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3:01 PM
custom
 
Is it the last declined flag at stackoverflow.com/users/flag-summary/… you're referring to?
 
Yeah, the deleted part might be a mistake, but the downvotes are not.
 
I'd suggest not flagging again as there's not likely to be a different outcome. Probably best to just let it go and not worry about it... if it becomes an on-going thing then it might be worth flagging again but for now - don't fret about it.
 
We have a new nomination! Please welcome our latest candidate Makyen!
13
 
YAY Finally!
 
Zoe
3:07 PM
:D
 
Yay, another candidate to fully endorse
 
So - that's a Mac and a Mak... :)
 
@ElectionBot Woo Hoo!!!
 
@AdrianMole Woohoo!
 
Zoe
WOO!
 
3:17 PM
Who is left in SOCVR ...
 
Zoe
You :p
 
@rene Fuzzy flower, the odd (very odd) lurking mod, and teenage Welsh.
 
Also fluffy lurking wolf
 
Zoe
>.>
 
@rene I don't get it
 
3:20 PM
You're right, the flower forgot the question mark: "Who is left in SOCVR ... ?"
 
o/
 
\o
 
<•>_<•>
 
We have a new nomination! Please welcome our latest candidate rene!
12
 
@AnnZen 3 regulars (2 being room owners) have nominated for running as mod. I expect they might spend less time in our room then. So who is left seems a legit question, although a bit jokingly as we have plenty of awesome regulars around.
 
3:23 PM
Now who's left in SOCVR?
:sob:
 
Zoe
@ElectionBot That is not okay xd
 
:joy:
 
No stars, I'm not popular, as predicted
 
Doesn’t anybody feel it’s a bit inappropriate to nominate yourself in the election after so many resigned in protest?
 
@Andreas No, because I care passionately about the quality of the content on the site despite what has happened
 
3:26 PM
@Nick Yes, but it’s rendering the protest resignations far less important and impactful.
 
Rob
I mean, one could say that by even using the site anymore you're doing the same
 
Yes, and no. What do you mean by «using»? Asking? Answering? Flagging? Reviewing? ...?
 
Rob
Well, that's up to you as to where you draw the line. Why is applying to be a moderator negating their protest, while other participation is not?
 
Because you fill in the hole they created only for their protest. It’s reverting their protest.
 
Rob
And further, perhaps some people aren't interested in the protest, and are solely focused on Q&A?
 
3:30 PM
@rene You have many stars, but they're mostly blurred out to the point of invisibility.
 
Then I’d say that is selfish.
 
If you pack up and go home, you no longer have a voice
a seat at the table
 
@Andreas So what if it is? I vote in politics based on my own desires, not what's best for the country, would you call that selfish?
 
@Nick Yes, I would.
 
@Andreas I fill the hole with more protest then they bargained for ...
 
3:32 PM
@Andreas I wouldn't go so far as to say inappropriate. It is a choice. Frankly, I didn't find it an easy choice. There was a good part of last year and into this one where I would have found it difficult to not respond negatively if asked if I wanted to be a moderator. However, SE has stated they are changing course, and they've lived up to that, to a large extent. I feel it's reasonable to try to work with them to make the change effective.
 
@KevinB You don’t really pack up and go home by protest resigning. You’re still a part of the community.
 
@Andreas Then everyone's selfish. What's best for the country is decided by everyone voting on their own desires.
2
 
eh, not everyone that resigned decided to stick around
 
@AnnZen Not really.
@rene Haven’t read your nomination post and meta answers yet.
 
Zoe
@Andreas you might wanna click the links xd
 
3:33 PM
@KevinB That’s because they gave up. No more confidence.
 
I see resigning "in protest" as giving up footing in the very.. thing you're protesting for
 
@Zoe I will.
@Makyen I’d say the latest «thanks» button is a direct contrast to «changing course».
 
@Makyen yeah... that's the large part of why I requested re-instatement in April after stepping down in October... it's still not perfect but there's enough what appears to be genuine efforts to restore the balance... it's still going to take time and there's no doubt going to be more hiccoughs along the way but... to me - it was worth another stab at it...
 
you're effectively making room for someone to come along who approves of what happened or current processes. Whether we get someone of that nature doesn't seem likely given the people who have come forward fortunately.
 
@Andreas I think you and I see being a moderator very differently. To me being a moderator is about responsibility and duty to others. By volunteering to be a moderator, I've volunteer to spend more than an entire work-month every year cleaning up the garbage on Stack Overflow. I don't see how that choice as selfish.
Unfortunately, yes, there are people that seek to become a moderator for selfish reasons, or for a feeling of power. Personally, I hope that such people are not elected.
2
 
3:37 PM
@JonClements They still haven’t corrected many of the issues they created. I have the impression they just wanna make us forget about that, and not fix it.
 
eh, they have certainly improved the situation, at least outwardly facing.
 
@Andreas Well.... there's nothing forcing you to stick around ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@Makyen We don’t necessarily see it very differently; you’re absolutely correct that it’s not selfish to spend so much time at doing this work. That is not what’s selfish. What could be perceived selfish, is to «overwrite» the protests made by those who resigned. Stepping up to do the «dirty» work, could be interpreted as that you have no care for the reasons why the previous moderators resigned.
 
@Andreas If I believed that was the case - I wouldn't be modding again... my faith might be misguided and time will tell, but for now, like I said, I believe there to be genuine effort going on
 
@Andreas Yeah, releasing the thanks feature test the way they did was unpleasant and unfortunate. There will be hiccups. Hopefully all they are are hiccups. It seems like SE is listening to the feedback they are getting on that feature. We won't know for sure for some time.
@Andreas IMO, time has passed; the situation has changed. That they protested is very good, but the protesting was intended to communicate. That communication appears to have been accomplished. Have we gotten a perfect resolution, certainly not. Has the situation improved, yes. Has it improved to the point where it's a better choice to work together towards an even better situation? I think so. I may be right. I may be wrong. There's no way to find out, other than moving forward.
 
3:49 PM
@JonClements It’s hard for me to see the real genuine effort until they rollback bad changes.
@Makyen Maybe you’re right.
 
@Andreas sure... but hopefully you can see how others see it differently :)
 
@KevinB «Outwardly facing», also known as «false kindness»? I just don’t see them admitting their errors at the scale they should. I probably just have less confidence in SE than the rest of you do.
@JonClements Of course. :) My initial question wasn’t necessarily exactly representative of my own view.
I don’t know exactly what stand to take on this. I’ll do my best at assuming good faith. I don’t think the ones nominated are selfish, but I’m rather worried we’re forgetting too quickly.
Anyway; I gtg now. I’ll come back later, to read up on possible responses. :)
Bye.
 
4:06 PM
@ElectionBot How did you do it @rene Are you a sockpuppet of Sam's account?
 
You're free to have no hope if you wish
:shrug:
 
@Dharman No. I'm just a massive fan of Rick Astley.
Welcome to the election chat room! The election is currently in the nomination phase with 7 candidates. I can answer frequently-asked questions about the election - type @ElectionBot help for more info.
 
@ElectionBot Something's wrong with your calculation. 7 + rene = 8.
 
Except in this case the value of rene == 0 :(
 
4:22 PM
Shoot. I got rickrolled by my own bot :(
2
Well played
 
@SamuelLiew I was taught by the best.
 
Who is in control of the bot at the moment? Rene or Sam?
 
skynet...
So, seems there's 42 users called "John Connor"... if that count starts going down - we know what's going on...
 
4:39 PM
ElectionBot says rene is running into the game. I can't see his nomination nor his questionaire. What about that?
 
In short: it lied.
 
Try the links
 
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio someone has a cruel sense of humour...
 
@JonClements me?
 
@AnnZen no... ElectionBot...
 
4:44 PM
Its creator must be very cruel.
 
Never gonna give you up! - So it is just pretended? Does rene know about that or is he really trying to run into at a later point? And how is this even possible?
 
I would guess rene is aware, he was the next person to post a message after that
 
How it’s possible? Obviously because it either malfunctioned, or the creator made it to do that.
 
OK.
BTW I'm glad Makyen decided to play with.
 
EB has a restricted "say" command...
@TheLittleNaruto long time no see - how you been?
 
4:46 PM
@JonClements cbg o/
Good so far
How are you doing?
 
oh ya know, same old - thanks for asking... :)
 
I saw one interesting nomination
 
Fresh wind since nothing happened in a few days.
 
@JonClements You got your modship back?
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio A draft of my questionnaire answers has been posted for feedback in the Election chatroom. – noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ 17 mins ago
 
@TheLittleNaruto Since April...
 
4:49 PM
Can somebody help me in finding that draft? ^
 
@TheLittleNaruto I think it's here
 
@JonClements Cool! Congratulations!
 
@TheLittleNaruto Thanks... what can I say... I'm a glutton for punishment :p
 
@JonClements Arigatou Gozaimas 🙏
@JonClements xD
 
I suggested him to do a real questionaire, where it belongs to. I don't know why he isn't posting it where it should. Maybe he won't that anything is touched to posting it on GitLab instead.
 
4:54 PM
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio Because the gitlab one is a draft, not a response
 
Yeah right
 
Well, it's what we're told :p
 
@rene Why isn't he just posting it to the questionaire post? What is the importance of the "draft" part here? Can't you edit your questionaire there?
 
What did rene do to deserve a ping :p, and yes, you can edit it there, but it's better to have all your thoughts together and collected rather than putting something out to be scrutinised before it's finished
 
that ^
 
4:58 PM
Aha. Are the candidates be able to edit their q's nonetheless after the nomination phase ends?
 
Yes
 
rene, Are you going to nominate yourself this time?
You would make a good mod.
 
Well... they can edit that questionnaire at any point - but the nomination post gets locked after the nomination phase
 
I meant after the nomination.
 
I wonder if @rene is getting bored of being asked that by now :p
 
4:59 PM
@JonClements Yes, because the questionnaire is just any old meta post
 
@JonClements Yes, that is wanted I wanted to know.
 
Sorry! I wasn't knowing lol
 
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio After the primary starts (or election if there's no primary) they can't edit their nomination post, but can edit their questionnaire (if it hasn't been locked yet, which may well never happen, but /shrug)
 
@Makyen Your nomination is what I wanted to do with mine yesterday. Now that I see how superior your nomination is to my message I decided I definitely need to change mine. I hope you will not think I am trying to copy you. I am still overshadowed by you by a mile
Could someone help me to check the grammar in my new nomination message, please?
 
5:17 PM
@rene Are you getting bored with being asked about if you're getting bored with being asked about your nomination?
 
@Dharman is it posted?
 
@Dharman I don't have a problem with you copying the format I'm using. I'd like to see everyone at least put their username in a # at the top of their nomination, because I think that will make the page easier to read. I did that part because when I was scrolling through the page I didn't find it immediately obvious where comments ended and a new nomination began. Sure, I could tell where those breaks are, but it wasn't something that jumped out of the page.
 
Exactly my train of thought.
@Nick Yes
 
pt 4 should be I have voted ...
 
@Makyen I agree about names at the top, someone should try and find a way to make that a built-in feature.
 
5:19 PM
Other than that looks fine, I'd personally be tempted to remove the comma after "moderator's toolbox" but that may be a matter of opinion
 
@IanCampbell That would be nice to see.
 
The fact that I can speak English still amazes me
Thanks, @Nick
 
np
 
5:42 PM
@Dharman «I have voted to close 12.7k and delete 1.5 posts.» I’d rewrite that a bit. «I’ve voted to close 12.7k posts, and delete 1.5k posts/others».
 
@Dharman "I have voted to close 12.7k and delete 1.5 posts." <- You have deleted one and a half posts? The part of deleting half a post is rather intriguing. :)
 
didn't even see the missing k :joy:
 
How about "I've voted to close 12.7k posts and voted to delete 1.5k posts"?
 
You need a comma after the first «posts».
 
posts is there twice.
 
5:47 PM
Hence why I suggested maybe using «others» instead.
 
I'd still go I have rather than I've, and leave the comma out, it's not necessary
posts being there twice is fine
Isn't english being so variable between people fantastic :D
 
I am literally counting characters here
 
The comma is necessary, else Dharman has «voted to close 12.7k posts and deletes&)@&(kr»
 
@Andreas I think you forgot to null-terminate your message
 
You just made me wonder how many votes I've made... apparently it's only 5,207 close but 9,268 delete... so you're well ahead close vote wise...
 
5:49 PM
mhm, no. It’s on purpose.
 
@JonClements Are the ones made when you are moderator still increasing the counter?
 
Without comma, you effectively combine these two sentences with an «and»: «I have voted to close 12.7k posts» and «I have voted to close 12.7k delete». That last sentence doesn’t make sence, which is why I inserted garbage.
 
@Dharman yeah... I'd imagine a good chunk of those delete votes are going to be post mod...
 
- and yes, I understood the joke. ;)
 
@Andreas Except that not a single person reading it would misunderstand what is being said, I didn't say anything about correctness, I said it wasn't necessary
 
5:52 PM
It is necessary when it makes the sentence grammatically incorrect without it.
 
I would like to buy additional 100 characters
 
What's necessary is getting the information across, nothing more
 
Not having the comma makes it a speed bump. Everybody will understand it, but it’s damaging the post.
 
The whole thing is exactly 1200 characters long.
 
Then allow me to add a comma.
:)
 
5:55 PM
... with the comma
 
Then don’t allow me. :)
 
@Andreas If you're going to argue the correctness of a comma, at least correctly use I have, while have is main verb (the part on which emphasis should be placed), it shouldn't be contracted :p
 
@Nick Oh? I thought we were emphasizing «close» and «delete» here.
 
I would argue no
The emphasis is that an amount of moderation has already been performed, hence "have"
 
:O Then what we really should emphasize, is «have not», to increase the moderation.
 
5:59 PM
@Dharman No problem - but your 100 characters will cost you 100 flags.
 
I hate the English language sometimes...
And I'm English...
 
We can agree.
 
6:15 PM
Welcome to the election chat room! The election is currently in the nomination phase with 7 candidates. I can answer frequently-asked questions about the election - type @ElectionBot help for more info.
 
Yes thank you ElectionBot
 
6:50 PM
@Makyen part of you answer in election questions (giving more leeway to high rep users) made me think of curl question incident. What is your stance on that question? Should it be open, closed, deleted, historically locked?
I am asking you in particular because, for other candidates I am interested in I already know their position.
 
7:04 PM
@DalijaPrasnikar I feel a historical lock is the correct choice. It clearly has value. Deleting it would be removing that value, so isn't a good choice. OTOH, it's also clearly not "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development", so is off-topic, which means it should be closed. The other available option is a historical lock, which also prevents the back and forth of users repeatedly opening it, closing it, and/or trying to delete it.
However, I feel it was inappropriate for the company to use that question and answer as an example of the good content which Stack Overflow receives, because it's a poor choice to present an off-topic question that way. If it was desired to provide that question and answer with more visibility, then it should have only been done with an explanation that the question was off-topic, even though, in this case, it happened to generate an interesting answer.
 
7:20 PM
I don't remember closing that question... that said, looking at it, I'd do it again
 
7:48 PM
@Makyen we agree, then
 	history 	notice added 	Jean-François Fabre♦ 		Historical significance
There aren't that many choices. But what was infuriating was that StackOverflow was promoting the site using that very question.... which was closed & locked, then deleted then undeleted.
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Yeah, promoting the site by standing up that question as good content really was a disservice to everyone trying to maintain the quality and focus of the site. If they had instead held up the same question as an example of off-topic material that is being saved, that wouldn't have been nearly as bad (not really good, but far less bad). Even better would have been to migrate it to a site where it's closer to being on-topic, and then promote it.
 
Zoe
@Nick I'm gonna let you in on a little secret: we all do ;P
 
Oh shush you
 
8:17 PM
Welcome to the election chat room! The election is currently in the nomination phase with 7 candidates. I can answer frequently-asked questions about the election - type @ElectionBot help for more info.
 
Will we have a primary? I doubt that very much now...
came out wrong. deleting.
 
:49892249 I was considering based on who/how many people nominated, however I can comfortably now say I know I'm voting for
 
so good luck to (almost) all the candidates.
There are enough candidates now to make sure that those who win will be fit for the part.
(don't forget that the 3rd contestant can be called out later if needed)
 
(my message was originally intended to be a response to the first of your deleted messages, fwiw, I didn't think they came out wrong given some candidates)
 
I still don't know who I'm going to pick as 1st 2nd 3rd, that will be a difficult choice, really.
 
8:23 PM
I know who but I don't know what positions
 
Thanks Nick, but I don't want to sound like there is more than 1 troll 😀
 
^^
 
Yeah, exactly what I was saying, but less convoluted
 
I know who will be 3rd, I'm struggling with 1st/2nd though,.... as I did last year
 
no one's got a canine as their profile picture so I've got no one to vote for :p
 
8:25 PM
Choosing the 1st one wasn't too much of a problem for me last year.
@JonClements some have horses.
I have a cat as an avatar in another site if that counts (well, former cat of mine, RIP)
 
@JonClements Question, was this you?, been trying to figure it out, but I've just got a list of 3 people I know it wasn't xd
 
I see you're being somewhat flexible in your interpretation of "canine" :)
@Nick Nope - that wasn't me
 
Zoe
@SamuelLiew is ElectionBot supposed to be down?
 
wtf, I'm just gunna blame Art
 
@JonClements or 'candidate'
 
8:28 PM
I'm not down.
 
@Zoe Flagged/Chat-banned for telling lies about rene.
 
someone is pulling this bot strings. And it ain't me, Nick can testify
 
Zoe
huh
it said it was last online a few mins ago, which I thought meant borked xd
 
Who you huh-ing?
 
who are the candidates ?
 
8:30 PM
@Nick I'm always lurking, Wazowski.
 
Zoe
who are the candidates?
 
Well,I guess we'll never know
 
Huh?
 
is rene a troll?
 
how many nominations
maybe it is borked, who knows :p
 
8:31 PM
You damn useless piece of junk
No reaction...
 
What is my candidate score?
 
Yeah, looks like it's only half awake
 
@Zoe Failed to compute plain text: i.imgur.com/Xu2e7Lj.png
2
 
lmao
 
Is someone tampering with the ElectionBot, or is this done by a moderator?
 
8:35 PM
No, the bot has a special sense of humour
 
Zoe
our future robotic overlord*
 
@AnnZen Probably by whoever has access to the bot's account
 
but auto-answers don't work.
 
@ArtOfCode Well.... was it you?
 
it was not
for once
 
8:39 PM
Today my 9 year son helped me finding more sockpuppets I failed to see. Moderation isn't only for grownups after all.
We needz moar nominationz
 
Better than 9 year old socks helping to find your son.
 
At least one more...
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre I coulda told you that... :P
 
@AdrianMole true....
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre I will be happy if I end up in the top 6
 
8:41 PM
@Mithical thanks, I'd rather it stay inside the family:)
 
Although I would be really really happy if I end up in top 2
 
@Dharman I wish you the best. ATM ending up in the top 6 isn't going to be too difficult.
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre (Not sure if my joke is going over your head or if yours is going over mine.)
 
Maybe little bit of both
doesn't matter...
 
@Mithical I thought you were refering to yourself not being a grown up, which isn't much of a joke :joy:
 
8:42 PM
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Makes me wonder what searching for sock puppets is like.
 
I ended up in the top 9 in 2018. Wasn't too pleasant.
@AnnZen I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
 
I've always wondered if mods have a button that just looks up all accounts that have logged in from that IP and sees if they've voted for each other
that'd make sense to me
 
@Nick Well, yes, although more the "became a mod at 14" part of me not being an adult. Me not being an adult won't stay true for much longer, after all. ;)
 
I could also tell you but then Jean​‑François would have to kill me
@Nick It's a form and you get a result of HTML table with all the information.
There are a few pages actually.
 
One of the strengths of moderator tools is unfortunately "security by obscurity"
 
8:44 PM
The good thing about said button is that it would be able to return all the accounts and votes between them without having to return any PII
 
@Nick I was proposing such a feature or similar, just being able to know that all the votes are from the same person without knowing who the person/account is would be helpful.
 
Did it gain any traction?
 
Only CMs have the top level of detail. The feature request got votes, but I think it was too specific.
 
That's disappointing to hear, fingers crossed something comes out of it
 
Besides our tools are not so bad actually :)
I wish that mods had more direct poiwer. For instance we can delete sockpuppets, but we cannot merge accounts of the same person. We have to ask a CM, and CMs are even more overworked than we are.
So maybe sometimes mods choose to delete one of the accounts instead, that would be the perverse effect...
Or invalidating obvjous fraudulent votes without deleting the accounts
A lot of red tape if you ask me... Well, I suppose they don't want that mods do too many things that are hard to undo. Merging accounts is probably harder to undo than undeleting them. Same for un-unvalidating votes.
 
8:51 PM
There was a time when mods could merge accounts. It went... badly.
 
@ArtOfCode Are you saying accounts can't be merged now?
 
Probably because it was a half-measure. When the mod wasn't sure, he/she merged,and if it wasn't the same person, well, go undo that mess.
 
Accounts can be merged, but only by staff.
 
And it takes 6 to 8 weeks....
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Exactly. If you come into the TL on a waxing gibbous moon and speak slowly the incantation "Moderatorus Archaicus, Storius Tellius", legend has it that a mod of old will appear and tell tales of horror of the devs being asked to unmerge accounts...
 
8:54 PM
or unmerge questions... unmerging is a certain idea of fun.
 
Zoe
I have a gif for this
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Was the mess that users gained privileges they didn't earn? Or was it that users get their accounts merged into other accounts against their will?
 
If the users are separate users, one of them lose the account...
 
Then unmerging is probably manual or such.
 
8:55 PM
@AnnZen Well imagine if your account was taken away and all your reputation given to someone else
 
git merge works better than account merge probably.
 
@Nick Then it's the latter.
 
Zoe
At least as long as you don't have conflicts
 
Ehhhh it's not all bad, they can just rollback the entire site :P
 
Zoe
Although that's not too bad with vim mergetool
 
8:57 PM
I used clearcase UCM a lot too. Merging is horrible in all systems
 
VS has a good conflict resolution tool as well
 
Zoe
Vim > everything :P
 
Best compare tool is beyond compare (3 way) IMHO, but the real answer is : the best tool is the one you're used to
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Can agree, I use it extensively at work
 
It's really a lifesaver.
 
Zoe
8:58 PM
I can second that last part ^^
 
I remember trying to back up my wife data from windows 7 boot console just before formatting the disk. All damn xcopy/copy commands just failed and didn't do what I wanted, I didn't have explorer running, but beyond compare was able to run graphically and I could perform the backups...
 
VS Code has a nice merge conflict resolution system built in
 

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