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3:13 AM
I know there is a rule against people posting questions in chat that were also recently posted in main. But tonight I saw a case of this where the question itself was not really well worded. I think helping someone clear up a confusing question would be a good use of chat, certainly better than a long chain of comments on the question itself.
 
3:45 AM
@PaulMcG Yes, people are allowed to ask for help to improve their fresh question. I suppose we could make that clear in the room rules...
in Python, Mar 25 at 13:18, by PM 2Ring
Also, anyone is allowed to link a fresh question in order to ask meta questions about it, i.e., they want help in improving the question & they aren't mentioning it here in chat because they expect us to answer it.
However, it can be difficult explaining that clearly to some people. And they may get frustrated that we won't just answer their question.
 
4:04 AM
@smci There's a list of the room owners on the info page, and it's pretty clear if a RO is a diamond mod.
 
4:23 AM
@PM2Ring No, what has caused confusion is some ROs have self-described what they are and what they do as 'moderation', for a long time. That misled me. There have been discussions before I was ever here about SO policies not being upheld in Python room. So it's not clear who's bound by what, or who has recourse to what process. "ROs in general are not moderators except where otherwise indicated" is crystal clear.
 
4:55 AM
@smci Ok. Andras already spoke about the use of the word "moderation", the Help privileges page also uses that term to cover a lot of things.
@smci I don't know what you're referring to with "SO policies not being upheld in Python room". The ROs do uphold SO policies. FWIW, we're somewhat stricter than many chatrooms regarding swearing. We also have our own policies, in particular, not asking for answers to fresh questions, but that doesn't go against SO policy
 
 
4 hours later…
8:39 AM
@PM2Ring if a new user puts their question into chat with the intention of improving it, getting the (then improved) question answered quicker on SO due to "advertisement" on chat seems totally legit to me and a nice motivator to improve questions.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:05 AM
@MisterMiyagi it is. Also 90% of cases people in the room start giving technical help regardless. Nobody cares about the rules enough to stick to just meta-help.
@PaulMcG if you mean chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47863277#47863277: "drop a single link into the room without so much as a hello" is a scenario that I will always trash on sight
(And downvote if deserved)
Their first message came 40 minutes after the link.
 
 
5 hours later…
4:05 PM
I praise the wisdom of the room owners in creating a meta room. Well done.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:08 PM
I like that there is an easy link to this room from the Python room, and vice versa.
For the next room meeting, I suggest a meeting rule where we don't spend time wishing SO had features that it doesn't have. Doesn't really move the meeting forward, and past experience shows that requesting SO enhancements is largely a futile exercise. Probably legit discussion material here in MP though.
 
@AndrasDeak That rule would be ok, but the Room Rules currently read as if that behavior is ok, they'd need to be edited to explicitly say "Introduce yourself before posting a question link". Because they currently say: "Asking a Question: ... If your question is >= 48 hours old and hasn't received a useful response, then you may link to it.... Ask your question directly." which pretty much says ...
...single links to on-topic questions (>= 48 hrs, 0 answers) would be ok to post (without necessarily any introduction or narrative).
 
@PaulMcG it's easier to effect change if we don't have to find suggestions/complaints under six feet of sarcasm
 
@smci - in this case, the link was << 48 hours, no intro, no additional posts, just the link
 
@smci rules of common courtesy still apply everywhere, but I value your input
 
@AndrasDeak ??? I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do like these links
 
6:14 PM
@PaulMcG I didn't know, I was responding to what Andras said: "drop a single link into the room without so much as a hello" is a scenario that I will always trash on sight
 
@PaulMcG ??? I can't see any links :D
 
@PaulMcG those are the rooms you're in ;)
Sorry for the misunderstanding
 
@AndrasDeak That's dangerously vague though. Wrt posting links, everyone will have a different subjective concept of what the "rules of common courtesy". Since the rules strongly imply that posting a single link to on-topic questions (>= 48 hrs, 0 answers) without introduction or narrative is allowed, then that will be ambiguous. Personally, taht's ok with me, one thing I find annoying is people who write long paragraphs or stream-of-consciousness comments of self-introduction, without posting...
...specific question. Or lin to specific question. Or even worse, a copy-paste of bad code. Or even worse a copy-paste of someone else's bad code/ tutorial they tried to hack up, especially if it doesn't run, or has bad syntax, or they don't understand what it's for. Like the guy who kept bugging us saying "I'm not a Python programmer... I found this on some blog... it still doesn't work... I need to get this to work... my boss needs this by Monday"
 
@smci I just mean "hi" and maybe some info what they want us to do
Close it? Answer it? Tell them if it needs editing? MCVE all over again
 
6:18 PM
@AndrasDeak So I am still "in" the room even if I have closed all tabs to it (though now that I think of it, I may have a tab open on both laptop and desktop...)
 
@PaulMcG yeah. You can leave by clicking the "leave" button on top (for that room) or leave the other rooms by clicking the "horizontal line under uparrow" icon next to the room name in the "other rooms you're in" list.
 
@AndrasDeak Yes and I agreed that would be ok to change the Room Rules to say that. They currently don't, and imply the opposite. Suggest changing to "Introduce yourself briefly before posting a question link, don't just post a link without any context"
 
@smci okay
 
@AndrasDeak Right but it should be obvious from the question what stage they're at. If they have no MCVE, I drop them a comment on the question saying that. If it's good, on-topic and has MCVE and I'm able to answer, I'll answer. If it's phrased so narrowly/ mistitled/ mistagged/ misleading MCVE/ too context-specific that it's unlikely to attract answers, then I drop them a comment on the question saying that. If it's a (blatant) dupe, likewise. Otherwise...
... I will try to either comment before VtC, or else upvote any relevant comments explaining what they need to do to the question. Unless they're a serial offender or being rude or demanding or totally incoherent. I assume this is similar to how other users here react.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:05 PM
I wonder how long that room is gonna be active
 
9:19 PM
>Will these rooms exist forever?
>
>Rooms will exist indefinitely, so long as there is at least one person actively talking in the room. A room is considered worth retaining if it has more than 15 messages by at least 2 users.
>
>Rooms not worth retaining which are inactive for 7 days will be deleted. Rooms worth retaining which are inactive for 14 days will be frozen. Frozen rooms do not allow any new messages to be sent, and are not shown in the default room list to prevent cluttering the rooms interface.
 
only 14 days!
 
if it gets frozen we can flag for unfreezing if needed
 
I think that's broken. I recently saw a room listed that was abandoned 198 (I'm pulling from memory, maybe it was higher) days ago that I was in.
 
From this page: chat.stackoverflow.com/faq Can't speak to veracity thereof
 
It's legit. Though the chatroom filter might be borked.
There are also ancient rooms at chat.stackoverflow.com/… which seem to be unfrozen due to some bug
 
9:24 PM
IAE, we've certainly already met the 15 messages by 2 or more users
 
Yes, it won't get deleted. But it will get frozen after 2 weeks.
 
I've gone back to the specific room. Indeed, it's frozen.
 
@PM2Ring You totally misunderstood my comments. I'm not going to discuss publicly here. If you were a RO then you should have seen multiple issues in previous months; you can use the search button to find them. I'll merely restate "ROs in general are not moderators. They are [often] not being held to compliance with SO rules". Swearing has nothing to do with it.
 
He is a RO
 
wim
@AndrasDeak hmm, well we can hope we have the bug I guess
or someone make a bot account to do a keepalive ping every 14 days
 
9:29 PM
@wim no, the freeze script is working fine these days
if it sees daily use it won't freeze. If it freezes it's not seeing daily use. If someone eventually wants to discuss something there, they can let us know and we can handle the unfreezing.
 
@PM2Ring (then I still don't know if all you ROs get to see all issues raised, but simply reread them for the last year)
 
ironically this discussion should be in the other room, so I'll probably move it there
16 messages moved from Python
 
Perhaps I'm being simple, but I'm not really keen on this split. I understand the reasons but I'm not sure on the practicality
 
We're trying to figure it out. As far as I'm concerned, anything room-related meta should be here if it grows longer than three messages or so.
 
@smci Ok. I assumed you were going to discuss those things, since this is the meta room, but I certainly don't want to pester you about that. FWIW, I do read the transcripts of the Python room, and I honestly don't know about any incidents of the ROs not complying with SO rules. OTOH, I don't claim that all ROs behave perfectly at all times; after all, we're only human.
 
9:37 PM
a screenful of discussion is a good sign it should be here
 
Who is benefiting from the two rooms? We're still having the discussion in the same interface. Anyway, I'm interested to see it play out, but I'm not sure it works
 
The original intent was to have a channel where people can raise their concerns about how we run the room. But having a separate "complaint room" makes less sense than having a more general "meta room" while we're at it. At least that's my take.
 
The original idea was to have some kind of private / anonymous channel for complaints about room policy & ROs. Obviously, this room doesn't offer privacy, but I guess it's better than nothing. ;)
 
Sure and I don't fault the Ro's at all btw, but I think practicality is gonna trump over this effort. Which is a shame
Still, I'll do my best to buy in to the idea :)
 
It's practical because complaints can be made here, without ensuing discussion flooding the main room. Where is the impracticality?
 
9:47 PM
That I now have 2 chat rooms open?
 
you don't have to, unless if you want to discuss meta and non-meta in parallel :P
 
Sure. But I can't stop talking :P
It feels clunky to do it this way but we're given and even-clunkier interface to work with
 
@roganjosh It's pretty easy to switch back & forth between the 2 rooms, even on mobile.
 
@PM2Ring it's not just that. I know your name, and that adds quite a bit to my consideration when I interact with you. While I appreciate the division between programming issues and meta issues, there is value in seeing it all play out in a single space. I talk a lot, and Andras can shut me up in a single comment, because I respect him. I'm not sure how offloading certain problems to this room will affect that
 
You won't have to shut up that often? :P
 
9:58 PM
:P
 
I don't intend to move all meta stuff here, if things can be discussed quickly. But many regulars have a tendency to drag on any debate, even if the original discussion is already over and closed, so it's not trivial
2
since we have the room we might as well make use of it
 
@AndrasDeak Right. We might as well keep it active.
 
 
1 hour later…
wim
11:07 PM
@roganjosh IMO it is good to keep that in separate room so it doesn't clog up Python discussion itself
@AndrasDeak +1
 

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