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21:00
My beliefs shouldn't constitute an imposition on them, just as theirs should not upon me. Right?
ketchup sandwich
KETCHUP SANDWICH
Well, he's so popular that him taking a bathroom break got 10, 11 stars. So.
@AndrasDeak I hoped for a one-line version, too much back-reading across the network :(
@jpmc26 I’d strongly advice to not discuss this again and not here
user3956566
:4744567 this topic isn't up for debate on this network. That's the thing. The site has drawn a line in the sand. It isn't the place to discuss it. We are all expected to abide by the CoC. that will be updated to be more explicit in covering this, as clearly people are having trouble intuiting this.
21:02
Yvette, I hope you didn’t woke up in the middle of the night
Seconding VG, maybe when things are a bit calmer
@weegee The borked reply formatting says otherwise
Ha
is ketchup sandwich to this chat what spiderman memes are to 4chan?
@YvetteColomb Then I am being excluded. Explicitly so.
@Dragonrage Nationals
DERAIL THIS THREAD AT ONCE ANONS
21:03
@jpmc26 I think from her response, she is fine with that
@FélixGagnon-Grenier If we get three months of simultaneous conversations and rapid chatting, then our memes would have lasting impact
When there is a policy to debate let’s do it. Before then we are drawing straw men and that’s not productive or conducive to useful discourse.
4
user3956566
@jpmc26 don't start that. I honestly do not have the energy for it. Really.
user3956566
21:04
@GeorgeStocker No, there's no debate, the network will be telling us what the bar is and expect us all to step up and I'm ok with that
how do I double star George's message
BTW, IIRC, chat audit messages used to allow for more meta hilarity, right?
@YvetteColomb You can always step out of it and get some sleep
@YvetteColomb god willing.
. . . I wanna draw strawmen :( They're so fun.
21:05
I mean, I get you, but "I don't have the energy" should not be an argument. "we decided to exclude that topic for the time being" somewhat is.
user3956566
@FélixGagnon-Grenier yeh someone tried to suggested edit me into that MSE post. So I wrote an answer. I'm also tired of all the bleeding heart stuff.
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker :)
Like, whole comics are dedicated to strawmen. Even an ex-NASA guy
@YvetteColomb But I have to have the energy to withstand being excluded?
user3956566
yek I'm goin to bed
21:06
Ahhhh good old alienating policy changes
@YvetteColomb I think the European way of putting it is "rest well!"
user3956566
@jpmc26 you're not being excluded. We just don't want to entertain the rights of trans gender people in a STack OVerflow Chat room
user3956566
@M.A.R. merci
Wait does Use–mention count or should I say it again
This is confusing
@YvetteColomb *entertain a discussion about?
21:06
@YvetteColomb Okay. That's fine. Can we have a conversation about my rights? That's what I was trying to do.
""rest well!" rest well!" rest well!
@GeorgeStocker if they win, do they go against the astros, or the dodgers?
@YvetteColomb Please rephrase that before it's taken out of context
Yeah the phrasing of that is very very bad Yvette, I would delete it
user3956566
@jpmc26 No. Your and my rights are fine. All we're doing is allowing other people to have the same right
21:07
I know you're tired so no blame, but it reads wrong
You're not resting well :/
user3956566
@ballBreaker sprry it wasn't meant as bad, I am tired. Let me go to bed \o
go play some minecraft
boy this is a warm welcome for SO's new CEO.
Good night!
21:08
@YvetteColomb I don't feel like my rights are fine. Caleb doesn't, either. And I suspect Monica does not either.
user3956566
morning!
@jpmc26 I believe she wants to go to bed.
@YvetteColomb Oh but of course
@YvetteColomb come on, get some rest please?
try RLCraft
21:08
@jpmc26 Is it a "right" to be a moderator? To be a SO member?
@Cerbrus No, but SO is hardly the only place this has become an issue.
Other places aren't really relevant here though
you can always find corners of the internet where you feel welcome even if you're intolerant
Yeah 4chan seems pretty welcoming
Not in this discussion, at least
21:10
You cannot sign up there. Weird
@AndrasDeak What makes you think I'm intolerant?
I think part of the schism stems from the idea that the way in which people's rights are respected, or not, in life outside internet should not chime in policies on internet, and should instead be based on what actually happens on these sites.
@jpmc26 FWIW, I think this is a very important and worthwhile discussion to be had, but I don't think this very day (or week) is the best time to discuss it. People should regain their calm if it's ever to be conclusive, for the better or worse. But ATM I think the discussion would derail into . . . well, nothingness.
If there's ever a chance for it to get somewhere, it's later.
@jpmc26 I merely made a conditional statement
21:11
gods
make that your profile pic
I dare you
I double dare you
@ballBreaker is that sriracha or catsup?
Or don't, because it's blocked here
oooo catsup just triggered me
@FélixGagnon-Grenier there’s no difference, people think like as same as they do in real life
@ballBreaker and that's a condiment statement
21:12
Or upload it to stack imgur
But yea it's ketchup/catsup
@Dragonrage * Ketchup
You heretic :P
Delete that picture please
@AndrasDeak ba dum tsss
...why
21:13
@weegee folks are not beaten with fists on websites.
@AndrasDeak hehehe amazing
@AndrasDeak Usually, the relevance of a conditional statement is based on the hypothesis being true (or the assertion/implication that it is). I can play word games, too. ;)
@weegee Indeed -- the internet is actually part of real life.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier yea but “thinking” is still the same, if I reveled my race and other things, there’s a chance, the person might treat me differently
I dare say it's not.
21:15
Its probably internet which is shaping our mind more than real life
@weegee I don't believe I understand what you mean, or the angle you are approaching from here :) You say that you see no difference between online and offline behaviour, to the point that everything online should be "policed" in the same way as offline?
@YvetteColomb Only because you happen to agree with the bar, this time.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I never said anything about “policing”
(Although, sometimes that is mitigated by putting an "even if" in front of the hypothesis, to indicate that the outcome is equivalent regardless of whether it's true or false.)
@weegee I know, I did, I think we're having a gigantic misunderstanding
like, can you tell me what it is you understand from what I'm saying?
21:17
I usually have this discussion in terms of technology and frameworks. A framework binds together things you agree with things you disagree, and you can't easily disengage with the things you disagree and stay with the things you do agree. This is why I prefer libraries :)
If it were so easy to make a statement on this, it wouldn't have been a shallowly understood active area of study.
I find myself underqualified to assert anything, merely some sort of gut feeling.
You said that if online and offline thinking is same of a person then we should police the both enviroments the same way
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yet.
Right?
21:18
. . . I also find myself really inconsistent about "if it was" and "if it were".
@M.A.R. out of not knowing which to use? Or just hard to remember that they are different
@weegee Our responses to people with whom we interact only through online mediums and people with whom we interact face-to-fact is demonstratively different, though.
@weegee I don't think that's what I was trying to say. I was trying to explain what I understand is a reason for the problems users of SO are having in coming to terms with the CoC
@Cerbrus After thinking about it a moment, the point is not that I have some kind of inherent right to be a member or moderator, but rather that the policy is facilitating of an attitude of silencing opposition. Such a belief system is harmful to our society's ability to maintain the rights of individuals, especially minorities.
@Dragonrage I don’t know, I thought those were AL teams? I would assume they would play the braves since the braves won the division they’re in
21:20
@M.A.R. if it were for hypothetical situations
if it was for real
@TylerH I use subjunctive when I wanna sound bossy and formal.
@jpmc26 Geez, now I need to look back and dig up what we were talking about
It's indicative everywhere else.
Meh
Nope
A sign of a successful chat.
21:20
@GeorgeStocker Go Braves
Don't read more than three lines above.
@Cerbrus There's a handy button on the message that will jump to message I replied to.
that reason being, that some people believe life outside of internet should shape how we interact on internet, whereas other people believe the interactions on that site should shape the policies
I'm not gonna bother
@MadaraUchiha Yes and I was not talking about that, do read up the chats above
21:21
Bah, chat messages are arriving late and in batches. Server must be under load...
@AndrasDeak Works fine on my machine
it's been doing this all day for me
@AndrasDeak Good to hit F5 every once in a while if you've been in the room a long time
Can anyone with 10k rep on MSE share a screen shot of the answer linked at the top here? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333965/… I don't remember which meme was that
Thanks
21:21
@KevinB Genau.
Speaking of fresh perspectives
-1
Q: Welcome to new members

JenserCubeWhen a "new contributor" makes their first post the first comment is often something along the line "Welcome to [subsite]. Please take the tour." Where "the tour" is a link. When I saw this at first I always wondered if the "new contributor" had done something wrong since a link to "the tour" was...

@TylerH it doesn't seem to happen in other rooms...guess it could depend on number of messages, thanks for the tip
@GeorgeStocker dodgers is a NL team., oh i found a bracket here
@BhargavRao It was an answer making a meme out of Sara Chipps' canned responses to each of the moderator retirements.
user3956566
@MadaraUchiha well that's insulting - I don't agree with a lot of stuff on this site. I accept I have no control over it.
21:23
I dont really follow baseball, but i do know that the dodgers set a franchise record for wins in a season, and the astros had like 2 more wins than them
Got red flag nuked
@TylerH are you a braves fan ?
@FélixGagnon-Grenier on internet, there’s a high possibilty you don’t the next person, you probably use names right?
@MadaraUchiha ah, thanks.
@YvetteColomb Fair enough.
21:23
That doesn't seem constructive, yeah.
@BhargavRao why can’t you see it? You are a mod
@GeorgeStocker for as much as I follow baseball, yes.
@weegee try again
Since I live in Georgia and they're the good guys
@weegee That is MSE
21:24
I hate the Nationals less than I hate the Phillies if it makes you feel better
@TylerH geography or circumstance?
oh Wait lol
@weegee as I said, I haven't expressed the beginning of an opinion either for or against anything here. Why do I feel like you're trying to convince me of something?
Such memes are fine if they're done on some other sites
@GeorgeStocker interest
21:25
There was that CMs explain the process or some meme on reddit
I grew up in NC and the braves were the “local” team
But if you post that on SO, then you're asking for it to be nuked.
@BhargavRao hehe, that was epic
@BhargavRao it was just not the right time. For the meme
It was never a right time for that meme
21:26
This is a bug lol I edited my text and a new chat posted
Uh, never was.
Jinx.
I owe me a soda.
@GeorgeStocker at least they weren't the local team in Milwaukee when you were growing up :-)
So I grew up liking the braves but when we moved to dc I adopted the Nats
yea
@weegee It happened to me a couple of years ago
21:26
@AndrasDeak I don't know if we're talking about the same thing ...
Or rather, used to happen
I don't want to call it as epic :\
@anonymous-star-voter I see you're trying to get my libs ftw message out of context. Congratulations, I would totally do the same.
Meh, epic has lost its meaning to me.
Let me search that thing
21:27
Now everything purple is called epic.
thanks, checking
3AM here .. don't want to watch it now
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I’m stating and trying to pass on that be it online or offline, both shapes the person’s mind and in the end be if offline or online, the person thinks the same way
@BhargavRao uuugh, that wasn't it. What is that :D
21:29
@weegee Well no, I can't agree with that.
@weegee I think I get that, but I am not saying that people's thoughts differ from online and offline.
Different circumstances breed different behavior.
good night in any case :)
even though, if I had to formulate an argument about it, I would say that the idea that you act the same as an anonymous person on the internet vs when being with someone face to face is provably false
Touche.
With an accent, even.
Which is just an e with a scar.
21:31
Maybe I deviated from the original argument, I’ll refer to the previous ones
maybe we don't see "thinking" as the same thing here.
Do the words "environment" mean nothing? "Zeitgeist"? Well uh I guess they don't mean much without context.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier replace it with behaviour
@weegee So I did understand right, and I disagree.
ok, then I do totally stand by my argument that online vs offline behaviour differ immensely.
21:32
Up high
I mean, not being held accountable / recognized is a gigantic reason why online trolling and/or harassment can exist
This is never about trolling or harrassment
it's about behaviour, online of offline
online behaviour includes those
g'night all, please don't burn the room down :-)
those online behaviour are greatly facilitated by being anonymous
@TylerH gnight!
21:34
A person acts different on both the mediums, as I said both mediums shape the mind
Well, taking it to real life, and an extreme. Is the child of a highly educated surgeon couple likely to be raised the same way as a child of a couple without any formal education?
@TylerH Don’t be in fear, weegee is here
I'm not implying either would certainly be raised better, BTW.
If you're exposed to a different environment, you would behave differently, and you'd still be more or less the same person, but with different thoughts.
@BhargavRao I have no idea what you guys were talking about, but that is hilarious
That meme always makes me laugh, no matter what the captions are :D
As both mediums shape the mind, they play their role, the person acts collectively in both the mediums. This is not about how a person “interprets” simple conversations and other common communication specifics, that may differ across mediums
21:37
4
Q: Please feature Robert Harvey's resignation notice

David GrinbergI want to officially request the current SO mods feature Rob's resignation notice. It is currently going through an edit war with the featured tag, where mod George Stocker has removed the edits of two separate other mods who have featured this post. His reasoning for removing the featured status...

@M.A.R. yes but thinking, you have notice while studying chem with your classmates that some students get some topics very clearly while others don’t and so on. It’s because it overlaps with their actual way of thinking. That is what, a function of mediums, remains constant throughout mediums
@weegee The more prevalent behavior in both mediums can be objectively and perceptively very different and yet to allow both behavior models to coexist
@weegee I think that's much more general and much vaguer than to dictate even the majority of the actions.
It sets the tone but specific actions can be much different.
You cannot generalize anything here
Like, why am I being such a sociologist about this. I see it happening everyday to me, my friends, and basically everyone I know to exist in multiple mediums.
I can't believe it used to be fun to hang out around Meta. It seems like such a depressed wasteland after the moderator crisis.
21:42
@M.A.R. Yes exactly but how their brain interprets things is same everywhere
of course not
humor is so hard to get right on a screen
The overall trait can be the same. Someone can be "talkative" or "easygoing" or whatever (and even that's up for debate) but still be perceived as a much different person
i suppose all of this means that there will be a longer delay before we get the results of the close vote test
intentions and emotions infamously are not interpreted the same way on internet vs in real life
It gets better than that too. My Persian self is more of an introvert. Not speaking unless spoken to, more cut-and-dried, less humor, more wannabe-philosophical, and more jaded.
21:44
@FélixGagnon-Grenier They do
Look it up, it's already a well-developed theory (probably a bit controversial at some places)
That are your qualities, not your way of thinking
The whole Sapir–Whorf thing
truth be told, I have considered stopping my participation out of spite to the SE community team. and I know that sounds like a terrible reason but it's out of utter frustration and the feeling that we've reached a dead-end with progress.
You can be talkative online and the opposite offline because you find stuff online worth speaking to or any other reason
That does not relate here at all
21:46
@weegee People don't look that deep unless they're really intimate. Persona mostly consists of the few memorable actions for everyone but the closest people in your life.
I start to think that mass participation stoppage from established users is what they're banking on, to make room for other users :p
It's not a deep analysis, it shapes your behavior towards me, but it doesn't feel conclusive often times.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Oh my God. Makes so much sense.
Bring me the hats
@TylerH thank you
@M.A.R. I’m afraid I don’t understand your comment, can you ellaborate?
21:51
For a later time, friend. I need some sleep
G'night all
0
Q: Editing questions without checking pending edits on the same question

TwentySo I am a bit confused by the system of editing questions. I understand that your edit will get instantly approved if you have more then 2k reputation, see the privileges. Well for my particular case I edited the following question see my suggested edit. I noticed that my suggested edit got reje...

22:05
OK, wow, I've been away for a while. So, what I've gathered is that Monica was removed from her role because she was using gender-specific pronouns to describe people and she was being trans-exclusive? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
we can't know, but you're wrong
It's very complicated, somewhat subtle, and all information we have is everything but suitable for gleaning subtlety. And going down this discussion based on speculation and half-truths will lead nowhere constructive. I suggest not even starting.
you can reread the transcript to see what was already said, up to and including the room getting frozen for a spin-off discussion getting out of hand
@JL2210 It's not public information, but as far as we know, she did nothing of the sort.
best discussed elsewhere
The fact that none of the moderators who resigned leaked a transcript of what happened tells me it probably isn't all the clear, and doesn't support everything claimed.
the fact that nobody leaked a transcript is the direct consequence of our moderators being suitable for being moderators
3
if they only went along with the rules as long as they deemed convenient they would be shitty mods
22:12
what pisses me off is that the community team doesn't understand the widespread effect this whole thing has. it doesn't just impact the victim and a few high-rep crabby users, it affects every single person on the site because posts can't be moderated as well. the decisions made by stack exchange, inc will send the quality of all sites down, whatever happens next.
it's not the "community team" that's at fault here, from most accounts
okay I guess the company as a whole
that's a better phrasing
more like, specifically some people high up there in the hierarchy
mhm
I strongly believe that whatever comes next, whatever response they have, what's happpened here in these past few days will never be forgotten and it will affect the sites going forward
negatively affect, that is
@connectyourcharger relevant
22:15
Sound like you've already written off their response.
@AndrasDeak what's that from?
Honestly, no idea. But it's all over the internet :D
according to the finest meme traditions (and I mean actual meme, not just an image with text) I have no idea where most of these come from
Hold on please; going over the transcripts since 4:15
@AlexanderO'Mara At this point, most everyone from all teams have written off every and any response from all other parties long before even reading them, what are you trying to say?
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I disagree with that
22:16
@JL2210 make sure you have a large cup of tea before you start :)
@FélixGagnon-Grenier That that's not productive?
I'm pretty sure a large chunk of us are, despite all our private estimates and expectations, hope for some reassuring outcome
fair enough, I would also paint myself in the "hope for some reassuring outcome" team
as much as I'd like to be a believer I don't think we're going to get any sort of reassuring outcome at this point
we're in too deep for this to magically turn into unicorns and rainbows
@GeorgeStocker mentioned that a communication may be in the works
22:19
i said “communication”
I don’t know its contents or length
@connectyourcharger you know what self-fulfilling prophecies are?
@GeorgeStocker Edited to preserve your exact wording
@AndrasDeak yes, I know what they are
Thanks. Last thing I need at this point is a game of telephone that says I promised things I can’t promise. 😂
22:20
I'm holding out until that comm comes around to decide what to do next, personally
(To be clear, I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot bind SE to anything)
This disclaimer brought to you by the moderator agreement and the letter “Y”
@connectyourcharger of course the face-value part of my question was rhetorical. What I meant was that making decisive claims about how others will definitely wrong you has a high chance of them saying "you know what? screw that" and wrong you because of that
Wait, wait. Can we pause? I'm never going to get caught up at this rate.
@JL2210 nope
22:22
I'm not sure it's worth getting caught up on, I kinda regret my time wasted here.
@JL2210 just pick a starred message from the time the room reopened to open the transcript window instead of live chat
@JL2210 just read faster than people can type
@AndrasDeak I mean, I guess I'm a nay-sayer here but I think we're all hoping for something that is highly unlikely and I think we all need to look at this with a sense of realism
being realistic shouldn't stop you from being diplomatic and open
you should separate your expectations from your communication
I think we've been diplomatic and open for too long without any fair diplomatic return
22:24
You can think something's a bad idea, then watch someone do it, then not tell them afterward that you told them so, even if you had.
In a move that is sure to be widely cheered, I answered this question meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/389950/…
@connectyourcharger there's no point collection or coupon system in life. You don't get to be unconstructive just because you had been constructive for so long. It's not how things work. Either you choose to be constructive or you don't.
@GeorgeStocker While I disagree with most of the points, I appreciate that we at least got some sort of response
@GeorgeStocker Upvoted. I respect your decision and I think I understand why. No need to get people all riled up again like I was.
Talion's law comes to mind @AndrasDeak
22:27
@SébastienRenauld As reinforcement or a cautionary tale?
As reinforcement of the idea that it isn't because something hasn't happened in the past, that it won't necessarily happen in the future and that we should go down the same path
@connectyourcharger note that George is just like any other mod, you're not looking for a response from him
that's how you irrevocably degrade every communication channel left open
well let's put it this way then - I will at least consider what SE says if they can issue some sort of official response within three days - a reasonable window of time seeing as this is a dramatic issue in which most of their network is involved.
@SébastienRenauld so...cautionary tale? :P
22:28
Fine :P
@Zoethetransgirl Reading the transcripts before your name was changed. Interesting.
@AndrasDeak at this point, it's relieving to see a response from anybody
@connectyourcharger They do not owe you that. You have the right to vote with your feet if you're not happy in return
@connectyourcharger there have been plenty of responses :P
Most moderators have been clear and open, but the moderators aren't SO/SE
22:31
I'm gonna sit this one out for a day and see if anything else comes up.
heh. have fun if you're just dialing in Mark
Evening @FélixGagnon-Grenier
I'm sort of up to speed :P
22:39
I would like to try to track down something I think I remember seeing long ago (but fear I may have stitched together from a patchwork of different SO-related memories): a SO question by a Palestinian user with a profile picture that contained the words "Palestine will be free" over a metal fist, answered by an Israeli ex-military man whose profile picture was a photo of him standing proudly in front of his tank. Does anyone recognise those users by those profile picture descriptions?
hmm, not ringing a bell
do you remember what the question was about?
Not the slightest idea
I think I encountered the users because of discussions about political content in profiles on Meta, not because I was searching for whatever the Q was about
do you remember the username?
or like
any other relelvant details?
Nope. Just the pictures. Sorry.
you might think he'd either share those details or use them to find the posts :P
I guess, just worth a shot
(And the fact that they got discussed on Meta - but I can't find anything by search, to my frustration)
Ooh actually
I think I remember Brad Larson commenting
94
Q: Are political avatars and profiles OK?

Benjamin GruenbaumAre political profiles and/or avatars appropriate? Should they be allowed? Some context: Today I've had a chat with this user: I'd like to hear what the community thinks about this. Full disclosure: I am an Israeli from the "other side", our chat was pleasant and on a positive note, we discu...

I wonder why I am awake at this time
Nice find @BhargavRao, thanks
@BhargavRao I have been wondering that myself for the past hour and a half.
22:43
And why I am on SO, even though I'm on mod vacation
@BhargavRao damnit beat me to it. was literally just about to paste it meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/267368/…
Until next Monday
@BhargavRao at this point, I think we're all addicted
despite all that happens, SO still as addicting as tobacco
I quit smoking cigarettes and it was way easier than not getting here, not even close
22:45
the real question is, how hard is it to quit fixing bad grammar
the stack overflow epidemic sweeps the nation
well. heading home, laters

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