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11:00 PM
And this ain't cheap software. I called their helpline, once, and they told me I was too specialized.
 
What does that mean, "too specialized"?
 
SP opens .csv and .xls/.xlsx files in its own windows. But it does it poorly.
@CodyGray They wanted more money.
 
That's because Excel's format has never been fully documented
 
But my software has (limited) interaction with Excel. The standard installation includes a type library that can be used in C++ code (with some effort).
 
There's a big difference between opening and handling Excel files, and trying to automate Excel in the background.
 
11:03 PM
... my code needs to know nothing about the file formats. It just invokes the Excel app, like you can from things like C# and VBA.
Maybe, one day, you'll get to see my code. Then, for sure, you'll go on a serial voting spree on my posts. Up or down - hard to say! ;-)
 
Why wouldn't I just fix the code?
 
You have 10 years to spare?
 
Surely it would not take 10 years to fix code?
 
Don't forget: I learned C++ from a book called "MFC Programming". That was pre-2000.
I only ever became aware of the STL after I joined Stack Overflow!! !!!!!
Now, I have ~1,000 upvotes on STL answers.
 
That's the one by Prosise?
Oh, no. Feuer.
It is... not great.
 
11:11 PM
I don't have it here (at home). It's at work - but it's an 'official' M/S publication. Haven't even moved it from its high shelf in 15 years.
 
Its counterpart, "Win32 Programming", by Rector and Newcomer, is exceptionally good. Much, much better than the MFC one.
MS publication? No. The one I'm thinking of is Addison-Wesley. amazon.com/MFC-Programming-Alan-R-Feuer/dp/0201633582
 
Some of the early Win32 books were great, indeed. Did you ever read any of Walter Oney's window driver books? (You once mentioned thunks, so probably, you have.)
 
No, don't recognize the name.
Learned about thunks from a variety of places, including Raymond Chen's blog and the various books published about the internals of Windows.
 
Again, I'm relying on memory. But I think the name is correct. He even replied to an email I sent him about a bug/issue with his code on the 'free' version of MSVC.
 
Wow
 
11:15 PM
Free version (back in the 1990s) didn't actually implement inline - broke his code.
 
Uhhh?
Which version?
I am skeptical of this
You would say "you are too young", which is true, except that I'm also a retro-computing enthusiast.
 
Well, he acknowledged it and reported my error in his online 'errata' page.
Version? Whatever was active in 1998.
 
Anyone know of a question that has been closed as a duplicate and has multiple duplicate targets?
 
Over to you, Cody.
... but I'll have a look (saw one today, in review).
 
@Catija you only want one? :-p
 
11:18 PM
I need a screenshot of the banner for a presentation I'm making.
 
@Catija Here's a deleted one, but perhaps you want a non-deleted one.
 
Hmmm. I could undelete just for the screenshot :P
(kidding)
 
Thanks :D Bonus - gold badge close. :D Multiple birds, one stone :D
 
did you mean "one Cody"? :)
 
11:22 PM
@Catija Ah. You want to see one that's had other dupes edited in by a gold-tagger?
 
Won't that look the same?
 
Dunno. Maybe that's what Catija wants to see?
 
I'm going to mention editing the close reason list but I don't need to get that deep - this is a primer at this point, not an in-depth study.
 
It's really the same thing.
 
Or at least, I'm trying to make it a primer - if you haven't noticed, I suck at not going into detail.
 
11:23 PM
Any moderator or anyone who holds a gold badge can edit the duplicate list after closure.
 
Yeah, I guess. How else can it possibly have multiple dupes?
 
@Catija I hadn't noticed! I think you're better than I am. :-)
The workflow is that someone must close it as a dupe. Only one dupe. Then, either the same person (if they are a mod or have a gold badge), or someone else (meeting the same criteria) can edit the duplicate list. Editing can be as simple as adding more targets, reordering the existing targets, or even removing the original target and replacing it with a new one.
Obviously, it is not possible to remove all targets when editing and save changes. That would result in a question closed as a dupe with no targets.
 
Fortunately I have people who review what I write and have helped me trim things where I go too deep - unfortunately, there's always people who get grumpy that I'm leaving things out. It's a difficult balance.
 
BTW - That editing is an excellent feature. Makes by gold tag-badge worth the effort.
 
Like, for example - is it too detailed to say that on main sites, you can't use a question as a duplicate target if it doesn't have an answer... but then throw in the caveat that mods can do whatever they want? :P
 
11:25 PM
@CodyGray That would be so cool. :-)
This question has been asked (and answered) before. But, if you are too lazy to figure that out, why the **** should we help you.
 
@Catija No, because that's a misfeature.
 
Letting mods close without an answer is a misfeature?
 
Also the caveat that "unless the proposed duplicate was asked by the same user*.
 
And now for something completely different - The election is underway, and 27,326 (3.27% of 835,630 eligible) users have already voted! I can answer frequently-asked questions about elections (type @ElectionBot help for more info).
 
@Catija No. But +1 for snark.
 
11:28 PM
Ah, not letting you close without an answer is the issue.
 
Yes.
It's still a duplicate, even if it hasn't been answered.
 
@CodyGray That already exists, is not?
 
@AdrianMole Correct. It's another caveat she didn't mention, even when trying to exhaustively cover all caveats.
 
Even caveats have caveats?
 
Caveat: except when they don't
 
11:29 PM
Since we're nitpicking: If it doesn't have an upvoted or accepted answer.
 
Go pick your own nits!
 
Even worse
 
(someone's about to nitpick me and tell me it's actually "positively scored" and not "upvoted", I'm sure, but I don't feel like checking right now)
 
Yeah
 
I've added the caveat to the speaker notes so I don't forget it. I used a † to mark the spots I have extra details.
 
11:31 PM
It's actually a problem, sometimes. I've seen questions that are obvious dupes, but the target's answer isn't upvoted/accepted. Frustrating.
 
@AdrianMole Did you know that there are little voting arrows to the left of answers that you can use to fix that?
 
@Catija Makes sense. That way, when people start asking questions, you can throw daggers at them.
 
@AdrianMole So upvote the answer? Profit?
 
... especially when it's a good answer. I can upvote, of course, but that's extra work and sometimes comes across the "no votes left" barrier.
 
@Catija Yes, that is the known workaround.
You can then go remove your upvote.
 
11:32 PM
You just have to do it all in a few minutes :P
 
That's not particularly hard. You have 5 minutes.
To click... 3 buttons? Maybe 4?
 
If you remove your upvote, can later close voters still use the same duplicate target?
 
But, too many upvotes would damage my candidature in the next election, apparently.
3
 
har har har
 
@Catija I'm 99% sure they can, since it's already been proposed.
 
11:33 PM
Will have to engineer an experiment next time I find one...
 
So... we built something into the UI that's (reasonably) easy to get around... I suppose that's an argument for getting rid of it. :P
 
They're quite rare, though.
 
I like experiments.
 
Amusingly, I think the usual case is self-duplicates involving sock-puppetry.
 
I really, deeply think it is a misfeature that serves no purpose. Just think through the logic. You find a question that you know is an exact duplicate of another question. Yet, the first question hasn't been answered yet. Well, maybe it's a hard problem! Maybe nobody has the answer. Does this make the new question not a duplicate?
 
11:34 PM
I think the argument has been - if there are no answers (at all), it's possible the newer question has different wording or ... might get more attention for some reason, so having two questions is... good? Dunno, though. I understand why we do it and I can understand the DenverCoder9 issue, too.
 
They ask the question once, get an answer they don't like that never gets upvoted or accepted, then post the question again from a new account.
 
Well, in the tags I follow, sock-puppet dupes are seldom the issue.
 
It's the same broken thinking that led to the advice in the blue box being "ask a new question" when your question was closed as a duplicate. (Except I think that's now been fixed.)
 
@Catija Except that... the new question redirects to the original one, once closed as a duplicate, so the argument that it might get more attention still works as designed.
 
11:35 PM
@CodyGray I... don't think we fixed that? Or if we did, I didn't realize that.
 
@Catija Gah! Fix that first! Before making slides! Before passing Go! Before collecting $200!
 
But the redirects are forced for some users, so the new question is sometimes impossible to see without putting in a no-redirect in the URL.
@CodyGray I think you keep forgetting that I'm not a dev.
 
Yeah. How do you 'fix' a duplicate question?
 
@Catija That's fine. Remember, the purpose was to draw attention.
 
Catija's correct, screenshot taken just now.
 
11:36 PM
@Catija I would just think CMs would have the ability to edit UI text. Sad that's a dev-only feature.
 
@AdrianMole Edit it to clarify why it's not a dupe
 
There's a subset of UI we can edit - that's not one of the bits.
 
@RyanM That assumes it's not a dupe. Lots of new users get dismayed when their question is closed as a dupe and try (in vain) to justify that it ain't. But it is. I see this quite a bit in the Reopen queue.
 
It's not that hard.
Just say: "If you believe your question is not a duplicate, then..."
"Otherwise, you can find your answer <here>."
 
Yeah, but that's not how new users see our world. They want their question to go down well, and the blue banner is equally off-putting, whether it's for a dupe or for a "no code" reason.
 
11:39 PM
And maybe: "Remember that having your question closed as a duplicate is not a punishment. It just means that your question has already been asked and answered. The reason we close questions as duplicates is to keep all of the information in one place. But duplicates can still be a useful contribution to our knowledge-base, because they redirect to the 'main' question."
2
@AdrianMole Maybe it is the wrong shade of blue?
 
Heh - 50 shades of (close) blue?
 
@CodyGray The new changes to reopen editing seem like they should make the "ask a new one" unnecessary - that's the whole point of the change.
We really need to make the network-wide close descriptions more useful :(
 
@Catija Yes, I agree. But regardless, it was never reasonable to say that in the case that a question was closed as a duplicate.
 
Also, sorry, I omitted to much. I had meant ..., then edit it to clarify how it is different."
 
11:41 PM
Anita said that there is little evidence of abuse of the "edit and submit for reopening" option. I have anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
 
I... don't know that it was ever reasonable... but it was... thought to be more helpful to the asker since the likelihood of the question ever getting reopened (particularly if it'd been downvoted) was very low.
 
@Spevacus Yes. Rene posted one on MSO, too, if I remember correctly.
 
It's been mentioned a couple times most everywhere from what I can tell.
 
@Catija Pretty wrong thinking... The new question they tried to ask would also get closed, and then people would admonish them for re-posting the same question, and the system would kick in and ban them...
@Spevacus I try to complain about it at least once a week.
 
@AdrianMole A question can be directly closed with multiple dup-targets, if there are multiple close voters who selected different targets. Each target which was selected by a close voter will be included in the dup-target list upon closure. So, with 3 CV to close, the maximum number of dup-targets without manually editing the dup-target list is 3.
@Catija No, they can't use the same dup-target which is no longer positively scored or accepted. They would also need to do the same thing regarding upvotes.
 
11:43 PM
@CodyGray Right. I'm not arguing with your logic. Just... trying to explain the thinking internally. The people involved in those decisions are all gone at this point so I'm not going to bite my tongue in saying... I had enough notes on the decisions being made during that project that I was essentially told that I wasn't welcome to continue to give feedback.
 
@Makyen Well spotted!
 
@Catija Youch! That's pretty broken. "You've given so much [helpful and informed] feedback so far that we do not welcome any more feedback from you."
 
Well, they saw my feedback as ... unhelpful because they didn't agree with it. They felt it was argumentative and I was acting as a blocker.
 
@Makyen You've tried it?
 
@Catija That's unfortunate...
 
11:45 PM
@Catija We're talking about changing a few words on a system message..... Hardly "blocking"....
 
@CodyGray Yep, prior to being a moderator, I'd experienced both of the above.
 
So there's no special treatment for when it's presented in the closure dialog as a first-class option? Odd.
I thought I remembered differently, but this change was either very shortly before or already after I became a mod.
 
@CodyGray The people who were here didn't see the wording as "important" they thought y'all getting upset over "minor" rewording of UI text (ignoring that it had been fought over years prior to get it where it was)... was silly and that they were trying to make things more friendly to people who weren't in-users.
 
While we're (not) on the subject of the Reopen queue ... any news on what I call the "Cody" bug? (The one where a mod reopens then immediately re-closes, but the Q still goes into the Reopen queue.) (I call it the Cody bug cuz I keep seeing such posts where he did just that.)
 
And, again, I'll emphasize that those people aren't here any more. Just in case it seems like I'm talking about the current situation.
@AdrianMole Huh. Was it reported on meta and status-reviewed? JNat does a lot of the triaging so I don't always see those coming through. But it seems like something we should poke at/
 
11:47 PM
@Catija I... uh... that's hard to grasp, really. I mean, the people who aren't in-users are going to be the ones reading the text, so being friendly to them absolutely requires that the text be precise and accurate. It giving bad advice that is rejected by the "in-users" is going to lead to precisely the opposite of the desired outcome, and an even worse experience for all involved.
I guess you know this already, but, wow. I just can't imagine. Like, I get how they could object to some things on this rationale, but not this.
 
Yeah. Glorfindel (IIRC) reported it on Meta.SE.
 
@AdrianMole Yeah. Also a similar bug where if a mod closes, then edits, the "bump this post to the reopen queue" checkbox is checked and disabled, so I can't turn it off!
If anything, it should be disabled in the off position.
 
@CodyGray They saw how the system worked (few closed posts ever getting reopened) and thought they could change user behavior by changing the UI - they forgot that they need to work with the community to discuss the behavior changes so that they can understand how curators react to the same exact question being reasked... and I don't know that they were very versed in how the q-bans work.
 
This happened to me three times already. Fortunately, after I was informed about it the first time, I knew enough to manually wait for the enqueueing and bump it out of the reopen review queue.
@Catija Why should duplicates ever get re-opened, unless the duplicate closure was wrong? And how often are duplicate closures ever wrong? Almost never, in my experience.
 
... that does seem odd. Being a mod shouldn't prevent you from making a "minor" edit.
 
11:50 PM
Here you go - no red status tag.
 
An edit by the closing user should never be considered anything but minor.
 
@CodyGray There's a difference between the frequency that curators feel duplicate closures were wrong and askers do. Askers frequently feel like duplicate closures are wrong - often because the duplicate closure process often leaves them not able to comprehend how the duplicate actually answers the question.
 
If they thought they could salvage it, they would have edited instead of closing.
Any edit after closing is turd-polishing.
 
@CodyGray That's strange. I've definitely seen that not checked and not disabled in that situation. Ah... OK. You were probably seeing it when the question was already in the reopen queue, which produces the UI effect you describe.
 
@Catija Almost always because they feel like it's a slap in the face. Which, and now we've come full-circle, is because the guidance displayed in the form of system messages is sub-par.
 
11:52 PM
@CodyGray You can't use that term any more - it's not polite. Suggest: shit shining.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, I understand - you do understand that you're preaching to the choir, right? :D
 
@AdrianMole I heard it on CNN from Van Jones. Therefore, it must not be impolite.
 
I hear that turds can be polished up quite nicely.
 
MythBusters proved they can.
 
Yup.
 
11:53 PM
@Catija What - they become diamonds? {runs away very fast}
 
@Makyen Huh. Need to double-check.
Unfortunately, I've done way too many things on the site since for those questions to be easily retrievable.
 
@AdrianMole Does that make me one of the turd-y-est people around?
 
This is the case Adrian brought up in SOCVR. I reopened and then immediately re-closed so I could change the close reason that was displayed. (Normally, one would not bother with this because it's too hard and requires too much coordination, but it's trivial for a mod, so I did.) Anyway, question ended up in the reopen review queue, even though I'd closed it. Why?
 
That does seem odd. A reopen vote that immediately causes the post to be reopened (mod/gold badge) - should not queue the post for reopening, even if the post is closed the next time the queue fetching happens.
 
I'm just glad I voted to "leave closed".
 
11:58 PM
Here's the other case, where I fixed the old missing dupe target by re-opening and re-closing.
 
No mod action should push a post into a queue. It's the quick "re-close" that confuddles the system, I think. (Weird - "confuddles" is actually a word!)
 

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