last day (1849 days later) » 

17:55
<I crack a bottle of champagne against the hull of this room, confetti falls from above>
2
it has been suggested that this room be named Argument Clinic.
7
Please take suggestions about MetaPython administration to MetaMetaPython
8
Or perhaps MetaPython - the Argument Clinic
18:05
So @PaulMcG you mentioned being nice to newbies. What did you have in mind? If it has to do with something I've done I suspect there's some misundestanding, and either way we should clear this.
I missed Kevin's comment in the SO room meeting, but it's a good suggestion and should have been a resolution, which I would approve: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47859505#47859505
@smci I agree. cc @Kevin
well, yeah, having been in some FB chat groups the [RoomOwner] might have some merit -...
18:08
I don't remember making that actual suggestion. What I meant was, that was the only thing I could think of that was any kind of proposal for self-improvement, not having grokked that the agenda points were the actual list of previously decided such proposals.
in Python, 2 hours ago, by PaulMcG
I didn't even realize there was an actual list of specific issues to be worked on (never having attended a room meeting before). The only issue I can think of recently is "be nicer to green beans". It would help if this list were more prominent in some way.
And I thought that wasn't just a Room 6 thing, but SO generally
@AndrasDeak Right, we all agree on that. But then that's implicitly disagreeing with Antti's suggestion the room be named Argument Clinic.
@PaulMcG Aaaah OK :)
@smci how so?
@AndrasDeak (That was a Python joke for you)
18:10
ah, sorry
@smci no it wasn't
@AnttiHaapala Very meta, sir.
@PaulMcG Yes it would be a good practice for the chair to quickly discuss procedural, give the agenda link again, and also restate "the floor will be opened for non-agenda items at the end". But the agenda was mostly discussion items, not resolutions. It can be useful to ask people "Each of you try to frame a concrete resolution [on a topic]".
@AndrasDeak Oops, I did make that a resolution in my mind but forgot to say it in chat, I think. Here's what I have written down.
resolutions:
- kanban for resolutions
- respond to pings about resolution updates in a useful manner
- strip the room description down to just links, with rules first, then formatting, and perhaps also a link to the wiki. Urls will be shortened with whatever reputable link shortener is available.
- remove link to spoiler page in room rules until functionality is restored
- add an explanation of userscripts to the userscript page.
- add a section to future room meetings for proposing the chairman
@Kevin that's how I thought of it too
@AndrasDeak @PaulMcG were you talking about being nice to newbies in general? (can you make specific propsals?) Or the problem types like help vampires? people who post walls of code without any clear question? ask for offtopic recommendations, free coding labor or essays on language design? Either way specific propsals could be good.
18:24
I thought it was a room-6 issue, but it seems he meant it as a systemic SO issue, at which point my interest decreases greatly (the subject has been given a lot of attention on the metas)
18:38
Sorry, I stepped away to assist a co-worker, and then pop lunch in the uwave
The resolutions kanban is up. And look! There are two finished items already. The system works!
@Kevin \o/
thanks, Kevin
I'm mildly concerned that there are some resolutions that are like "change your behavior in this way, and continue forever". Do we just keep those in the todo column indefinitely, or...?
perhaps it's reasonable to file a commitment as "done" and if we regress it can be raised at a meeting
I think I can make a custom column, too. "Ongoing" or something.
18:47
it should be clear what the difference is vis-a-vis "in progress", though. To me as a non-native the distinction is less obvious
@smci Again, it was not my suggestion, proposal, or idea. I was just commenting that "be nicer to new people" was all I could think of that might qualify as a previously agreed-upon resolution to do better.
"forever" works
So it shall be
Here's a concrete suggestion on how to be nicer to the new people: identify those with low-rep (<100, say?) who have posted a good question, or a good first-time question especially, and compliment/congratulate them in a comment for posting a high-quality question.
wim
wim
@Kevin that's cool
but the statistic that I thought was more interesting was that there are 500+ users with gold on main, and only ~2% of them bother to come into chat
2
seems kinda low? but I guess it's not low relative to other rooms, just that SE chat sucks.
oh congrats to @AndrasDeak btw, who looks like just got their gold badge -- 2019-11-04 20:23:52 Andras Deak 23165
19:03
Thanks
@PaulMcG "Be nicer to new people" is too vague to be actionable; some people think it means "allow people in the chatroom who post walls of code without clear questions/spammers"
@PaulMcG "compliment/congratulate them in a comment" is vague: do you mean in the Python chatroom, or on their SO question, or both? (I assume you mean the latter, which IMO doesn't do much. If you meant the former, then that's essentially making them aware of, and inviting them to the chatroom. But currently the chatroom skews heavily towards gold-badgers. If you're suggesting changing that, there are pros and cons. There is no chatroom Python-Beginner, for example)
use it wisely :)
wim
wim
19:18
Hello MetaMetaPython! Who is "owner" for the site code - no commit since Feb 2018 github.com/sopython/sopython-site Is there someone we can pester to get issues fixed, or pull requests merged?
I meant a comment on their posted question. You think id doesn't do much, but you may be underestimating the value of getting a compliment from a senior user, especially when you are just a beginner.
> @smci Again, it was not my suggestion, proposal, or idea. I was just commenting that "be nicer to new people" was all I could think of that might qualify as a previously agreed-upon resolution to do better.
@PaulMcG I understand where you're coming from but you'd have to be careful not to make it sound snarky or condescending
I've left such comments a few times, but took my time writing them
@wim Nominally, davidism. He's quite busy these days, though. I think I have the power to accept PRs for SOPython projects although I'm not sure if that directly affects the site.
wim
wim
Right, but I think he's probably too busy these days, hands full with pallets - could davidism add other people as admin?
need other people to be able to fix bugs and deploy the site
First we need someone who's able and willing to do that ;-) I've got a bit of spare time, but deployment has never been my strong suit
If we can simplify it down to a big red "DEPLOY" button, I could press that button.
wim
wim
19:25
well it could be a fun thing to learn, if you're interested
@smci I definitely agree that "be nicer" is not the same as "be a doormat" or "just let yourself be taken advantage of".
Hmm. I think I'll see if I can get davidism on the horn to see what he's receptive to.
wim
wim
@davidism are you open to moving the site to a heroku deployment or something?
@AnttiHaapala +1
@wim Yes, and also expected the low participation would be discussed, in part under the heading of 'unwelcoming' [including to experienced users], which is something that has come up for the last three years both in the room and in room meetings. But it didn't. I do want to know the reasons why some experienced users who visit the room and don't come back.
Sorry, I'll move that over to the meta room
9 messages moved from Python
wim
wim
19:35
I think Andras is doing a good job, but he's pretty much the only one actually moderating
3
I don't think more moderation is needed in the first place
wim
wim
If he gets bored of it or has to leave, I'm not sure who will pick up the slack (if anyone)
it's more about me being the first to the pole, because I'm almost always around
we discuss moderation events amongst ourselves and I don't think there'd be qualitative difference if I was gone
I like to tell myself that I could do about as much as Andras, and I don't currently do as much because he puts his RO hat on five seconds faster than I do.
Remains to be seen whether that's actually the case though.
wim
wim
there are a tonne of RO's (12), but most of them don't really do anything and some of them don't even visit here anymore
can the ones that are not even pingable anymore just be removed?
19:40
I don't think so, there's no disadvantage to having a longer RO list
wim
wim
I guess not
it does seem like you have bus factor of 1, but you've never gone on holiday for 2 weeks so we'll see what really happens :D
Was this room created as a result of the morning meeting?
wim
wim
yep
Morning, hah!
Exactly one half of it was in the morning, for me
19:45
@PaulMcG Oh I see. "Be nicer to new people" was too vague and undefined to be marked as complete, by definition. And it would be hard to formulate good metrics.
wim
wim
it's about 1 year overdue but there is finally a place to discuss matters about the room itself without clogging up the room
That's great. A place to discuss policy and moderation, and call out bad practices without polluting the main chat, why didn't we think of that sooner :P
^^ Kevin'd
we imagined having a standalone place would be best, but as things turned out it ended up being nothing which is worse than something (again, sorry)
wim
wim
Can we fix the spoiler script before AoC starts?
19:47
we'll try
I merged the PR that ostensibly fixes it, and have prodded davidism for deployment
It'd be nice if somebody could summarize the minutes of the meeting, particularly the useful action items brought up. Or would it be enough to just read the starred comments? :P
@AndrasDeak Actually there are big disadvantages to having lots of dormant/inactive ROs. a) It was misleading to me for years that ROs are not moderators, even though they perpetually self-describe what they do as "room moderation". This genuinely causes major confusion about who is/is not what and what rules/policies they follow. b) ...
@cs95 if you read to the end there are summaries
looking
19:52
@smci because room moderation is what we do. This is why I keep correcting people when they call us "room moderators" or "room admins". The term is "room owner" and it's easier to use technical terms for technical concepts.
chat is infamously an orphaned child on SO which is also reflected in features and documentation, so I'm not sure this is mostly our fault
and to be clear when I say "I'm not sure" I really mean "I don't think"
...b) When davidism tells me "ROs already talk with other ROs all the time about current issues, and will discuss actions they take", definitely not the inactives one, presumably not the dormant ones, and all us users have zero transparency about whoever's left. The RO list should be trimmed. There is some vague process about how ROs are created, but none about how they leave/retire/become inactive.
@AndrasDeak Actually no, some ROs describe what they do as "moderation". Without any qualifier. And that genuinely causes confusion: although I'm an SO user since 2009, I only figured out a few months ago that most ROs are not moderators. That's quite important.
If you read again what I wrote you didn't contradict me
Feel sorta bad about the de-emphasis on the salad language because I feel like we're losing a part of the room's culture that's been around for years, but I understand the decision.
At least the way I meant it: I didn't say "we say room moderation". I said we say room moderation, because that's what we do
We don't do "room owning" when we moderate. We moderate when we moderate.
Just because we have "moderators" as a special role on SO doesn't magically make our work not moderation. See also the "user-moderator" concept on SO main (referring to high-rep regular users taking great part in moderating main).
FWIW I think the ROs are doing a great job of not allowing the room to set itself on fire, so I don't think there's much to complain about; besides the fact that only a fraction of the ROs actually are involved in the room and its moderation
20:02
@AndrasDeak I actually did, and I had read it. Some ROs are not subject to any accountability chain, and there is not consensus on what SO policies apply here (viz. 'Whether "Be nice" applies, and specifically what it allows/forbids, and who arbitrates that, and what happens when the arbitration makes mistakes'). It's misrepresentation to call what informally-appointed ROs in a chatroom do "moderation". Call it "chatroom adminstration" or whatever.
I think that's a little concerning, but if it ain't broken... right?
@smci be nice and the CoC always apply in chat.
It's applicable everywhere on the network
@AndrasDeak You say that but there are blatant counterexamples, and I've linked to several today alone. Also no answer to "...and who arbitrates that, and what happens when the arbitration makes mistakes". Short answer: nobody really.
> moderation:
2. An instance of moderating: bringing something away from extremes, especially in a beneficial way
3. The process of moderating a discussion

moderate:
3. (transitive) To preside over (something) as a moderator
4. (intransitive) To act as a moderator; to assist in bringing to compromise

moderator:
1.3. (Internet) A person who enforces the rules of a discussion forum by deleting posts, banning users, etc.
@smci locally room owners, above them moderators, above them SO staff. As we've said already, everyone is welcome to subject us to scrutiny of those above us.
wim
wim
@cs95 agree. It used to be a lot worse, things have dramatically improved.
20:07
Certainly such "blatant counterexamples" make it easy to debunk the oppression that keeps going on in the room
Certainly you wouldn't trust us to investigate ourselves, so I think our job in this matter is done for now
@AndrasDeak When a RO habitually incorrectly describes themselves as "moderators" or what they do as "moderation", it causes confusion, and implies other moderators have reviewed or implicitly support their actions, which is factually incorrect. As I said, I've been an SO member for 10 years, but only found out months ago that ROs aren't moderators, in large part because of the way some ROs self-describe.
I'm not joking when I say I enthusiastically encourage people to go over our heads. If a blue diamond puts on his blue diamond hat and says "time to put down the reins", I'll go without complaint.
That's Kevin speak for "if you have a problem, take it to a mod"
@wim and @cs95 We all acknowledge the work done by Andras and other ROs on the spam-fighting front, nobody's said otherwise.
@cs95 This isn't just about me. Do you think there is clarity in the chatroom about which SO rules like "Be nice" apply in chatrooms, and specifically what they allow/forbid, and who gets to arbitrate? What if anything can be improved on that?
that information should be (and some of it probably is) on meta.SO and meta.SE
20:28
@AndrasDeak No, much of of Meta.* is discussions not hard rules. And even where there are rules they're sometimes not followed. And when they're not followed there often isn't oversight or accountability. You're aware that other people were raising that about the Python chatroom before I ever became active. Hence my point very much stands.
wim
wim
there was one thing I wanted to bring up in the meeting but I had to leave
@AndrasDeak For example, characterizing my remarks as claiming "oppression" is intentionally disparaging, which is a Be Nice violation. It's like going in circles. I give you an opportunity to retract that and apologize for writing it.
@smci you said it's not just about you. I'm not talking just about you.
wim
wim
the room rules page is way too long.
if you want newcomers to read it, I really recommend distilling this down to maybe 5 or 6 of the most important things.
and list them in order of most important to least
20:32
Well in accordance with the resolutions passed today, it's about to become one line shorter. And one line longer.
wim
wim
remove all the useless stuff about cute fluffy animals and salad language
I don't think it's beyond the land of reason the expect one person once in their life to read a pageful of text if they want help. Who doesn't come for help usually doesn't violate the rules.
@wim do you really think that salad and cute animals are the reason people keep posting their new questions to the room, just to name one typical mistake?
people, especially ones with fresh questions, like asking more than reading
wim
wim
no I think that if you want the room rules to be taken seriously
make it short, concise, professional
@wim Good point, what are specific suggestions to improve it? Categories like "What can I ask here and how should I phrase it?", "What should I not ask here?", "Please follow the Formatting rules...", "What are the preferred ways to post and fornat code?"
wim
wim
if newbies don't bother to read it, I can hardly blame them. It's too much, full of minor nits, and doesn't get to the point.
20:36
...like we prefer actual code than a) pastebin links esp. with 1-day expiration b) screenshots of code/noetbooks c) third-party code-posting sites, DropBox et al.
@wim I think we can accommodate everyone if we boil it down to categories: "What can I ask here and how should I phrase it?", "What should I not ask here?", "Please follow the Formatting rules...", "What are the preferred ways to post and format code?"
Like, let's try to hammer out "What should I not ask here?"
No amount of pandering will make people read the rules. At one point we should draw a line and expect users to pull their weight. If reading 20 points that literally fit on my laptop screen is too much to ask for, then so is our help
wim
wim
I think you're wrong
it starts out with a link back to the chat room, and a big blob of text about what the chat room is, which is exactly where 100% of people are going to be coming from in the first place
then it talks about salad and spoilers first and foremost, which is totally the wrong place for talking about that
I'm not saying it's necessarily perfect, we could certainly restructure if necessary. But to redact it to comply with infinitesimal attention spans? Nope.
@wim Wim's right that it is verbose and starts out too jokey (maybe we should have a 'Room Culture' section below 'Room Rules'?). Wim, can you type up your suggested room rules? Do we think they should contains categories like "What can I ask here and how should I phrase it?", "What should I not ask here?" or not?
wim
wim
by this time user has determined the page is a joke and already closed the tab
it's not about redaction, it's about effective communication.
20:43
Interesting, the rule page links to meta.stackexchange.com/questions/271267/… which details how chat moderation works, including categories of room owners and moderators!
quite the resource we have there
I wasn't there to defend my gitlab suggestion, so tough luck to me. If I can make something viable of it in my downtime then the suggestion seems to be "we can't stop it" so I'll post back if I set something up :)
1 message moved from Python
@AndrasDeak That's no use when there is huge confusion about which RO is and isn't a moderator. How about the SO room rules has a concrete list: "The following people are ROs. None are moderators except where indicated."
@roganjosh please do
just because we don't think it's necessary it can be useful to others, if someone takes their time working on it
For sure. I don't think it was dismissed unfairly btw, I just wasn't available to give my case
20:48
yeah, sorry it turned out that way
eh, happens
@roganjosh I didn't know whose suggestion it was, but general reaction was it seemed like soliciting more volunteer effort to maintain something else, which we can get by without. IMO if there is a good chat discussion that would be on-topic for SO, where possible I try to distil it into a question/answer, or suggest the poster to do it themselves.
I would have spent more time playing devil's advocate for the gitlab proposal, but I was entering speedrun mode at that point so we'd finish in under two hours
I did intend to be there. You don't get to control my schedule (or, if you do, could you wipe meetings off it please?:P)
tell your boss you had important things to do
20:50
See, if I had an invitation with a wax seal, that adds real weight to the request. Can we have that for the next meeting, please?
we'll need the insignia of the Manchester mafia
The imprint of a knuckle duster?
that would be classy
@wim Kevin already said he'd remove the salad language. Can you outline what else you suggest as more concise?
(I know what you mean but now I'm imagining cleaning fluffs you can attach to your hand)
20:54
The light touch. Like "You're cordially invited" guff that nobody takes seriously. Sealed with a punch from a feather-duster-adorned fist
@smci salad language is only getting removed from the room title.
Jon proposed to remove salad in his message at chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/6?m=47858861#47858861. From context, I'm pretty sure he means from the room title. I don't recall seeing a proposal in the meeting to remove it from the rules.
wim
wim
it should be removed from the rules too. because it is not a rule.
and it has an entire section devoted to it, which you can see clearly on the top bar.
It's not a rule, and it's not listed among the rules. It's important information for those who do read the page.
wim
wim
it's not important information.
21:00
@wim nobody reads banners
@wim "what mean cbg?". How many times have you heard that?
wim
wim
many times, and it's annoying.
but the correct solution to that is users not saying cbg in the first place, not adding a section in the rules about what it means.
I see. So this is an XY problem
I really don't want to start putting on my RO hat to make people stop using "cbg"
we should separate your concerns about salad itself from your concerns about the room rules page
wim
wim
they are separate
21:02
To be honest I've never been super enthusiastic about salad, but [let people enjoy things dot png] and all
wim
wim
what benefit does it have? nothing
Salad is a given, whether you like it or not. I chide people who go out of their way to badger new users with it, but you can't make it go away.
wim
wim
what downside does it have? confuses new users, makes the room cliquey
"Force everyone to stop using cbg" is a non-starter. "Move the salad guide somewhere less prominent" is a possibility.
levity in an otherwise quite dull world of just looking at factual things like documentation all the time?
wim
wim
21:03
there are plenty of hilarious jokes in rm 6
kevin in particular is very quick witted
wim
wim
the salad thing is neither funny nor interesting, but I'm not going to rail against users for doing it
You've already complained about my discussions with Jon about music. I've stopped those. Now you want to get rid of salad
wim
wim
well now, that's not what I said.
It only came up because it is a crufty thing on that important page, I never said to ban it in the room.
Sure, I know what was said, and maybe I overstated it. But in deference to you catching up over the weekend, I don't want to fill your reading with spam
wim
wim
21:06
@roganjosh thank you, I appreciate it
But if you just want to turn on salad next, I think you're aiming for something quite sterile
wim
wim
I like to go over the transcript for days I've missed, often times someone has a problem and I know exactly the tool or 3rd party library that will help them
if the transcript is too long sometimes I don't bother. and if there's too much off-topic stuff to sift through, that's a drag too.
oh, you meant music
or did you not?
wim
wim
I didn't get to click your link before you (removed) it
@wim what does "never said to ban it in the room" refer to?
21:10
@wim You would agree, though, that the "drag" of scrolling through comments is opposed to actually having a community?
wim
wim
saying "cbg"
OK, so my original message stands. It said: that kind of sounded like [banning it in the room]
wim
wim
nah
We can't allow people to use salad but tell them how
wim
wim
it was more like - are you annoyed by users saying "what's cbg"? then the easy fix is not to do that in the first place
21:14
But it does seem a little like that. I'm being deliberately facetious: Why should I care about your need to scroll past some messages where I'm bonding with another regular room user? Do we not both help others freely in the room?
And cabbage is bundled into that too. What is your ultimate point here?
wim
wim
I guess because music is such a personal thing and others might not share your tastes there, it's better served in a different room or a private discussion
to be honest music is a huge part of my life too, but it's not on-topic in rm 6.
does that answer your question?
and it's not particularly about music either, any long protracted discussions which are only being participated in by 1 or 2 users AND are off-topic, I think should be moved elsewhere
@AndrasDeak Oh. @wim has a point (the first five times I looked at the rules I couldn't tell if they were a joke or not - and most users probably won't ever read them more than once). Can't we move it to 'Room Culture' and put that below 'Room Rules'? I think that's an accommodation that keeps everyone happy.
But I said it earlier, it makes things sterile if you just want to focus on Python all the time. Plenty of people can get engaged in a debate about music. They tend to to; fine.
wim
wim
disagree, it wouldn't make things sterile (to ask long off-topic discussions between 2 users to "get an inbox")
we have many interesting and humorous on-topic discussions
and a period where the room is quiet is ok too
We'll disagree on that, then
21:19
I think downtime is fine in the room, but I also think that when there's no other discussion going on then music and similar off-topic is fine among regulars. It's not very hard to scroll past these in the transcript.
@AndrasDeak Oh I see. (I thought the meeting item was about removing it in general, incl. from room rules)
nope, just the title
I also don't want this to be focused just on my discussions with Jon; this is a more-general point. Our music discussions in downtime are objected to, and now salad. I'm not up-in-arms about it, but I do wonder what wim thinks the room should be
The reality of our life is that we must be stuck behind a screen
Maybe room 6 is not the place for general chat, but I will still argue that wim is stripping away some vital bonding points here
Well, at the end of the day we have a community, and people are diverse with diverse tastes and preferences. We try to navigate this quandary to the best of our abilities to ensure that everyone helpful finds the general atmosphere acceptable.
I think ROs are the best source of truth as to what constitutes a "problematic discussion", period
21:27
@roganjosh IMO I think that sort of thing in Python room is fine as long as it's downtime and it's not disrupting active discussion(s). Some people criticized the long (on-topic) discussion I had with Code-Apprentice starting Oct 4, but that was in the middle of the night for everyone else...
wim
wim
I think the room should be Python discussion, primarily, but not to a point that we need rules forbidding music discussion!
I just ask - why don't you start a music chat room? maybe there already is one?
There are probably many people on stack overflow interested in chatting about music that aren't just from the python tag, you might meet some new interesting users that way
to be fair a music room would probably be off-topic on chat.SO
There was one I think. It flopped.
Hmm, "music" has "muse" in it.
That's... amusing
21:30
...And I wouldn't have bothered engaging with an individual user's repeated questions if people felt it should be shunted into a special room as "too specialized". But equally the OP's posted questions on SO couldn't be answered as they were way too vague (and not even directly Python-related, as we found out in the end). I was trying to help the OP formulate a specific on-topic question. I think the only lesson was to disengage if for whatever reason that doesn't seem to be possible.
But "music" is a red herring a bit here, I guess. I just mean that your idea of the room @wim is more strict than mine
wim
wim
@AndrasDeak does any one care ?
there is a Duck Overflow room
Not necessarily. Duck Overflow is about latex->TikZ
wim
wim
oh ok
I really thought it was about ducks ... 😄
a lot of things are tolerated until someone notices/takes offense
wim
wim
21:32
but I doubt stack exchange give a darn what chat rooms people create here, as long as it's not like a white supremacist room
It's more subtle than that, as it often is. For instance foreign-language rooms are only tolerated as "if there's a single flag from the room we're freezing it", because mods can't read the discussion so they can't moderate it
if you manage to keep a room below the radar you technically can use a foreign language there, but if theres a blip it's over
I'm not saying a music room would be the same, just that there's subtlety
wim
wim
@roganjosh I thought I am like the least strict guy here
Oh my. That's a joke, right?
wim
wim
it's more like "hey, that thing is annoying (for at least 1 person), maybe is there a better place for it?"
and whether you choose to acknowledge that or ignore it is entirely up to you
@roganjosh no
Sure, in that instance, I can't fault you
But you are well known to have strong opinions
wim
wim
21:36
it's strong opinions about coding stuff
I'm not for banning much of anything, personally I don't think we should even ban curse words, as long as they aren't used in an offensive or weaponized way
I'll support that
@wim and a tendency to see things in black and white
In an odd way, I think we're getting towards a consensus
wim
wim
@AndrasDeak really?
Yeah, that's my constant impression
21:39
@wim I will try to limit my discussions about music but I'd rather be in the main room. Perhaps I've misread your intentions; I think you're a bit more moderate here than I read
Not judgment of course, just statement of fact on my part
And by "I read" I mean that comments are just in text, so I have to assign intent
wim
wim
badgers do have poor eyesight, but your avatar appears to be a shade of green..
@roganjosh text is notoriously bad for that
you should come to pycon some time, you can meet several people from the room there including myself
It was easier to fly about on other people's money :P. I'm not so sure I'll be able to any time soon but I think I have a better understanding of you from this :)

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