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Zoe
Zoe
16:00
@rlemon oh, punishments too, if we want you off the site.
@Script47 real talk though that post was not really in good taste
free expression and all that but twisting the knife like that feels wrong
@Magisch when are memes ever in good taste?
When they're fun light hearted in jokes
Oo, a spicy Meta question.
like the meme that glorfindel is a robot because he's so good at deleting spam
16:01
@YvetteColomb Check your flags
Zoe
Zoe
Nevermind, the moderators deleted it. Per Tim Post: "This reaches the limit of the platform we're willing to give you. If you want to organize this, you're going to need to do it on your own blog or website." — David K 25 secs ago
Wow
I honestly made it to make light of the situation... I did sit and stare at the screen for a couple minutes after I wrote it before I posted it thinking it might not be taken as being as offensively.
Rightfully so imo
@Mgetz I'm dying XD
16:02
@Script47 start here for the reactions
Use dev.to instead
user3956566
@BoltClock thanks :)
@Zoe I can only imagine what the post was but I can't really say that's unfair
@StephanS I linked burning down the house earlier so it didn't feel right to do it again
Thanks @Tensibai.
16:02
@Script47 I flagged it as rude or abusive. I assume a moderator or CM person intervened. I’m not a mod on meta.se so I don’t know.
assuming it says more or less "please organize your revolution on discord instead"
@AndrasDeak organising a strike
*fastens seat belt*
grabs popcorn
@Mgetz No that fits perfectly
16:04
@AndrasDeak Do you honestly assume SE is going to let itself be used to organize a general call to action to disrupt it?
@GeorgeStocker I appreciate the transparency.
@AndrasDeak so the irony is that happened to the C++ lounge ages ago, they gave up on getting the mod tools they needed and decampped to discord
I can't expect them to do that
@Magisch I said "I can't really say that's unfair"
@Script47 Maybe in 6 to 8 weeks that would be just fun, now is too early IMHO
16:05
fair enough
following this chat is becoming harder
@AndrasDeak to be fair, double-negatives can be confusing
Zoe
Zoe
Another moderator just resigned
@Tensibai if there ever was a meme that needed to die was the 6-8 weeks one. It's used as a scapegoat too often.
@Zoe If this is like WP:FRAM on steroids which it looks like right now it'll be a trickle of resignations for a month or two at least
Zoe
Zoe
SE can still stop a lot of it
They're chosing not to.
16:07
If this is true, it means that some of the hunches presented here were right.
@Zoe can we have a drum everytime one does?
@Script47 Aww, I used the number by habit indeed, but I really meant it's too early :) sorry
@Magisch I gave up awhile ago and am focused on bringing appropriate levity without causing problems
@Zoe thanks, comment deleted
Zoe
Zoe
@StephanS Yes! As long as you bring drums
16:07
Another resignation, "If person A comes along and demands that I refer to them by their "preferred pronoun" (even if it is a mismatch for their genetic sex or the grammar of the language being spoken) and I refuse, that's considered an insult": christianity.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6718/…
@Tensibai fair enough.
Zoe
Zoe
... seriously? That's the change? That's actually a good change
@Zoe words I want to hear when SO changes something
This could've been the culprit: "I will not be signing the new CoC if –as they have adamantly insisted will be the case– in includes a requirement for pro actively taking action along with something I fundamentally disagree with."
@Zoe I suspect we're missing some subtlety
Zoe
Zoe
16:10
@AndrasDeak Probably. But as a foundation, that's not too bad a change. We might be missing more changes though
Read further. It's explicit: "If person A comes along and demands that I refer to them by their "preferred pronoun" (even if it is a mismatch for their genetic sex or the grammar of the language being spoken) and I refuse, that's considered an insult. Now if I avoid pronouns altogether by sticking to proper names or disengaging from the individual, that's being considered an insult too."
@Zoe definitely
What does re-licensing have to do with this situation? Why is it repeatedly brought up?
This is it folks. This is where people slowly shift into their own groups (as more information trickles down to us).
@OrangeDog Its called deadnaming
Zoe
Zoe
16:11
^
@KevinB because that's the previous (three weeks ago) issue that's still unresolved
deadnaming?
lemme google
Deadnaming is when you call a trans person by their old name instead of their new name, if they have one
Uuuh, that's not how I read that quote at all
Zoe
Zoe
@AndrasDeak Using the name someone was born with instead of their-.. that ^ but not necessarily limited to transpeople. Also applies to non-binaries
16:12
@Orangedog to what i find (I didn't know the term), dead-naming is ACTIVELY using the wrong one (like calling someone a pre-transition name). If I make sure to call someone the name they show, and not give that person any gendered pronoun.... I don't read this as deadnaming.....
Yeah so I dunno why they're saying it's deadnaming
It's not deadnaming
I would file that under incivility, personally
thanks, I'm not going crazy then
It's the same in principle as deadnaming
avoiding using pronouns alltogether was always seen as a compromise where I heard about it
16:13
But most people just call that misgendering
> Now if I avoid pronouns altogether by sticking to proper names or disengaging from the individual, that's being considered an insult too.
@OrangeDog there's a difference between "you're Julie now, but I'll keep on calling you Julio". and "I'll call you Julie and not give you a gendered pronoun, since I disagree with that piece". It's sidestepping the issue altogether
I mean if that's going to be an affirmative requirement in the new CoC change they'll probably alienate a good chunk of their total user base
@Patrice why are you replying to me?
The first part of that post looks like its about misgendering, not deadnaming. How can you deadname someone on SE if you don't know their original name?
Zoe
Zoe
16:14
@Patrice Yeah, disallowing names only is too far again
Just so we're on the same page: saying "blurgax42 did this" rather than "ne did this" is now considered an insult? That's how I'm reading it.
@OrangeDog cause I need more coffee and someone replied to you with what deadnaming was -_- Apologies. My wires got crossed
Guess I'm going to be unpopular here (and probably banned by George) being forced to include pronouns in comments on request is pretty stupid, and I would also not sign that CoC. As if we don't already have enough comment noise. Enough comments directed discussing people instead of their content.
3
@OrangeDog you'll only be suspended when the new CoC is live, assuming that's in it
I deadname the Sears Tower all the time; I refuse to call it the Willis Tower. It's the Sears Tower. Everyone knows it's the Sears Tower.
16:16
Why should I give a shit what gender someone is
I primarily use names or singular they because 95% of people I talk to here I have no idea what their gender identity is and they dont state it
2
@Cereal it's a bit more complicated than that, but this is probably not the right time, nor place, nor mood
@AndrasDeak Caleb says that's what it is
@Cereal cause at stack, we're all about the people! Not about the content! :D... wait... I got that messed up, right?
Zoe
Zoe
@Cereal Because some people care about it
16:16
Are people ending a post with their pronouns? How obtuse
@Magisch I usually stick to "they". I guess we'll see if that's acceptable
Zoe
Zoe
That being said, SE doesn't have the facilities in place to enforce a pronoun clause in the code of conduct
SO relevance: kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/… The only reliable name you can use for someone is the name they tell you to use.
@OrangeDog I agree sir/mam/dog/cat/helicopter/you, I have enough trouble keeping up with it in real life and tend to just avoid pronouns altogether
Let's go back to IRC where everyone was genderless
Zoe
Zoe
16:17
@AndrasDeak "they" is widely regarded as a gender-neutral pronoun. Some people don't like it, but I have met very few people like that (and I'm in huge LGBTQ servers on Discord)
even some people I consider friends on here I don't know their gender
because its never come up
@Zoe I'm glad to hear that, thanks
@Cereal or lied about it.
I've heard objections to it, though mostly from a linguistic side
Who doesn't following Rule 29 and 30 here anyway?
16:18
@Magisch main problem when someone ask me to speak about them with singular they explicitly is that my native language map that to actively avoiding referring to this person, that's pretty offensive deep in my brain and I feel like being insulting instead of being respectful.
Sometimes moderators must directly address people, not content. So naming becomes important for them.
Zoe
Zoe
Inb4 "Greetings, user1237549768!"
@Tensibai really? I've heard it every way you can slice it. Some people prefer they. Some people prefer specific pronouns, some people prefer the name or an abbreviation
@Zoe I mean, username plus second-person will get you a lot of mileage
user3956566
alright
16:19
I can't honestly claim I've wasted more then a passing thought on the topic in the past years though, outside avoiding assuming
Zoe
Zoe
@Magisch Yeah, but some languages don't have a concept of "they".
@OrangeDog why would I ban you for that?
user3956566
I've put my neck well and truly out there
How comes a detail, a question of pronoms, in a community where people come from everywhere and aren't at ease with English in the first place, how can such a stupidely trivial question become of such importance that it must clive the community ?
user3956566
1
Q: So disappointed to see the fall out this week

Yvette ColombI stepped down as moderator on Stack Overflow 10 days ago. There were many reasons, mainly tiredness and being time poor, if I'm to be honest with myself. Participating on this network has always been an emotional challenge for me and I always assumed it was because of my personality. Watching t...

16:19
In general, it's the polite thing to do to refer to someone by their gender pronouns, but we're all talking to each other through a computer, most of us don't use our real name, so how are we meant to know?
@Zoe So...hmm. Might what Caleb wrote also imply that "they" is unacceptable if someone prefers ze/ve/xe/...?
@Magisch My language have no neutral gender, if it's used it's to actively avoid refering to someon, that's true for a bunch of latin languages
Whatever happened to "Assume Positive Intent" /sigh
@YvetteColomb incognito avatar!
Zoe
Zoe
@AndrasDeak Possibly, in which case, the rule has gone too far.
16:20
@Zoe In my language (german) referring to someone as neutral is an incredibly offensive thing, almost dehumanizing
user3956566
that's how I feel - honestly - please be kind while I sleep.I'm going to bed now
user3956566
@AndrasDeak oh they're different for the different sites!
@Zoe huh. I'm starting to understand why everyone involved is talking about an intergalactic can of worms
@DenysSéguret Add religion. boom.
@YvetteColomb Good night!
user3956566
16:20
I love this one!
I've seen this very subject tear apart communities of leftists who are all generally on board with the concept. I don't know how, or why, SE expects to wade into this issue in an official capacity.
Zoe
Zoe
@Magisch in my language (norwegian), we have he/she/it and no neutral forms aside it. There's nothing similar to "they"
user3956566
REad the avatar!!!
@Zoe it also means that the first two events are probably indeed related
16:21
@Zoe it would be similar to they in german I guess
that would be deeply offensive, however
Zoe
Zoe
@AndrasDeak Possibly
If I called someone "it" to their face I'd expect a punch to land on me, and not undeserved
@ChrisBaker side-note: this probably has to do more with being a liberal than being a leftist
I suggest we all switch to Finno-Ugric languages which have no notion of gender in the grammar
Zoe
Zoe
@Magisch yeah, more or less. Aside with the polite Sie, which we don't have, and some minor use differences, it's the same
even inanimate objects use gendered pronouns here, like the door as a noun is considered female, so it's extra hard
16:22
#BringBackThou
Zoe
Zoe
Same here
To sort the array one must use .sort
I've had people think I'm a woman all the time
because my avatar is ambiguous
I think it's hilarious
16:24
is "I stepped down as moderator" the new "Why a quit Buzzfeed"
@StephanS no, because people actually care about the former
The other day a client I was emailing thought nick was short for nicola
@Cereal you're not a woman?
@StephanS I can be whatever you want me to be bb
@AndrasDeak I mean actual leftists, not libs
16:25
mmm I have some upvotes to undo
@Zoe @AndrasDeak What you're missing is that it's requiring people to affirm something they believe is a falsehood. It doesn't even have to be a religious belief.
@ChrisBaker and I'm saying that's not a strong indication of anything
real talk though, can we not get into joking about this here now
@jpmc26 what do you mean?
I know free expression and all that but please, no
16:26
Can't have turmoil without humour
surely we can take people's identity at face value?
@Cereal come to me and I'll paint you like one of my french girls
@AndrasDeak What do you mean by "identity"? And is it the same thing as what someone else means?
you can plug in your ears and go "lalalalala" but a transgender person will still be transgender
Zoe
Zoe
@jpmc26 Ugh, there's still a massive difference between just accepting something and agreeing. You can accept something without agreeing to it
16:27
@Magisch That's why I struggle with it everyday
@Zoe Not according to Caleb's post. Even recusing yourself from a situation where it becomes an issue will not be allowed.
What? I'm saying that I have watched a group of self-selected leftists fall into infighting over the subject of pronouns, and that if they can't easily work it out I have little expectation that a group of international software developers and a corporation are going to sort it out in a way that makes sense.
I really don't want to be a party pooper but please not this debate not here
Zoe
Zoe
@jpmc26 That's an implementation problem
@Magisch fair enough
16:28
I prefer to never have to use the timeout
@AndrasDeak What if I believe that a person's self identification doesn't constitute truth?
Zoe
Zoe
@jpmc26 Does it matter?
@jpmc26 then you'll feel uncomfortable in 2019 :)
2
but Magisch is right, this won't help, on the contrary
well, I was planning on having a productive morning working, then I saw 2k new messages here since Friday.
@Zoe Absolutely. If you require me to call someone "she" when I believe them to be a "he," you are requiring me to utter a statement I believe is false. That is "There are 5 lights" territory.
16:29
19 hours ago, by Andras Deak
@Joshua It might be the root of the conflict on some way, but bringing this subject which is in itself an insurmountable topic to discuss even among people in person with beer in hands, will not help resolve or de-escalate the conflict we have.
So I just got home, and I leave my PC on while at work, there was 1490 messages in The Meta Room waiting for me...
@AndrasDeak Oh, I've been uncomfortable for quite longer than 2019.
time to close this tab, so I'm not distracted and actually get some work done
@jpmc26 I don't think that's true ;)
Zoe
Zoe
@jpmc26 so use "they". No gendering, usually no reaction. Again, implementation problem if the CoC is as strict as I think it is, but that's beside the point
16:30
@Zoe the rumours of the CoC mark that as a violation as well
@Zoe That would not be in compliance with using the person's preferred pronoun.
Just start referring to everyone as "you"
Zoe
Zoe
@SébastienRenauld Implementation. Problem.
I'm talking generally, outside the scope of SE
@NickA just hit refresh :-)
Happens to me all the time with SOCVR
So...seagulls. What's the deal with them?
16:32
I did :P, but it's fun to see
Would be much easier to get rid of pronouns altogether.
@AndrasDeak They are a plague on my city
@AndrasDeak them?
I propose a neutral clicking sound instead.
Pelicans are much more fun, but they are very creepy when they yawn
16:33
Yeah.... don't see them round here
I had a swan hit me with its wing when I was 8
despite deceiving looks, swan wings pack a punch
the more I think about it, I can't remember the last time I used anyone's pronouns on this site, I mostly refer to people by their usernames.
@AndrasDeak Get that cursed video out of here
@Magisch they are primarily feared here for their bites, actually
Zoe
Zoe
16:33
Speaking as someone who's very up to date on pronoun use: there's no way to make everyone happy. But there's still ways to make it better - this isn't one of them.
If this issue really is about use of names for transgender people, it means the objecting (now ex) moderators want to deliberately go out of their way not to use the current user name of an SE user they are interacting with. Because a trans person presumably uses their preferred name as their current username.
I think I still prefer pelicans
Since when was this about names
I'm so confused
@Zoe We'll just need to force everyone to enter their preferred pronoun on sign up
Can we cut the speculative discussion about mandated pronoun use right now
nothing good will come of it
16:35
can my pronoun by "jon skeet"
@BoltClock Interpolating from resignation posts,
Is it speculation, though?
No more pronouns, period. Easy solution.
@Magisch fire in the hole
the christianity mod resignation has it as highlight
16:35
@Raedwald you're interpolating wrong
@StephanS skee/skey/skeeer
@MadScientist Possibly so.
@Cereal Thank you, I needed that today
I'll just go find some dinner
@Zoe What do you mean "implementation problem"? Denying someone the right to refrain from acting because their conscience does not allow them to act in the manner you specify is an "implementation problem"? I classify it as a values problem.
And a "lack of tolerance" problem.
16:39
If A wants A', and B wants B', and A' and B' are mutually exclusive, you're gunna have yourself a problem
Do they have to be?
Well no, look at the christianity se
But SO picked a side
So they made a problem
If the christianity resig is right, and you cannot use "they", then it's one side pushing way, way, way too far
It'd be like if the mods of the christianity subreddit proclaimed that judaism is the only form of christianity that's acceptable
You'd have a problem
Quick disclaimer, I generally have no issue with people wanting to be addressed as a pronoun or another; I, however, have major beef with not being able to use a feature of the english language ("they")
16:42
You can actually get around this by using their username
@SébastienRenauld oh that won't help you if someone clips one of your comments out of context
It's... actually the complete opposite
@BoltClock ?
@BoltClock mods must refer to users as the wrong pronoun?
That'd be an interesting decision
No, I mean the CoC wants requires people to use they if asked
I don't know, at least that's what I heard
16:43
According to christianity.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6718/… - using a username instead of a preferred pronoun (if one is asked) is a violation of the new CoC (assuming that post is accurate)
Well tits
I want my pronouns to be sire and/or king
@TylerH Wat. The world has gone insane.
Is there a section of the profile I have to fill out
@Cereal pull request - may I also use "my liege", "your majesty", and "my lord"? just to round things out
@Cereal I want to be addressed by the full suite of titles as Richard from LFG comics
16:44
or the classic Game of Thrones title, "Your Grace"
@StephanS Whichever you have on hand
And this is why having outgoing mods publicize the whole thing right now was a bad idea
At least in Robert Harvey's case, which I was happy to feature again as every one of us on SO mods agreed to keep it featured, it wasn't about the policies
Are people really flagging comments with "tits"? :/
seems like doing things that would be regarded as a bad idea is popular over the past 48 hours
16:45
of course
@Cereal I once adopted the display name "Sir E_net4 the Downvoter", which statistically increased the chance of receiving revenge downvotes. Ah, statistics.
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic Strictly speaking, the tit is a bird. So it's not even offensive
@Cereal My point.
Realistically, I was speaking of tits in the plural, who reside in a well
16:47
I want my pronoun to be an obscure character in a little known encoding please.
They're exasperated tits
Because they're in a well
Zoe
Zoe
@jpmc26 call it what you want - I call it a good idea with bad execution
@ModusTollens Like the Greek question mark that looks just like a semi colon?
@TylerH that would be a start :D
16:48
I’m hesitant to call it a good idea. It infringes on my rights to believe in my own constructs.
@SterlingArcher you could paste in in just about any chat and it would be mildly related
Actually, I think sara did that recently
Zing
@DenysSéguret It isn't trivial. It's a major political debate because consequences are being attached to it. Here's one side of a well known example.
16:49
My preferred pronoun is a string terminator. Just always put that in front of what you're going to tell me.
5
I’m sure there’s been lots of fun since I stepped out
@ErikA Nice to meet you, \0Erik.
@E_net4theMeta-Skeptic Nice to meet you,
fixed that for you
@BoltClock I didn’t agree. Please don’t characterize that I did.
Aside from infringement of personal beliefs, it’s ridiculous to enforce the use of pronouns, when in this context it’s easy to avoid them altogether
16:51
I write JavaScript. Nice to meet you, UnExpected token < in JSON at position 0
4
@GeorgeStocker Sorry
@weegee thanks for inviting me to the "Trash Can" but I already have a lifetime pass
@rlemon eye twitch yup
Im on the east coast of the US, the longer this thing stays featured, the longer I have to babysit the outcome.
@Cereal As a Rustacean, I laugh in the face of terminator characters. play.rust-lang.org/…
16:52
@GeorgeStocker Geez
Is a rustacean like, a sunken ship
@GeorgeStocker babysit makes it out that we’re children.
@GeorgeStocker IIRC you are only expected to commit 30 minutes of your day to moderator duties.
@SterlingArcher I was actually the first to use that term in this context
16:53
Interesting
I’m playing catch-up, so I’ll refrain for now
@TylerH Expected... on a regular day
I’m quite uninformed atm.
@SterlingArcher Sorry, had to star
@GeorgeStocker don’t work more than you have to, and show them what happens when moderators resign en mass
16:54
@SterlingArcher I apologize. There are a whole score of comments that had to be removed and more incoming because people want to add uncosntructuve thoughts on that meta post and its responses. Most of the active mods aren’t going to be up much longer, leaving one or two of us to keep an eye on things. That’s not enough on a normal day, let alone today.
"not wanting to deal with it" shouldn't be the criteria for a featured question on Meta. is it worth the masses knowing about it? yes, yes it is. if you can't deal with the job, log off. and I really hope this doesn't sound rude. but "I don't wanna deal with it" kinda flies against the role you willingly took does it not?
16
@GeorgeStocker sounds like you need a good break bud. You should go grab some coffee/tea and go decompress for a bit :) stress is bad
I've done 13, 14, 15 hours on this today alone and got absolutely nothing else done. There's a reason we had to lock Sara's answer for a while. I've had to keep track of at least two chatrooms and now a third. I've eaten, thank you, and I don't feel bad or like I'm being made to do any of this, but I've got to spare a thought for myself in the fact that I got nothing else done
3
@GeorgeStocker Then lock it for a while instead of removing it from featured posts
Also it's 1 in the morning
16:56
@BoltClock get some rest m8
So I've been at this since at least 10 in the morning
sleep deprevation is bad for you
So is moderating SO
@BoltClock get some rest
For real guys, you’re not the only mods. Don’t kill you self because the internet is ruffled
16:57
@BoltClock and it's 3am here. Been around ever since the start of Robert's post
@SamuelLiew I imagine I'll be up until then my time if I want to get anything done before I really call it a night
I woke up at 7:30am and wasn’t late to work, does that count for something?
@SterlingArcher I mean, from the looks of it, they might be
By the way everyone, always backup stuff you need later in case they get removed without warning. big hint
That'd be one way to get more traffic to SO. Just start over
lol
16:59
@SamuelLiew you mean our content?
one time my tire was removed from my car without warning @SamuelLiew
@weegee any documents you deem important of course

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