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10:06 PM
No matter how I look at it, I really just can't convince myself that is a duplicate of either of the questions you mentioned.
It's funny, though. You are now going to think I'm one of those "overzealous duplicate closure" people.
 
Where's the real Cody Gray? This one's a duplicate.
 
@CodyGray Even ignoring the fact that "why a piece of code doesn't work" is because "the standard says so, this answer covers both why the code doesn't work and shows fixes as well, all of which directly solves the OP's problem.
And for the other one, I don't see what the attempted conversion to int comes in. The OP is having issues with conversion from a Person* to a Person, and this answer covers that, and solves the OP's problem. I have no doubts about both of duplicate targets being valid.
 
Read the error message.
 
@AdrianMole ..wait for it ;)
 
I'm not disputing that the answer can be found somewhere in there. But it can also be found in the documentation and a zillion other places.
I believe you are connecting more dots than duplicate closures should require.
 
10:11 PM
Now, where's that Meta.SE link about duplicates? ... Somebody posted it here only a day or two ago, IIRC.
 
@CodyGray I did, and the OP fixed the error based on my comment, which is what the target says. Also, fwiw see the answer the OP accepted. Are you suggesting they would have had trouble figuring that out from the target?
 
Yes.
I would have.
When I read the questions you proposed the first time, I didn't even see the connection.
It's not an exact duplicate.
This isn't a "close as related" feature.
 
@AdrianMole You mean this one with a link to an Answer to How should duplicate questions be handled?
 
@Scratte Excellent - thanks! I knew it was something to do with Jeff and/or Joel.
 
For the record, I'm in the Atwood camp when it comes to judging duplicates, but the Spolsky camp when it comes to "can a question be too simple?".
 
10:15 PM
@CodyGray Certainly possible. However, I might be making lots of incorrect dupe closures then. I definitely close as dupes questions where the OP has to take even more effort to "connect the dots" as you put it.
 
The metric isn't necessarily the OP, but rather "a reasonably competent C++ programmer".
This is because it's not our problem if some specific OP happens to need a whole tutorial.
I'm imagining an answer to that question that I simply do not have the time to write right now. It would say something like, "The root cause of this error is the following: ... The reason this is not allowed by the standard is because [summary + link]. You can fix it in your code by simply doing ..."
Before the question was edited, the answer would also need to deal with that other error message, explaining what it meant, how it was relevant to the code, and linking to the other semi-canonical question as a reference.
 
@CodyGray I'll try to look for targets that fulfill your criteria as I understand them currently, but assuming appropriate targets exist for both errors, does a combination closure work? Or does it still need a custom answer?
 
@cigien I really don't like "combination" closures, as you describe them.
I'm quite shocked to see Makyen apparently recommending them.
If someone has two or three different problems, then that doesn't make the question a duplicate of two or three different questions...
It might make the question too broad, of course.
 
@CodyGray Shocked is strong. They gave their reasons for it, and I think the reasons have a lot of merit.
 
But if it's not too broad, it needs to be answered with something that connects the dots together.
@cigien Yeah, no. It's not strong. It's really not strong enough.
It's a major shift in an understanding of the duplicate system as it's existed on this site for almost a decade.
 
10:25 PM
@cigien I think that if someone searching and finding a post with the right criteria (usually the title, but also parts of the body) can find and use an answer easily by looking at the duplicate, then it's a duplicate. If they cannot, then it's not. I've landed on very strange, to my search, posts when searching that turned out to be duplicate targets. It's a little irritating when the duplicate is exactly my issue.
 
@CodyGray Ok, could you review the combination closure Makyen made? They're not a C++ SME as far as I'm aware, so they may have just taken my word for it, but I doubt it.
I would feel bad for throwing Makyen under the bus like this, but they is a mod so I'm sure they can take it ;)
 
Hmm, complicated.
I disagree with the logic for that "compound" closure. Like, straight up. No exceptions, no complications.
However, I don't think that the integer division problem is apropos to the question as posed, so I think that is a duplicate of this.
The integer division problem seems to be "and another thing" tacked on at the end. If anything, I would have edited the question to refocus it, and then closed it as a duplicate.
 
@CodyGray I'm confused. You wouldn't make a combination closure, but you would edit out one of the OP's bugs and close it as a dupe of a single target instead?
 
Yeah, that combination closure is a total mess.
 
To add to my previous comment, why is the integer division bug not apropos per se? The multiple conditions one is equally relevant, as far as I can tell. Why not edit that out instead, and close with the division target?
 
10:32 PM
As I read the title, they're not asking about integer division. They're asking about the string comparison.
But maybe I'm misinterpreting. In that case, still combination duplicate closure is wrong. Either answer the question, or close it as being too broad because it involves multiple distinct problems.
 
@CodyGray Hmm, so we expect the OP to know what the root cause of their bug is, and have it in the title?
 
?
Yeah
We expect people's titles to be representative of what they're asking
 
Representative of the symptom surely, and not the cause?
If they knew the cause, they'd be most of the way to fixing it.
 
Oh how I wish that were true!
Of the hundreds of problems I deal with in a typical day, I know the root cause of 90% of them. I still can't fix them.
 
10:35 PM
@CodyGray But you're still welcome to ask about the remaining 10% right? Even if you don't know the cause, and only know the symptom?
 
Well, yeah, sure, but if you describe the problem incorrectly, you're subject to getting an incorrect answer.
 
Ok, what does that have to do with the combination closure argument though? The OP's title is fine, they didn't know they have 2 bugs, and the targets address each of the bugs independently.
 
A question can't be a duplicate of two completely different, unrelated questions.
If there are dots that need to be connected in order for the answer to make sense, then it isn't a duplicate of that question. It's just related to that question, and you need to be posting an answer that connects those dots.
 
How to make this on-topic? stackoverflow.com/q/51442714/1839439
 
@Dharman How about that
 
10:41 PM
Normally when users disagree here, and they do that a lot, I weigh the merits of the arguments only. In this case, it appears 2 mods have diametrically opposite views. I'll still weigh what y'all are saying individually, but I will be asking Makyen what they think about your opinion. Hopefully, y'all will duke it out a bit, that would be fun :)
 
@cigien If they do 'duke it out' it surely won't be done here :-)
But do keep in mind moderators are people too; they are entitled to their own opinions and perspectives on how to moderate (to an extent)
 
Yeah, I mean, I definitely will ask him if you aren't going to (and...if I remember...and have time...)
I can count on one finger the number of times I've disagreed with Makyen.
So this is a bit mind-blowing to me.
 
@TylerH Thanks, but someohow it still looks to me like they are asking about the Chrome extension rather than how to achieve what they want.
 
@Dharman note they are using the phrase 'add on' to refer to a google scripts service feature rather than a google chrome extension
 
@TylerH Sure, I'm certainly not saying they have to agree, but it's always nice to see two sharp minds working things out, even if they end up agreeing to disagree. Or maybe especially in that case ;)
 
10:44 PM
it's a bit ambiguous I admit since other browsers do use the term 'add on' to refer to what Google refers to as 'extension'
 
@CodyGray Oh, I'll remember ;)
 
Y'all are getting about 10% of my focus and mental capacity at the moment, because that's all I have spare. So it's possible that I'm missing something. Makyen is usually more thorough.
 
@CodyGray I disagree with this; many times in , for example, a question will be asking 'how do I do X and Y', where there are separate canonical Q&As for X and Y. It seems wholly appropriate to me to close such questions as a dupe of those two, separate canonicals.
 
Oops wrong room
 
@TylerH Doesn't it say something that the system doesn't let you do that when you cast a close vote?
 
10:46 PM
Combining multiple things that have separate answers shouldn't be encouraged, in fact I'd say it runs afoul of the new 'too broad' description: (focus on asking one question, not two) [paraphrased]
@CodyGray Not sure what you mean? Tag SMEs can do that for duplicates.
 
@TylerH Well, that I agree with. That's why I said earlier that these types of questions might be better closed as "too broad".
 
(NB - I haven't read upward very much)
 
@CodyGray I don't want to give the impression that I'm relying solely on Makyen's argument to convince you. Their argument is the basis of my views for sure, but I have given it some thought. Maybe when you're giving about 40% of your attention, you'll see how wrong you are ;)
 
@TylerH Not really. A new feature has been recently added to allow adding additional duplicates to the list, but it's very restricted in who can use it, and it's still really meant for adding other questions that cover the same ground, not vastly different questions that answer other aspects of the original question.
 
@CodyGray Are you referring to the fact that gold tag badge holders can add additional duplicate targets? If so, that's been around for... quite a long time. If you're talking about something else, then I don't know what you're referring to.
 
10:49 PM
Is this a programming Question?
 
What is a "normal" user with close-vote privileges to do in these cases?
Yeah, that. It hasn't been around that long.
Maybe a year or two?
 
Are you aware that the system will automatically close a question as a duplicate of multiple targets if two users CV it as a dupe of different questions?
 
The duplicate closure system and norms of usage have been around far longer than that.
 
@Scratte Borderline
 
even if no gold badger is involved
 
10:50 PM
@TylerH Yes, of course. But... how is that an argument for what you're saying?
 
@CodyGray Vote to close as one target and leave a comment suggesting the other? Then a hammer fixes it themselves. Note that this is not a common problem, and would usually require an SME to spot the combination, and they would likely have a hammer.
 
You have to coordinate your efforts so that one person closes as a duplicate of question A, and another person closes as a duplicate of question B? Ugh. That just doesn't work.
 
You're saying it's not possible, but I'm listing examples of how it is both automatically possible and manually possible.
 
I'm saying you are abusing functionality for a purpose completely different from what it was intended for.
 
At any rate, however long the feature to add multiple targets has been around, I'd say at the point it was introduced, the norms have been different for the same amount of time. Because when you add new features, people can accomplish new things.
 
10:51 PM
Wow
Yeah, this is not at all how I see it
 
I would suggest disallowing this kind of thing would harm the entire point of the dupe system, which is to act as a signpost to the same content which already has an answer
 
Duplicates can't act as a proper signpost if there's more than one question in the list!
 
@CodyGray Well, it's only abuse if it's a problem. Otherwise it's just a fortuituous loophole :)
 
Duplicates are supposed to automatically redirect to the main question.
 
Using my example above, why restrict someone from only pointing an asker to the answer of how to do X when you could point them to X and to Y.
@CodyGray That's only for signed out users AFAIK
 
10:53 PM
If there's no "main" question because you've closed it as duplicates of multiple different questions, each of which covers a different aspect of the real problem, then it can't redirect to the "main" question, and the big benefit of the duplicate-closure system has been subverted.
 
and only ever been for them
I also don't know how that function has changed since the multiple dupes feature has been around, or how the company expected/intended it to work if they left it in place
 
To be clear, I don't think of combination closures as signposts necessarily. When the OP has multiple bugs, it's unlikely that that particular combination of bugs is going to have value for others.
 
^ So why close as a duplicate then?
 
To help the user, and have a valid close reason that a hammer could use to single-handedly close a post.
 
Also, the multiple duplicates feature has been around for 3 years 8 months, apparently meta.stackexchange.com/questions/291824/…
 
10:55 PM
... Driving down the freeway, on your way to Walmart. You see a sign: "For Walmart, take the next right and the next left."
 
And, as you may note, @CodyGray, Shog lists in the rationale there: "But it also prevented anyone from updating duplicate links, which was useful in cases where more than one duplicate was appropriate (for instance, "too broad" questions that consist of multiple questions, each already answered)"
 
... But change that and for or and it's OK! Multiple duplicates are fine; but not when you need more than one to address the issue.
 
@Cody Regarding your stance about compound duplicates, what do you think about this one: I am used to dupehammer questions like Why do I get a segfault (exception, stack overflow) with my code Followed by a bunch of code, without any clue where the bug occurs, ...
... as duplicate of 1, 2 and 3
 
@AdrianMole No, the analogy would be you're driving to Walmart, and to Costco, and I show you solutions for them independently. Are you suggesting multiple maps for every pair of source-destination?
 
Anyway, I have to run now.
 
10:57 PM
@AdrianMole Yes, this.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Using #1 as a dupe target is not really helpful. Ever.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ It's not a duplicate of any of those.
The close reason you're looking for is labeled something like "lacks MCVE"
 
Yup, I know
 
18 hours ago, by Cody Gray
Closed as duplicate of RTFM is not OK.
2
 
Does anyone know what is ?
 
10:59 PM
Hah, a repost of a starred message got a star. Surely there's a double pointer joke in there somewhere ;)
 
I have a feeling I heard that name somewhere
 
Closure is not meant to send the message "GTFO", and especially not dupe-closure.
 
@CodyGray The exact text is needs debugging details, and the "duplicates" show how to get these (this is my reasoning here).
 
@BhargavRao Typo?
 
11:01 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I don't follow that logic. The problem with the question is that it lacks debugging details. It isn't a duplicate of a Q&A that shows how to get debugging details.
 
OK, I see. Will keep in mind. I still could post these links, and the concern along in a comment.
 
I see a number of C/C++ taggers who leave comments to the effect, "Maybe you should learn how to use a debugger." But that's very different from dupe-closing to that so-called canonical.
... says somebody who hasn't used a debugger in well over 20 years. ;)
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Yes, you can do that. But please keep tone in mind when composing such a comment. "RTFM" isn't a good comment, either.
 
Of course :-D
That's a thing I ditched long ago.
 
@AdrianMole Those comments always make me angry. Specifically, they make me jealous of people who are writing C++ code in environments where a debugger exists! :-p
 
11:05 PM
What? No embedded debuggers?
 
@AdrianMole a C# hammer was close beginner Q's to a target "how to use debugger in C#"...I didn't report it, but...He should choose at least one more dupe target...
 
@AdrianMole I mean, they exist. I have even created a special image that has GDB included, but the production systems I'm debugging on don't have that special debugging OS image installed...
 
@bad_coder If there's one more target, then I'd bet the debugger target is redundant anyway
 
I just use a system of strategically-placed beeps with different tones and durations. Much like many PCs do for their POSTs.
 
@cigien those weren't even debugger Q's per se, just the kind of "why isn't my nested loop doing 1+1=2"...
 
11:06 PM
Oh, our hardware doesn't have a speaker
I have to use printf
 
@bad_coder Did the Question ask "How do I use a debugger?"
 
I never met any metal, where I couldn't use a debugger to step into the code. Sometimes with restrictions like 2 breakpoins only or such, but at least still something beyond the digital analyzer or oscilloscope :D
 
@bad_coder Then the debugger target is inappropriate. Regardless of whether another target exists.
 
It's not a technical inability. It's an environmental one: lack of access.
Also... this might be controversial, but.... GDB sucks.
 
@Scratte that's my point, the ! was unrelated!! But casting a reopen might not be looked favorably upon. What to do?
 
11:08 PM
I like oscilloscopes. Great when I was writing drivers for AD/DA boards.
 
@CodyGray No, why do you think that would be controversial ;)
 
@CodyGray yes GDB sucks, that's well established fact-
 
@bad_coder Mention the correct target in a comment.. and mention that the current target is wrong.
 
@CodyGray Did you ever tried to get it working with Open JTAG?
 
Haha, okay. I wasn't sure if it was one of those, "Oh, you said that thing everyone was thinking but no one admits. You now need to hand in your 'real programming bro' card."
@πάνταῥεῖ We don't typically have JTAG breakout ports on our boards. It adds too much weight and size. So, the microprocessor has it, but it doesn't do me any good.
 
11:09 PM
@Scratte big prblemo, I'm not a into C# ATM, so going through the tag should be closers job, not mine.
 
@bad_coder The just mention the second part ;)
 
@CodyGray No secondary UART at least?
 
I try to write new code so that it is cross-platform, which not only has its own advantages, but also means that I get to use MSVC's debugger, which is glorious.
@πάνταῥεῖ Just one UART per CPU core.
 
@Scratte ok, better than nothing I suppose, it's the best I can probably do.
 
@CodyGray :-P
 
11:10 PM
On the hardware we build. On the hardware other people build and then dump on us to integrate with? Yeah. Sometimes it's a real WTF.
One had no speaker, no console/UART, no JTAG, no desktop emulator, running bare-metal (no OS). OK. First off, what am I supposed to do with this? Second, how did you develop for this?!
 
@CodyGray build a minimal linux to run on it?
 
@CodyGray As usual, starting with a pure unit testing environment, and then try to get it running on the hardware.
 
@bad_coder Well, that doesn't really help. In the final application, it isn't going to run Linux, so you'd be debugging in an environment different from the deployment environment, which is a lot less than useful.
@πάνταῥεῖ HAHA, unit testing.
 
I know XD
 
(At least, that's the response I got from my former manager when I was hired.)
It was a good sign that he'd heard of it.
Less of a good sign when he quit. :-)
 
11:15 PM
It's not well suited for very small processors and systems.
 
Yeah, not at all. In all seriousness, even though I don't do real unit testing, I still do function-level testing, so I am rarely dealing with logic bugs in the code. Most of what I deal with are just system-level integration bugs.
And any logic bugs that I do have to debug, that's when I pull out Visual Studio. When those crop up, they are practically fun to debug by comparison.
 
@CodyGray That's what I did also, of course.
 
When I do have to do in-situ debugging on small Linux systems, I honestly prefer printf debugging over GDB most of the time.
I guess I should take the time to become more proficient with GDB. It'd probably help in the long run. But ugh. I don't have time to toolsmith. There are deadlines!
 
These grayscale (no pun) heisenbugs, when you're not sure if it's a production failure of the board HW, or the software timings, wronly synched PLLs, all that stuff :P
 
Yup. The bane of my existence.
Is it in the hardware? The layout? The FPGA? The PLL? The microcontroller? The higher-level system?
Answer: All of the above!
 
11:20 PM
I'm writing a meta post about the combination closures topic. I'll use the one that I linked to above, but it's deleted, so only 10k+ers can see it. If anyone has a combination dupe example could you share that? Any tag is fine so long as an SME, preferably with a hammer, can vouch for the closure.
 
Surely there has already been a discussion on Meta about that?
 
Well, a link to that would be even better then :)
 
I found this old one.
I guess your plan was just to post your question and then let me search for duplicates, so that I can ironically close it as a duplicate of multiple questions?
 
@Cody Did that periodically in my career. ATM I am working on Windows, don't you believe there are less mysteries to solve. Linux systems are a bit more straigth forward if the kernel is configured correctly.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Gah, I disagree. I work day to day on Linux, but Windows is my real expertise. So much better, in my experience.
Probably just that "the devil you know" thing.
 
11:22 PM
@CodyGray Oh, give me some credit, I'm not sneaky like that.
 
@cigien I thought that was giving you credit!
 
:D
@CodyGray That's pretty good. Do you know an MSO one specifically? I would like programmers to weigh in particularly.
 
Yeah, I haven't looked
 
@CodyGray Could well be. Delphi and Windows supported for various Windows versions (Desktop & Server), is all slippery slope.
 
Don't think I have this stuff memorized!
@πάνταῥεῖ You're working in Delphi now? No C++?
 
11:28 PM
@CodyGray Sideways sometimes, e.g. integrating C++ APIs. For most matters Delphi is a piece of cake compared to c++, the non determinism lies in lack of a standard library beyond the System stuff, and a zoo of component libraries of all kind. Also you still can find bugs in some stuff implemented by Embarcadero, or even worse left over by Borland :-/
 
@CodyGray that would have been quiite meta, answering one's own question through the valiant use of moderator resource
 
@CodyGray Beautiful, thanks :)
 
11:48 PM
@CodyGray As you're about - should something like this be flagged (R/A or custom), or just edited out (rolled back)?
 
@AdrianMole It's not eligible for an R/A flag (see previous discussion). That inappropriate OP edit just needs to be rolled back. After that, you have a choice: raise a custom flag to alert a mod to the fact that the user added abusive stuff into their question, or do nothing more. (In this case, I've already handled it, so no flag necessary.)
 
@AdrianMole I've had such flags declined on the basis that the words should just have been edited out - or worse yet, because they were edited out by someone else before the r/a flag was seen
 
@CodyGray Where the question contains two problems which are both clearly and obviously covered by separate duplicates, I see we have five options:
A) Close as a duplicate of both dup-targets. It may be a good idea in this case to leave a comment for the OP that we prefer questions which cover only one issue, and that breaking problems into their component issues is a key component of problem solving.
B) Close as a duplicate of one & edit the question down to a single problem (which may or may not be possible & may require considerable time on the part of the SME who happens to see the question). Ask the OP to create a new question which is just the other problem, which they may, or may not, know how to do, or they may chose not to do. If the OP does create another question, it will (hopefully) just be closed as a duplicate.
C) Close as Too Broad; Ask the user to break the question into two questions, which they may have no clue how to do. When the user does break it into two questions, then (hopefully) each of those questions are individually closed as duplicate to one of the dup-targets.
D) Answer the question.
E) Do nothing. Any of the above results are possible, with, IMO, the most likely thing to happen being that it gets answered addressing both issue.
IME, for cases (B) and (C), the probability is quite high that the new question(s), which are obvious dups of simple problems, will be answered prior to being closed (which substantially reduces their usefulness as duplicates). Both (B) and (C) are quite negative for an OP: we asked for extra effort from them just to (hopefully) close the new questions as duplicates. That's not going to feel good.
The marginal (and/or average) value to the site of a duplicate (even of a decent duplicate; i.e. one that gets closed to a single dup-target without having been answered and without more than 1 comment) tends to be very small. Most such duplicates provide nearly no value to the site and are deleted by Roomba, unless the question has been answered, there are multiple comments, etc.
Also note that the dup-targets for such questions tend to be ones which already have multiple duplicates. That's not always the case, but often is, but does result in the marginal value of additional duplicates being even lower.
Overall, yes, in a world which is perfect for Stack Overflow, we would end up with two questions which are each covering only a single discrete issue, both of which are closed as duplicates of separate questions.
My opinion is that in most cases the additional marginal value to the site of having separate duplicates isn't worth the extra time and effort which is put in by our SME volunteers and/or the OP in order to go from the single combined question to two questions, both closed as duplicate. That marginal value is also not worth the additional negative experience for the OP.
So, in many, even most, cases, my opinion is that closing as a duplicate of two targets (i.e. option (A)) is the best trade-off. There are, of course, times when that is definitely not the correct choice. As with nearly everything, it is situational.
 
@CodyGray Thanks for the start. Most of the questions in the second list are not dupes. A few of the questions from the first list are dupes, but they all predate the ability of hammers to edit multiple targets, which is a very important part of my question. I'll keep looking for a dupe, but I'll post my question if I don't find one. Hopefully someone will provide an undeleted post.
 
I probably should have also touched on (D) and (E). I feel those are obviously wrong, so really don't need much comment.
 
11:52 PM
Ok, and I'm going to read Makyen's answer thoroughly before doing that as well :)
 
@Makyen I feel that these types of concatenated duplicate closures provide even less marginal value to the site than a normal duplicate, which can at least serve as a signpost.
I don't think that (D) is self-evidently wrong. If it's a well-posed question, and one that others are at least somewhat likely to have in the future (as I think the one that originally brought this discussion on was, since it included an MCVE and the exact compiler error message for searchability), then I think it deserves a quality answer that provides a basic summary and connects the dots between the two (or more) existing Q&A that provide additional depth.
 
@CodyGray I agree that they are of lower value than a single issue/problem duplicate. I just don't feel that the marginal additional value is worth the time/effort from SMEs, close-voters, etc. and the additional negative experience from the OP (in most cases).
 
What would create the additional negative experience for the OP?
 
@Makyen I'm writing a meta post to get community feedback on this, and unsurprisingly, your text is better than the version I have currently. Do you mind if I lift some of your text verbatim? I won't if you don't want to be attributed.
 

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