expectation.
If you want to note non-obvious problems, you're expected to raise a custom moderator flag.
 
@CodyGray Reviewing well sometimes requires users to get more context (even when not an audit). Part of getting more context can be going to the post on the question page. The fact that it also tends to discover audits is secondary.
 
6:28 AM
I like having that context. I personally cannot review without it. But, again, clearly this was not the intention when the review queues were designed. And if it is the intention or expectation, then the review queues should be redesigned to make it obvious that that is the intention. Currently, while a link is available, it's tiny, hidden, and off to the side.
@cigien I meant diamond moderator. See previous message.
 
Oops, makes sense now. I got confused.
@CodyGray Would you be happy if the expectation was that one should open the post in a new tab? And that expectation was made clear to reviewers. IIUC, that addresses most of your issues?
 
@cigien I suppose that would be a good start. I would ask why, though. The review queue already attempts to present the context that it deems necessary. If all context were necessary, why would everything not be presented in the review queue?
Also... part of the idea of audits is that the queues fake the details.
If you were expected to open it in a new tab, then it would be immediately obvious that the review queue view is attempting to fake you out. This would, yes, make audits trivially obvious. It would also make them essentially useless.
So, again, the whole design of the review queues is arguing against this point.
Too many people on Meta don't want to admit or agree that an audit is a bad audit. So they come up with how they would have passed it, and then defend the audit as fine on that basis, simply that it could be passed.
The conclusion is always obvious in retrospect.
 
The why is just my usual reason: path of least resistance. It would only require a bit of rewrite to the reviewers guidance. The other options would require serious work to the UI. But it would render audits somewhat useless, so a non-starter I guess.
 
@cigien Nobody reads the guidance, so that's kind of a non-starter, too. Especially as long as the interface is suggesting the opposite.
A better option is also a simpler option: give moderators the ability to add and remove audits from the system.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, I've seen some of the 20-20 hindsight arguments on meta about this. Quite amusing :)
 
6:41 AM
@karel Technically, that has to be closed first, before it can be deleted, so that should have been a cv-pls request. In this case, it happened anyway because a moderator saw it.
@cigien They often strike me as Stockholm syndrome-inspired.
 
@CodyGray That is in fact the idea that started this discussion today, and that was my initial inclination as well. However, seeing the difference in opinions between you and Makyen, and both with reasoned arguments, that's going to be a problem.
There are another 20-ish mods, right? Which means another 30 opinions. Y'all will all be stepping on each other's toes adding/removing audits, and generally making a pig's breakfast of the whole thing. It would be premature to do that without a clearer sense of what audits are supposed to achieve first.
@CodyGray Ha, indeed. Stackholm syndrome perhaps ;)
 
Counter-point: if mods had the ability to choose audits, then coming to a conclusion about what audits should be chosen would become a useful way to spend time and could/would then be done. At the moment, it's just an exercise in futility, because we don't actually control anything and can't do anything about it.
All we can do at this point is give people advice on what to expect and how to improve their odds of passing, thereby making the overall experience less frustrating.
 
That is a valid counter-point. I suppose that would come down to how easy it is for y'all mods to agree about things. Something I have no clue about.
Yeah, all the meta posts re bad audits are pointless as far as I can tell. Fun sure, but mostly pointless.
 
6:58 AM
@cigien They don't seem fun to me.
 
@cigien No, most have a point: The post ends up being removed as an audit. Often this is something the person could have done themselves, but some of the time requires a moderator. Note that removing a post from being an audit isn't something which is done directly. It's done by changing the characteristics of the post so it no longer qualifies for the automatic criteria.
 
Yes, a single downvote removes a false-positive audit.
 
@Makyen That is true. But the couple of times I've had an issue with audits, I've mentioned it in here, and it's been dealt with painlessly. Making a separate meta for each potentially bad audit seems inefficient to me. Although, it is the most reasonable mechanism we have to get consensus. Pointless was the wrong choice of words, sorry about that.
 
@cigien I'll quite agree that such a meta post is ... significantly more effort for the user and community than needs/should be expended.
 
This point has been raised, too. There should be a "No, I do not understand this audit" button.
 
7:06 AM
@CodyGray The button would be in the review queue? Where would that feedback be sent? An automatic meta post, a chat-room?
 
After you failed an audit. Neither of those places. Perhaps escalated for a moderator to review.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, but that would be reasonable.
I must admit that I am quite frustrated that SO has consistently choosen to not spend even small amounts of developer time in order to save thousands, if not millions, of person-hours for their users.
 
Yes
I used to argue this with Shog9, even though he was not the responsible party. My issue with it is that UX failures in the review queues are driving away precisely the type of users we should be seeking to keep and cultivate.
 
YES!
 
Ah, I see I found another member of the chorus.
 
7:18 AM
@Makyen I know I can probably look this up, but do you visit the review queues? What about before you were a mod?
 
Would you consider this NAA stackoverflow.com/a/65301358/2359227 ?
 
I keep thinking that SE is in favour of more content, not better content. Literally quantity over quality. At least recently, that is. Not a lot of features are given for better curation. When a feature does help curation/quality (e.g., question wizard) it also tends to come with the expectation for more content to result from it.
 
@TomerShetah Yes.
@VLAZ Yes.
More specifically, though, the company is interested in increasing engagement. It's believed intuitively that the ability to post content will lead to increased engagement by users.
 
@CodyGray Thanks 😊
 
But I believe there are other ways to increase engagement, which don't have to trade off with content quality.
 
7:22 AM
@CodyGray now the question is how do we make you part of SE management.
 
@VLAZ Twitter?
 
Perfect! I'll go register now and tweetbook your instatiktoks.
That's what you do, right?
 
Sounds right.
I think you might have to snap something. Maybe your fingers?
I don't really know how it works.
 
@cigien I've done only about 6.2k+ reviews. I've been substantially more active on close-votes (41k+) and feedbacks for SD (55k+). I've more-or-less done substantially more close-votes reviews than my review total indicates. Basically, I found the review interface to be not very effective, so used a userscript which allows more efficient evaluation of questions, but using it does not count as actual reviews.
@cigien As far as recently, no, I've done very little in the review queues since becoming a moderator.
I have, on the other hand, routinely handled flags in the mod-flag review interface (although, far fewer than some moderators). There are, frustratingly, some things I really don't like about it. My primary issue is that I find I end up duplicating the work of other moderators, because the interface doesn't keep the list of active flags "live" (i.e. you have to fully reload the page to find out if another moderator has handled any of the flags you're looking at).
I plan to at least partially fix that with a userscript, but I haven't written it, yet.
 
7:46 AM
@Makyen Only 6.2k+? All of that sounds like a lot. Anyway, it answers my question about how much your views are informed by participation in review queues quite conclusively :) Thank you.
@Makyen How does "duplicating" work if 2 mods make different decisions? Does the latest decision take effect? Or does the second mod's decision simply not apply?
 
@cigien Well, there are people in here that have 5x to 10x that number of reviews, just in the Close Vote review queue. :;
 
@cigien First decision is the only one that matters. Second one is silently ignored. Mods stomp on each others' hands sometimes, especially when the queue is small.
 
@cigien Once a flag is handled, it's not possible to change it's state, other than spam or rude/abusive flags, which can be disputed.
 
@Makyen Wow. I don't even have a stewards badge yet. Not that I care about the badge.
Ah, I guess that's partly why y'all seem to have organically sorted yourselves into handling different kinds of flags?
 
@cigien It's a very large amount of time and effort to get into those ranges. Don't feel that you need to get to any particular point. You should do what you feel is right for yourself.
 
7:54 AM
@cigien I'm not sure that we have, really.
 
@Makyen I understand. Those are not goals I have actually. I'm just admiring the dedication, and hard work some people have put into working the queues.
 
@cigien I agree with Cody, there are tendencies, but there's not any real separation.
 
RO, please bin my above this request.
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
We used to have more mods that specialized in chat over handling flags. But now, not so much.
I tend to moderate Meta more heavily than others, but handle fewer flags on the main site. That's about as specialized as it gets at the moment, I think.
That, and some mods preferentially clear out comment flags, while others... kinda ignore them unless there's nothing else pressing.
 
8:03 AM
Ah, so no method to the madness in fact? I suspected as much ;)
 
Would be kinda weird, actually, to have mods who specialized in NAA flags, those who specialized in spam flags, etc.
 
Why is that? Seems efficient to me.
 
Note that we do almost always focus on a single queue when handling flags. We don't switch around. That's where you get the efficiency gains: you can get into a single mindset.
But always specializing in a single queue type? That doesn't get you a lot. In fact, if anything, I think it'd get you myopic mods.
Which, despite the alliteration, is not all that cool.
 
Well, the NAA flags do tend to be cleared out relatively often. I expect that's because a large number of them are very quick to evaluate.
 
Hmm, only specializing in one kind of flag would have issues, I see that.
 
8:08 AM
Yeah, when a mod logs on, it's common for them to go through the NAA flags.
 
Also, NAA are probably the content that one would want to get rid of the fastest, right? Not counting Spam/R/A.
 
Perhaps harassment/abuse comment flags.
Those are fairly rare, though, and also quick to handle.
 
Ah, didn't even think of those :p
 
Yeah, those are a high priority, as are spam/R/A.
@cigien I agree, the amount of work and dedication they have shown is admirable.
 
Well, thanks a lot for the conversation. Learned a ton as usual. Off to bed for a few hours, things are starting to look blurry. Rene looks like a regular flower now, so that can't be a good sign ;)
 
8:18 AM
:) o/
 
8:44 AM
I found a user who makes somewhat dubious edits. I checked the last 15 and most had a summary of: "Formatting "buzzwords"". The changes often consist of making some words bold or code formatted. Names and terms but it's not very consistent. The worst one I found is probably this one. "IE11" is bolded and "CSS", "flexbox", "div heights", as well as the a fullstop (literally a "." at the end of a sentence) are formatted as code.
What's the procedure here? Flag a post that had an edit and explain my concerns about the user who made these edits?
 
@VLAZ sounds like a plan
 
8:58 AM
@VLAZ Yes, those are terrible edits. Raise a moderator flag, link to some of the affected posts, mention it's a clear pattern, and ask that a moderator talk to the user and put a stop to these harmful edits.
 
Thanks. I'm collecting the links and correcting some of the edits in the process.
 
@IslamElshobokshy That doesn't seem to me like a question that is primarily opinion-based. In particular, it seems that it can be objectively answered, giving reasons, why it is or is not a good idea. In fact, someone has posted just such an answer. Why do you think that question is a bad fit for our Q&A format?
 
jps
9:14 AM
Good morning
 
Yet to be decided ...
 
jps
How should this answer be handled? It doesn't answer the question and links to an alternative product isntead. NaN? Spam?
 
@jps close the question instead; licensing questions are off-topic
 
Flagged. The mod message text box is rather limited, though. I always thought it should be bigger. I added few links to edits and each is nearly 60 characters. I think expanding it to 1000 characters at least should be good. I appreciate that reports shouldn't be walls of text but right now it seems that sometimes you cannot go into enough details in the message.
 
jps
@tripleee thanks, I did, but you've benn faster
 
9:19 AM
@jps Why do you think it's an alternate product? It seems like the same thing the question is asking about to me.
@VLAZ Yeah, use a Pastebin or Gist if you need to add more links than will fit.
 
@CodyGray Ah, OK. I tend to prefer using direct links whenever possible but if mods are OK with something like dumping links in a pastebin and linking to that, I'll keep it in mind for the future.
 
@VLAZ Yes, direct links are strongly preferred. But if it just doesn't fit.... you gotta do what you gotta do.
 
jps
@CodyGray the OP asks about Identityserver4, the answer says "The new Duende IdentityServer" (actually I didn't bother clicking on the link)
doesn't that sound like something different?
 
No. "4" sounds like the version, and "Duende" sounds like the company name.
Based on the GitHub repo that the OP links to, it's definitely the same.
Hilariously, the GitHub repo that the OP links to is the exact same thing that the answer quotes from. It's the very first paragraph at the top of the README.md...
 
jps
@CodyGray alright, missed that part. Never heard about "Duende"
thanks
 
9:25 AM
@CodyGray Just for completeness, the OP links to the same repo that can be found in the [identityserver4] repo description.
 
Me neither.
 
jps
ok, it's just 10 weeks old now
 
jps
9:58 AM
@tripleee and totally messed up with the pictures and links
 
Would you consider this NAA? stackoverflow.com/a/65296391/2359227
 
With reference to above SD report, should actions like this be flagged (custom flag for moderator) for deleted question by owner? We cannot know if OP vandalized any other of their self posts. That one question is not a problem but we do not know if this is their habit.
 
@AmitJoshi You don't have to, but I wouldn't have any problem with such flags. Could be very useful. In this case, nothing to worry about, though.
@TomerShetah Yes. It doesn't provide a solution, just a "me too".
@AmitJoshi Phrasing of the flag message is probably important. Something like: "This user just vandalized their question. I cannot see if they might have vandalized other questions by self-deleting. Please check and see if any damage needs to be reverted."
 
10:23 AM
@Yatin (recently active; NAA deleted 1 hour ago)
 
11:16 AM
bunch of lightning fast upvotes to this (rather poor) question and its answers (one code-only, another link-only) "look like a beginning of a new beautiful friendship". I mean, like seeding a voting ring
 
I thought lightning-fast upvotes were about par for the course in C#.
 
11:40 AM
@cigien Technically, it's not even an answer, since it doesn't demonstrate how to do what it means to do, unlike the source material docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sql/connect/node-js/…
BTW, I don't understand how they got from steps to cloths.
If there should be links on the answer, they should be to MS's guide.
 
11:59 AM
@Dharman I presume you wanted it rejected?
 
Yes, we do not translate questions
 
12:19 PM
@Dharman that's what I put in the "causes harm" box...
 
12:48 PM
 
@CodyGray What kind of engagement? The ability to post content will probably lead to more content. But I'm not entirely sure that being able to post leads to more curation or people flagging stuff. But I've heard users say that once they start curating, it takes time away from posting content.
 
1:47 PM
This answer contains a rather rude rant insulting a mod. I can't directly edit it.
 
@JeanneDark I removed the rant bit.
 
@JeanneDark The answer is a repost of a deleted answer by the same user. The rant is appended to the previous content.
 
Thank you!
 
@VLAZ Oh - didn't spot that. Should that get a mod flag?
 
I'm wondering as well. It seems to have been deleted as a result of a NAA last time. The rant really crossed the line but at its heart was still the same NAA.
 
1:51 PM
I'll put a custom flag on it. Maybe I'm due a declined?
 
I wasn't sure if it was NAA. You could reformulate it maybe as try this and that etc.
 
I put in a mod flag. It won't take the mods much effort to figure out what to do, I think.
... especially if Sam gets to handle it. ;)
 
@JeanneDark Yeah, I'm bad with the rhetorical question-answers. Still, this one isn't even specific, it's guesses in the dark. Given the range of the guesses, I suspect the whole question should have been closed as unclear...but I'm not really an expert there.
@AdrianMole Quick, shine the Sam symbol in the sky!
 
The point here is that there is nothing added to the previous post (other than the abuse); so that warrants a custom flag, IMHO. (user is far from new). I'll leave it up to the Diamond Geezers as to what to do about it.
 
Luckily, I know of at least one mod who is a PHP expert. The question may need debugging details.
 
2:02 PM
Those rhetorical questions in Answers are a little annoying in general. It's like people are not wanting to be assertive and just making a wild guess. Then of course hoping their guess is the correct one.
 
2:14 PM
@Scratte Shouldn't you have stated that as a rhetorical question?
2
 
2:24 PM
thoughts on ? seems like it was burninated once upon a time meta.stackexchange.com/questions/131138/… ...
 
@SurajRao I've seen this tag a few times recently. Didn't look into it but it always felt off. It was poorly employed when I saw it and I wasn't sure if there even is value in it. Since it was burninated once, I'd definitely agree for Trogdor to revisit it.
Seems like the oldest question that has the tag is from 9 days ago - the 6th of December. It's possible that's the time it was re-introduced. Unless there is an earlier usage that isn't around any more.
 
Maybe a comment on the Meta.SE question will suffice - that will, at least, ping animuson. (Or you could try on the first answer - not sure if Jeff responds to pings, these days.)
 
There are 29 questions using the tag. Realistically a single person can clean it up. I skimmed the questions. All but two are from really low rep users. I don't like stereotyping but low rep users sometimes add any tag that sounds remotely similar (ah, [design-patterns] on [regex] questions...)
One question seems like it actually uses correctly. For as much as it can be correct. On the other hand, I don't see the question suffering from losing the tag.
 
2:48 PM
@VLAZ Using it correctly is a misleading criteria, since it would allow as a valid tag.
 
@AdrianMole Jeff used to respond but mostly by nuking your account ...
 
hehe
 

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