last day (17 days later) » 
02:00 - 04:0004:00 - 06:00

04:00
@GeorgeStocker Whether you agree or not, the community tends to see that as censorship. Chat is often seen as a black hole. And people aren't comfortable posting answers that don't address the question that was asked. And if we post new questions every time we need to respond to someone else's answer.....that'd just be chaos!
user773737
@Shog9 so the system works. An informed community lets you know how they feel about the sneaky stuff done behind their back (despite it being explained in a guide)
@Shog9 Do you acknowledge that part of the reason the mods got so much flak was because they announced it more of a "This is how we're doing things" than a "what would you like to see done differently regarding comments?" type of thing
user4639281
I don't think doing it silently was ever the answer.
@TinyGiant It actually worked shockingly well.
user773737
If, tomorrow, the government announces that they have listening devices in every home and office, and that they have for the last 10 years, it would be silly for them to say "but you didn't complain about it before!" when the revolution hits
04:02
@Houseman Except, it doesn't actually matter. You can say you don't like how mods handle these things, but they don't have a lot of options. They can either delete a ton of comments, or not moderate.
Those aren't the only two options.
Option #B has been the most common choice over the past year, and... It hasn't worked out all that well.
They can moderate in the way the community elected them to moderate.
so, that's one of those statements that doesn't mean much
sorry, but, to my recollection nobody ran on a "no deleting comments on MSO" platform.
Yes, they sure did!
user773737
04:03
You could... ask the community what they want in regards to comment moderation. And then act on it.
I get that it works but can we at least not do it in this important time of figuring out the important rules, because there are only a few hot posts that get that much attention, it shouldn't be too much to bare it for one more month or so
Okay, not exactly. But they ran without announcing that they were going to change the rules significantly. And if they were going to change the rules (or the level of enforcement of those rules) then the community could choose whether or not that was something they supported, by choosing to vote for them or not. Without a position statement, I think the expectation is to maintain status quo.
@user1306322 See, I feel like you're not quite picking up on what I said earlier. MSO gets a LOT of comments. Way more than you probably think. Way more than just a few hot threads.
like you don't set the rude backalley drunk hole guards to work the night on a royal gathering, you put polite professionals who are a bit more lenient (can't think of a better metaphor atm)
@Shog9 could you share the stats you shared with us earlier in the blue room?
Recognizing that’s a special ask
04:06
@GeorgeStocker feel free to post 'em (I'm busy retagging stuff for Bhargav)
@Shog9 I meant specifically only the few hot posts, not all of them
ease up on these few
is that too much to ask? I don't know coz I can't see deleted comments on either, so I have no such information
@user1306322 I don't think we need special enforcement that differs depending on the activity level of something. That's just frustrating for everyone.
I'm willing to take your word for it that there have been a lot of comments - especially lately.
@mason well, realizing that this nuking approach does work and it is efficient in saving mod time, I can't really say I'm 100% against it in all cases, unfortunately
user773737
I think user means to prioritize the issues. Fix the Hot Meta thing first, then focus on comments
@Houseman I mean relax on the nuking comment threads and deleting too many comments on just the few hot topic posts
user4639281
04:09
@Shog9 I'm sure it worked very well, I'm also sure it was the wrong answer and has very likely caused an immeasurable amount of harm along the way.
(because it's difficult to have a discussion when the discussion comments are getting deleted like it was any other non-important topic)
CommentsLastYear Site Name
10843943 Stack Overflow
887196 Mathematics
314044 Stack Overflow на русском
197615 Ubuntu
194638 Super User
183209 Electronics and Robotics
170622 Stack Overflow en español
169612 Physics
151944 TeX - LaTeX
148917 Unix and Linux
137719 Stack Overflow em Português
121887 English Language and Usage
105551 Statistical Analysis
105355 Worldbuilding Stack Exchange
99514 Meta Stack Overflow
89395 The Workplace
76880 MathOverflow
75602 Role-playing Games
74638 Magento
73201 Server Fault
@TinyGiant I kinda feel like the opposite was true. The results of stopping have not been good.
user4639281
Either that or you're entirely misrepresenting the situations and their similarity.
@TinyGiant I feel the opposite, but can you explain why you feel the way you feel?
04:10
@Shog9 What specifically has not been good?
user4639281
@Shog9 nothing at all may have been worse, that doesn't mean that silent deletion was good, just maybe slightly less bad.
@TinyGiant to be clear, it wasn't that I didn't tell people I was deleting stuff. You can poke around and probably still find instances where I'd wipe a thread and leave a comment noting that (along with a promise to delete further comments without warning)
It's that I didn't pre-announce it.
I feel like that's what a lot of folks are reacting against right now: fear of the unknown, of comments that might be deleted in the future.
Sure, folks are also complaining about comments that have been deleted; that's nothing new either.
why I feel nuking is sometimes good: some people just love arguing in comments, and it's better when the entire useless argument thread is deleted, so they don't even see it again, and there is no rep privilege level at which they can. It may cost us a few useful clarification comments, but that is the price of a clean post with no useless argument thread. And this took very little time from the mod to do, as compared to manually deleting every comment in an argument thread. How's this sound?
I have had a lot of my comments deleted lately. It's not just fear of the unknown. I feel like points that I have made have just been unilaterally removed from the conversation.
user4639281
@Shog9 that was perfectly clear, and my argument applies. Your solution wasn't the correct solution then, and it isn't now.
user773737
04:14
@Shog9 is that assuming good intentions? thinking that it's just a "reaction", as opposed to some kind of rational response?
@user1306322 oh yeah, that's my favorite
@user1306322 Who are you to say it's useless? I think that's an extremely fine line to walk. So fine, that we shouldn't even walk it.
the problem is, if you leave half a conversation, you've left the roots in the ground - it'll just grow back, badder'n before.
@mason often you just know it when you see it. Can't come up with an example, but you would probably flag it for deletion yourself if you saw it.
What I keep feeling that you've failed to address @Shog9 is why you need to delete them in the first place, if they're not rude.
04:15
I think he just did in that reply
@user1306322 On MSO, I tend to flag only things that are rude. There may be some exceptions, but I don't have a good mechanism for finding those exceptions.
@TinyGiant philosophically, I agree. Practically speaking though, my approach worked. Folks took the time to write answers or went and did something else productive.
@user1306322 No, he did not. He just said he deleted them, and they'll grow back if you don't fully delete them. He did not explain why they need to be deleted in the first place.
we're talking about mods trying to do the cleanup fast and kinda loose, this is the result I suppose
Of course, if we'd just moved meta to Google Wave 10 years ago like I suggested, we could've had the best of both worlds. I mean, apart from having to maintain Wave after Google abandoned it.
04:17
@mason because... they'd grow back? And they're useless to the topic at hand?
user4639281
@Shog9 and I don't think that goal is the correct goal to strive for.
We're a Q&A site... having good answers isn't the correct goal to strive for?
I very much do. Like it or not, Meta is still a Q&A site, built on a Q&A engine; if folks aren't producing questions or answers, they're effectively not really participating.
@Shog9 They may have moved on. But that doesn't make it right. That puts an awfully sour taste in people's mouths. I know I'm afraid to keep commenting after mods/staff delete something, for fear that I'll get some sort of slap on the wrist (though I've been more bold about it lately, due to the current "situation")
@mason you're half-way there then. We just need to convince you to write answers and Mission Accomplished.
04:18
@user1306322 As I already pointed out, it's too fine a line to walk to decide if something is useless, and we shouldn't be walking that line. Those "useless" conversations aren't hurting anything.
@mason when I was concerned about my thoughts not being addressed properly, I posted a question, and it was either addressed or downvoted and... addressed by commenters, which still satisfies me somewhat most of the time.
relying on comments for that is not what the site teaches you
@Shog9 I take it you're saying "Mission Accomplished" because I've stopped commenting after deletion. But I don't think you realize the ramifications of that mission you just went on. You leave a very sour taste in people's mouths. That resentment is not healthy for the community.
user4639281
@Catija not with regards to comment moderation on meta. If people want to post answers that's fine, but posting answer-ish stubs should be ok because it isn't really an answer and will get voted down for being half baked but someone else may come along and find that half baked answer that will inspire them to write a full fledged answer that they may never have thought of otherwise, and the original author may never have been able to write. Stifling that is never a good option.
@user1306322 You are conflating main Stack Overflow with Meta Stack Overflow. They are different.
no, you misunderstood me, I did indeed mean meta
user4639281
04:21
@Shog9 that is very not true.
@user1306322 I know you're talking about Meta, but you're conflating the community norms and objectives with how it works on main SO. They are different.
these days I tend to go into chats for faster and higher quality dialogue if I'm concerned with some issue or have some idea, like I'm doing right now
user4639281
They are still participating whether you regard their participation as valuable or not. I do, and so do others.
we'd be having this convo for days in comments, and it would all be deleted in 30 minutes
user4639281
@user1306322 chat is good for a lot of things, it's also really crap for a lot of other things.
04:23
@user1306322 People are busy, and don't always have time for active chats. Many devs are professionals, many have families and interests outside of SO. Chat is not a good fit. Comments work better, as they're an asynchronous form of communication.
@TinyGiant it's pretty true. You know how much knowledge about the system, about how it functions and how it got that way is contained in these metas? I can - and frequently do - dig up rationale for decisions made years ago, by folks who aren't even around anymore.
...and then there's the stuff locked up in comments that I can't even find.
@mason ok I get it now, but I feel like meta is much more prone to having long comment discussions than main SO so it should be even more difficult to moderate meta
user4639281
Ultimately, this entire conversation is likely to be a complete waste with regards to the larger community unless we somehow manage to effect change, which I find doubtful at this point. No future reader is ever going to sift through this, especially when it starts at the end.
@mason (I'm just sharing my current way of doing things right now, I don't mean to recommend it to anyone else)
@TinyGiant Except that many people just write comments instead of ever writing answers because they don't want to get voted down. Never deleting comments is just a way of protecting them from ever needing to risk downvotes... which breaks our structure.
04:24
@Shog9 Then perhaps the problem we should be addressing is the discoverability of comments. And moving them to answers doesn't necessarily make sense.
@TinyGiant that's not the point though. Nobody was ever going to read those comments either.
The goal is to come to an understanding so that we can do something useful on meta. This discussion is a means to that end.
are comments a place to have that discussion? or the chat is?
user4639281
@Catija and that's ok, other people can write the answers, and if someone else writes an answer that renders a comment no longer needed, lookit-that you have a clear cut reason to delete the comment.
@user1306322 chat tends to work better for a discussion of this size / complexity
comments work ok when... You can limit yourself to writing like 1 comment.
(spoiler: no one in this room can do that)
so what if we attach a discussion chat room to every MSO post so people don't have to wait for a mod to collapse comments into a chat room link, or users to propose to go to chat, so it can happen faster
04:26
@Shog9 I go back and read comments. Happens quite often.
make it a rule to make comments strictly clarification requests or edit requests
@Shog9 Not consistently... sometimes I don't comment at all. :P
that's also failing to write like 1 comment ;-P
I think @user1306322 's last suggestions was a decent one.
@TinyGiant So go answer this question with that? There's no answer yet that says that, just a bunch of bickering under the two existing answers!
user4639281
04:27
@Shog9 no not at all. If you have multiple clarification requests, you should be able to post them all.
@user1306322 I don't hate that. But as a matter of compromise, I'm actually thinking it might make more sense to just trigger the prompt to move to chat a bit sooner (the one that generated this chat room)
@Shog9 Ah... the Pringles conundrum.
@TinyGiant the problem is, that doesn't scale
run an experiment perhaps?
I still prefer the async nature of comments. You have to put more thought into writing a comment than you do a chat. Chat you have to talk fast just to make sure you're keeping up with the conversation.
What about the Wikipedia model of a Talk page? With threaded comments?
04:28
@mason what about having threaded discussions like on reddit?
haha precisely
user773737
costs dev time
well, right now this is all going to hell kinda fast so the cost might not be big if you look at it long term
@Houseman I think that'd be well worth it though. And honestly shouldn't be that hard to implement. I don't know a lot of SO devs. But I've read Nick Craver's stuff. They seem up to the task.
user4639281
@Catija err... No. That is a misrepresentation of the situation under Yvette's answer, and frankly is insulting. There I am trying to clarify the policy and have posted multiple clarification requests, some of which have been addressed somewhat but not fully. There is an ongoing discussion about those clarification requests under in a chat under that answer.
replies are already kinda threaded, you just need to add a margin in css
04:29
@mason the problem is, comments require only slightly more thought than chat, but a LOT less than an effective answer. So you end up with something that's much more "chat-quality", but without, y'know, the option to just skip all the work trying to cram thoughts into 600 characters.
user4639281
I have been insulted, derided, and gas-lighted(lit?) In that comment thread and the ensuing chat, and here.
@Shog9 I don't see that as a problem though. Comments can get voted up. The good points rise up and get seen. Then you can zoom in and see the discussion that led to that, and what came after it.
gas-lit sounds classier
user4639281
Gas-lighted rhymed tho
@mason chat has stars. They function very similarly, except chat's stars have a temporal element to their sort as well, which is REALLY nice once a conversation gets long.
crucially, neither has downvotes, so you're only measuring part of the signal
04:32
I don't like them being temporal. Often I go back to a Meta discussion months later. If the stars expire... that's not useful.
Stars don't expire.
user4639281
@Shog9 except stars are more like pins than upvotes, I think there should be two separate functions.
Even if it doesn't have downvotes, you can see someone's rebuttal and how many stars that got.
room owners can remove stars but I don't think anyone is RO in such rooms
And...if you really wanted to, it wouldn't be too hard to add downvoting to comments.
04:32
@mason that also becomes a chore once there are more than a few comments.
Chat has replies
@mason or remove the 600 character limit
user4639281
Stars make very little sense, upvotes could be used to collapse the conversation like in the comments. #pipedream
...or add editing and a public revision history
we could call them... "sub-answers"
was there ever a proposition to make comments threaded?
yes
lemme dig it up
I'm curious what prevents us from implementing this threading.
user4639281
04:34
Or you could build a damn clarification request system with built in sub-discussions that could be addressed by edits and tracked for efficacy, also moderated but separately of the comment system. You could do that. #pipedream
15
Q: Can we have threaded comments on answer comments?

Stewart RobinsonThe conversation often continues in the Comments and important information is held in the comments. I'd like to have threaded comments there. It would make it easier for people who are editing answers to be able to see the real useful information in the comments separately from the conversations ...

I'm thinking of asking about a threaded discussion site engine for MSO to replace the current Q&A type MSO, I wonder what the opinions are about that
we effectively offer one level of threading, and you're looking at it. — Jeff Atwood Oct 12 '09 at 5:26
ye but that was in 09
If they were so packed with goodness, they should be rolled out into answers. Otherwise, they're noise. — random Nov 26 '09 at 11:33
04:36
for the main site that is all still true
balpha wrote a userscript to do threading at one point, but I expect it doesn't work anymore
Random later became a mod, if I recall correctly
They're not just noise though @GeorgeStocker. I don't know how many times I have to say it. But what's noise for you is gold for us. And making everything into an answer is just going to be chaos.
3
but maybe we should actually make the discussion site different?
their goals are different, we shouldn't be using the same type of Q&A format when it's a discussion site
or is that too radical of an idea :p
I would rather like having an actual forum for discussion, but for now this is what we got.
04:37
maybe we can put that up to a discussion?
Btw Shog it’s always bothered me that even though I’m a meta mod, once meta.so stuff was moved to meta.se I lost the ability to mod it. 😫
So, y'know... We make do.
@Shog9 What's your estimate on how long it might take to implement threaded comments for MSO?
longer than it would take to just migrate this stuff to an actual discussion platform
I don't suppose the SO company is going to even think of buying Discourse's license for meta...
04:38
comments are... very limited
there'd be more to build than there would already built
user4639281
My biggest problem is with clarification requests and how they are treated when whole threads get nuked or moved to chat. Clarification requests should absolutely always remain unless they are rude, or have been adequately addressed. That's my big sticking point.
@TinyGiant I mean... I find it confusing that you accuse Yvette's answer of being unclear but the other of being perfectly clear.
I feel like a threaded comment system is something a recent college software engineering graduate should be able to do. What's so hard about getting it on MSO?
user4639281
Partial answers being the secondary stocking point, also important, not as important.
@TinyGiant that's fair. I think it would help considerably to land upon a way of handling them separately (or, heck, even sorting them separately)
user4639281
04:40
@Catija I don't understand your clarification request.
If you use meta questions as a topic/issue and answers as the various arguments for or against it, it becomes very easy to see the arguments, and you don’t have the problem of people fighting each other in the comments. They post their position in their answer, and the votes decide
"Fighting each other" is a good thing - so long as they're not rude about it. That's how we shape our ideas. By attacking and defending them. Hardening them.
keyword there is ideas
you can attack an idea - or defend one - all on your own
you can write an answer that does nothing but refute an idea
you can write an answer that does nothing but defend an idea
user4639281
@GeorgeStocker but it doesn't need to be black and white like that. Partial answers in the comments do serve a purpose as I have stated twice above, to inspire others to write answers that they may never have thought of and the original commenter may have never been able to write.
you don't need it to be part of anything else; it can stand alone
04:43
That's really at the core of what I'm aiming for here - an effective way to do that in an asynchronous manner, without the possibility my point will be removed before others have had a chance to decide whether my point contains merit or not.
[pretend here you can see me doing jazzhands] Answers!
if I feel like my comment warrants its own reply on a meta post, I usually post it as an answer or its own post if it's too different for the question it's on, and I've learned through these comment deletions to not worry about deleted comments, and post questions/answers more often instead. This is what I've understood. (I might be wrong.)
@TinyGiant and that's fine - but even so, they don't need to last forever.
reality check pls
@user1306322 seems quite reasonable
04:45
@TinyGiant My first question on that answer is asking for clarification but in the comments you're able to infer meaning from the answer that isn't written there. At the same time, you're asking Yvette for clarification... but you seem to already know what you want... no? If you do, there's nothing wrong with putting your plan in its own answer.
user4639281
@Shog9 no they don't, but they should last until they achieve that effect. If an answer is posted that makes the comment no longer needed you now have a standard reason that you can use for deletion. I've said this point twice now.
@shog9 practically speaking they’ll last until someone misbehaves in that thread or until we stumble upon them. If there’s no smoke we generally don’t need to search for a fire.
@TinyGiant you're throwing bait in the water. It catches something, great. It doesn't, oh well. Try new bait.
(Or someone misbehaves in an adjacent thread. We like to clean things up when we are there.)
user4639281
@Shog9 but it isn't causing any harm, unless you somehow have a multitude of partial answers. I somehow think that is rare.
04:47
@mason I suppose the proposed line of thinking is to post answers instead of comments, which will not be deleted, and you will not have the same experience with them as with comments under someone else's post.
@GeorgeStocker Yes. This is the thing that I think gets overlooked. Even with 26 mods, you're not reading every question and reviewing every comment chain. For the most part, you're not on a seek and destroy mission... you're nuking stuff when people point out that there's a problem.
@user1306322 winner winner chicken dinner
@TinyGiant usually, yes. Sometimes, it happens. Lines get tangled. Bait gets lost. Metaphors get mixed.
this is my first time playing and the first win. yay!
If we followed that advice, we'd end up with hundreds of answers, and you'd have even more of a mess than you think the comments already are.
I don't think that's sustainable.
04:48
@mason you'd be surprised
You're making assumptions... how about testing it out before judging it?
@mason we can try it for a while, maybe people will be too reluctant to post their own posts
@Catija hell, I think that’s part where the meta comment archive may backfire on its creators: it makes it easy to see problems we would never have seen on meta
So many folks think their ideas are unique until they read the existing answers...
@GeorgeStocker Yep. IPS deletes way more comments than they would otherwise.
user4639281
04:50
@Catija you're right, I was unduly not-understandong of your clarification requests significance. I didn't think it was significant because I think joke comments should be treated as any other comment on meta, I didn't express that correctly.
I think you try that, the community wouldn't react well. I'd personally be onboard with a timeboxed trial. I think the end result will be 1) people get very frustrated about being told to make their comments into answers (like they are now) and 2) people who are attempting to follow along will just participate less. And we'll lose useful discussion.
user4639281
@Shog9 real wishy-washy hand-wavy there.
@mason This I can answer (not from SO perspective but from dev one): legacy code, dude...legacy code. My first dev job was turning an old Cobol system (eventually turning it into C++ & Java) and it was so hard to do anything due to all the technical debt - anything, even stupidly simple things were tied up in spaghetti code (the true type with Goto)
> 1) people get very frustrated about being told to make their comments into answers (like they are now)

why are they frustrated? this is how the site is supposed to work, isn't it?
If a discussion occurs in the comments and we can’t find it later, did it make a sound?
04:51
Hard rules rarely survive contact with actual people
that's why we have moderators
@user1306322 No, that's not Meta Stack Overflow is supposed to work. That's how main SO works. Meta kinda works that way, but not merely to the same extent. Because Meta is a place for discussion too, not just an encyclopedia of Q/A
we're having it in this chat
@JGreenwell In regards to your tech debt comment, are you saying that's justification for not doing threaded comments?
what I'm thinking is we gotta find the right balance between comments and chat to fix the problem
user4639281
We also have a policy discussion site to discuss and establish policies that are acceptable for the community at large. We have that to protect moderators from the burden of having to make overly subjective decisions without any clear guidelines to follow, and suffer the inevitable response from the community when they make a mess of things.
04:54
not justification just perspective
@user1306322 I've gone in circles here. I don't think this chat has been an effective use of my time. I came here out of respect for the people wanting to have a conversation with me, but the last several hours would have been better spent elsewhere.
10 to 20 year old code is (from my experience - yeah, ask data engineers how often they still play with Win XP) just really difficult to improve or change
@mason with those thoughts gathered, you should make your own meta post, imo
@JGreenwell Well believe me, I understand technical debt. However, I don't think we should let technical debt paralyze us into inaction.
@TinyGiant ...and said policy actually has to be implemented.
04:56
@user1306322 I do plan on making some Meta posts in the coming days, but it takes a good deal of thought to put into that, and I don't really have the time for that at the moment.
no worries, this whole thing isn't going anywhere, take your time
@mason that's fine though. I have faith that what results will be worth the wait.
Agreed, just I understand where the statement (paraphrasing) it be easier to just re-make it as a forum over adding threading is valid (if it is valid then do it but then I have not idea on resources)
just increase comment length limit, boom forum
user4639281
@Shog9 yeah, otherwise it's all just a great big waste of time and everyone should just go home. Of course it has to be implemented. If we have no idea whether any comment we ever write is going to last more than 10 seconds, and mods have no clear idea of what they should be deleting, everyone involved is going to suffer, and the entire relationship will inevitably break down.
04:58
or - we have what we have if and I thought there was a chance of being heard I'd add an answer on how that system might, maybe, could work. I don't, and I'm thinking I have better things to do than shout into a void. Esp after trying (in question and answer and comment forms and still nothing)
user4639281
There has to be some common agreed upon policy around this or it all means nothing. It doesn't have to be rock solid or iron clad, and it can be adjusted over time, but for everyone's sake, their must be a clear policy
user4639281
I've said all of these things in this chat multiple times now.
@JGreenwell I don't think we're shouting into a void on Meta. They're not always acknowledging they're listening. But they are. Of course, I think it's important they don't just perceive it as negativity and take the time to actually understand why the community gets frustrated.
my summary so far: Promote posting answers instead of comments. People don't argue senselessly in posts as they do in comments, so the problem of useless posts will not happen.
@TinyGiant I agree, and that policy should be agreed upon before the enforcement happens.
05:01
Keep in mind, we're discussing changes to a live system.
@user1306322 Please stop saying people argue senselessly. That demeans their input. You may not think it's valuable, but it obviously is to the people involved, and it often is to others that are reading it even if they choose not to participate directly.
@mason if you can give me an example of a comment thread which could get cleaned up or nuked entirely and a similar post, it could help us figure out some things
user4639281
@Shog9 I don't understand the significance of the statement.
@mason I don't mean the types of comments you mean, but I can't give you an example of my own right now
@TinyGiant Have you ever tried to give a toddler a haircut?
05:02
@Shog9 Sure, I get that. 100% uptime and all that. There has to be some sort of interim policy until the new policy is adopted. But I don't think that the status quo we had a few weeks ago was that bad. We can stick with that until we find a common policy going forward.
user4639281
@Catija I have three kids, I done gived them all their haircuts.
Well, mine, at least... doesn't sit still.
user4639281
Again not understanding the significance of the statement. Maybe I'm just dense.
@user1306322 I don't understand what you're asking me for. The comments that I want deleted are very much inline with what Tiny Giant has said. Rude comments should be removed ASAP.
@mason The status quo was too few people moderating according to their own lights.
05:04
@TinyGiant people are not gonna like abrupt changes, in short
Now, there are slightly more people doing the same.
user4639281
I really am dense I guess. Still not getting the relevance
@Shog9 But they're not doing the same. George and Robert Harvey have been on a comment removal spree of unrude comments!
2
Increasing the level of enforcement of existing policies is effectively a change in policy.
What folks thought was a policy was in fact just stuff getting dropped on the floor.
The old policy you're referring to didn't exist.
user4639281
Consistency is key, ya see?
05:06
And people liked it like that!
Maybe. But, that's still not actually a policy.
The people who stopped coming to meta or the staff that stopped coming to meta because of it? Those people liked it?
@Shog9 It's a status quo - should be easy to maintain.
so post an internal memo to ease up on moderating the top 20 hot MSO posts or be more precise with deletions? Would we be happy with that at least for now?
user4639281
If the policy is "all comments will always be deleted", write that as the policy. If the policy is "we will delete comments with wanton disregard" write that as the policy. Don't be wishy-washy and hand-wavy about it.
05:07
It's like you thought the speed limit was 90mph, but in fact there were just never any cops on duty during your drive home. Other drivers were not so lucky.
user4639281
Say what you mean and mean what you say, damn it!
@GeorgeStocker I don't care about users that don't participate in Meta. They're free to do as they wish. If they want to take part in shaping the site, then Meta is open to them. As for the staff, I'll say it again: a lot of the pain was self inflicted.
@TinyGiant I don't think it's realistic to expect from such a big site and with different importance of posts and comments
that said, I think the hottest meta posts right now could use more precision in moderation
user4639281
Whatever the position is, it would be a hell of a lot easier to stomach if we could suss out what it actually was
(as I've said 5 times here already)
@TinyGiant you can get bits and pieces of it from chats like this
user4639281
05:09
@user1306322 chats like this are meaningless.
the real policy is different between mods and staff users, it's not simple
user4639281
All of this is a big ol' /dev/null unless some amount of change is actually effected on the main site.
@TinyGiant idk about you, but I've confirmed and learned a few things today, this is good for me personally
2
user4639281
@user1306322 what about the rest of meta readers who will never read any of this?
they were never here in the first place
user4639281
05:11
They were reading on meta though.
And showing their support for various positions in Meta.
but just fyi: sometimes I dig up such old chats like this and read them for an hour and learn things and understand the site, community, the world better in ways that I find useful for me and the world at large :p
user4639281
You can't expect that of the average meta reader.
I don't, that was never the idea
average users don't even go into chats
we're the 0.015%
user4639281
I've said the same things multiple times in here that the actual people here reading didn't catch. You expect meta readers to follow this?
05:12
The average meta user does read comments, many of them even vote.
Seemingly never able to vote down on a comment though... maybe giving a false sense of support?
user4639281
So implement downvoting on comments.
@GeorgeStocker I've addressed this already. You keep ignoring it. If someone posts a rebuttal, those often get upvoted as well.
Or, you know, write answers.
user4639281
@GeorgeStocker that's not constructive.
05:14
@GeorgeStocker Please stop. You're taking us in circles.
This is the system we have for chatting (long discussions, arguments), it's invisible to most users. It's for the 0.015%, the real dedicated meta goers who are not afraid of a bit of reading. Comments are what is visible to passerbys and they are much more strictly moderated. I don't really see too big of a problem with this distinction.
user4639281
You've been purposefully trying to detail every conversation you've been a part of for the past few days. I don't think anyone actually believes that you have any intention of constructive communication at this point. No one will ever change your mind.
one issue lately I've seen is that it's a lot more noticeable when hot topic posts get crudely moderated
I suppose we're gonna have to live with crude comment moderation forever because there isn't enough mod time in the world to be precise about it
I get that it's bad but I haven't heard any good propositions except mine, in the form of a question on MSO
@user1306322 Yes, there is. Because like I've been pointing out, the mods are doing far more removal than the community actually wants. Do less of it, and they'll have more time to be precise.
I don't think that is an option
05:19
Sure it is - that's how things were up until a few days ago.
And we liked it.
And we don't want to change.
And I'm repeating myself.
you have to post it as a question on MSO
It already was a question on MSO.
https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387883
post your counter-proposition with arguments against this recent change, with examples
not just a 1-liner coz it'd get closed as a dupe I guess
@mason I’m on mobile so I haven’t looked, but did you end up posting your viewpoint in an answer there?
@user1306322 Do you not see the votes there? That has far more weight than any counter position I can come up with.
05:22
@mason it's merely my suggestion, I don't know any other way of getting things to move around here
@GeorgeStocker No, I didn't feel it was necessary there. The votes are already there saying the idea isn't welcome.
@mason 👍
user4639281
@user1306322 I'm going to start posting literally everything as a question on mso. Every comment I think of, everything, will be in the form of a new meta question. You can't see my evil grin right now, but you can imagine it. It is very large, and toothy.
but I'm telling you that in my opinion your answer/post, with info, might have more weight than just another downvote on that post
@TinyGiant well, don't be all black-and-white like that, I'm sure you get the idea
@user1306322 I didn't really have more more to express than "No, this is dumb, don't do it". Which I felt the votes conveyed, along with the mass of angry comments.
05:24
and at the end of the day, if the site gives you a big-ass evil grin, think about whether you should keep participating in it
many users step away for a while and return, some don't, you know it's life
all result of the site's policies in part, but what can we do if it's too much for us at some point
@GeorgeStocker Will you acknowledge that the community was very upset about the proposed changes to moderation?
user4639281
I think you're entirely missing the point and my arguments are previously stated elsewhere. I don't feel like repeating myself anymore. Chat sucks for this. So bad. So bad
user4639281
@mason he doesn't care.
also, about gathering statistics about who was upset and who wasn't, maybe it's worth looking into who voted how and what their participation on the site is -- are they a passerby "hell yea, drama!" voter or are they one of the core meta users who actually do stuff and their vote weighs more
@TinyGiant I'd like him to go on the record either way.
@user1306322 We can't see who voted for what.
05:28
@mason if by community you mean “the active meta community” then I’d say yes
user4639281
Your his sheeple, and it's his job to herd you. He doesn't have to be nice like the rest of us, or respond coherently. He just has to be there to keep us in line because we're horrible evil people.
@TinyGiant That's unfair. At least keep those thoughts in your head if you have them.
I mean the staff can, they're the ones alleging "vocal minority" stuff, and I'd like to see it supported by some data showing who of the voters is just vocal passerbies and who is a real dedicated user
@user1306322 we can too, but unfortunately we can’t share that data
We see the numbers.
user4639281
@mason he said so earlier, not in so many words.
05:30
@GeorgeStocker I'd say that the active meta community is the part that matters. They're the users mentally invested enough in the site to take part in the discussion that helps shape it.
@GeorgeStocker maybe consider sharing them in this exceptional time? at least blurred numbers?
could help with trust issues
Until they’re willing to pay for all the users that get driven away I’m not sure it does much good to focus solely on them.
ok fair
user4639281
You cannot effectively moderate a community that you actively despise. There is too much bias, too little regard for those you're moderating. The only thing that can come from that is the death of a community.
3
But I wrote an answer on that so I don’t have to repeat myself here
05:32
@user1306322 I just looked. You haven't posted a question or answer since about a year ago. Why do you care? Why are you getting involved here?
why do you think?
I still have experience, it wasn't forgotten, and I want the current problems to be solved, so I'm participating in discussions trying to find a way
@GeorgeStocker I think the position of many of those on Meta is that we don't care about growth or user counts. You can say that'd be the death of Stack Overflow, given enough time. But the sooner it gets out of the hands of people who just want to drive growth and into the hands of the type of people that run Wikipedia, the better.
this is the best site of its kind, this is my best chance to secure a better place for my future self, and others
@user1306322 Honestly if you're not participating in questions and answers on at least semi regular basis, I have no idea why you're here trying to shape things.
@mason you don’t see that as hostile behavior?
05:35
@GeorgeStocker No, I don't. What's hostile about it?
I'm trying to think of a metaphor like having to participate in the kitchen in order to have a say in what's on the menu... it's hard :D
If you haven’t skinned the goose you can’t comment on the cooking or some such
don't have to be a chef to tell the cooking's bad? something like that idk
user4639281
@user1306322 I think his point is that if you're never going to consume any of the meals, why are you trying to change the recipes?
Although I’d be evicerated if I said the same thing to non moderators
05:37
But you do have to eat the food from the chef to comment on whether the cooking was good or not.
I've been consuming all the meals, that's how I've got a job as a developer lol
user4639281
@user1306322 by reading meta, and participating in meta?
I've done this all before, I know how the site works, and I might participate on the main site again, and by then I want there to still be a site to participate on
as of now I only have problems to which I can find answers without having to log in
except all this meta stuff
user4639281
I'm sorry, I'm not arguing the point is correct necessarily, I'm just saying that the argument is that you're trying to shape something (meta comment moderation) that you haven't shown an interest in being a part of.
I've shown, in the past
oh, not meta comment moderation specifically, i'm never running for a mod position
user4639281
05:40
No, more along the lines of commenting on meta
but I do recognize importance of comments on meta and how they get removed sometimes
With the level of knowledge you’ve shown you’re definitely an old timer, user1306322
Hakase?
if my account age isn't the first indicator of that idk what is (maybe my user id? lol)
@GeorgeStocker yes it's me
My mobile is glitching
It’s been a really long time
Back when I was “Gortok”
I like to keep my SO account impersonal because it sometimes gets personal on the outer webz :I
anyway, I suppose this chat room has been derailed into figuring out who I am
05:43
😁
Alright, I'm going to head bed now. I still don't have a good feeling about this chat. I feel like it was pretty pointless. But I will leave by saying that I do intend to post some of my thoughts into coherent Meta posts soon. Soon as I find some time. I'm about halfway through working 12 days straight in a row.
@Shog9 recently you said something along the lines of being unsure of how much useful the things you do are, and I'm just one more vote in favor of your good deeds. You've shown me how one can be strong and persevere in such a harsh community, and I'm here to give you a bit of that strength back. Thank you for what you are doing, you are an iron man.
Good night, all.
@mason I'll be waiting for that meta post, and if anything, think that the goal of this chat room was to clarify what you were gonna post, and encourage that you do in the end make that post. That is after all the greatest tool we have to change the site's policies.
night
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