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6:00 PM
@ndugger This will effectively only cause more chaos
 
0
Q: Why was question 58112290 removed?

Andrew TobilkoI tried hard to understand the reasoning behind closing this question. I couldn't get it, so I am asking for help here. I'll post it here because some users might not see it. Java Thread - Thread waiting on a object comes out of wait without the concerned object notifies I have tried a ...

0
Q: Rename [numpy-broadcasting] to [array-broadcasting]?

Matt B.Given that multiple languages support broadcasting with very similar meaning to how Numpy uses the word, it'd perhaps be nice to rename[numpy-broadcasting] to a more general [array-broadcasting]. This seems like a much better situation than adding, e.g., [julia-broadcasting] and [matlab-broadcas...

 
@NickA hah
 
There's a lot of people paying attention to this. It's bad enough we don't have a canonical official reply, but there's a lot of concerns and a lot of anger and frustration. If this room is frozen, people will take those concerns elsewhere, and I've seen multiple comment sections spiral out of control. If that's going to happen, it might as well be in a place where we don't need to rely on mods to calm down situations
 
Anything I say is canonical.
Hear me, good people!
(that typo was also canonical)
 
@canon You're fired! grabs matches
 
6:04 PM
:/
 
I gotta get all the chaos emeralds
 
I wonder if the answer will ever be unlocked. It was so close to overtaking the OP in votes (but negative).
 
it was already locked and unlocked before
 
I know.
 
@Script47 Probably. Once it's been a while George may unlock it or you may flag it for unlock as well
 
6:17 PM
I did, it got declined.
'declined - What value is there in allowing voting to continue?'
 
Lol, well I would reply "it's the entire point of the site" but you can't reply to flag-handle responses
probably for the best
 
I suggest they lock every post on the network with a score of >500 or <-500, what value is there in allowing voting to continue?
 
Yep, normally I reflag and make my case but I dunno, I just thought what's the point. Maybe I'll do so later.
 
@Script47 Sending an abundantly clear message for one
 
gyazo.com/7ec7ce582b01b0463e36b3d4e96a688f - I've flagged it thrice already.
 
6:24 PM
 
I've been really tempted to flag it as NAA
 
I was reading the comments in that answer and keto watching it....and really, there wasn't nasty comments
 
I've seen some pretty nasty comments get posted over this, some are still up. I'm sure it got some.
 
@AlexanderO'Mara out of curiosity, which comments do you class as nasty?
 
One of the other posts in the network had some comments that went a bit too far
 
6:33 PM
one thing's for sure: the more you badger with flags and in chat the more George will be inclined to keep it locked
 
@Script47 ...the nasty ones?
 
The ones that are swiftly deleted and quite possibly gone without a trace
 
No, I meant quotes of "nasty" comments that are still up.
 
... as they should be
 
Watching a single post because it’s a lightning rod for discussion on an action by a member of SO Inc is “aintnobodygottimeforthat.gif” territory
 
6:35 PM
There's still one that calls all of SE evil.
 
@AlexanderO'Mara link me?
 
I'm happy to see it stayed locked. Everything that can be said has been said at this point, and it's acting as a bright light for all the troll moths who can't resist the urge to be rude and snarky even though there's an explicit "don't do it" on the post itself.
2
 
@AlexanderO'Mara that's one of the ones I referred to
 
@DanNeely and two subsequent bolded messages from moderators
 
@GeorgeStocker One sec, I closed the tabs, because I've mostly lost interest.
 
6:37 PM
I'd rather have it not locked with no trolls, though, guess that isn't an option here :(
 
Trolls are anyone who disagrees, right?
 
I know everyone's angry and you should be but let's be human and flag all the toxic comments, chats and any other rant or offensive comments regarding the recent tragedy.
 
👍
i think blanketly calling people who are bad at responding constructively trolls is... nonconstructive. neither is assuming that their intent was incite problems. Better to just flag and move on
 
6
Q: Why I Resigned as a Moderator

Ed CottrellPrologue Earlier today, I resigned as a moderator on both Stack Overflow and Ebooks. I feel I owe this community some attempt at an explanation. Please understand that I cannot offer a full explanation of everything that led me to this decision. This is likely going to strike many people as vagu...

 
6:52 PM
@Magisch where are those rules? (genuinely asking)
 
@Lamak it's the rules all moderators must agree to abide by, kind of like a NDA. Here: stackoverflow.com/legal/moderator-agreement
 
Nothing to see here.
Hah, that works.
 
one way to solve the problem
 
Fight club!
 
Let's not discuss that here. It'll only make people dig it up.
 
6:55 PM
@Magisch ah, I see...and how are those "house rules" for the rest?
 
Wow, looks like I missed something :]
 
Problem is that it's the internet, once something has been posted it's just a matter of time before people find it.
 
On topic again, another moderator lost... Hopefully this is the last one
 
People can find it on their own but we don’t need to help
 
hopefully not, as that'd mean the end of the network
 
6:57 PM
probably too much to hope, but with any luck it'll stay buried
 
We can't stop anyone from finding it, but we don't need to aid in the process
 
K, next subject.
 
Corporate needs to make a response about what's going on.
 
they will in due time
 
would you rather they rush it
we've seen what happens when that happens
 
7:00 PM
@Magisch Like the existing answer?
 
we've been giving them a hard time all weekend for rushing out a response over the weekend. It's only fair we're able to take a day or two delay in exchange for a proper one (here's hoping)
 
I'd rather they acknowledge that there is a situation and they are preparing a response. The canned response to some of the moderator resignations rubbed people the wrong way. Given that the community momentum is for people resigning or striking then it at least make sense to say "We are aware, give us X amount of time"
3
 
^^^^^
 
They have
 
Link?
 
7:02 PM
just not in the form of an answer to a question
 
It was conveyed in interpretative dance
 
A lot of changes are happening right now, as you noted, and it's still a very fluid dynamic. We'll respond to this in the coming days once we're certain of what's needed. — Tim Post ♦ yesterday
 
Was that in the chat room?
 
their's a link they're to the source
 
Alright that's something, but buried in a comment where people have to look for it seems kind of, "not using the full scope of technology they have at their disposal."
 
7:06 PM
that's fine
user image
5
 
That has been starred two times.
 
7:21 PM
I'm sure glad we all blogged that lesson about confusing disagreement with personal attacks.
3
 
intent is everything
 
if the tent is large enough
 
hah
Intent is the difference between manslaughter and murder... but someone's still dead. ;)
 
Yes, and in terms of the current hot topics, it should be the difference between a slap on the wrist and suspension. we're not dealing with murder here
 
7:36 PM
Let's not go there
 
Please don't read it. The messages were posted under the assumption that it was in a private room. They were not intended for public consumption.
 
i'm not referring to mods
sorry if it was insinuated that way
 
Whoops, too late.
 
1 message moved to Trash can
 
(i also haven't read it)
 
7:38 PM
don't forget this is the internet. Nothing is truly private. All it takes is a data breach or a whistle blower, and all the skeletons in the closets pour out all over the floor.
 
It doesn't matter. You can be responsible, even if someone else violated trust. You don't have to be complicit in it.
 
The entire thing is a Kobayashi Maru.
 
nice reference!
 
Maybe, but I got lots of details SE wouldn't release at gunpoint. I have no intention of spreading it, entirely because it would likely lead to my suspension, and I'm not done here yet.
 
I have come to the conclusion that the details no longer matter. What matters now is that Stack Overflow Inc. owns the decisions they've made and that they stand prepared to own the consequences of them.
I don't have the patience anymore for this needless hand wringing over details since, at the end of the day, nukes went off.
 
7:42 PM
I agree
and I don't even know what people is talking about reading what private messages...doesn't matter now
 
it got nuked pretty fast
 
@Zoethetransgirl This is what intrigues me the most. How much we (the normal users) will actually know of what actually went on.
 
That's also a Kobayashi Maru for management since someone on SO meta kind of pointed out the key problem: they co-mingled technical sites (ex., How do I get X code to work) with cultural sites.
 
If this is the nuclear winter we might as well start Winter Bash early this year ...
 
Pretty sure it was edited into Monica's answer on judaism.SE
 
7:44 PM
Hats?!
 
@rene Irradiated hats.
Kinda meh.
 
@Script47 Extremely little, because that's how SE rolls
 
But if I wear it long enough surely my opinion will change
 
The Q&A structure works really well for technical questions, but for cultural things it get's really complicated, really fast.
 
@rjzii Easily explains the extreme "WTF" moments from the technical side of the house as opposed to the non-technical side of the house.
 
7:45 PM
@Makoto just before hell freezes over ..
 
so... there's a new newsletter now, and you're all opted in to it!
 
What now?
 
@rene wouldn't that be the ideal time to wear a hat tho
 
How often are data dumps made for SO?
 
Every Sunday @Script47
 
7:45 PM
@Makoto yes
 
Oh, wait, dumps. I think that's quarterly.
 
@KevinB That's illegal
 
@KevinB which newsletter? Can you link the subscription?
 
@Makoto Are they available immediately or where could I find the latest one?
 
IIRC both GDPR and CAN SPAM block that
 
7:46 PM
@Makoto Indeed! Honestly it might be a bit easier on the network if they split things a bit.
 
@Script47 Taking a backup before it's too late?
 
@Mgetz Now we can throw a GDPR complaint on top of the license lawsuit
 
its in the mail preferences of your SO account. I don't know if you're all auto-opted in, but i was
 
@Zoethetransgirl I'd file CAN SPAM first
 
Never heard of it :]
 
7:47 PM
I haven't seen an email.
GDPR?
 
@NickA something like that...
 
You can get them here
 
y u no 1box
 
@NickA in all seriousness, I've been meaning to check them out for a while now. This seems like the perfect moment.
 
7:48 PM
They're big, they take a while to DL
 
Cheers.
 
@Script47 I've updated the FAQ: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2677/…
 
@KevinB well, look at that….I was opted-in
 
Thanks @rene.
 
in total its 60+GB i think, so not enormous
 
7:49 PM
I assume they auto-opted in anyone who was opted in to new features, or some other criteria
 
@NickA I may need to remove some clutter on my laptop then...
 
SO is 40 of that :P
 
@KevinB Maybe soon I'll be happy enough to read that announcement. It seems positive but I've got other stuff on my mind right now. :|
 
@KevinB now really…and in all seriousness...and good intentions…the timing for that announcement is quite tone deaf
 
@Lamak extremely tone deaf. Normally when situations arise in an organisation that cause public outrage the next public post/press release is related that item.
 
7:54 PM
Apparently we can send in ideas for articles :thinking:
 
Alrighty, 111GB free. Let's do this.
 
GL!
 
@Script47 well, just goes to show the new priorities,but damn...SE wasn't like this before
 
@NickA ETA 1d 10h and increasing...
 
ROFL
 
7:58 PM
@Lamak unfortunately, yes.
 
@Script47 I imagine it's been in an auto release queue for two weeks and they forgot about it in the chaos
 
ngn
@Script47 torrent or http?
 
torrent. I have spotty internet in one part of my house. After moving it is fluctuating between 9+ hours.
 
If they mention the current debacle in the next news letter they're going to be exposing it to a lot of people who ignore meta and have no idea about what's going on. Even if they go full spin a decent chunk of them will be WTH is this about, go searching and find the mess.
 
@Lamak going to disagree, the whole thing is just the latest episode in a drama going back years
 
8:04 PM
And since they apparently used "opted into other emails means default yes for this one" they're going to be spreading it widely from the get go
 
This is just the first time it managed to effect a larger portion of the network rather than just SO itself
 
Sometimes I wonder if SE forgets that they don't pay moderators.
 
No. Every conversation we have it comes up in some form
With the CM team
They’re well aware of the contributions of moderators, and grateful from everything I’ve encouhtered
 
@GeorgeStocker 🥃🥃
 
@GeorgeStocker I'm not exactly privy to those conversations. ;) So this is purely from the outsider perspective.
 
8:06 PM
it's a little early in the week, but seems appropriate
 
However, seeing 13 people quit and 10 more on strike implies that the moderators don't feel that everything is going well.
 
@GeorgeStocker Kind of a funny way to show graciousness tbh
Reminds me of a tsundere
In anime that's a wonderful trope. IRL it's just annoying.
 
@rjzii I'd avoided saying it before, but I'm expecting the moderator program to end soon. For the same reasons as all the rest of this, which I don't feel safe to discuss.
 
I doubt it'll end, but I do expect it to drastically change.
 
8:09 PM
@GeorgeStocker They have a funny way of showing that.
 
@Mgetz That's actually news to me, but what would they replace it with?
 
@rjzii Nothing, just an auto-flag system and CMs for appeal.
 
@Script47 Hope you planned on leaving your laptop on all night
 
Meanwhile farmers went on strike in the Netherlands today... It was glorious
 
There's no way that can end well. Computerized moderation is a garbage fire even with Google/etc levels of talent applied. If they're going for profitability hiring mods is going to be a big hit. And going unmoderated will just hasten the networks collapse into the swamp and the point when a new rival is able to disrupt it
 
8:11 PM
My expectation is that any privileges currently available beyond about 5k will be pared back significantly.
 
@Mgetz I seem to recall that being used before on other sites (facebook?) and not working very well.
 
@DanNeely let me be blatant, entrenched users are getting in their way and preventing the goal of increasing users. They are trying to fix that 'problem'
 
My bet would be on them splitting the SE network into technical Q&A and culturally Q&A.
 
nah
 
Doubtful since the site that gets the worst press is SO
 
8:12 PM
You can come down with a hard ban hammer on SO pretty easily but a question over on one of the religion sites requires a really light touch.
 
They are trying to fix the press
 
I'm not saying they won't decide to do it. I'm saying the only option that won't be a disaster of an implementation isn't viable from a business standpoint
 
0
Q: Any technology Tutorials problem in providing sufficient info

PraveenKumar LalasangiMy question is whether tutorials found now a days not providing sufficient information and working code example for their blog. As i am not clear whether to mention those here, i am not mentioning but putting a clear cut argument that most of people believes stack overflow solutions and after go...

 
To me the best solution is not to be a business, but that requires a lot of funding to make that happen
 
Except the site really isn't viable from a business standpoint.
 
8:14 PM
if I thought it'd do any good, I'd send a copy of this to everyone at SE Inc... amazon.com/Goose-that-Laid-Golden-Read/dp/1404802193
 
@NickA I sleep late (plus it says 2h 47m).
 
@rjzii the site, like all internet things is predicated on constant and unmitigated growth. Obstacles to that growth will be removed.
 
I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the founders were trying to run it more as a passion project ("Make the Internet a better place") than as a profit center. I swear Joel said in one of the podcasts during the private beta days that breaking even was cause for celebration.
 
@rjzii passion projects don't pay for hosting, and investors want their money
 
@rjzii The tech to run this place and the staff that do so are not cheap.
 
8:16 PM
I know, but that's part of the reason why they allowed people to work remote and all that.
Kind of like the Wikipedia model.
 
To quote the song "Ain't no rest for the wicked, money don't grow on trees"
@rjzii That's changed largely IIRC
 
Are any of the founders still involved? I know at least some moved on
 
Nope. They both moved on years ago.
 
@Script47 Ah that's not so bad
 
I'm remembering stuff from back when Stack Overflow was still being written by Fog Creek Software.
 
8:17 PM
@rjzii not true. Joel is one of the cofounder and is current chairman of the board of directors
and until very recently was also CEO
 
Until tomorrow.
 
@Mithrandir how do you know im not from the future?
 
@Dragonrage Right, I need to get some more caffeine in my system. Jeff moved on though.
 
@Mithrandir ? Until today? I thought it was October 1st the new guy stepped in
 
regardless nothing happening is new
 
8:20 PM
@rjzii that is correct. also. caffeine always sounds good to me, though it does affect me much
 
Oh, maybe. I thought it was until the second.
 
Nah, today: "His first day will be October 1st."
 
Same here, but it's late in the day.
 
I drink coffee right up until i go to sleep
 
^ Then the caffeine knocks you out, you don't need to try to sleep
you just sleep
 
8:22 PM
Still, wonder if I'm remembering something with Joel taking a step back from day-to-day operations?
 
it may have started as a labor of love; but once they let vulture capital in; sooner or later either turning into a cash printing press or at least being profitable enough to sell was inevitable.
 
i wonder if drinking coffee has anything to do with me not dreaming/remembering that i dreamed
 
Heck of a first day for him.
3
 
though i havent had a dream that i know of since i was like 13 or so, and i wasnt drinking coffee then
 
First official day, but I'd be shocked if they weren't already on-site getting spun up on things.
 
8:24 PM
@Mithrandir my thoughts exactly. I wonder if just went in and sat quietly in his office contemplating what the hell is going on.
 
With... ~50 mod slots either down or on strike, I'd be kinda surprised if it hadn't made its way to CEO level.
 
How many mods are there across the network as a whole?
 
~550.
 
elsewhere I speculated that he's been all "ARGH!!! Why right before I started!!!!" for the last few days
 
I read ~200 approx.
 
8:25 PM
Or at least, there were.
 
@Script47 Nah. While he was sitting there he found Stack Overflow Jobs and applied to the the CEO of Reddit
 
the Register article said ~600, but I'm not sure if that's people or slots
 
23 on Stack Overflow according to the site.
 
~550 individuals, a lot more slots.
~700-750 slots, at a rough estimate.
 
Still ~550 means that roughly 10% of them are impacted and some of them were big names saying they were leaving.
 
8:27 PM
@Machavity Reddit released a change in their policies too (either today or tomorrow).
 
Next week: Moderator Nominations Open!
 
@Script47 Reddit, now with 50% less jerks!
 
@KevinB is that speculation or is there an announcement? IMO they'd be insane to start elections now even with some sites being gutted.
 
I enjoy Reddit for the quips and witty remarks.
 
just a prediction
 
8:31 PM
I'm assuming they would want to roll out a new CoC before holding elections as well.
 
that too
Right now if they tried to run an election I'd expect the nomination pages to be flooded with protest statements and the voting APIs to be flooded with garbage as angry devs try to spoil their ballots by submitting Robert'); DROP TABLE Employees;-- and other such abuse
 
meh, i think this outrage is rather limited to the meta crowd in general. There would certainly be some pushback, but it'd move forward
the site will move on
 
If the page isn't exploitable, i'd expect the hopelessly unqualified to get large numbers of protest votes.
The people who don't care at all are least likely to vote
 
my time to win
 
@KevinB I suspect it will be mixed. There's been stuff out there about people moving on from contributing to SO for awhile now.
 
8:35 PM
:p
 
it'll blow over eventually, but until they give a few weeks for tempers to cool they'd be insane to try new elections. OTOH...
 
all i'd need to do is flip my avatar upside down
 
... they still need to make a statement as well. :D
My prediction is that Meta Stack Exchange get's closed for general use. Maybe a User Voice site for feature requests and only moderators / staff are allowed to create new threads. Site specific meta site stay around to deal with site specific issues.
 
@rjzii I'm surprised they didn't freeze meta a few months back
305
Q: The world is big and I am SO small. What are the implications for our meta community with the changes in Stack Overflow?

Yvette ColombTL DR: The input from meta carries far less sway than it used to. The Stack Overflow Company (I'll refer to as the network) is making the decisions on site changes. We need to adapt to our new limited influence. OR should I stay or should I go? So this is less of a discussion, more of a head...

 
They can't without a replacement place for teams/jobs support
 
8:43 PM
@rjzii Yea, that's not gonna happen
 
Flipping avatars, eh? Nice idea
 
Didn't one of the staff members say they don't like going there any more due to the toxicity? Might have been easier at the time to ignore it than shut it down.
 
@Cerbrus people said the same about ignoring meta too
@rjzii literally just linked that above
 
I believe one of the staff members relayed that many staff members felt stress even contemplating interacting with meta @rjzii
 
Hmm, It's time to go on strike was deleted. Wonder why.
 
8:46 PM
@Mgetz Reading the post down, must have seen it somewhere else per @ConspicuousCompiler.
 
@canon because that's not the place for it.
 
They're not going to disable/freeze/remove meta because they see the value it has in helping users
 
@canon It was deleted after about 30s
 
I was upset that I never got an official reply to:
239
Q: What's up with the breakdown in communication between Stack Overflow and the community?

Script47For a while now, we've seen a breakdown in communication between Stack Overflow and the community, however, more recently, we've seen this relationship deteriorate rapidly. It has become a trend that changes ("features") are pushed out without any prior consultation. Then, in the introductory me...

 
> Meta is not the place to discuss/coordinate participation on the network.
gotcha
 
8:47 PM
@Script47 I think they have bigger issues they need to respond to first...
 
2 months ago though @Cerbrus.
 
Not a whole lot has changed since then
 
Oh geez
 
other than time
 
8:48 PM
I didn't notice
 
that register article's title cracks me up
> The mod firing squad: Stack Exchange embroiled in 'he said, she said, they said' row
 
@Script47 I believe George provided a response. It was just, to summarize it extremely briefly, SO needs to move quickly to bring in revenue, and so they don't consider it worthwhile to consult the community before making changes to the nature of the site.
 
@ConspicuousCompiler it was not official. I was hoping for an official response so as to open sincere dialogue that could be used to improve the communication.
Forget an answer, I don't think I got a comment of acknowledgement on that post either.
 
@Script47 Keep dreaming. They don't want your input and they don't think you're entitled to an explanation.
 
@Script47 I did get a response at meta.stackexchange.com/questions/331513/…
 
user3956566
8:54 PM
@JL2210 why did you ask me if I'd showered?
 
user3956566
 
lmao!
I could not understand wtf was going on reading those comments
 
wow
 
cough
uh, you mentioned not showering in your video and I personally... thought that was kind of gross.
 
user3956566
8:59 PM
@JL2210 in what context? I shower every day - I don't always brush my hair - I've often not brushed my hair - it usually looks better when I don't brush it, as it's curly!
 

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