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20:00
@CodyGray could I ask you to review and potentially remove the bottom clutter from my nomination post? I'm not scared of it hurting my votes (let's be honest here lol), but it's wildly off topic, and borderline accusatory with no sourcing
@SterlingArcher Will take a look. We're trying to stay on top of the nomination comments, but things always come up.
@CodyGray Well, it could be an interesting take on what it means to be a moderator beyond clicking decline in the flag queue. But we have time to work on the exact wording of that question.
@CodyGray no rush, I dropped a source link showing I wasn't even present during his accusation, so it doesn't effect me.
At your leisure sir
@SterlingArcher I specifically have left the gravatar comments from the past few days, though, because (A) they're on-topic, and (B) I kinda agree with 'em...
Not a deal-killer, but definitely a factor
@CodyGray that's absolutely on topic, and a very viable reason
I mean the implication that I'm personally the reason a chatroom is toxic
20:05
Hmm. I don't think asking about behavior in a room where you're the room owner is totally off-topic, either.
So...I cleaned up the tail end of that discussion, but I'm leaning towards leaving the initial bits.
It's not, just the specific nature of the comments were addressed to situations I was never present for
Well, that's the problem with pointing to specific incidents
It seems to me like he's trying to make a broader point about the culture of the room
I can see that, but the execution was lacking
On the other hand, it's a completely valid response to say that he should have raised a flag if he was uncomfortable
I believe it could have been a good question if it was worded very differently
20:07
@TravisJ Yes but also the fact that it feels that even SE sees as them versus us, a lot of complains lately have been of this type and personally from neither side this is good for anyone. We would need more coercion.
@PetterFriberg Sees who as "them versus us"? Employees vs. community?
I'm no saint, my chat history is very clear of that, but an accusal of supporting horrible ideals is just harmful and not constructive I believe
Or mods?
@TravisJ It's certainly true we can't keep up with all the meta conversations. But I'm not sure per-site metas are entirely to blame. In fact, I think per-site metas help in a sense because they allow individual communities to solve their own problems independently. So we don't need to be on top of every discussion.
@PetterFriberg I don't think they see it as a them versus us, that isn't a fair description. There are certain users who do seem to try to make that distinction though, and who unfairly depict SE actions as intentionally deceptive.
20:09
@CodyGray That's my feeling (purely a feeling) but yeah meta is a problem not a solution for SE
Interesting. I don't really get that feeling. I have plenty of criticisms that I could direct at Stack Exchange the company, but we have pretty darn good CMs.
They're chronically overextended, of course, but that's not their fault.
@JonEricson I think that there is a great advantage to the individual community feeling in the per-site metas. In the regards of micro management for their individual needs and not feeling drowned out it makes a lot of sense. With regards to actually dealing with real problems, they fall short...
... That many of them have similar problems represents a real issue; and that it eventually reaches the level necessary to be addressed at MSE or on the blog just shows that some problems are impossible to solve on a per site meta scale.
@CodyGray thank you for the cleanup, and I respect the comments you left :)
Sorry to bug, it really wasn't a big deal
@SterlingArcher No, it's fine. The lack of a flag option on the nomination comments is a serious bug.
@CodyGray I didn't see any flagging issues last year. What's with this year commenters?
20:12
I mentioned that earlier, I was trying to find a way to get a moderators attention without making it "a thing"
@Jean-FrançoisFabre I'm a JS Room Owner, people who break the rules take it personally :P
@Jean-FrançoisFabre There are always flagging issues, and issues with comments on nominations :P
@TravisJ I agree. We've need a real bug database and a real roadmap, for instance.
6
@SterlingArcher This chat is fine, you did good to mention it.
No other place to go anyway...
Guess they can't do the same thing to the SOCVR RO's since there are multiple running at the same time
20:14
I always feel bad asking a mod to do extra work xD
@Jean-FrançoisFabre What Travis J said. There are always issues. I don't think this year is any worse or better, really.
@Jean-FrançoisFabre You can always flag on of your posts with a custom mod message and some links to where the problem you couldn't flag were. Or, you could also use the contact us form (albeit a little slower).
I guess I lack experience in election comments. Thanks for replyinh
@SterlingArcher It is what we're here for. The only downside is you're having to ping one specific mod, instead of letting whoever has a second handle it. That's why flags are good.
Absolutely agreed there
Is there a meta topic on it?
20:15
bad comments under a nomination make the nomination look bad by "no smoke without fire first" effect
Naw, don't use contact us. That's way too slow, and doesn't go to the mods anyway. Just the CMs.
Don't summon Tim :O
@CodyGray lately with all meta post related it seems like we can't get any good out of it, it becomes only a place to complain and to defend.. But yeah maybe only me looking for more constructive, collaborative way to solve issues
@JonEricson You need to use Meta more. Talked to Shog about that a while back, and about the internal apprehension towards it, but sharing more with the most invested members of your community is really important, and I'm glad you are taking steps towards doing it. I think that's more important than a formal bug database. We don't need to see the nitty gritty details; we just need to feel included and heard.
@JonEricson - I personally miss hearing the outlook that you, Josh, Jay, and Tim used to give on at least a weekly basis on mSO. It was such a driving force for the community. My suggestion for merging the metas again (or to call out that the per site metas are problematic) are just a manifestation of that and my attempt to try to find a solution for it.
20:19
Unrelated: Just realized that this election didn't have any impact on the mod queue. Usually mod queues increase during elections meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/352616/… ...
@JonEricson Just knowing that things are happening under the hood is useful. Feedback (anecdotally) has gotten more sparse of late
@CodyGray Yes. We're talking about it internally and I think it's a big problem. It's also an amazing opportunity to build comradery between users of the sites and the people working them. Among the problems is that when employees do participate, they aren't treated very well all the time:
-4
A: Data science time! December 2018 and answer voting

Julia SilgeThanks to all for your comments and discussion. One great point brought up in a couple of ways was how much these proportions vary over longer periods of time, and how surprising a shift like this is. You can see here that there was a long-term trend toward higher values of this proportion of ...

@BhargavRao Jinx!
I encouraged Julia to start that series and it's been a bit discouraging for her. (s/a bit/quite/, I'm afraid.)
So what can we do to encourage it @JonEricson?
20:23
@JonEricson Are you taking the downvotes as evidence of not being treated well?
@CodyGray: The comments aren't that great tbh - that's kind of what I noticed first
@CodyGray Not as such. The comments were fairly dismissive.
Jinx - buy me a Coke
I have to admit, I have some concerns about this type of data analysis, too. I think it overlooks far too many confounding variables, and tries to draw far too sweeping of conclusions from the limited amount of data that's available.
So...I'm not sure that people expressing those concerns is bad, as long as they do it in a respectful way.
I get how it would be kinda discouraging for people to be less than enthusiastic about your work.
@Makoto I mean, the tone on meta is extra combative lately and I don't want to stifle legit criticisms. So I'd like to lose the first without losing the second. (Which is no answer at all, I know.)
20:27
@JonEricson There does seem to be an elevated amount of negativity on meta lately, I agree with that.
Just throw more protons at them
@JonEricson I see your point. It may be tough to filter the noise from signal on Meta when it comes to feedback. Having people disagree with a perspective or data is perfectly healthy, but it's important that such disagreements don't boil over into attacks or mistrust.
Yeah. meta is more the back alley nowadays where we smash the kids with glasses hehehehe ;)
@CodyGray I think a lot of employees feel they are very good at their jobs and meta just wants to kubitz. It comes off as assuming employees are bad at their work.
I don't know that I see an elevation of negativity lately. I do think the negativity has increased over time, but that's largely attributable to fatigue of veteran users with the low-quality content on the site and their feeling powerless to do anything about it. I can relate.
20:28
@SterlingArcher We need more cations.
I just don't know offhand what would turn people around and make them happy about those numbers.
@rene I've never been beaten up with a pair of glasses before
How does that even work?
I also think that meta is becoming far too focused on minuscule tagging details. Sending out raiding parties aimed at tags is perhaps not as productive as other activities would be.
3
The dev team is actually doing a lot of stuff to improve the moderator tools. Like really a lot. The general users don't have any idea about those stuff as it is supposed to be mod only.... which is kinda sad..
@CodyGray - I think that the negativity hit a boiling point with the mobile app
20:29
@TravisJ YES!
10
A: Stack Overflow now has its own app on iOS and Android

MakotoFrom observing both this new app and the older Stack Exchange app - which I've been using for years now - I get the impression that this hits the 80% use case. Effectively, they help out with the primitive functionality of the site: Look at questions Search questions Get notifications (includi...

@SterlingArcher make sure you don't run into @bart and @cody at the same time
@CodyGray Unfortunately, that frustration tends to reinforce the narrative that meta users are overly-critical.
@TravisJ amen
@JonEricson Maybe it's high time we acknowledge and accept that we are critical. I really have to put together those thoughts on what it is later on...
20:31
LOL
To be fair, Meta is a place to be critical. Too many people equate criticism with bad, but I just can't follow the logic. Criticism makes things better. We all share the same goal (I hope): to make this the greatest Q&A site out there.
@TravisJ Well, it's one of the few areas where users can actually get results themselves... We want to do something
@TravisJ yes, one of the goals of the Trogdor room was to send a signal that bad tag request should be closed, declined instead of handled.
@CodyGray YES, but that's also seem to be the only constructive thing we manage to do on meta... The rest is You declined my flag.. Who delete this.
@CodyGray So long as that criticism doesn't cause us to forget the main reason why we're bothering in the first place.
20:32
@Makoto You think it has? I don't see that. The most critical of us have our eyes squarely on the ball.
@CodyGray there is a difference on having critique on what we're doing and who is doing it. Lately somehow it gets personal, specially towards staff. Weird.
@TravisJ I didn't get you, (sorry it's getting late here), what exactly is the issue with fixing tags?
@PetterFriberg there's also very important & widely useful issues: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/381017/…
There's been plenty of criticism of moderators on Meta, too. It's not just staff.
@CodyGray I mean, every so-often on Meta I see a post in which someone's asking, "Why is this bad?" in which I can't objectively see a major gripe with it. Someone manages to come up with a reason, which I don't disagree with, but I can't agree with either.
20:33
@CodyGray I think the trouble is meta is sometimes disproportionately critical. Or maybe we (the people who are familiar with how the sites work under the hood) don't do enough to explain why small-seeming things are so important to the functioning of the sites.
"We want to do something": I know that if users see content problems, they will use whatever tools or options available in order to address it. However, organizing a large group to coordinate efforts against tags greatly bends the intention of individual user moderation as it amplifies the effect greatly.
@TravisJ This reads like a comment on the existence of the SOCVR
@JonEricson I only have an outsider's view here, but sometimes it seems as though the staff dismisses things as irrelevant/unimportant because they would be so difficult to implement (for a variety of reasons, maybe technical debt, staff shortages, limited funds, etc.). Which makes sense, but the community who uses the site every day doesn't really care about that, and arguably shouldn't be expected to.
Ah, k. I see where this is coming from.
Nvm
Oh snap you got k'd
20:36
@CodyGray yes, we should all learn to ask did this post deserve this faith? instead of which user deleted my post and why haven't they been banned yet?
@Makoto It really isn't. That wasn't really the intent of the room (I was there when it was started btw), and rene does a lot of work to make sure that the direction is aimed at individual moderation.
@TravisJ The bigger problem is, ironically, we don't have enough community participation in the tag discussions. You end up with the same group of users over and over who are doing all the retagging and decision-making. That's no slight against them. They're heavily invested and doing it for the good of the site. But they're also not experts on every tag, and don't have the background knowledge to necessarily make the best decisions.
Fair enough - I'm an outsider to that so I wouldn't really know @TravisJ. Pardon my ignorance.
@Makoto it is, we're famous ...
That said, one user cannot control what many other users do, especially when they feel what they are doing is making improvements to the site.
20:37
I feel that this is more about the existence of me, rather than SOCVR, as it is me who is pushing the tagging stuff
How many synonym requests have "individuals" completed, @TravisJ?
How many disambiguation efforts have individuals even started?
@BhargavRao - As stated a few times here ( I was trying to get to your comment ), the issue isn't with fixing tags, it is with organizing large groups in tandem. This wasn't really the design of the way user moderation was supposed to work.
Heck, there was 100 posts to review in the [docusign] tag.
@CodyGray Definately. I push toward more honesty, but sometimes it's easier to downplay problems. (I'd also not be surprised if people don't realize they are dismissing problems because we can't solve them right now. Not everyone can see outside the boundaries of their individual and immediate work.)
100 Just 100
And no one did it
@BhargavRao Almost none, because the tooling is horribly broken. It has been since forever. One of my top scoring MSE questions is a criticism of that. But there have been tons of individuals who have completed tag burninations, and that creates a lot of disruption and annoyance.
20:38
Not even the experts who posted the question
@BhargavRao I have read all of the requests, and seen all of the cleanup efforts through meta, so I am fairly aware of the activity in general.
@TravisJ There is no large group who is doing this. Just a handful of users
Some 5 or 6 of them.
I want to get more people involved, we need more experts to see these
@BhargavRao This isn't directed at you. It is that group mentality plays out in the way the tags end up getting handled by users that you are perhaps not even aware of.
@BhargavRao As of now people feel meta is useful for this reason because you are!, I can't see how this could be negative... atleast something change and not everything stays at 6-8
@PetterFriberg That's true, but the other side of it is the answerers, the experts on that tag, who are down in the trenches slogging it out. Suddenly, the landscape changes, and they don't know why or maybe disagree with it.
It can be very disruptive. And that's putting aside the issue of mass retags bumping a bunch of old uninteresting questions to the homepage.
This isn't a criticism of Bhargav, BTW.
20:41
I've written up a meta to get more people involved, I'm waiting for the election season to end..
He's doing great work.
A large amount of time spent by highly active meta users is dedicated to removing content. This to me is problematic because there is now a bunch of outlook about how to identify every angle of what can make a post poor. There is no balance between what makes posts good, or about creating content.
I agree with his methods. He does lots of research and checks things out thoroughly. He does everything he can do as a moderator. But we desperately need more involvement from the people who actually use these tags day to day to find questions to answer.
Also, just for the record, I check each and every post that is closed and not roombad on tags that are less than 1000 questions.
... and Shog checks them for those that are above 1000.
Which is why both [music] and [order] are still stuck..
@CodyGray I agree but this is what we can do now to try and improve for them. How to we get them involved?
20:43
@BhargavRao - If anything I see you more as a gatekeeper from this activity. It has been fully out of control before. So, I definitely don't think you should take this as a reflection of me criticizing you.
@JonEricson I think there is not enough user advocating going on - people are too often rude in the name of focusing on content such that they forget that we are all people. It's easy to dismiss someone's experience when you're not the one on the receiving end, after all
2
@PetterFriberg I don't know. If we could solve that problem, that'd be great. But in the meantime, what is the urgency here? I guess that's the big question. Why is it more important to spend time removing tags, than to spend that time improving the site in other ways?
The Trogdor room is meant to bring back sanity in the flood of tag requests on Meta. Declining those requests was the most important goal and next was getting the ones that seemed reasonable back in the light to see if they still had merit and if they did, get it moving. Mods where instrumental in that and as with SOCVR, the process is open and transparent.
though whether that's the job of CMs, the mods, or the community to manage... that's another question
@TylerH Yeah, that is a good point
20:45
@TylerH Yes. ;-)
@TylerH What does user advocacy look like? Meta is naturally going to be spotlighting problematic content. There are plenty of other venues to spotlight great content.
@CodyGray The urgency is because requests that were posted when they once had 100 questions are not taken care at all... the tags are now past 1k questions, and are accelerating at a high pace, when we can never get them into shape.
@CodyGray we really ought to make tag-only edits stop bumping questions once and for all
Tags is one of the ways in which we are trying to help. I am sorry that it might cause a mess on main meta page, but it's something which had to be done long back, but wasn't
@TylerH Yes, but...mod-only. Or trusted user-only.
20:47
30k privilege!
@CodyGray I'm not so much for burnation, in fact I tend to dv most since not worth the time but synonyms etc could really improve some tags and yeah as a user on meta currently this is the only constructive suggestion I feel is useful, suggesting rep for closing dupe is hardly worth the time
@BhargavRao - I see, you think that I said this because you bumped meta posts? I think that marking those as status- is important. This is not because of that, it is just in response to the amount of those requests that get posted by other users at a constant pace.
@TravisJ The flurry of constant activity encourages people to post new requests.
@TravisJ nah, it's not that. I get your point as well.
@CodyGray Eh, I lean way closer to "everyone" than "mod only"... I'm thinking like a 2k user privilege at least, if not lower. At least, for tag view pages. Let it still bump questions to /questions, etc.
20:48
This was about the bumping topic, which came in between.
@TylerH There are a lot of bad retags... I don't want to miss having eyes on those.
@TravisJ I agree the amount of tag burnination posts is "too damn high" right now. I think a large part of that is because people see some activity being done by the folks at Trogdor and think "oh cool, tag burninations"
What we actually need is, more of the top users taking part.
One with with requests also, is that some users who don't full understand the goals here will strike out immediately and not follow the official process.
@TravisJ The reason it's touchy is that we have some users (also active on Meta) who are of the "never burn anything" mindset. I'm not saying that's your position, but several things you've said could be interpreted that way
20:49
The other day, a top user posted this meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/380980/…. And it was very clear that it was a pressing issue. These kinda requests are what we need.
@BhargavRao top users in a tag you mean?
I don't like burninations because they often require bumping a bunch of old no longer needed posts to the front page.
then make sure burninations are not needed
There are a LOT of top users of certain tags in the room, right now. I do request that all of you join in the efforts to clean up the tags.
6
20:51
burninate burninations
@Machavity I am of the mindset that mass editing causes more problems than it solves. If there is going to be a burnination, then you better convince a critical audience of that. Often, I will try to portrait the critical audience point of view in order to show that there is a need to clear that hurdle.
@CodyGray I don't think you will; if there are that many then tag edits themselves need to be their own privilege, perhaps
We could do with some stats on this, where's Shog when you need him
@BhargavRao Yes
Is focusing only on tags really the best idea though?
20:51
One step at a time ...
Let's think while me move along
@KevinB I don't like burninations because they're a massive time sink without any reward (beyond curation). But having seen some bad tags first hand (and realizing new people seldom read excerpts) it's very necessary too
... man landed on the moon after thousands of years of existence... :)
I mean, tags are such a small aspect of a post. They don't hit google, they barely effect SO search. Extra tags on questions with <100 views are not exactly placing the exchange in mortal danger here.
well I try to cv, hit NAA, plagarism, vandalism, spam and bad comments also :)
20:53
@TravisJ Tags do hit Google, but I agree. I think there's a bunch of uncertainty around what they are. Clearing that up would probably make the necessary actions far clearer.
@PetterFriberg I try to hit the mod queue also, sometimes :p
It's just that meta currently to improve site is useful for tag issues.
@CodyGray Heh, there's no easy solution to hard questions, I'm afraid... User advocacy can start with CMs (perhaps a CM specializing in user advocacy?) reviewing mod interactions for times they could've been more... erm... less 'cold'. E.g. "consider the rehabilitation part of fixing behavioral problems" (I'm not saying there are currently problems with how mod interactions are worded...). Then they start encouraging mods to reach out to more users where they notice users might be getting upset
In short, while it's important to be dispassionate about each situation, we should still try to be warm when dealing with each person
I just wish there was some way to do it without bumping the posts, or maybe having the effort coincide with an effort to take care of the questions with the tag that should be closed/deleted in the same swing.
@BhargavRao a couple of flags before coffee
20:56
Imo the problem with burnination is that tag creation is broken. Allowing any user with 1.5K+ rep to create any tag they wish doesn't fit the scale and maturity of SO
@TylerH FWIW, this is at the bottom of every mod message:
@ErikA Tag creation can be checked ... if everyone uses the 10k tools properly ...
@TravisJ Tags can be a real PITA. I monitor for people who mean ; it's way better than it used to be but there are still 10+ posts a week that need fixing. Now, part of that problem is that we have a tag in the first place
Imo the problem is that people upvotez random stuff... without having a clue about the work
20:56
@KevinB Another issue with that is, if there is a group of users who spend all their available time cleaning up tags, and the group overlaps timezones, and there are more posts to be cleared than they have time to do... then every day there is a constant stream of these posts being bumped onto the active page. Amplifying this is the fact that the active page is what is shown to new users who nav to stackoverflow.com
... 10k tools are broken, is the next problem.
Chat flags are horrendously broken too
@ErikA That is a really good point too
to me chat flags feel like chat stars, they're "fun" for out of context messages
Chat flags are such a low priority though :P Sorry
20:58
@SterlingArcher why?
@Undo Sure, but that's not really directly relevant nor does it scale well. And even if you do reach out to a CM, there's no guarantee of 'resolving a problem' from when mods have proceeded terribly (I'm speaking from experience, albeit another site)
I've barked up that tree before, and they aren't going to get any attention before a slew of other issues
@PetterFriberg the idea behind presenting a judgement call on a message whilst providing no context is irresponsible
Chat flags are like: this message is wrong, let's rub it in everyone's faces without context!
i don't mind the chat flag system.. it's the lack of being able to delete stuff in-line, and not being able to see deleted messages in the transcript, etc
a lot of context gets lost if you just move stuff out
20:59
@TravisJ Chat is likely to remain broken, unfortunately; Joel said on a podcast once that chat was stupid (verbatim). I don't see many (read: any) resources getting thrown that way
@KevinB I can't remember if Shog's tool bumps or not. For larger tags, we can't do it better than a DB guy
@Machavity Shog's tool does not bump
SE has been quite vocal on "we don't care about chat tools"
@TylerH Good to know
@SterlingArcher meeh I kind of like it's a 10k tool, a responsible user will check context
21:00
@TylerH I have talked to balpha (the main author of the chat feature) about it before. That guy is swamped. There are so many things he deals with, things you want him to finish too... so I don't think we will see chat change for a very long time.
Honestly, I don't mind chat being a little broken, it's not used by that many and we've all learned to make due
@PetterFriberg ideally yes, that would be great
💩
I agree @Erik, honestly, who uses chat anyway?
21:01
In reality, doesn't happen
Chat is a great tool. I can't count how many more people I've helped in the chat vs on main
@TravisJ it doesn't help that every time they post job hirings there seem to be none for helping develop the main site. They're all for other things (SRE, Jobs, Teams, etc)
Super under utilized.
@TylerH Not going there :)
21:02
SE devs have to eat food too..
They aren't genies
@SterlingArcher too many declined or approved?
@TravisJ not trying to start anything, just lamenting
🍕
@PetterFriberg both ways tbh
@ErikA It's not broken, it just doesn't have good use cases. Need to delete something? Your options are "No" and "30 min ban". We need another option between those two
21:03
I've seen horrible messages countered, and not flag worthy at all messages get people suspended
well, we have a 3rd option
"move"
hence all the "trash" rooms
@BhargavRao the funny thing was in a recent blog post they said SE was hiring devs so I peeked at the jobs page and there were no open dev positions listed lol
@KevinB Yeah, but "move" isn't the same as "delete". If it were, moderators wouldn't have a delete option
@SterlingArcher ok, well I have had very little issues with flags, so I'm not really aware of the problem.
@SterlingArcher that was explained recently
basically, they already had a pool of applications apparently
21:04
@PetterFriberg several years in RO'ing the JS room will show you things lol
@KevinB that makes sense, but also it doesn't
What if the perfect applicant can't apply because it's locked?
@Machavity Well, broken is a strong word, there are just a lot of small things that could use some TLC like flags, deletion for RO's, not being in line with the ToS/CC things, etc
@SterlingArcher just fill it with bots and problem solved ;)
LOL
oh my god the amount of times people flagged the bot
HAMMERTIME
people should work, not chit chat
21:06
Who isn't working?
o/
it's 4pm on a friday. Yeah right!
(hire me pls)
it's Sat 2:30AM :p
y u no sleep
I'll sleep in the morning :P
like a true dev *nods*
21:09
True devs don't sleep :D
@BhargavRao I stay up for hours on end writing enterprise integrations so that I can finally take that week-long nap I deserve.
@BhargavRao What is this "sleep" you speak of?
@TravisJ my software?
oh, that is a what ...
hah :D
It's 1:14pm Friday in CA here
Working on data analytics for one of our projects at work... gotta keep an eye on things sometimes
When I left from work the database cluster was recovering from an out-of-memory fault. Pingdom now reports all services are running. I guess it is done recovering.
21:21
OOM? Hmm. While running a read or write?
@KevinB Burninations are, to a large extent, about closing and deleting the questions in the tag that are off-topic, not just wholesale removing the tag. If it was just wholesale removing the tag, a CM could do that quite easily. If you see someone removing the tag being burned from questions which should be closed/deleted, then they are doing it wrong. When you see that, please mention it in the room monitoring that burnination, so that the problem can be corrected and the user educated.
7
21:39
@KevinB If you are a room owner you can see what the content of the deleted post was by looking at the history. It's possible to go from that to a userscript that shows deleted chat messages to ROs inline. In fact, if you want that, the SOCVR Request Archiver will show the deleted messages either on hover, or always inline in both chat and transcript pages. The Archiver has a bit more functionality than most need, but showing deleted posts should work in any room where you are an RO.
@Makyen If you archive deleted comments proactively, sure. But you wont see any indication of a deleted comment otherwise after the time window elapses for chat to maintain it.
As an aside, you have stored all of the deleted comments from your chat room? Might be some information in there that was not intended to be retained.
@TravisJ As far as I know that only true for users who are not ROs.
Right, i can see removed messages just fine as long as they're still in the active log. but as soon as its in transcript, i can't see them directly even when linked directly to them by a mod.
I can see it if i get a link to the history of a particular message of course
@TravisJ As far as I've seen, the chat database retains the data permanently. I'll double check though. It should be easy to test for some deleted SmokeDetector posts in SOCVR Graveyard, but that will only be a couple of years back.
Right @KevinB
Got some things to do o/
21:48
@KevinB Yeah, it was a bit inconvenient to get the userscript to show deleted messages in transcript pages, but it works fine, as far as any testing I've done. Hmmm... I must admit I don't recall if I've tested that it will properly highlight the deleted message when you link to it.
 
1 hour later…
23:06
@TravisJ I didn't do exhaustive testing (and had to fix a bug in the Archiver), but testing indicated that deleted messages are retained by SE chat at least back to 2013-11-26, which has the first deleted message in SOCVR. From that, I assume that they are retained permanently.
23:24
@Makyen - Interesting, I haven't looked behind the scenes much to see if the deleted comments were retained in the database. Chat is a third place afterall :P
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