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00:05
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
... On the other hand, the comment you're referring to and I linked to, you were asked a serious direct question that you must have seen, but instead of replying to it you post a joke. I've got nothing against jokes, but you also failed to actually address a serious question asked of you. So no, I'm not being hypocritical. — mason 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
@Shog9 You're accusing me of a hypocrite because of this? Can you really not see how this is not the same as that? If someone asks me a question, I try to answer it. And scanning back through the comments here, no one has asked me any questions. I've asked a few question on my own. — mason 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
I think this entire conversation needs to go to chat, @clive - there are too many people talking, too many people moderating, it's chaos. I'm trying to move furniture for my wife, but if someone else wants to set it up I think it would result in a much more effective conversation than what's going on here. — Shog9 ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Daniel Schneider
Ok -- how should people express their support? — Daniel Schneider 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@Shog9 if by much more effective you mean an effective lack of communication, then sure. Can we please stop moving comments to chat and rampantly deleting comments until we have established a clear policy for when and how we should do so? — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
Can't have it both ways, @mason. How many days have you woken up with a three-digit inbox count? You're asserting that problems don't exist, that folks should be able to fill others' inboxes with abandon and then hold them accountable for every message they don't read. And you're gonna tell me you don't see the problem there? Step outside your own very limited experience for a moment; your actions in public affect others, and if you can't be accountable for them then someone else will be. — Shog9 ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Clive
Grr @Shog9, I really did want your thoughts on that :) But I get it. Sadly I reckon a chat with the mods in question would be an almost unfathomable waste of time, so I’ll leave that to others with more patience. At least I’ve temporarily been allowed to get my point of view across. No doubt that won’t last for long... — Clive 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
@Shog9 I choose to engage with the community on my own time. And when I do so, I commit to following through. I don't leave people hanging. If you are unable to properly commit yourself to the conversation, then you don't have to join it in the first place. Unlike you, I am not paid to be a part of the community. I volunteer my free time to do so. So no, I don't see a problem with ask you to answer a direct question that was asked of you when it's an issue important to the community. What problems am I asserting that don't exist? — mason 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
Ok, here's a conservative, clear policy to start with then, @tiny: at the point when there are more than a couple of flags and more than, say, a dozen deleted comments... The thread goes to chat. Possible that threshold should be lower, but happy to debate the specifics. In chat. — Shog9 ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@RobertLongson That question is titled "When are questions deleted..." and is not explicitly about "What can I do about it?" — Houseman 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@Shog9 I completely disagree with that policy, and I think that such a policy should be discussed with the community prior to implementation. I don't want to discuss it in chat, I think chat is a very poor place for that kind of discussion, as you yourself have told multiple times when I tried to start such discussions in chat. — Tiny Giant 55 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@MartijnPieters What other FAQ proposal? — Houseman 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@JamesKPolk I just wanted to document the remediation process. I tried adding it here: meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/388098/revisions But a mod rolled it back, and then deleted her comment explaining why. — Houseman 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@Shog9 now if you were to post your suggestion as an answer here, I could then post comments containing any requests for clarification or criticism that I may have. You could then either respond in a comment or edit to clarify.. In chat, it would just be a big jumbly mess that would never amount to anything. — Tiny Giant 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
I wrote up my thoughts on this five years ago, @tiny - it's a wiki, let's have it out: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/237978/…Shog9 ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
Thanks. Ok, but if I don't mention that the community treats questions often unfairly, I can make the false belief in the OP, that the likely downvote/closure of his following questions had been his fault. What if he follows these all, and then gets a downvoted + closed question + a Q-ban? It will be my fault from that point, at least on a moral level. Similars happened to me already: once I suggested someone to re-ask his question on site X, because it matches its topic better. He did, and... it was closed on a... well, dubious reason. — peterh 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
Ah, right, the old "it's ok to make people's jobs harder, that's what they get paid for" rationale. I pity the wait staff when you go out to eat - heaven preserve them should they forget to bring the water. — Shog9 ♦ 16 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@Shog9 a quote from the question there: "These guidelines are for main Q&A sites (not meta sites)" I really don't think we need to conflate this discussion with the discussion of comment moderation on main, unless you mean to assert that there should be no difference, in which case I could not disagree more. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
Check the edit history, @tiny. As I said, it's a wiki... You wanted my suggestions, you have 'em - now what? — Shog9 ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
I don't think anything in your answer there applies to meta. At all. I don't really know where to go from there as you refuse to post any clear suggested policy as an answer here to be discussed, and I think taking this discussion over there, or changing that post in any way is going to be not constructive. @Shog — Tiny Giant 45 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@HovercraftFullOfEels This is okay on the level that it is at least a consequent rule. However, on a strategical level is it a terrible mistake: the SE (company) simply gives up a huge user/visitor/contributor segment, puts into a gift package, and gives it to its market competitors. — peterh 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@HovercraftFullOfEels There are sites which, although it is not clearly mentioned, but are mostly for content which would be opinionated on the SO standards. Workplace SE, Codereview, SoftwareRecs and so on. In theory, opinionated/too broad things are not allowed even on them, but these rules are kept far loser in the practice. Some similar compromise site for "how to start X" questions would be clearly very useful. — peterh 20 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
That's about how I feel about this thread, @tiny. The guidelines Yvette posted here seem pretty reasonable to me, albeit a lot more conservative than what I've followed in my own interventions - so we may just be too far apart to agree. — Shog9 ♦ 17 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
I've posted clarification requests here, so have others, some have been summarily deleted, none have received a serious response. You obviously have an opinion on this matter, but you've been really vague and hand-wavy about it and refuse to post what you think the policy should be as an an answer or address any of the clarification requests here. I'm trying to be constructive, but it really looks like y'all aren't actually interested in discussing this or having a clear policy. — Tiny Giant 40 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@Shog9 if you're in support of the policy proposed in this answer, would you mind addressing the clarification requests that have been posted this far (and possibly undeleting the ones that were deleted until they can be addressed?) — Tiny Giant 50 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
Y'all can continue the discussion in chat I'm really only interested in the responses to the clarification requests that I've posted, I assume according to the policy stated in this answer, such responses should be posted in the comments here or as edits to the answer. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@HovercraftFullOfEels A similar clear bad strategy is that the sites mainly close questions posted on the bad site, instead of migrating them. They could be migrated, they simply don't do. If they would migrate, the newbies would get a positive experience about 2 sites. Offtopic closed questions (+downvotes, negative comments, q-ban, etc) cause negative experience and shows them only 1 site. — peterh 19 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
Relevant nice read, waiting your downvote. — peterh 7 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@peterh Added your information to the answer below — Houseman just now
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
Here's the issue, @mason: replying to dozens of comments in a single thread is hard, tedious, error-prone and mostly pointless. But you're asserting that it is both easy and my job and definitely the prerogative of anyone here to add as many such comments as they want without fear of moderator intervention. I find that problematic. I find it even more problematic that you don't appear to have a backup argument for situations in which the author is not getting paid to be here. In short, I think your argument here is bunk and I'm personally offended that you had the gall to make it. — Shog9 ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by BSMP
It seems like the screenshot you linked to in your edit description already explains her reasoning. — BSMP 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@BSMP That is also true. — Houseman 35 secs ago
01:39
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
...I'm willing to forgive that. I understand it's been a stressful time for both staff and moderators lately. Let's get back on track shall we? — mason 27 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
@Shog9 I'm making the argument that if you're spreading yourself too thin, if you think that this is error prone and pointless, then you should not be here doing it. I would like for you to engage with the community - but if you are unable to do so and follow the conversation, then cut back. I am able to keep up with the conversation here and on other Meta threads fairly well. The UI could be better, but it's been working for years. I am here to help shape this. I don't appreciate you accusing me of treating people in my personal life poorly in since deleted comments. — mason 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@peterh the lesson there being that unless you are active on the target site, are well acquainted with the topicality of said site, and you're absolutely certain that the question would be accepted on the target site, you should not suggest that someone re-ask their question there. It's one thing to say the question is off-topic here as someone who is active here and who understands the topicality, etc. It's an entirely different thing to say the questions is on-topic somewhere else when you don't have those experience necessary to determine that. — Tiny Giant 14 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
As a reminder, I'm still waiting for 2 of my 5 clarification requests to be undeleted, and for an explanation of why they were deleted in the first place so that I can avoid the deletion of my comments in the future. @Shog9 — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
And I'm making the argument that if I find it exhausting, @mason - and I do find it exhausting - then what about folks like Yvette, whose answer below has gotten 60-some comments in the past day? What about the other mods who've been trying to hash out various things here? You have 10K - go look at the most-commented list. Most of these folks are volunteering to be here, same as you - they have day jobs, they have other responsibilities, they can't spend all day on it, they depend on the other folks here to help keep things sane. — Shog9 ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
It's my weekend; I don't have to be here. But I saw the mods getting piled on, and... I felt shitty about it. Because they're not getting paid for that, not even on a week-day. And yet still they took the time to come here, to handle flags, to respond in the discussions, to try to keep order. No one could demand that of me; I couldn't demand that of my co-workers. But y'all seem to be demanding it of them, while denying them the chance at an orderly discussion, denying them autonomy to exercise the judgement they were elected for. And that's kinda messed up. — Shog9 ♦ 38 secs ago
02:33
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@TylerH Github has a very nice issue tracking service. They can create an issue-tracking repository. — JL2210 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@peterh People here don't care enough about users who can't be bothered to read and follow the rules to migrate their questions. — JL2210 46 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
...First, it needs to stop. Because you can't effectively communicate with someone if you put them under threat. Then we need to work together to find common ground to get a solution that works for users, mods, and staff. I don't know what that solution is, but I'm confident that if we start by asking those questions, together we can come up with something. — mason 12 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
@Shog9 I do not personally have the time/dedicate/energy to be an elected moderator. I recognize the sacrifice that takes. Unfortunately, we can't just side with people because of the amount of effort they put into the site. I personally do not represent the community - merely one tiny piece of it. But I can see how the community feels about the changes being forced on us. These recent changes are being met with significant backlash, yet they're being pushed through. That's not right. — mason 19 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
@TinyGiant I feel like you've got a dog in this. Not sure of the proper way to invite someone to chat, feels like the sort of thing a Private Message system would be good for. But care to join us? — mason 23 secs ago
03:15
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@MarkAmery I'll revisit this later and try and address your concerns with an edit — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Bhargav Rao
By voting on the question. Once it receives some upvotes, then we can remove the synonym. — Bhargav Rao ♦ 45 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Samuel Liew
Teams profile update is in progress. See also meta.stackexchange.com/questions/319375/…Samuel Liew ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
I thought Google no longer uses the information in the meta tags(?). — Peter Mortensen 18 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
"Unjustly closed posts, a system whereby there's a review queue for them": There is. It doesn't work. — JL2210 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
1.5k+ reputation users can see both upvotes and downvotes on a post; alternatively, use this StackApp. — JL2210 32 secs ago
03:59
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@JL2210 Rules should make it much more easy. — peterh 18 secs ago
04:17
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Gourav
No, @PeterMortensen the informtion is still used. — Gourav 35 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JGreenwell
@Kevin I used to go to the Python room and be amazed at the experience and wisdom that the regulars would give in regards to data, math, python, etc...Now its so quiet and the discussions so academic. Part of that I know is I have grown from a graduate student to an academic but a large part is I no longer see the regulars who worked in my field anymore and have no real ability to engage in interesting academic discussion (within my field) so yeah, some...where some varies greatly by focus and field — JGreenwell 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@peterh That's not what I meant. We have rules. Some people don't follow the rules. People that do follow the rules aren't sympathetic towards people that don't follow the rules. — JL2210 43 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@JL2210 Yes. Particularly if they have a bad day. — peterh 10 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by πάντα ῥεῖ
I believe the "How do I" is the culprit. — πάντα ῥεῖ 1 min ago
04:53
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by jkdev
If you don't like this proposal, why not? — jkdev 34 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Peter Duniho
@πάντα ῥεῖ: is this documented anywhere? — Peter Duniho 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by πάντα ῥεῖ
I am not sure if all the filters are documented. I just know about a few wordings which are usually rejected in titles. — πάντα ῥεῖ 21 secs ago
05:31
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Peter Duniho
@πάντα ῥεῖ: that's fine, but "how do I" clearly is not one of those wordings. There are plenty of counter-examples to prove that. — Peter Duniho 17 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Catija
This seems to be well-written and researched. It's not clear to me why it's being downvoted. I'm assuming you're hitting some filters, too, but that doesn't seem to be a reason to downvote. — Catija ♦ 1 min ago
06:07
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Peter Duniho
Well, I guess I can take solace in the fact that at least I'm not the only person annoyed by the title filter rules (I have even run into at least one situation where not being able to edit the title to the exact text of another one was a problem...I was just trying to fix a misspelling in someone else's post, which meant that there's a good chance the misspelling was actually intentional, because of these very rules!) — Peter Duniho 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Pedro Lobito
@SamuelLiew are you the only moderator around? Where are the rest of the moderators when we need them?! — Pedro Lobito 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Robert Longson
@Houseman the answer to the question says "Moderators do not have the time to be fielding frequent questions about comment deletions". That's your answer, i.e. let it go. — Robert Longson 1 min ago
 
1 hour later…
07:21
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Turamarth
07:47
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Temani Afif
For the room owner I would vote for people having gold discussion badge or probably another criteria to select the top users: meta.stackoverflow.com/tags/discussion/topusersTemani Afif 54 secs ago
08:05
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Ross Ridge
On most sites the standard seems to be simply whether or not the post gotten more than 3 or 4 comments. Any further comments posted afterwards get deleted. On Stack Overflow though the moderators are far too busy to enforce even something as simple as that. — Ross Ridge 51 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Hans Passant
It was Alan Cooper that came up with the idea in 1988. Microsoft shamelessly paid him a lot of money to incorporate it in VB, released in 1991. Delphi is 1995. — Hans Passant 46 secs ago
08:19
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Trilarion
@Catija "This is a bit broad and open to interpretation. How do you define "nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion at hand"?" I meant a rather strict interpretation of nothing to do like for example "I have a blue car." would be a comment that has nothing to do with the discussion. If there is any doubt, I would rather not delete the comment. I added an explanation to the answer. — Trilarion 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Trilarion
@mason "I would have upvoted this (I chose not to vote) except for the part about "moved to chat"." I agree. Still I think moving to chat is better than deletion. On the other hand, we don't have to do it if we don't want it. Moving to chat is unaffected by this question. This question and answer are only about deletion of comments on meta. If you want, just ignore the move to chat. See also What's the standard on which comments are moved to chat?Trilarion 38 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@TemaniAfif that' a really good idea. Write it up as a answer? — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
08:43
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Zoe
Comments suggesting a different answer should be accepted are usually picked up by the regex that enables single-flag deletion. The commenting part is not good advice, it adds noise. What OP accepts is entirely their choice, regardless of what might be better or more efficient — Zoe 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
yep and you're right, it's a tavern replacement. I'm trying to give the meta community control, as they've had a lot of autonomy ripped away of late. — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mithrandir
Skill is answering meta questions does not directly translate into being able to effectively moderate a chat room. Being able to write an answer is great, but handling an actively degrading chat situation is completely different. — Mithrandir 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Temani Afif
@Mithrandir but people actively writing answer in Meta knows very well how Meta work and I think they are good candidate to handle related chat room. I never said, they should be room owner but it's a good selection criteria — Temani Afif 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
I think it's a good idea. I looked at the badge holders - a lot of mods and employees, what we have left over looks promising — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
09:27
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@MarkAmery I've updated the post to address your concerns about chatrooms — Yvette Colomb ♦ 44 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
09:45
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Erik A
@Yvette I'm unsure how a general chat room gives us any control. Could you elaborate? Is the intent here that it's an easy line to the moderators to discuss meta moderation and featuring or something? — Erik A 48 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
I'm meaning the naming and possible election of room owners @ErikA It's another avenue for community discussion. — Yvette Colomb ♦ 20 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Braiam
Funny comment: some of this answer addresses comments done in chat in Shog and mason discussion, buried in a link in Trilarion answer. — Braiam 10 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
Good suggestion — Yvette Colomb ♦ 47 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
lol exactly! Going into chat rooms has been facilitating discussion - far less fraught than the tangled comment thread discussions — Yvette Colomb ♦ 44 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
please tell me you were not on a mobile — Yvette Colomb ♦ 14 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Braiam
@YvetteColomb actually, going to the chatroom was painful. I had to "load older messages" several times just to arrive where the conversation going on comments started. Yes, I could read the transcript, but I would lose the handy reply to this message without navigating to yet another screen. — Braiam 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mithrandir
This is already the name of the The Workplace main room; better to avoid the confusion. — Mithrandir 37 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Braiam
@YvetteColomb no, desktop. — Braiam 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
we can agree to disagree. I don't believe long comment threads are the right place for prolonged discussion — Yvette Colomb ♦ 21 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Braiam
@YvetteColomb I don't believe that either, but they are superior to chat in every way. — Braiam 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Erik A
Ah, step 1 would be to track down people that actually want to spend time in such a chat room then. The idea I had is that MSO never had a chat room because nobody wanted one. If someone did, they could've created one at any time — Erik A 54 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
I can live with hand drawn horses! — Yvette Colomb ♦ 27 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
Only hand-drawn horses, though. — Modus Tollens 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@ErikA we have an rapidly increasing number of chat rooms that have popped up under meta posts, so creating a goto seems like a good idea. — Yvette Colomb ♦ 14 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Erik A
Not to me. Reading back a discussion under a post will be nigh-impossible if it's in a general chat room. With per-post chat rooms being suggested instead of comments, it already becomes substantially harder for me to keep track of a discussion, if we use one general chat room I probably won't be able to follow specific discussions at all. And the tavern on MSE is rarely used for post-specific discussions — Erik A 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Trilarion
@YvetteColomb "I don't believe long comment threads are the right place for prolonged discussion." Reddit basically pivotes around prolonged discussions in comment threads. The comments threads there are shown grouped. Maybe that's a feature, limiting the usefulness of comments here. — Trilarion 37 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@rene omg I totally forgot about that room O.O — Yvette Colomb ♦ 6 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Possible duplicate: SO Tavernrene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Samuel Liew
Well, this is a question that only staff can answer, and it's the weekend... — Samuel Liew ♦ 8 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Room Ownering a chat room is different from being an epic meta poster. I would chose aan RO based on shown competence, not only based on if they have a badge or not. — rene 29 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Not that it wasn't tried before: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/348373/578411rene 12 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@rene would you like the honours of dupe hammering this question? — Yvette Colomb ♦ 45 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Temani Afif
I would chose a RO based on shown competence --> yes and I guess gold badge owner already have the needed competence. Of course, I am not excluding non-badge holder to not be room owner. I simply suggested one criteria of selection. — Temani Afif 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Maybe you need to expand your question why this time that chatroom is going to succeed. — rene 7 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by yuvi
I tried googling but couldn't find an explanation for it, that image is really good. thank you. — yuvi 9 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@rene I don't know! stop asking the hard to answer questions :) There's been a lot of activity in chat room discussions on meta lately - a dedicated chatroom might be a good idea for people to be able to air concerns — Yvette Colomb ♦ 53 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by yuvi
Thank you for all the downvoters who remind me why I'm hardly a part of this community anymore. It's really helpful to be mean to someone when he doesn't know something. Very helpful. — yuvi 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Exactly, so not a dupe for now. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by ivarni
It's used but google falls back to semi-randomly picking some text from the page when it's missing. That being said, just because something fails a Lighthouse tool test doesn't automatically make it a problem. Don't blindly do everything those tools tell you. If it's not possible or plausible to write a coherent and precise description it's better to leave it out. This is one of those cases due to how dynamic the content is. — ivarni 1 min ago
11:17
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mark Amery
Using "continue this discussion in chat", as suggested here, doesn't solve anything for two reasons. For one thing, it takes a large number of comments by the same user to even get offered that option, but that's not how most debates on Meta happen. I've participated in many arguments here but didn't know the option was even enabled on Meta sites here because I don't recall ever been offered it here. [1/2] — Mark Amery 43 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mark Amery
[2/2] Secondly, such chats don't serve as an alternative place to preserve a record of debate as long as comment moderation here remains aggressive and capricious, because the start of the conversation remains only present in the comment thread, and therefore - under the proposed new regime - liable for random deletion at any time. This post ironically serves as an example. @Shog9 chose to take some conversation to chat, but the lead up to that has been censored and so I have no means now of even knowing what the topic of that chat is; it begins with Shog rebutting a now-deleted comment. — Mark Amery 25 secs ago
 
1 hour later…
12:19
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Braiam
@YvetteColomb can you delete your last comment. That's a misrepresentation of what my answer is saying and since it's shorter, it may serve as a "abstract" of my answer, easier to read and digest, when it's not. — Braiam 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@MarkAmery left undeleted - they — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@MarkAmery when you move a conversation to chat all the comments that were on the post and undeleted get moved with it. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
12:47
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@RobertLongson I actually asked Yvette for clarification about that very line in the (now deleted) comments. She explicitly said that we are allowed to appeal comment deletion in this way: i.stack.imgur.com/QC7hM.pngHouseman 5 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@BSMP The screenshot in my edit description: i.stack.imgur.com/QC7hM.png does not contain her reasoning as for why she rolled it back — Houseman 21 secs ago
12:59
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@YvetteColomb Request for clarification: do you think it would be worthwhile to add "if there is something specific about your comment that makes it not a duplicate, feel free to ask about it on meta" regarding deletion appeals? As it currently stands I don't think it's clear enough that users CAN and ARE ALLOWED TO take this route to appeal a comment. It seems like you're only discouraging appeals, and not even mentioning the possibility that they can be successful, which is disingenuous. Or if you want, you can link to this Q/A: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/388105/773737Houseman 1 min ago
13:15
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
By discouraging appeals as much as you are, it seems like you're saying that appeals are disallowed, when, by your own admission, they aren't. That's the disingenuous part, and what I feel can be clarified. [2/2] — Houseman 1 min ago
13:35
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Lightness Races in Orbit
Thanks for your clarification, but Mark is right - you are dangerously close to libel in this post unless you stop presenting things you've made up as if other people had said them. Please reformat. — Lightness Races in Orbit 1 min ago
13:45
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@houseman spending time finding the comment, reposting it along with a question and context as to what it was talking about and asking why it was deleted seems like a lot more effort than just posting the viewpoint you had in the comment as an answer on the meta issue at hand. Also, if you find yourself thinking that posting your viewpoint as an answer makes it off topic then perhaps it wasn’t such a keeper in the first place? — George Stocker ♦ 56 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@Trilarion continually posting on the answer with comments related to the chat move are grounds for those comments to be summarily deleted. If we took the time to move to chat instead of nuking the thread it’s because we think there’s something valuable that needs to be fleshed out in chat. Ignoring it is not a good idea. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
14:11
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
Very Low Quality (VLQ) does not mean: this post is badly formatted or this is a bad answer. VLQ should only be used for things that just need deleting because it is nonsense, or a post in a foreign language or similar. It’s the this is just a pile of something random that was left in the entryway of the flat and now everyone has to step over it until the janitor cleans it away equivalent, and VLQ is your way of calling the janitor. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 54 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Morphyish
As I said in my post, at the time of the review there wasn't any explanation. I was added 6 hours after my review. It was just a snippet of code left on a question with an already accepted answer. If I was to answer to a question with a regex without any explanation about what it does, would this be considered high quality ? Seems weird to me. — Morphyish 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
Note that if a post is salvageable by editing it should not be flagged as VLQ. — Martijn Pieters ♦ just now
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Morphyish
Alrighty, thanks for the clarification. — Morphyish 23 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Morphyish
I reviewed the link in your answer. It seems I was wrong about what constitute a good or bad quality answer. I'll keep that in mind in the future. — Morphyish 1 min ago
15:05
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
@MartijnPieters (1) thanks, so it's <!-- language: swift --> , great — Fattie 51 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
it may be that the cocoa-touch should not have a syntax preference set. I don’t know enough about the subject area to make that call. That might be a valid Meta question to ask. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 52 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
@MartijnPieters (2) understood! looking here stackoverflow.com/tags/cocoa-touch/info it has the wrong "Code Language" down the bottom. ("lang-c" ... absolutely no connection at all to cocoa-touch) I could not see how I can change it to lang-swift. Is there a way? Cheers — Fattie 55 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
Us mods can make the change but I’d be wary of setting it to ‘swift’ if it once was the norm to be used almost exclusively with Objective-C. If that was the case I should not have a language set now that there is a mix of Objective-C and Swift use (ignoring post age) — Martijn Pieters ♦ 53 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
you're 1000% correct, cocoa-touch should not have a language preference set. it must and would inherit from either iOS, Swift or Objective-C. Can I change it? — Fattie 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
Sounds like a shoe-in then! Easy Meta mana if you made that a new post :-) — Martijn Pieters ♦ 13 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
yes, it's absolutely the case that it should not have one, it's just a library and is language neutral. it would and can only inherit from the relevant language of the question. (Sorry, above where I said "let's change it to Swift" I did not realize there was an option to have NO language override.) — Fattie 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
And we mods prefer it if there was a separate dedicated meta post that requested the change. Why was this changed? -> it was discussed here: meta link. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
thanks again (1) sure, happy to make a new post - i did so (2) thanks — Fattie 57 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
Footnote for googlers: add <!-- language: swift --> in your answer to fix the woe manually — Fattie 38 secs ago
15:49
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
Sounds about right but I’m no iOS dev. Side note: all questions that are tagged with cocoa-touch but not objective-c will have broken highlighting when we remove the setting. You may want to preempt this by editing them, see this search. And holy mother of... that’s about 16 thousand posts. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 13 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
Maybe then @MartijnPieters it is better to go with Swift (or I guess obj-c). ("lang-c" just makes no sense at all, it's a typo) — Fattie 23 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
@MartijnPieters !! they all have iOS (or Mac) !! Right? :O — Fattie 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
There is no obj-c highlighter. The objective-c tag also uses lang-c; it is close enough. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 18 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
Same problem as with setting a preference on cocoa-touch: there is no single iOS programming language in posts tagged with iOS. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 39 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by AD7six
@BhargavRao ping — AD7six 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
Wait, iOS is set to have no code language ! wth ?! — Fattie 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JGreenwell
I'm marking this as accepted because the main question was "is there a change with how all the moderators are handling comments" and this at least answers that question (it answers it with "we're working on figuring it out" but that's an answer and probably the only honest answer that can be given right now :) and because I still don't get the point of the other answer except "I'm going to do what I want regardless of other moderators" and I asked about all moderatorsJGreenwell 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
How can there possibly be confusion between an operating system, a physical device, a language, and a library ? Sure, users tag badly but there's no "confusion" here at all. — Fattie 27 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
Have to disagree with you on this one, @BradLarson "History of..." has nothing to do with anything. users tag badly .. so what? If these tags for an operating system, a physical device, a language, and a library had all came in to being on the same day in history - so what? Folks would still use them "somewhat messily" (exactly as with every single tag and every single question on the site.) — Fattie 41 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Jeremy.ca
Presented without comment, a potentially relevant recent ruling from the Court of Justice of the European Union: engadget.com/2019/07/29/…Jeremy.ca 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
? It is impossible to "make iOS" without Swift :) certainly, if someone asks the rare obj-c question they'd add that tag and override. (or - whatever - who cares? Who cares about a 1% problem when the situation is currently "just broken" ?? :O) ios and indeed cocoa should surely just be "swift", to make the SO site (overwhelmingly) work better. This strikes me as hair-splitting (to what end??) so I'll step back! But thanks a million for letting me know the in-answer tag to add to make that sucker work, cheers ! — Fattie 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
Suggested rephrasal: "It is better to retry carefully in 30 minutes what you wanted to say..." -> "It is better to take a short break and carefully reword what you wanted to say..." Other than that, I think this proposal is perfect. — Davy M 17 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Martijn Pieters
No, iOS is used for far more than just Swift questions. And we can’t just throw posts that predate Swift under the bus. Just tag those posts with Swift. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
I was the person who upvoted the comment (I flagged as dupe). — JL2210 43 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@GeorgeStocker yet again your continued attempts to derail the discussion are not constructive. Please let us have our discussion in peace. Everyone here knows that you have no interest in that, so please leave us be. There are moderators here who do want to engage in constructive discussion, its covered. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
.. I mean, I guess if the site policy is to cater for questions before objc, before swift, before .. punch cards! :) .. I mean, well, that's that. — Fattie 7 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
"No, iOS is used for far more than just Swift questions." Hmm, I don't really understand that logic: If there's an iOS question, and, it happens to include some code {sure, many questions may not include code}, that code will be Swift, so the code-look-option on "iOS" should surely be .... "Swift". I guess? (i) ok, regarding iOS questions, which do include some code: a tiny number will include c, objc, c++, java, etc. but (I assume) we couldn't care less about tiny numbers, (ii) regarding historic questions, ie those from before objC or before Swift .. — Fattie 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Fattie
So bearing all that in mind ! i can't see any reason cocoa-touch should have "lang-c". It just doesn't make any sense. It should have none, or (until apple changes again), Swift. Cheers! — Fattie 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Dan Rayson
@JL2210 Nice! Cheers JL! — Dan Rayson 16 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by eckes
I feel it very unwelcoming and a power abuse if comments are moved to chat, especially if they form a discussion of a side aspect of the question. It just kills the community coherence. — eckes 1 min ago
17:37
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
"Secondary discussion or debating a controversial point; please use chat instead" I don't think that belongs on meta. We discuss controversial points in regular meta discussion all the time. Such discussions may be more acceptable to move to chat if they get very long, but I don't think it is right to say that they shouldn't be posted at all. — Tiny Giant 55 secs ago
 
1 hour later…
18:47
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@JGreenwell point of clarification; in your question and in your comment above you ask for consensus from all moderators, in this comment you explicitly say you don’t need consensus from all moderators: what is it precisely that you’re looking for? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387843/…George Stocker ♦ 48 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Maybe not (only) at the end of the answer? — rene 24 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@rene you think it would be better at the beginning? I can see that. — Tiny Giant 50 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Answers never had the notion of lack of research as down vote reason. Those that applied that logic to answers might have to revisit all their down votes, not only learn a new trick on answer stubs. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@MrLister it subtle worded but it doesn't advocate that it shouldn't be downvoted — rene 49 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mr Lister
I'm afraid such a feature would be abused by posters to prevent people from downvoting. — Mr Lister 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mr Lister
@rene Ooh, a stub comment. — Mr Lister 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@peterh then you got the wrong lesson out of it. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@TinyGiant No. The lesson here that any time I suggest a site to anybody, I also warn him, that beware, there might be "surprises" (except if the site if friendly, SO is not (although much better than some years ago)). — peterh 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@TinyGiant No. I think it was the possible most polite form I could formulate it. — peterh 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
In this paragraph If you fundamentally disagree I think it is better if it start with you should still downvote but the grammar of that paragraph is above my skill level so I'm a bit wary to change it without supervision. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by kkarakk
amen. stackoverflow is very meta and obtuse and having a meta "community" with weight just accelerates that problem. let stack hire actual employees/develop actual mechanisms to solve problems rather than introducing messy self serving humans into the mix. It's the logical thing to do. — kkarakk 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@rene I've edited to address your request. Is that better? — Tiny Giant 13 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@TinyGiant better yes. Not sure if refrain is the correct word in this context? Isn't postpone a better word? As in: when in doubt, please check back later? — rene 47 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@rene "Once the answer is well and truly fleshed out, the template text can be removed and the answer will be just a regular community wiki answer." is as close as I got. Basically I'm trying to say that once it looks like an answer, it's no longer a stub, just a community wiki answer. — Tiny Giant 25 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
is there a cut-off where the stub is removed? — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@rene I prefer refrain over postpone. I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where it would be preferable to downvote a stub for being a stub, as opposed to editing it to not be a stub, or requesting clarification such that it can be edited to not be a stub. — Tiny Giant 13 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Okay. I missed that editing out bit. maybe it needs its own paragraph but for now it looks good enough for me. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@rene I've separated it out a bit. Hopefully that makes it clearer. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by charlietfl
Why the boilerplate which most users would not find if it's not in a help topic or coded into the answer editor? Aren't you just saying that partial community answers are acceptable? — charlietfl 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
I'm not understanding the downvotes here. I'm completely open to any criticism the downvoters may have of the proposed format or the idea itself. I'm trying really hard to be as constructive as possible here. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@charlietfl partial answers are acceptable, but if it isn't clear that the answer poster knows that it is a partial answer and is open to the community editing it or helping to flesh it out, the community will generally react with downvotes as opposed to constructive discussion and edits to clarify or flesh it out. This is kind of inherent to the system because ownership of the post is a big thing and we try not to step on anyone's toes that way, but the result in that situation is rarely good. This is to create a clear signal to the community that edits of all shapes and sizes are welcome. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
Right now there is no general place to say, “hey, I’m frazzled about x” and having a conversation about it. We have posts, and as we’ve seen comments aren’t great for fleshing out minor points of debate. Chat has always been that third place, we just haven’t used it lately for that. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@charlietfl "most users would not find if it's not in a help topic or coded into the answer editor" the idea here is that people who read this question will start suggesting to those posting partial answers as comments that this is an option and link here, or start posting stubs on behalf of commenters as I suggest in the proposal. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@tinygiant I think it’s a wonderful idea; and has got a bit of a stone soup feel. Love it. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Rub&#233;n
@rene Thanks . How can I dispute this? — Rubén 50 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
It looks like the mod handled the Low Quality Review cause by a flag on the post: i.stack.imgur.com/2TIN3.pngrene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TheWanderer
I like this idea for Meta. It feels almost like an extension of the "Community Wiki" feature, especially since incomplete articles are part of a normal wiki. — TheWanderer 17 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Rub&#233;n
@rene Thanks again :) — Rubén 1 min ago
20:01
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
Yeh it's the early morning for this mod - I undeleted it and Sam can explain why he deleted it. — Yvette Colomb ♦ 52 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@charlietfl I have edited the post to address your clarification requests. Is that sufficient? — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
Aren't chat messages less prone to be deleted than comments? — Peter Mortensen 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@RossRidge I posted the stats from Shog9 in chat with his permission. Basically stack overflow gets two orders of magnitude more comments than the next largest site, and meta.so is also in the top twenty sites network wide for comments: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/197436?m=46946697#46946697 in short, there is so much that we really need the community’s help in flagging comments. — George Stocker ♦ 12 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by BSMP
She states very clearly that she and other moderators are tired of constantly discussing why a comment was/wasn’t deleted. You then edited the FAQ encouraging users to ping moderators (via flag or meta) as not only the first thing but the only thing they should do if they disagree with a comment being deleted. — BSMP 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by charlietfl
@TinyGiant Makes sense. Am not a heavy Meta user as most aren't. Sounds like a bit of a culture shift to lower barriers to entry. Didn't really dawn on me that finding the boilerplate would be fairly easy over time when people see those links. If it does catch on and dev support is there to put right in editor would be really ideal — charlietfl 8 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@PeterMortensen yes, chat is explicitly for discussion. Comments have never been a good avenue for that, that’s why chat was created. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Rub&#233;n
@YvetteColomb Thank you. In the mid time I extended the original answer because another question was marked as a possible duplicate. — Rubén 45 secs ago
20:51
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JGreenwell
Honestly the last sentence is what makes this the accepted answer: The moderators are discussing Meta and we will be getting posts out here to keep people informed.JGreenwell just now
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JGreenwell
@GeorgeStocker I would like to see consensus - I will accept that full consensus is not how the mod team works (because that is simply the way it is). I had hoped that even if not every mod agrees that they would agree to follow some basic level of policy - but currently that is certainly not what we see. (so accepting this because it actually speaks to moderators not agreeing but working on it while yours basically gives a policy which only you seem to be following and I have seen mods actively argue against: esp. on the posts which have followed this). — JGreenwell 29 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@Rubén I'm not sure why it was deleted. I saw the post flagged and left it for the low qual queue to sort out. I didn't think it was low qual or not an answer — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
21:13
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
Normally when questions on meta get 10+ downvotes, you'll see comments criticizing the post or explaining why it is a bad idea, or wrong, or what-have-you. Why is that not happening here? — Tiny Giant just now
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