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12:02 PM
oook, I got so pissed off by those lists, I made a post out of those lists.
Not that SE cares.
@ZoestandswithUkraine that... might explain it, yeah.
 
Yeah, I've been looking at questions for other reasons, and all the ones I see that have relevant questions in the "Related" list have rq=2 in the slug.
Filtering on tag is better than everything I've seen the model spit out.
Even though it isn't that good.
Certainly not good enough to get prominent placement beneath the question.
@Stu Sorry, Stack Overflow doesn't do that sort of thing. It's stuck where it is now, until the next seagull manager finds an even more obnoxious place to put it (maybe between the question and the comments? or between random paragraphs? ) — user253751 2 days ago
 
@CodyGray unless they completely screwed the numbers, and the generated list is supposed to be rq=1 or rq=2 instead of rq=3 or rq=4, this is truly, utterly horrifying.
@CodyGray but the clickthrough rate, Cody! The rate! It increased!!!
 
Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. As much as I criticize AI's stupidity, it ought to at least be able to pick a list of related questions based on the tags. That's... well, obviously it's low-hanging fruit, and it's the kind of thing a pattern-matcher should be good at.
 
@CodyGray Replace the entire question page with "related questions" irreversibly when viewed
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Don't look now, but you just increased it a bunch more as you were checking to confirm how ridiculously unrelated each of those were.
 
12:08 PM
@CodyGray oh, no, I just used the browser built-in feature of showing URL targets on hover :) No clicks for them from me.
 
haha
damn web developers screwing up all our incredibly naively-obtained stats!
But wait... did you use one of those fancy browsers or proxies that fetches and pre-loads linked pages? :-O
@ZoestandswithUkraine So like we do when questions are closed as duplicates?
 
@CodyGray Exactly, but all the links are completely irrelevant
 
@CodyGray nope? Just the standard status bar feature of expanding the URL target on link hover :) Having to watch out for rickrolls made this a muscle memory action by now for me.
@CodyGray yeah, it should. I am so baffled by what I've seen just now, I am speechless.
 
2 mins ago, by Cody Gray
@ZoestandswithUkraine So like we do when questions are closed as duplicates?
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Adding rickrolls to the list of Related questions is about the only thing that would make the list worse at this point.
 
@CodyGray arguably, that would make it actually better?
 
12:14 PM
You mean you are not enjoying the long-game of trolling that the SE staff is playing on us?
You would rather they resort to baser tactics, like rickrolls?
 
I wonder what data they even trained the model on... Or is this a new way to collect training data 😆
 
@CodyGray yeees, I believe I'd prefer rickrolls. At least those are easily avoidable by exercising some basic vigilance about what you click :) On the other hand, there is no salvation from the torture of seeing the platform get dismantled in an attempt to jump onto the "AI" hype wagon...
I thought the company tries to be better, I really thought so. There were signs of improvement. Then the Wired article happened. Then the blog post. Then the "experiments". Then the layoffs. [I might be a bit wrong regarding the order, but you get the idea]. By now I am close to the boiling point.
And with all that, there is utter, complete silence from the company regarding any critical feedback regarding their "AI" bullcrap.
Sorry for a rant, I am really, heavily pissed off right now.
@AbdulAzizBarkat I really have no idea how they could manage to generate PHP, Python, Java, and DOM suggestions for TypeScript questions, Verilog for C++, etc.
 
Perhaps they forgot to do the backpropagation step.
 
Probably? Honestly, I don't know how could they get such ridiculously off-the-mark results...
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine They used to be better. But that appears to have changed. I mean, the CEO published a blog post that contained so many incorrect statements, it sounded like it was written by some journalist completely unfamiliar with the site or the company.
 
12:26 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine SE is starting a push to improve vote fraud tooling (which is good). I thought they were just trying to improve QOL and let us deal with it more efficiently. There's a new problem that's going to be introduced soon instead, that will significantly increase the amount of vote fraud we have to deal with. That's the only reason the vote fraud tooling is being improved, but it's nowhere near good enough to deal with the fallout of the thing being introduced
I'd detail what, but for obvious reasons, I can't. Keep an eye on MSE next week though
was it next week?
 
Using AI bots to answer unanswered questions?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine thank you for the heads up... Mind me asking to clean up the pieces if I blow up when it goes live?
 
yes, next week. Assuming they don't realise how much of a mistake it is and cancel it, of course
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I guess that's what moderators do? Especially these days...
 
But let's be realistic, they have more inertia than a supermassive black hole
 
12:28 PM
They seem to have the inertia of a blundering, arrogant idiot.
2
 
@CodyGray See the top pin in the mod room
 
you forgot drunk, @CodyGray
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I would, but eh... it's solidly a candidate for becoming the most downvoted post on MSE, if not on meta as a whole
 
@CodyGray yeah... I remember the warm feeling of "hey, I guess they have changed* back in the end of last year with all the initiatives followed by the "hopes crushed" one when it all started.
 
(MSO has a few posts that are more downvoted)
 
12:32 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine oh, my...
I... think... I don't even want to know what it is...
 
Oh wow.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine You don't. You really don't. But here we are
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Hmm by any chance is this related to the SG?
 
Well, in a not-at-all-shocking turn of events, all of my fellow network mods have said what I probably would want to say.
Perhaps better. I only skimmed the answers.
 
12:34 PM
on the plus side, I guess it's long overdue I had 10K on MSE...
 
@AbdulAzizBarkat no
 
Ok I guessed wrong then
 
But like, wow? How could someone come up with this?
Ugh, there's still stuff I want to say, but I just don't have time to post a detailed answer to stuff like this.
It's especially hard to justify considering that apparently all existing negative feedback is being completely ignored...
You're never going to guess it.
 
@CodyGray and watch as allllll the negative feedback on the mod team will be completely ignored
 
@AbdulAzizBarkat mods are under obligation not to disclose things willy-nilly that were revealed to them in private, let's not put them into an uncomfortable position. Seems like it is uncomfortable enough as it is :)
 
12:36 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine That's exactly what I mean.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine although I just got an uneasy feeling of impending doom.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine My bad😅
 
I mean, it's not all that interesting. It's just staff doing something so unbelievably dumb and totally against the entire original vision and motivating spirit for the site that... that it's unbelievable. That's what I meant by you're not going to be able to guess it.
 
I've more or less given up on feedback after being point blank ignored on feedback questions (see particularly my answers on FQWES)
 
FQWES?
Feedback Questions With Excellent Suggestions?
 
12:37 PM
first questions with extra steps; the staging ground
 
oh
 
Pancakes.
 
@AbdulAzizBarkat no worries :) I am dying to know myself. Oh, the horror.
 
Dunno why you need lots of rep?
 
@Enet4 "pls upvote my stuff pls"
@OlegValteriswithUkraine You'll die on the inside when you read it
 
12:38 PM
Rep would only be helpful if they changed their mind and deleted the whole announcement after announcing it.
 
Random remark about various URLs that brought me here, looks like GPT answers cannot be reliably detected, GPTZero is trash, i fed several ChatGPT written texts to it and it detects only responses that come from very low effort prompts, like "write me an essay about [something]"

at this point is better to put down the bad answers since looks almost impossible to deal with ChatGPT, I've wrote here just because I was curios about what was going on, I will live you alone now guys
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine it's great that I am dead inside already then!
 
@CodyGray And to read the extra spicy answers.
 
Oh yeah, that's right... MSE mods and staff love to delete things.
 
I happen to know that there are some in this category in the new CoC announcement and I can't read them. :[
 
12:38 PM
Another thing I love about MSO, we don't have that culture.
It's happened once or twice by staff, unfortunately.
 
@gabrielesilinic we're able to detect and dispose of GPT content quite efficiently. There's loads of giveaways, so it's not remotely impossible. It's honestly trivial a lot of the time
@OlegValteriswithUkraine you'll be even deader on the inside then :p
 
I don't recommend the super-dead realm.
 
@gabrielesilinic Using AI to fight AI sounds like a cool idea, and the irony is definitely appreciated, but, yeah, it doesn't work all that well in practice. That doesn't mean, though, that you or we have to give up all hope. It is possible to detect GPT-generated content with a high degree of accuracy, using the well-trained natural intelligence models that we have among the mod team who have been dealing with this since ChatGPT was released to the public.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine maybe it'll even act as a defibrillator from what I am seeing :)
something like the feeling of deep hatred keeping one alive
honestly, folks, I am scared. No joke.
 
@CodyGray I wish MSE had a close reason for stupid fucking announcements that need to be retracted and undone immediately
 
12:41 PM
Most of the time, it's going to just be a case where you see a well-written answer that is just completely wrong or BS.
@ZoestandswithUkraine Have you tried "This question does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community. If you have encountered a problem on one of our sites, please describe it in detail. See also: What is "meta"? How does it work?"?
 
0
Q: Question someone didn't like was closed for no good reason, as per usual

StackOverflowUser19983This question How can I generate random strings in Rust that match a given regex pattern? was closed for lack of "focus". It is focused on precisely one problem. As far as I can tell, people voted to close it just because they don't know the answer. In principle I see no reason why you couldn't d...

 
@CodyGray I believe folks tried :) They always get reopened by staff
 
I mean, yeah
I know how that works because people keep trying it with announcements on MSO. And I have, many times in the past, had to keep reopening them.
 
@NewPosts Yuck
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I'm not as scared as I am really, really worried. As usual, they're choosing to ignore feedback about glaring problems with their idea. Unlike the SG, this in particular will have a negative impact on mod workload and, more critically, the integrity of a certain system. It's not an end to the site, but it's a further nail in the coffin of its primary objective: being a high-quality Q&A site
 
12:45 PM
It... has a certain degree of merit/appeal, I have to say. But it has too many downsides and was evidently not sufficiently well thought out.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine I mean... I am really scared about seeing what you y'all are talking about. I am starting to suspect what this is going to be, and I don't like it one bit.
 
It would maybe be reasonable to say, "this is the direction we want to move in eventually"? But... yeah, a lot of stuff needs to be done first.
 
@NewPosts ew.
@NewPosts yeah, surely Wiktor doesn't know the answer. For sure.
 
@CodyGray I can understand it as a long-term goal, but as the site, its content, and its tooling currently stands? The negatives outweigh the positives, particularly when there isn't anything else done to balance it
 
@NewPosts as per usual? 12-day account?
 
12:51 PM
sus
 
oh, perhaps they deleted their account on SO once...
or just... welcome to SO!
 
@AndrewT. Looks like it
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Yeah, I think that's what I said :-)
@AndrewT. Usually in the past 12 days?
 
hopefully no meta effect of checking all questions which have been answered by them
 
I can't tell if their answers are in the answers or in the comments below the answers.
 
1:02 PM
wait
the question isn't asked by the author on meta
huh, no relation. Oh well
 
"no relation" Oh, they added a DNA testing tool for mods?
 
Of course! You haven't seen it yet?
 
1:26 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine That's extremely disturbing. Especially/even without sound
 
What did you expect from a Stack Exchange video?
Have you seen their ads for Teams on YouTube?
 
yikes
Read the room, SE
 
> I know plenty of you cringed when you saw the word “marketing.” A lot of engineers are allergic to marketing, especially when it comes to dev tools.
What does this have to do with dev tools?
 
@TylerH Sigh
"We just fired 30% of our staff, so here's how y'all can find new jobs, because we're too financially incompetent to keep paying you"
 
Wow, yeah, great career counseling services for former employees!
 
1:29 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine oh oops was it 30%?
 
I wonder if they had someone in the marketing or HR departments write that blog post before they themselves got fired?
 
I thought it was 10%
 
10% overall, 30% of which was engineering, IIRC?
 
Or 10% overall, resulting in a 30% cut of the engineering staff
 
1:29 PM
Got my numbers mixed up
 
oh phew
 
0
Q: Site asks on each new window to choose cookie settings whether I click one or not - how to stop it from asking again and again?

questionto42Today, I had a strange thing in the Cookie settings that I have never run into before. I had to click on the cookie settings again and again, at each new window that I surfed, although I was in the same Stack Overflow Stack Exchange. Until this day, I am pretty sure that I only had to click on th...

 
I left a comment criticizing it and referenced the percentage so I am glad I didn't goof on that
 
Something like that; numbers are hard.
 
@CodyGray apparently, by "dev tools" they mean "tools for developers", not "developer tools". Sigh.
 
1:32 PM
I don't really see how that helps it make any more sense.
 
Apparently they've been on a resume kick - meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389122/…
I don't pay much attention to the blogs
 
I usually don't read them, but I do notice the titles
since they are pinned near the top of every page
 
@CodyGray yup, it does not, it's just an explanation of the logic of the insane
 
@TylerH Yeah, same.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Is it possible they mean "developers who are tools"? :-)
 
@CodyGray or, given the recent trends, it might be "tools that are developers" :)
 
1:39 PM
Developer tools?
 
or those ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
2:25 PM
🚽
 
2:36 PM
@CodyGray because the ML method is only applied to old stuff, it isn't automagically applied to newly asked question
 
@KevinB hmm, not exactly? The cut-off date is the start of February, 2023?
 
yes, that's all old stuff
conveniently this means they also just reused the dataset from the initial test rather than improving it
 
@KevinB ah, ok, in that sense - yeah
 
i wouldn't be surprised if we go a year or two without it being used for anything past feb 2023
 
> I agree that the question seems stupid, but please consider my scenario first before downvoting.
Sounds like a great way to consider downvoting.
 
2:44 PM
@KevinB which seems to be a good thing, judging by how horrifyingly inaccurate the suggestions are...
 
i mean
they're better than the elastic search results
 
They are not.
 
@KevinB is this a joke..?
 
no, the ones i've looked at, the elastic search simply provides a list of high scoring questions based on the tags
 
and the ones that use the model..?
 
2:55 PM
where as ML provided questions that are actually somewhat related to the content of the question, when the title of the question isn't complete garbage
 
Whereas the ML method provides a list of high-scoring questions based on tags that are completely unrelated to the question's tags.
 
@KevinB can you point to an example, please? I've seen only utter garbage
 
i'll point to the one i pointed to during the expiriment if i can find it
 
Oh, the title of the question is the problem? You mean we need more AI to make the AI better?
 
@KevinB thanks - I am really curious. Especially since in the list I checked, the titles weren't even garbage. At least half of them clearly described the exact problem.
 
2:57 PM
for this question:
0
Q: Spring Configuration phase for Custom Condition

Number945I was curious to know what is the configuration phase (REGISTER_BEAN or PARSE_CONFIGURATION) used by spring if we define our custom conditions like this- class MyCustomCondition implements Condition { @Override public boolean matches(ConditionContext context, AnnotatedTypeMetadata metadat...

 
@KevinB oh, it's rq=4
 
is elastic
 
rq=3 seems to result in utter trash
 
might be that rq=4 is better
 
2:58 PM
that is what i saw during the expiriment
 
Maybe it used to be non-broken?
 
the ML model needs a decent title to work well
 
> URLs containing rq=3 or rq=4 indicate the related question is being recommended by the machine learning model.
 
if the title is "This thing doesn't work" it doesn't have anything to work with
 
I mean, the questions Oleg and I looked at at least had the name of the programming language in the title, yet the ML model always found questions about completely different programming languages (over half of them did have the name of that completely different programming language in the title).
 
3:00 PM
rq=3 and rq=4 should be the same dataset
 
@CodyGray I just checked @KevinB's example. It uses rq=4, while all those I've seen were rq=3. Maybe that's the reason?
 
3 is under question and 4 is on the sidebar
 
@KevinB if it's the same... then oh, gosh.
 
or.... the other way
i forget
but 3/4 is ML and 1/2 is elastic
 
The example you just linked has rq=4 under the question.
 
3:01 PM
rq=4 seems to be under the question and rq=3 are in the sidebar.
The problem is that all the lists with rq=3 is a complete, utter dumpster fire.
 
So maybe there's just something broken about rq=3.
 
can you link to one for me?
 
it's possible...
 
Like, they are pulling from the other end of the list, which contains the least relevant questions.
 
@KevinB sure, a sec
 
3:02 PM
24
Q: Are floatN_t in stdfloat guarenteed to be IEEE compliant?

Sourav Kannantha BUnlike fundamental types – float, double and long double – are the new floatN_t types in <stdfloat> introduced in C++23 going to be always IEEE standard binary floating point types? The cppreference page for fixed width floating-point does mention the bits of precision and exponent, which matches...

yeah that result definitely looks like a failure of the model
 
wonder why it failed so hard on that one
 
those seem utterly broken
while the one you linked doesn't. Oddly, the only difference I see is rq=4 instead of rq=3
 
IMO, take the php one and post on the graduation post about it
or make a new meta post
that's clearly not what it should be doing
the typescript question with php related results, that is
 
@KevinB way ahead of ya :)
 
3:06 PM
tldr, i see no reason not to constantly post about the failures of this system to get it improved
because they're not gonna roll it back
it has monetary value, in increasing impressions
 
already posted - if anything, it's a cathartic experience :)
even if I am pretty sure they won't even care
 
i would adone it as a separate question so that i tcan be 'd
might get lost where it is
here's an example where it worked wonderfully stackoverflow.com/questions/8844948/…
like 7 duplicates listed down there
5*
my 1==2==3 answer suddenly started getting upvotes again
 
@KevinB hmm, rq=4 again. Something's definitely borken with rq=3
 
(just followed the duplicate comment)
 
I give up then...
I don't know why those are so broken
 
3:19 PM
yeah, that's why i'm confused. i've seen the ML results be awesome compared to the old
these examples though... are just completely failing
at minimum it should be limiting results to within the same tag, which they said they were going to look into
 
that's why I am so baffled too
 
and if they're using the same dataset from februrary, they're most certainly not limiting by tag
 
@KevinB well, they probably looked into it. Deeply. In fact, stared at it. And then did nothing, per usual.
 
plus ofc, we can see that they aren't by looking at the results, ;)
 
yeah... either that, or they do but the implementation is simply broken :)
 
3:34 PM
So they’re removing the reputation requirement to cast votes, and now everyone can cast votes?
 
wazzat?
 
0
Q: Are requests for code on topic?

Aaargh ZombiesIs it on topic to submit a task that is required, and request a section of code to complete the task? For example: To request function to sort the contents of an array into ascending order base on their numeric value?

 
@Andreasdetestscensorship wut?
 
Or perhaps it’s even better: you no longer need to be logged in to vote.
 
you... don't need to even without the change? Although those votes are counted separately
Although making them count without login would be truly mortifying indeed :)
 
3:50 PM
did i miss a meta post?
removing the rep requirement to vote is great
 
@KevinB I believe you haven't (or I have too)
 
if they also turned not logged in votes to real votes, i wouldn't be worried about that being overwhelmingly positive votes
because it's not
 
4:06 PM
Maybe they’re legalizing targeted voting?
 
I’ve yet to see a source for what you were talking about
33 mins ago, by Andreas detests censorship
So they’re removing the reputation requirement to cast votes, and now everyone can cast votes?
we've certainly discussed this topic in the past week or two,
but there's been no meta post that I've seen that suggests this is a direction they're going
 
You might see one next week.
I happened to read the transcript of this room. ;)
 
i can't see them doing that, given how they want to increase upvotes, and how this would, increase upvotes, but also significantly moreso increase downvotes
 
That sure seems to fix the "not enough voting" problem, albeit in a way that throwing water to a computer fixes heating problems.
 
but i'd see this as generally a good change, because currently we just ignore voting entirely from the largest group of users who use the site
 
4:13 PM
Well, grab your popcorn. We'll just see how it unrolls.
 
i'd happily take a little more fraud if it means question and answer scores will become more representative over time of actual usefulness
 
@KevinB yeah, and the general direction of the company seems to be numbers over quality
See for instance the question recommendation graduation; they specifically highlighted the increase in comments, but not the content of the comments. The response could be overwhelmingly negative, or result in significantly higher amounts of noise
Or both
They care about numbers that make them look good, and nothing else
 
that's fine, when it aligns with a good feature for the community
 
It's not just about good features, it's also a matter of actual, increased value
I.e. increased content quality, increased correct voting, and reduction in noise and sources of moderation activities (I.e. reducing closable questions without humans being active anywhere in the loop to avoid it, reducing the influx of NAA, etc.)
Instead, we get clickthrough rates and comment count increases rather than an objective measure of value
In fact, the performance metrics used when determining whether a feature is good or bad tells you almost everything you need to know about a company and its direction
 
4:30 PM
i mean, if you're against a company doing things that make profit over things that wouldn't, i think that's generally a losing battle every time
 
well, purely quantitative analysis is the least-effort form of analysis, and SE's modus operandi is well-established to be put as little effort as possible, so...
 
i see no issue with taking wins when they come, regardless of whether the intent was to assist the community or not
 
more like if they come
 
i mean, improved related question is a win, clearly it is improved in some cases, where previously they were always bad
 
SE consistently picks metrics they can flex to shareholders and advertisers as a way to say "hey, we're active, advertise with us for tons of exposure", and that tells us something we've already known for a while: they're picking good for profit over good for the community consistently, and stuff good for the community comes second in the event it just happens to touch on some move they're making for profit
 
4:33 PM
yes
 
SE can build a Scrooge McDuck's pool of money for all I care as long as it benefits us too, however, they way they do things... Doesn't benefit anyone. Well, probably a couple of people.
 
it does benefit someone
Advertisers
 
i 100% agree with all of that, but we're still getting some value out of it in some of these changes, is all i'm saying.
 
no disagreement here?
 
obviously not the changes we need
given we've seen 10 years of constant decline and now 5 months of huge decline
 
4:34 PM
I disagree with life itself.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Isn't that the name of an anime?
Nope, confused it with youtube.com/watch?v=FoAaGR4at8I
 
it's only gonna get worse as we move into the summer months
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine I have no idea. I don’t watch a lot of anime. I usually watch compilers.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship You can do both! I certainly do :)
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine I've never actually looked at the translation for this, and it's not what I expected
 
4:37 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Neh, I’m busy getting a headache from playing Minecraft with 15 fps.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship laughs in RTX 3070
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine 3070 isn’t powerful enough to solve my lag.
 
🤔
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine I prefered the version from MafuMafu and Kobasolo
 
@NordineLotfi Linkie?
 
4:42 PM
Twinkie?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine sure, youtube.com/watch?v=eq8r1ZTma08 for mafumafu, and youtube.com/watch?v=FR91CB5SBWU for Kobasolo
@ZoestandswithUkraine technically isn't 1:1, as there probably better translation
 
@NordineLotfi there always is. Japanese is generally hard to translate from what I've heard
 
Indeed, it's really ambiguous. A meaningful language like that one is easier to understand on a meaning level than actual comparison with English counterpart.
eg: you can know what a symbol mean in different context and understand it but you can't always find a direct English translation
 
yeah. Japanese is next on my list of languages to learn, but I imagine it's a few years off still
 
I’ve heard Japanese is a very good programming languages.
 
4:48 PM
(removed)
 
Apparently, it’s great at controlling women.
Ok, enough of my stereotypical jokes.
Or maybe not.
 
You can go right ahead, but you can't get stars from those.
 
I’m sorry, but this kid outside my hotel room is giving me a headache.
So no more jokes.
You have been saved.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:54 PM
0
Q: Is passive-aggressive commentary in answers considered a violation of the Code of Conduct?

EJoshuaS - Stand with UkraineI recently encountered an answer that contains the following paragraph: I found this solution using ChatGPT, a large language model developed by OpenAI. Unfortunately, the StackOverflow community couldn't help me in any way. AI is superior in everything. I hope this will help you solve the probl...

 

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