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1:41 AM
@HenryEcker I think Catija is right, in that the proposed "usage guidance"... isn't actually phrased as guidance. For reference, whatever ends up in that "Usage guidance" field will be shown in the Close menu, as descriptive text below the "Brief description".
You can see an example in this MSE post about updating their "Relates to only one specific network site" close reason. The usage guidance proposed and implemented there was:
> Use this close reason if a question relates to one specific site only. Do not use this close reason for questions that relate to multiple sites, even if they focus on a specific site. Consider leaving a comment pointing the asker to the appropriate meta site for their question or editing to make it clear this applies to multiple sites. For more detailed information about the scope of this site, see the Help Center.
In short: it sums up when that close reason should be used, when it shouldn't, and provides additional guidance to the close-voter on other appropriate actions to take.
Some of this stuff might be redundant for certain close reasons, but the point is that the proposed usage guidance doesn't provide any guidance - it just says basically the same thing as the brief description (except in more words) and the post owner guidance/public guidance (which actually provides more guidance than this). It could be a good starting point, though.
So in this case, it could be something like:
> Use this close reason if the question is not about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers. Do not use this close reason if the question is on-topic for this site, even if it is relevant to other sites as well. If it belongs on another site, vote to migrate it instead; if it can't be migrated as is, consider leaving a comment pointing the asker to the appropriate site(s).
(That's just off the top of my head, though, so y'all will probably be able to come up with better wording than I can :P)
Hope that helps!
 
2:07 AM
@V2Blast I understood that bit. My mock of the dialogue shows it in situ. By that token none of our existing reasons give that level of guidance (which would be a different problem)
@V2Blast What is the distinction between public guidance and the usage guidance?
@V2Blast Sure this all seems reasonable to me. Though the migration piece is extremely difficult. Users with close vote privileges can only migrate to 4 sites (excluding MSO which I'm not really considering in this case). There are more than a 100 sites where it may be on topic that we can't migrate to and this reason is the one that must be used even if it would be high enough quality to migrate as-is.
 
@HenryEcker The usage guidance appears in the Close menu (when attempting to vote to close). The post owner guidance and the public guidance are shown to the author of the post and to other users, respectively, in the actual post notice that appears above a post that is closed with that close reason.
 
Presumably the difference is that one intends to guide close voters, and the other suggests how to handle the post once closed?
 
@HenryEcker I mean... Yes, that is true. I think the other close reasons could probably be improved as well, following the same overall approach (though I don't think it's necessarily urgent to do so or anything.
 
@V2Blast Sorry. I am aware of where the fields populate. I was asking what the difference between the two types of guidance should be. Just the focus? i.e. what to consider before closure vs after it has been closed
@RyanM Yeah that was what I was thinking
 
@HenryEcker Ah, yeah - it's as @RyanM said. It's the difference between providing guidance on when to choose that close reason in the first place, vs. explaining why the question has been closed and what (if anything) should be done about it.
 
2:14 AM
and yeah, the migration issue is tricky, because...well, we don't want people to migrate most off-topic stuff.
 
We very specifically avoided migration at all. It was proposed in the very beginning to include "flag for migration" in the public guidance (as done on MSE) but that was very quickly scrapped.
That said I have been looking to add something along the lines of "Do not use this close reason if it the question is on-topic for this site, even if it is relevant to other sites as well."
 
Your quote made me notice a typo in my own example text ("if it the question"), which I've now edited my earlier message to fix :P
 
I think that's sort of included in "not about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers"
@V2Blast zomg mawd abyoos
 
lol
 
@RyanM Which was Cody's perspective as well.
 
2:20 AM
@RyanM It's implied, yes, but the important thing is that this usage guidance is most useful to those who might not be as familiar with closing. Those who are experts on the site will generally already know when it is appropriate to close something with a certain close reason, and when it isn't - but this is meant to help those who might not be as experienced, so that the mods and community aren't having to deal with as many people misusing close reasons or close votes.
 
> This question is not about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers. This question may be on-topic on [another site](link to FAQ). If so, you can delete it here and re-ask it on that site. If it has answers that are worth keeping and it is less than 60 days old, you can flag it to request migration.
 
Ideally, good usage guidance here will create less work for the mods and the rest of the community later (having to clean up after people using close votes/reasons wrongly).
 
@RyanM That looks more like post owner guidance
 
Yeah.
Yours is a bit better, I think, actually.
 
> This question does not appear to be about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers. You can edit the question so it’s on-topic or see if it can be answered on another Stack Exchange site, but be sure to read the on-topic page for the site you choose before posting.
 
2:22 AM
yeah. I think that's better.
 
The "another Stack Exchange site" link be swapped for a FAQ if needed.
I'm wary of "leave a comment" in the usage guidance because we already have issues with people commenting instead of VTC
 
> Use this close reason if the question is not about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers. If it can be answered on another Stack Exchange site, also consider leaving a comment to point the asker to the appropriate site. Do not use this close reason if the question is on-topic for Stack Overflow, even if it could be answered on another site as well.
Reorganized my example text a bit to indicate that leaving a comment would be in addition to using the close reason, and to include the sites link :)
 
Hm we're very similar. This is what I was working on
> Use this close reason if the question is not about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers. Do not use this close reason for questions that are on-topic for $SiteName, even if it would be on-topic on another Stack Exchange site as well. Questions about $SiteName itself should be migrated to Meta $SiteName instead.
 
(That said, if the "leave a comment to suggest an appropriate site" bit is already in the in the public guidance, you don't necessarily need to mention it in the usage guidance as well.)
 
I think there's been some contention about migrating to non-SO sites, but I haven't run into anyone who is opposed to migrating meta questions to MSO
 
2:36 AM
@HenryEcker That looks pretty good to me :)
 
I'll shop it around a bit and see what people think.
@V2Blast I do really appreciate the help :)
 
@HenryEcker No problem!
Now I'm off to eat some dinner and maybe play some video games
 
 
1 hour later…
3:48 AM
The table, character counts, and all of the mocks have been updated to reflect the new banner text changes and updated guidance. Link to the answer on MSO
 
 
2 hours later…
5:19 AM
can anyone tell me what the heck I flagged as NLN here? The flag got declined, but I for the love of all things have no idea what I flagged there judging from the existing comments - have I misclicked?
 
5:30 AM
Maybe it was one of those lack-of-coffee misclicks.
 
It's possible the comment was removed and the flag was declined. Like someone used a HBA or U/U flag on a simply NLN comment. I believe Mods can't piecemeal decline comment flags
 
yeah, it seems like it was deleted, but I do not remember what exactly I tried to flag there :( Since I try to analyse every outcome, I am now wondering if it was legit decline, my misclick, or what you suggested above, @HenryEcker. Maybe I will be indulged :)
 
I'm sure a lurking mod will be along at some point. :)
 
that's the idea :)
 
Please try not to disturb mods while they are lurking.
 
5:44 AM
"I felt a great disturbance in the mods, as if millions of diamonds cried out, and were suddenly silenced"
 
5:56 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine You flagged a comment that said "Ah, thanks for the clarification, Cody!" which was insta-deleted and the flag marked helpful. However, on the question, you flagged the comment "4 downvotes before I have time to correct the bug. I've come to the lair of the downvoters." as NLN.
I'm honestly not sure why that was declined, other than maybe that just deleting that one (the only one you flagged) would make the following comments not make sense.
I deleted that one and all the ones responding to it soon after, because they were, in fact, all No Longer Needed.
 
ah, this one! Thanks, interesting
this one uttrely slipped my memory for some reason
 
Lack-of-coffee induced memory loss
 
hmm, I did reduce the intake to 3 cups a day lately, I see
 
6:27 AM
I don't know what's wrong, then. Three cups seem enough
 
 
3 hours later…
9:04 AM
-2
Q: Message "Edit queue full", but no indicator

U. WindlI tried to suggest an edit to a tag. When I tried to save, I got a message saying the edit queue is full. At that time there was a red indicator. Some later time there was no red indicator any more, but still I cannot save the suggested edit. Somehow that is frustrating.

 
 
1 hour later…
10:04 AM
-3
Q: How do I get 50 points

Josua WilsonI've been on stack overflow for almost a decade and still don't have 50 reputation points, which means I can't comment, asking questions in the beginning is really for the Pro's, this will eventually render stack overflow unusable for me, which would suck, I really like it, what can I do to get t...

 
 
3 hours later…
12:52 PM
-1
Q: Can we ask this question on Stack Overflow?

mgthebossWe would like to know if we can ask the following question on Stack Overflow. Question: Is this integration offered on any other platforms? https://www.integromat.com/en/integrations/google-cloud-dialogflow/google-email

 
1:15 PM
@NewPosts Yes, you can. But you shouldn't.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:52 PM
> In Europe, there is a presumption of innocence. On StackOverflow, it seems that we are shot as soon as we fart wrong.
 
Only if the farts are plagiarized.
Part of me is tempted to lift the review suspension since it was quite minor, and part of me doesn't want to touch ...all that.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:04 PM
0
Q: What should I do about a "not an answer" post posted by someone who has less than 50 reputation?

Mr DeveloperI often see that users of less than 50 reputation post something on a question such as, "This is not an answer, but I have had this issue too." I know that this post details more of what should be done if a user cannot yet comment, but what should I do about the "not an answer" post by the user? ...

 
5:29 PM
To me it seems like they simply misunderstood that they'd effecively be responsible for the edit they were improving
All they seemed to want to do was correct code further down the question, but got dinged for the edit someone else did. Yes, poor review, but why not leave an answer explaining the situation on their meta post and lift it, once they understand why it happened?
 
The dupe closure was intended as the explanation.
It appears that was not quite as clear as was intended.
 
6:14 PM
I decided to lift it, because the point's been made.
 
I'm mildly regretting my life choices right now
Around 1.5 hours ago, I made a list of 1.1k MSFTs and MTs. Found plagiarism on the first one, been stuck on that account alone for an hour just deleting posts
 
I've noticed that on quite a few of those accounts.
 
what's an msft
 
Some of them have thousands of answers...
 
@KevinB I envy you for not knowing this.
 
6:18 PM
i mean, at a certain point, is an account ever so far off the deep end that from a moderator perspective... it'd be more efficien to just nuke the account
 
@KevinB MSFT and MT are both titles given to Microsoft employees they tell to answer everything at all cost, and greenlight mass-plagiarism for
if you want a job as a professional plagiarist, Microsoft is who you wanna work for
 
i assumed msft, but the s on the end didn't seem right
 
No idea what the titles stand for (and I don't really care), but MTs are MSFTs but for Azure
Basically
 
MSFT is the NASDAQ stock code for Microsoft
 
genuinely surprised I haven't run into that many MVPs
This particular user had over 400 answers, and I'm about a quarter through
 
6:22 PM
yikes
 
Slightly move actually, I deleted a whole bunch the last time I ran into this user
Which is funny on its own
 
I picked a random user out of 1.1k MTs and MSFTs, and it happened to be a recurring plagiarist
 
picked that one at random
 
@KevinB Yes, after enough plagiarism we just delete anything that's not obviously not plagiarism, and tell them they are welcome to tell us what they didn't plagiarize.
 
6:24 PM
just ban MSFT questions
 
Oh I see you were serious about just copying flag text Ryan XD
 
Answers*, and trust me, we've wanted to once or twice
 
Well, they've plagiarized questions, too.
 
I'm sorry.
 
they have? ugh!
 
6:25 PM
They used another account to repost a plagiarised answer??
 
How else would they write a good question to do voting fraud with?
 
@HenryEcker Why?!
 
@HenryEcker I seem to have tripped over the flag dialog.
 
Also appears to be a sock
Are you taking care of that account, Ryan?
 
no, I have a meeting imminently
 
6:34 PM
oki
I'll fix
 
0
Q: Re-open closed question with incorrect answer

julesinspaaaceBackground I recently had a problem where I needed to add a user label to optimized code and I found this post: Volatile labels? The accepted answer states that it is not possible. After a couple hours trying different ways to debug my problem I searched again (with different search terms) where ...

 
6:58 PM
@RyanM Was that a R/A flag or a spam flag? Because that might end up being a confusing audit if that was nuked as spam.
 
R/A
 
Okay good. Just checking :)
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Going to delete everything they posted as well
huh, apparently the bulk-delete tool doesn't count toward mod stats. iiiinteresting.
 
scam
 
there's a bulk delete tool for answers?!
 
7:03 PM
Yes, for deleted accounts only though.
 
Would be nice to have for non-deleted accounts.
or at least for it to be 100% consistent about what, exactly, gets deleted when you open a page to an answer and hit m, d, enter.
I accidentally deleted a couple that were next to the plagiarists' answers.
(and then promptly undeleted them, of course)
 
I've had one misfire so far
146 deletions in though, so that's not too bad
 
So if you're ever looking through the revision history on your answer and you see a mod delete it, then immediately undelete it, check if it was next to one of those answers :-p
 
🔥
 
7:14 PM
Assuming you have 10k rep, of course (to be able to see another deleted post near yours)
 
and if you don't have 10k rep, I hear plagiarism is in this season.
 
A <10k rep user who hasn't visited chat: "Why did the mods turn the answer off and back on again?"
 
> this service is unavailable
wat
 
Ahem, THE SERVICE IS UNAVAILABLE
 
when
 
7:20 PM
whenever you need it most
 
At pie o'clock
 
in a little less than an hour
 
Dunno about you, but I can always have some pie. As long as it's available.
 
8:02 PM
Final count: around 300 deleted answers
And that was one MT
only 1174 to go
 
Just one MegaTurtle?
 
MicrosofT (I assume that's what -MT is supposed to be)
Unless it's some vendor, but I dunno what it'd be
 
'twas a joke. And I think it's "Microsoft Technician".
 
Microsoft Technician? More like Microsoft plagiarisT
 
Or "Microsoft Techguy" Or something along those lines.
@ZoestandswithUkraine You might be disappointed to find out what it takes to get the title.
 
8:10 PM
Nothing, you mean?
 
As in, how little it takes.
@ZoestandswithUkraine Bingo!
Well, OK, there is some requirements, I guess. Near as I can tell, they are: 1. Do you know how to turn on a computer? 2. Do you know how to use Google? 3. Do you have a pulse?
 
Number 2 isn't actually a requirement
 
I'm sure if animated corpses were a thing, MS wouldn't even have the third requirement.
 
@HenryEcker yeah, they obviously use Bing.
 
Meh, before Bing was around, the MS employees would still do the same thing. I guess, Google isn't even right. They probably have some internal knowledge base they search. So it's more like: 2. Do you know how to copy and paste? (from a post to a search box and from result to an answer)
 
8:15 PM
yeah, number two is obviously not a requirement
Let me correct it for you: "2. Do you know how to use Google to plagiarize answers?"
 
Really I was actually saying I don't think some of them even search for anything before dumping random junk into the answer field...
 
The MS tech forums are exactly the kind of crap SO replaced. I still land on questions there after searching and a lot of times it's the same pattern:
Q: I have <problem same as mine>
A: Did you try <something completely and obviously unrelated>
<marked resolved with the answer>
 
can't be microsoft's plagiarist if you don't search tho
In conclusion, use Linux. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
 
MSFT is effectively LMGTFY except they post the result in the answer field
 
Some times there is a bit more back and forth of people pointing out the obviously wrong copy/pasted advice isn't applicable. But it just repeats. A new copy/pasted obviously wrong advice is posted.
I'm pretty sure the asker just quits engaging out of frustration. I know I would. And the Microsoft employees apparently have some sort of rule that if there is no objection to their "advice" in X amount of time, it is deemed helpful and they close the question.
 
8:21 PM
@KevinB and they deny doing so if confronted
 
have you tried turning it off and on again
 
it's kind of fascinating
sometimes they'll actually figure something out
other times they'll just paste some random tangentially related thing
 
@KevinB That's actually a better advice than the MS employees give you. Because they'd probably tell you to turn off and on something completely unrelated. "My keyboard doesn't work some times" -> "Try going to the control panel and turning off and then back on your wireless connection".
@RyanM I guess occasionally they get lucky. And if I have to be honest, not all of them are incompetent. But it's enough of them to make the entire group seem bad.
 
"My keyboard doesn't work sometimes" ->
"While most keys produce characters (letters, numbers or symbols), other keys (such as the escape key) can prompt the computer to execute system commands. In a modern computer, the interpretation of key presses is generally left to the software: the information sent to the computer, the scan code, tells it only which physical key (or keys) was pressed or released. Whenever you add a language, a keyboard layout or input method is added so you can enter text in the language. If you want to use a different keyboard layout or input method, you can add a
 
I'm genuinely not sure if you just made that up or searched for my made up problem and pasted the result you found.
 
8:27 PM
@RyanM all of this is copied from those links ^
That's basically the sort of answers some of them produce.
Tangentially related, could fix a problem but not the one the person is having.
 
@RyanM That's actually what I meant by "made up". Did you copy it from multiple places or was it already one thing posted by a Microsoft employee.
 
Oh, I copied it from multiple places myself.
I was just imitating the form.
 
Missing a couple copyrighted images in there
 
@RyanM Tangentially related, but it did actually help me. I was wondering what I press some times to switch my input. I've set the language switch to Alt+Shift but sometimes I know I've not pressed it and it's switched. Well, it's the Win+Space, apparently.
 
:D
 
8:31 PM
Next to figure out - how to turn it off.
 
But yeah, actual example: "how are Updates and Deletes handled in both Data Warehouses and Data Lakes?" -> first line of answer: "Data lakes and data warehouses are both widely used for storing and accessing big data. "
like...yes, that's true, but not helpful or related in any way.
 
Disable Win+Space keyboard-layout switch in Windows 10 - this is horrible. Apparently to disable it you...use AutoHotkey to intercept the shortcut.
 
lmao
 
@VLAZ second answer suggests an MS solution
 
You mean, third, right?
Nope, it was already disabled.
 
8:37 PM
No, I mean the second: superuser.com/a/1556350/52745
 
Also, the the end, it says Win+Space still works...
@RyanM Oh, right - the "install this extra thing from the OS makers that will allow you to change how the OS works"
 
at least it's first-party
 
How much extra stuff do I need to install to disable functionality I don't want?
 
If you install a sufficiently barebones Linux distro, that ought to do it.
...you didn't want to keep the functionality you do want, right?
 
With Linux, I've never had to download and install extra stuff in order to be able to disable or change some of the core functionality. At best, you can install a different GUI to make the configurations but it's optional.
> Microsoft PowerToys is a set of utilities for power users to tune and streamline their Windows experience for greater productivity.
 
8:42 PM
I've had to install tools to change the system volume
 
Oh, so Windows is by default supposed to make me less productive? That tracks.
@RyanM I know. And it's not the only thing, either. Throughout the years I've had to install various MS tools for various things that MS didn't allow you to touch in Windows in the first place.
 
Oh I meant on Linux...although I have a random batch script to fix the volume mixer on Windows.
 
Never had that problem.
At work I had an arms race against IT because they have some stupid group policy which disables the window animations at each startup. And I want them enabled. So I wrote a script that enabled them. Yet IT keep changing things around. And it affects the script. I had to delay it with a minute because the policy took some variable amount of time to be enabled, and had ensure the script ran after. Then had to change it again. Then had to run it with admin privileges.
And now it still works because something monumentally stupid they did with the user accounts. I've yet to fix the script.
Or maybe I just change it. Instead of PowerShell, I just do a macro that goes and clicks on the appropriate places. A bit more annoying when it runs but it defeats the weird wrenches that IT keep throwing at the PS script that just enables a boolean, at the end of the day.
 
9:04 PM
0
Q: The [amazon] cutdown went to far?

A.J.The iam should not remain a synonym of amazon-iam when IAM is an industry abbreviation.

 
Boo. 1. Pun does not even make sense. 2. It's not about the [amazon] tag but about [iam]. 3. Much wasted pun potential for a pun with [iam]. 4. Bonus points for potential "I have no mouth and I must scream" puns. Niche but I'd have appreciated it.
 
will[iam]
 
9:48 PM
[iam] trapped in the Amazon and I can't get out.
 
🚽
 
not sure if that's a positive reaction or not TBH
 
s/Amazon/🚽
 
10:10 PM
0
Q: Should tag creators be able to suggest synonyms even if they lack 5 tag-answer score?

Justin GrantBased on the advice of experts here on Meta, I created the ecmascript-temporal tag for the upcoming ECMAScript Temporal API, which is a new date/time API that will soon be available in Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Node.js, etc. Now that the tag is created, I'd like to create synonyms for this tag: js...

 
10:43 PM
1
Q: Reputation discrepancy in achievements dialogue after user removal

bad_coderSo today the "User was removed" happened but there's a difference between the reputation loss shown in the achievements dialogue (shows -70) and the reputation history in the user profile (shows -80). I found a previous bug report that seems similar. rev 2022.6.8.42312

^ am I the only one who got a feeling rep summaries have gone berserk lately?
 
but... but... redesign good!
 
People look at that?
 
Perfect with no exploits or bugs
 
Oh, it's the same bug. The reputation counter can't math.
@ZoestandswithUkraine Da true MVPs know to stay out of your way :-)
 
apparently, it can't. bad_coder's public profile shows -70 to me without the second "user removed". When so many users start to report issues with the summary, it can't just be a coincidence
@CodyGray normally, I do not, but it seems like there was an active user removed today, and it looks like they created a new account and tried to reupvote everything they voted on before, so I got curious, and look, another bug report (I think it's a 7th or 8th in a row?)
 
10:50 PM
@VLAZ You're kidding. I can't even use Ubuntu without installing a zillion tweak tools. Granted, that's because the Ubuntu window manager is crap, but still. Same as Windows, except worse.
 
See, that's where you've gone wrong in life
> Ubuntu
gnome is arguably the single worst desktop environment
modern* gnome
It's going further downhill with every update
 
Oh, agreed
But I am forced to use Ubuntu because it's the only distro with guaranteed compatibility with other stuff
 
Use Mint :p
or at least a spin of ubuntu
 
That is my normal/preferred choice, but it is actually not supported. Not officially. I suspect it'll work fine, but don't have the bandwidth to hassle with it.
 
11:12 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine wait, how do you know that?
 
@Dharman so, my hunch was correct? :)
 
I don't know... I can't find any hint at that
I can see the account deleted, but I don't know if they recreated it or if they are voting for the same posts.
I am surprised you were able to collect such information.
 
too odd of a coincidence, I got -20 on MSE on user removal and slightly after that - 2 upvotes in short succession (in 20s). Plus then there's a report on MSE by bad_coder about today's removal, so I basically connected the dots. Sometimes I just have a hunch about something
 
"How do you manage this divination of things which you cannot possibly know or confirm?"

"Oh, I hang out around people who can know, make a variety of outlandish claims, and then wait for them to pick up on one of them."
 
proved to be pretty successful tactic so far :)
 
11:22 PM
I have no mod access on MSE so I can't check what happened there.
 
Well, not that it is of particular interest, just an out of the ordinary sequence of things that led to a gut feeling
 
It kind of is, because we had a user known for creating drama self-delete their account. So if they've recreated it and are re-voting on things, that's an issue. We just don't know how to find it or confirm it.
 
I literally see no sign that they recreated their account
 
I can flag the post where it happened for investigation, if you'd like
 
On MSE is no good
Unless they have an account on SO too
 
11:26 PM
I still wish SO mods had mod privileges on MSE.
I proposed that a long long time ago, but never got any takers
 
want to have to deal with all the MSE drama too? :)
 
Meh
Sometimes it spills over. Besides, I'd be happy to be able to shut it down if I wanted to.
 
makes sense
on an unrelated note, heh, what a punny title can do shoot a burn request to the stars :)
 
I am solely upvoting this question BECAUSE of the title! — mickmackusa yesterday
This makes me frustrated.
Because it means you cannot tell that people actually support removing the tag
 
well, I hardly doubt anyone is against burning
 
11:41 PM
Eh, dangerous assumption
 
aren't all assumptions dangerous?
 
No
The assumption that all assumptions is dangerous is not dangerous
 
that is dangerous too since it cannot be proved apriori
 

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