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9:02 PM
Working on it.
3
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I'll potentially agree with harmful, though it's certainly useful at incentivizing participation. The trick is, of course, incentivizing the right participation.
 
Seriously. I don't know how it'll go over in general but... like... it's got to happen. The thing is, when you really need people to participate (e.g. create content because there is none), earning privileges for reputation makes sense... but it's so hard to earn reputation now, and the average person just consumes content... so they really don't have any way to participate at all.
@Andreasdetestscensorship Curious... since you mentioned it... what privileges do you think we should find ways to award without reputation?
 
@Catija That's a really interesting way to think about it...do you think you'd maybe keep it tied more to reputation on less mature sites?
 
Are there some privileges that we should just give to everyone without anything in the way.
 
voting
 
9:05 PM
@RyanM Good question - so few sites are "less mature" at this point, I'm not sure if it makes sense to bifurcate the system... that said, it's trivially easy to make it a site setting, it just adds cognitive load to people who participate on multiple sites.
 
there should be no barrier to indicating whether or not something is useful, at all, but we need to find a way to solve the fraud side of that.
 
@Catija abolishment or stopping from hiding tools? :)
 
@KevinB I very much agree in principle, but the fraud problem is, uh, difficult.
with a solution to the fraud problem, though, +1
 
part of the problem kinda sorta becomes less of a problem, if reputation is no longer a tool to gain power, but that's not really an answer
 
I'm not sure how possible that is, but if it could be solved...
 
9:08 PM
So... the thing is... "solving" it isn't going to happen but we can make it a whole lot better than it is.
... In fact, I sent you an email just a bit ago about some mod tooling improvements, @RyanM :)
 
@RyanM you know me, I am a firm believer in sending anyone who needs points to participate veeeery far :) On a more serious note, untie it from privileges, and I'll be happy enough with keeping it for all eternity.
 
@Catija Oh, thanks, please always feel free to ping me when you email me, it will greatly increase my chances of reading it ^^;
 
Good to know! :)
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Hiding tools. :)
 
@Catija dang it :)
 
effectively... if there was nothing to gain, outside of "i'm cool" from rep, the only problem remaining (which is a big one!) is the voting would still be impacting what does and doesn't get cleaned up by roomba
 
9:12 PM
-1
Q: Merge [apache-velocity] into [velocity]

Udihttps://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/velocity https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-velocity And also: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/velocity-template-language

 
similarly, if rep becomes meaningless, it would be, meaningless, if we just removed negative rep because it just makes people unreasonably mad for some reason and doesn't mean anything anyway
 
So, here's the thing. Maybe wrongly... but it's really scary to change really basic things about the site because we never know how people will react... Voting is one of those things. We know voting fraud is a concern but we also understand that... we're gate-keeping a feature that would otherwise be one of the few ways people have to interact with the site out of fear of fraud... and people who want to sock puppet can do it easily even with the current restrictions.
 
@Catija Seeing deleted posts (10k). This is rarely of great use to us, however, it sometimes is, and when it is, it can be very much needed. It's also a quality of life improvement. It also makes us more useful on Meta.
But there are others which are important.
Editing (2k), for instance. I waste reviewer time, and I can't make minor edits.
 
@Catija I dunno how would make sense if y'all had a progression system with a set of well-defined privileges that are available from the start.
 
Close voting. I have a very good track record with my flags, and you're wasting precious resources by having me flag instead of vote.
 
9:14 PM
what if... reputation just allowed you to do things more often.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine even video game devs (no offence) know that experience points is the laziest way of implementing progression systems. And the most boring.
 
in Bad Stack Overflow Reviews, yesterday, by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
List of ridiculous things in the system includes:
- having to submit 2 items at the same time (while they are treated as separate items in review!);
- not having an ability to specify different edit summaries for the excerpt and the wiki;
- restricting unilateral edits to wikis to a whopping number of 20K rep (users are able to create tags at 1.5K, unilaterally edit at 2K, synonymize at 2.5K, review wiki edits at 5K, get full access to mod tools at 10K, but edit tag wikis - no, can't have that!);
 
start out with a very low, conservative value, then at various tiers, certain things go up
 
So... like how flagging works?
 
like, say, at 10 rep you can cast 5 votes a day. at 125, you can cast 10.
 
9:15 PM
@KevinB How is that useful, and how does that solve any of the problems with not letting users like me contribute effectively?
 
and cap it out pretty quickly at the usual 40
it's a carrot.
 
Honestly, most people don't even need/use 5 or 10 votes per day.
 
the carrot still needs to exist for reputation to be a useful tool for attracting participation
right, it's a meaningless addition, but it's something you can alert the user to as they progress, alerting users of the features we want them using
 
can we just... have successful helpful actions to allow you to be able to do more helpful actions? Kind of like flags, but less restrictive.
 
@Catija I think I reached my flag limit (100?) a few days ago. I very rarely flag that much, but it was a productive day (or maybe not productive for my life...).
 
9:17 PM
@KevinB from my experience, even if there is absolutely 0 value in a number going up, people will do a lot for it.
 
If I could just vote directly... That would be much better for everyone.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Yeah. That works for edits and that's still what I'm proposing. Edits is probably one of the easiest things to fix because we already have a review queue for it, we just need to pick a number of successful suggested edits to award the privilege. E.g. 20 suggestions, of which 90% are approved.... or something.
 
@KevinB I don't think so. How many of the high reputation users do you see doing curation? Many don't, and the ones that do clearly would do it even without this carrot.
 
oh, then just throw a dart at the dart board and make it so (for edits)
can always adjust it
 
It could work for comments, too, but we would need a way for people to review the first n comments a person writes for them to get permissions to comment freely... so it's a bigger change.
 
9:18 PM
:p
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship I dunno, I found the close vote queue stats motivating
Never quite got to the top 20, but I'm #23 :-p (and I passed the person who was #20 when I started)
 
@Catija Comments are less pressing for actual curation and moderation of the site. It's very useful for new users, and I regularly scratch my head at users posting as answers instead of comments. Every now and then, they have something useful to comment with, but can't. But this isn't an issue for curation and moderation of the site.
 
@Catija yes, edits would be a great start. Something like what you said about approved edits (although you'll probably need to account for subsequent override if it happens in a reasonably short time before unlocking the new privilege if you want to make it truly robust).
 
The thing is, people who want to curate, want it without needing to be high-rep earners and you end up just frustrating those prospective curators by having limits set too high.
 
Commenting takes 50 reputation. Edits take 2000.
 
9:20 PM
i kinda like the mix of reputation + badges, i think it allows for a few varied reward systems. but reputation being a gateway to accessing those other systems at all just sucks
one could go years without being able to cast close votes, but know on day one that a given question is obviously off topic
 
My number 2 wishes are close votes (then reopen, then deletion, then undeletion), and direct editing. My third wish is to see deleted posts, but that's not as necessary for me to do my curation.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship don't forget the ridiculous requirement to be able to edit tag wikis at 20 000 rep...
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine That's why I linked to your message.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Yeah, I understand that PoV but from the info we get from user surveys, the two biggest requests for low-rep users regarding privileges is to vote and to comment - they can't ask for more details (to write answers and earn reputation) or get clarification from answerers to see if the answer they're reading applies to their situation.
 
💯
 
9:22 PM
@Andreasdetestscensorship yeah :) It just pisses me off so much.
 
@Catija There is more risk included in this than to actually just get around to providing editing and close/reopen voting privileges to people like me.
 
meh, 20k is ez
 
We need to consider privileges from both a curation/moderation lens and from an engagement lens. We have millions of people who want to engage but can't, so we do want to think about them - both because if we don't increase engagement, the site won't be around longer and also because we need people to vote if we want to know whether content is useful or not.
 
@KevinB Do you want access to my account for a week or two?
 
Meanwhile on small sites you can get CV privileges after your first answer.
 
9:23 PM
@Andreasdetestscensorship <suspended network-wide for rule violations> xD
 
you just gotta lower your standards for what questions you answer
 
@Catija You don't need that much engagement to keep it alive, unless your primary source of money is from selling usage data. You can still provide ads without engagement. We will still read the site, even if we interact less with it.
 
@Catija That's understandable, but why not discuss this on meta post when needed? I know it's already being done, but if you just ask about the prospect of certain change or what the community general sentiment is on a feature, it's better than rolling things out without asking
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship You earn more money from ads if they can see high engagement numbers, though.
 
9:25 PM
@KevinB I personally know a user in my field that got up to 20K in less than a month by answering any crap that even remotely resembles a question with crappy answers.
 
I'm one such user
i answered anything i could all the way to 20k
 
@Catija Well, if the ads are collecting usage data, that makes sense. That's why I prefer to block a lot of ads.
 
it wasn't less than a month, but it was very fast
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship I don't know that's the case but I will bet that we tell potential ad buyers what our engagement rates are when we're selling them on us as a venue.
 
jquery was a hot topic and most everything wasn't a duplicate
 
9:26 PM
@KevinB That defeats the entire purpose of the curation and moderation I do here. I have no interest in harming the site while also defending it.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship I don't follow. Why would ads need to collect usage data? The point of having usage data is to show good ads. The ads don't need to collect the usage data, nor does one need to sell the advertisers said usage data in order to use it to sell ads.
 
@KevinB I mean, that can't be done that easily these days. If I did it, even if my answer were somehow better quality, I might only get one or two upvote per answers
I could maybe get 10k rep in less than a year, but in less than a month? there no way
 
just gotta pick the right tag, like python, or r, or sql
 
@NordineLotfi That's generally the plan... it's just that for really scary stuff, we want to do a lot of planning before we go to meta so that it looks like we've actually considered things. And like... I don't like getting downvoted. :P
 
@KevinB well, early days have their benefits
 
9:27 PM
I am of course speaking generally and not about any specific company's business model.
 
@RyanM Because they use the data to analyze behaviours, for the purpose of making ads, which ads to show (targeting), and so that they can resell the data.
It's the data that's precious, not the ads.
That's what your employer gets. ;)
 
it sounds like your description is conflating the advertiser and the platform selling the ad space
 
i'm mostly being sarcastic, i know it's much harder to earn rep these days
been that way for... probably close to 10 years now
 
@Catija got you, that's fair. I honestly don't care about downvote as long as I have enough rep to talk in rooms (and maybe ask a question once in a blue moon)
 
IIRC Stack Overflow at least partly sells their own ad space, although I forget if they also use platforms to sell it.
 
9:29 PM
Anyway. I think we've successfully derailed from the point: providing curation and moderation tools for low-reputation users.
 
@RyanM I think it's all in house?
 
*all users
i'm not sure how google ads work, tbh
in terms of how much control the site owner has of the ads, whether they just get to choose which categories or of it's more individual ad supplier
 
@KevinB Well, no, we'd all like more tools that nobody currently has, but the point, I assume, is to provide them without going via reputation.
 
semantics
there needs to be a path that everyone feels is actually achievable to obtain the privileges
 
The privilege system should be designed so that there's multiple ways to unlock a privilege. One is the reputation ladder. Other ways are the editing privilege after a great record of editing, and the close voting privilege after a great record of flagging.
 
9:32 PM
reputation is no longer a useful tool for that
so, lets take a specific privilage as an example, that maybe shouldn't be available on day one for a user... close votes
what should be required to give a user access to close votes?
 
ehhhhh there are a bunch of issues with letting reputation unlock all privileges
 
Visited the site on 30 different days?
 
there's at least one 25k user whose total contributions to the site are one very popular question
 
historically closing questions has been done solely by "high rep" users, users who have earned the privilage
and, because there's somewhat of a shortage of such users it's now 3 votes. If suddenly there's a ton more users who can vote, does it need to stay at 3?
 
@KevinB 750 helpful close flags, and 90+% acceptance rate for all closure flags, and no more than 5% declined. (5% can be disputed).
 
9:36 PM
depends on how motivated the new group of users are at using them
eh, i hate close flags, mostly because they're lumped in with all the other "flags"
 
@KevinB Even if there'd be a ton more users to do the voting, there's still no point in excluding more than qualified low-reputation users.
 
err, that message doesn't exclude anyone
 
@KevinB Do you even remember what it's like to deal with them?
 
i probably never casted one.
at least, not on SO
my hate for them is in my experience on MSE
i don't want to raise a flag, flags are for moderator attention
close votes aren't that
 
@Catija My initial suggestion for awarding close votes. Shouldn't be much risk with that?
@KevinB Moderators don't handle close flags.
 
9:40 PM
exactly my point.
 
Neh, I don't care who handles my flags, as long as they're handled adequately.
It doesn't matter that some flags are handled by users, and others by moderators. It's a nice way to hide complexity which is irrelevant to new users.
 
flags, from a messaging perspective, should be for rare exceptions that need moderator attention, not "oh, this thing already has an answer over there"
 
We can safely disagree about that. I don't see any reason why flags should be for rare exceptions. I'm fine with awarding flags to lots of stuff.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Only risk is that no one would ever achieve it :P
 
750 is a lot
 
9:44 PM
@Andreasdetestscensorship 750 is, indeed, a bit too much
 
I think 50 would be sufficient.
 
i have 6k total close votes
over 12 years
that's a large chunk
lol
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I am an active curator, but only have 227 votes to close
 
gotta remember, not everyone hangs out in socvr daily
 
@KevinB Not really. It's a reasonable amount. If you have that many, you can be confident that the user has proven themselves. If you lower it, you lose confidence.
 
9:47 PM
@Andreasdetestscensorship so... are you saying I shouldn't be able to vote to close?
 
@Catija I achieved it long ago. You can always lower it later if need be.
It's much easier to lower the requirements, than to raise them.
 
Making it 750 would make it about as inaccessible as the 3k rep requirement.
 
ironically, even more so, @Catija
 
Then lower them when you're confident that you can do so safely.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine No, because reputation will still award it, so there's now 2 ways to reach it.
You can start now, and actually set the requirements high. Or, we can keep discussing it forever, and never reach that perfect level we're looking for, constantly worried that if it's too high, it's not accessible enough, and if it's too low, abuse will happen.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship no, no, by "I" I don't mean myself, but an abstract one. I happen to have more than enough unicorn points to vote to close, but I could have much less.
 
9:50 PM
:shrug: Abuse when you have to have two people agree with you is quite limited.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I know, but I don't think this is a good argument. You can always lower the requirements later.
@Catija Then why are we still only relying on the reputation system in 2023, when it's been in the way for so long?
 
@Catija tell that to suggested edit reviewers :) Joking aside, yeah, peer review always helps mitigate at least some level of abuse.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship maybe because the website is popular for it's reputation system?
 
If a grand new system is too big of a task to ever bring itself to life, small steps are necessary.
 
@NordineLotfi I don't think that's actually true... I think many newer users and potential users don't really care about reputation at all.
 
9:52 PM
@NordineLotfi I don't think that providing a small set of basic curation/moderation tools by means other than reputation, in any way takes away from the impact of reputation.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship I presume that the company is hella scared about making such a change, and for good reason. Just look at the drama with the like and subscribe "accept my answer" comments.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I honestly think that this could pass under the radar quite nicely. These are quality of life enhancements, not big changes.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship There's lots of things that are broken about the site - whether it's related to privileges, reputation, voting, closing... whatever. We only have so many resources and time to invest in things... and these changes do require investment. We have made changes where we thought they'd be valuable, such as lowering the number of votes to close from 5 to 3.
 
@Catija That one was a very valuable and needed change.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship provided they keep privileges for those that already had them under the old system - yeah, probably.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship do you expect me to read the whole transcript? :) I barely keep up, and I am also working in the meantime
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Yes. Don't expect the same in return, please. (I try to, though).
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship for sure - keeping track of live conversations is hard...
 
But in all seriousness, why have a discussion if we can't keep up with the arguments. Then we're all just throwing stuff at a wall.
 
If it sticks, is it spaghetti?
 
10:00 PM
@Andreasdetestscensorship well, it's a "me" problem - usually, I am able to read the transcript in full, but currently I am dropping in and out
 
@Catija No, it's cheese sauce.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Well, the discussion was going very fast today. :P I couldn't actually keep up myself, this time.
 
speaking of the argument to keep the way of reputation awarding VTC/VTR/VTD privileges - I'd also love to see it gone completely as a way to obtain them as many that get the privilege this way are simply unqualified to get it.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Well, that's one of the big changes we can't just easily make.
 
Just in case - I don't mean to strip them from those that already have it, just remove it as a way to get them.
 
Still a big change. It requires a complete redesign of the system. My suggestion doesn't require a complete redesign.
 
10:06 PM
Well... not that of a big one, frankly. Certainly doesn't require a complete redesign.
 
@Catija And also, before any of your colleagues get any ideas... AI is not yet sophisticated enough to determine who should have the privileges, and who should not. :)
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship There have been many ideas floated... I can't honestly say I've heard anyone mention AI.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship if that happens... that'll be the time I rage-quit the network
 
10:11 PM
Note to self: If I get mad at Oleg, tell him that we're using AI to award privileges.
 
i mean... i'm sure if you ask gpt for a solution to it it'll give you an answer
 
I think I'd rather leave GPT to writing limericks to tell a potential contractor we went with another option.
 
@Catija can't fool me that easily - you'll have to make an announcement first :)
 
I was about to ask ChatGPT: "Does Andreas deserve the curation tools privileges on Stack Overflow?", but apparently, they require my phone number to answer that question. And that after I went through the burden of giving them a temporary e-mail address.
 
10:20 PM
@Catija I guess yeah. But I just had this impression that some people would think that. It's true this isn't the majority though
 
oh, while you are here... @Catija does anyone know why MSE got a general discussion room this Sunday?
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship yeah, you're right
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Hmmm. Not sure what you mean :)
 
No clue.
 
10:23 PM
thanks. Huh, seems like nobody has a clue about why.
 
Did you put AI in charge of your servers? Did you name it Skynet? Is it happening, now?
 
probably just a mistake
 
not that anyone minds it existing, it's just weird.
@KevinB yeah, most likely
 
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