@CodyGray could I ask you to review and potentially remove the bottom clutter from my nomination post? I'm not scared of it hurting my votes (let's be honest here lol), but it's wildly off topic, and borderline accusatory with no sourcing
@CodyGray Well, it could be an interesting take on what it means to be a moderator beyond clicking decline in the flag queue. But we have time to work on the exact wording of that question.
@SterlingArcher I specifically have left the gravatar comments from the past few days, though, because (A) they're on-topic, and (B) I kinda agree with 'em...
@TravisJ Yes but also the fact that it feels that even SE sees as them versus us, a lot of complains lately have been of this type and personally from neither side this is good for anyone. We would need more coercion.
@TravisJ It's certainly true we can't keep up with all the meta conversations. But I'm not sure per-site metas are entirely to blame. In fact, I think per-site metas help in a sense because they allow individual communities to solve their own problems independently. So we don't need to be on top of every discussion.
@PetterFriberg I don't think they see it as a them versus us, that isn't a fair description. There are certain users who do seem to try to make that distinction though, and who unfairly depict SE actions as intentionally deceptive.
Interesting. I don't really get that feeling. I have plenty of criticisms that I could direct at Stack Exchange the company, but we have pretty darn good CMs.
They're chronically overextended, of course, but that's not their fault.
@JonEricson I think that there is a great advantage to the individual community feeling in the per-site metas. In the regards of micro management for their individual needs and not feeling drowned out it makes a lot of sense. With regards to actually dealing with real problems, they fall short...
... That many of them have similar problems represents a real issue; and that it eventually reaches the level necessary to be addressed at MSE or on the blog just shows that some problems are impossible to solve on a per site meta scale.
@Jean-FrançoisFabre You can always flag on of your posts with a custom mod message and some links to where the problem you couldn't flag were. Or, you could also use the contact us form (albeit a little slower).
@SterlingArcher It is what we're here for. The only downside is you're having to ping one specific mod, instead of letting whoever has a second handle it. That's why flags are good.
@CodyGray lately with all meta post related it seems like we can't get any good out of it, it becomes only a place to complain and to defend.. But yeah maybe only me looking for more constructive, collaborative way to solve issues
@JonEricson You need to use Meta more. Talked to Shog about that a while back, and about the internal apprehension towards it, but sharing more with the most invested members of your community is really important, and I'm glad you are taking steps towards doing it. I think that's more important than a formal bug database. We don't need to see the nitty gritty details; we just need to feel included and heard.
@JonEricson - I personally miss hearing the outlook that you, Josh, Jay, and Tim used to give on at least a weekly basis on mSO. It was such a driving force for the community. My suggestion for merging the metas again (or to call out that the per site metas are problematic) are just a manifestation of that and my attempt to try to find a solution for it.
Unrelated: Just realized that this election didn't have any impact on the mod queue. Usually mod queues increase during elections meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/352616/… ...
@CodyGray Yes. We're talking about it internally and I think it's a big problem. It's also an amazing opportunity to build comradery between users of the sites and the people working them. Among the problems is that when employees do participate, they aren't treated very well all the time:
Thanks to all for your comments and discussion. One great point brought up in a couple of ways was how much these proportions vary over longer periods of time, and how surprising a shift like this is.
You can see here that there was a long-term trend toward higher values of this proportion of ...
I have to admit, I have some concerns about this type of data analysis, too. I think it overlooks far too many confounding variables, and tries to draw far too sweeping of conclusions from the limited amount of data that's available.
So...I'm not sure that people expressing those concerns is bad, as long as they do it in a respectful way.
I get how it would be kinda discouraging for people to be less than enthusiastic about your work.
@Makoto I mean, the tone on meta is extra combative lately and I don't want to stifle legit criticisms. So I'd like to lose the first without losing the second. (Which is no answer at all, I know.)
@JonEricson I see your point. It may be tough to filter the noise from signal on Meta when it comes to feedback. Having people disagree with a perspective or data is perfectly healthy, but it's important that such disagreements don't boil over into attacks or mistrust.
@CodyGray I think a lot of employees feel they are very good at their jobs and meta just wants to kubitz. It comes off as assuming employees are bad at their work.
I don't know that I see an elevation of negativity lately. I do think the negativity has increased over time, but that's largely attributable to fatigue of veteran users with the low-quality content on the site and their feeling powerless to do anything about it. I can relate.
I also think that meta is becoming far too focused on minuscule tagging details. Sending out raiding parties aimed at tags is perhaps not as productive as other activities would be.
The dev team is actually doing a lot of stuff to improve the moderator tools. Like really a lot. The general users don't have any idea about those stuff as it is supposed to be mod only.... which is kinda sad..
From observing both this new app and the older Stack Exchange app - which I've been using for years now - I get the impression that this hits the 80% use case.
Effectively, they help out with the primitive functionality of the site:
Look at questions
Search questions
Get notifications (includi...
@JonEricson Maybe it's high time we acknowledge and accept that we are critical. I really have to put together those thoughts on what it is later on...
To be fair, Meta is a place to be critical. Too many people equate criticism with bad, but I just can't follow the logic. Criticism makes things better. We all share the same goal (I hope): to make this the greatest Q&A site out there.
@CodyGray there is a difference on having critique on what we're doing and who is doing it. Lately somehow it gets personal, specially towards staff. Weird.
@CodyGray I mean, every so-often on Meta I see a post in which someone's asking, "Why is this bad?" in which I can't objectively see a major gripe with it. Someone manages to come up with a reason, which I don't disagree with, but I can't agree with either.
@CodyGray I think the trouble is meta is sometimes disproportionately critical. Or maybe we (the people who are familiar with how the sites work under the hood) don't do enough to explain why small-seeming things are so important to the functioning of the sites.
"We want to do something": I know that if users see content problems, they will use whatever tools or options available in order to address it. However, organizing a large group to coordinate efforts against tags greatly bends the intention of individual user moderation as it amplifies the effect greatly.
@JonEricson I only have an outsider's view here, but sometimes it seems as though the staff dismisses things as irrelevant/unimportant because they would be so difficult to implement (for a variety of reasons, maybe technical debt, staff shortages, limited funds, etc.). Which makes sense, but the community who uses the site every day doesn't really care about that, and arguably shouldn't be expected to.
@CodyGray yes, we should all learn to ask did this post deserve this faith? instead of which user deleted my post and why haven't they been banned yet?
@Makoto It really isn't. That wasn't really the intent of the room (I was there when it was started btw), and rene does a lot of work to make sure that the direction is aimed at individual moderation.
@TravisJ The bigger problem is, ironically, we don't have enough community participation in the tag discussions. You end up with the same group of users over and over who are doing all the retagging and decision-making. That's no slight against them. They're heavily invested and doing it for the good of the site. But they're also not experts on every tag, and don't have the background knowledge to necessarily make the best decisions.
@BhargavRao - As stated a few times here ( I was trying to get to your comment ), the issue isn't with fixing tags, it is with organizing large groups in tandem. This wasn't really the design of the way user moderation was supposed to work.
@CodyGray Definately. I push toward more honesty, but sometimes it's easier to downplay problems. (I'd also not be surprised if people don't realize they are dismissing problems because we can't solve them right now. Not everyone can see outside the boundaries of their individual and immediate work.)
@BhargavRao Almost none, because the tooling is horribly broken. It has been since forever. One of my top scoring MSE questions is a criticism of that. But there have been tons of individuals who have completed tag burninations, and that creates a lot of disruption and annoyance.
@BhargavRao This isn't directed at you. It is that group mentality plays out in the way the tags end up getting handled by users that you are perhaps not even aware of.
@BhargavRao As of now people feel meta is useful for this reason because you are!, I can't see how this could be negative... atleast something change and not everything stays at 6-8
@PetterFriberg That's true, but the other side of it is the answerers, the experts on that tag, who are down in the trenches slogging it out. Suddenly, the landscape changes, and they don't know why or maybe disagree with it.
It can be very disruptive. And that's putting aside the issue of mass retags bumping a bunch of old uninteresting questions to the homepage.
A large amount of time spent by highly active meta users is dedicated to removing content. This to me is problematic because there is now a bunch of outlook about how to identify every angle of what can make a post poor. There is no balance between what makes posts good, or about creating content.
I agree with his methods. He does lots of research and checks things out thoroughly. He does everything he can do as a moderator. But we desperately need more involvement from the people who actually use these tags day to day to find questions to answer.
@BhargavRao - If anything I see you more as a gatekeeper from this activity. It has been fully out of control before. So, I definitely don't think you should take this as a reflection of me criticizing you.
@JonEricson I think there is not enough user advocating going on - people are too often rude in the name of focusing on content such that they forget that we are all people. It's easy to dismiss someone's experience when you're not the one on the receiving end, after all
@PetterFriberg I don't know. If we could solve that problem, that'd be great. But in the meantime, what is the urgency here? I guess that's the big question. Why is it more important to spend time removing tags, than to spend that time improving the site in other ways?
The Trogdor room is meant to bring back sanity in the flood of tag requests on Meta. Declining those requests was the most important goal and next was getting the ones that seemed reasonable back in the light to see if they still had merit and if they did, get it moving. Mods where instrumental in that and as with SOCVR, the process is open and transparent.
@TylerH What does user advocacy look like? Meta is naturally going to be spotlighting problematic content. There are plenty of other venues to spotlight great content.
@CodyGray The urgency is because requests that were posted when they once had 100 questions are not taken care at all... the tags are now past 1k questions, and are accelerating at a high pace, when we can never get them into shape.
Tags is one of the ways in which we are trying to help. I am sorry that it might cause a mess on main meta page, but it's something which had to be done long back, but wasn't
@CodyGray I'm not so much for burnation, in fact I tend to dv most since not worth the time but synonyms etc could really improve some tags and yeah as a user on meta currently this is the only constructive suggestion I feel is useful, suggesting rep for closing dupe is hardly worth the time
@BhargavRao - I see, you think that I said this because you bumped meta posts? I think that marking those as status- is important. This is not because of that, it is just in response to the amount of those requests that get posted by other users at a constant pace.
@CodyGray Eh, I lean way closer to "everyone" than "mod only"... I'm thinking like a 2k user privilege at least, if not lower. At least, for tag view pages. Let it still bump questions to /questions, etc.
@TravisJ I agree the amount of tag burnination posts is "too damn high" right now. I think a large part of that is because people see some activity being done by the folks at Trogdor and think "oh cool, tag burninations"
One with with requests also, is that some users who don't full understand the goals here will strike out immediately and not follow the official process.
@TravisJ The reason it's touchy is that we have some users (also active on Meta) who are of the "never burn anything" mindset. I'm not saying that's your position, but several things you've said could be interpreted that way
The other day, a top user posted this meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/380980/…. And it was very clear that it was a pressing issue. These kinda requests are what we need.
@Machavity I am of the mindset that mass editing causes more problems than it solves. If there is going to be a burnination, then you better convince a critical audience of that. Often, I will try to portrait the critical audience point of view in order to show that there is a need to clear that hurdle.
@KevinB I don't like burninations because they're a massive time sink without any reward (beyond curation). But having seen some bad tags first hand (and realizing new people seldom read excerpts) it's very necessary too
I mean, tags are such a small aspect of a post. They don't hit google, they barely effect SO search. Extra tags on questions with <100 views are not exactly placing the exchange in mortal danger here.
@TravisJ Tags do hit Google, but I agree. I think there's a bunch of uncertainty around what they are. Clearing that up would probably make the necessary actions far clearer.
@CodyGray Heh, there's no easy solution to hard questions, I'm afraid... User advocacy can start with CMs (perhaps a CM specializing in user advocacy?) reviewing mod interactions for times they could've been more... erm... less 'cold'. E.g. "consider the rehabilitation part of fixing behavioral problems" (I'm not saying there are currently problems with how mod interactions are worded...). Then they start encouraging mods to reach out to more users where they notice users might be getting upset
In short, while it's important to be dispassionate about each situation, we should still try to be warm when dealing with each person
I just wish there was some way to do it without bumping the posts, or maybe having the effort coincide with an effort to take care of the questions with the tag that should be closed/deleted in the same swing.
Imo the problem with burnination is that tag creation is broken. Allowing any user with 1.5K+ rep to create any tag they wish doesn't fit the scale and maturity of SO
@TravisJ Tags can be a real PITA. I monitor edge for people who mean microsoft-edge; it's way better than it used to be but there are still 10+ posts a week that need fixing. Now, part of that problem is that we have a edge tag in the first place
@KevinB Another issue with that is, if there is a group of users who spend all their available time cleaning up tags, and the group overlaps timezones, and there are more posts to be cleared than they have time to do... then every day there is a constant stream of these posts being bumped onto the active page. Amplifying this is the fact that the active page is what is shown to new users who nav to stackoverflow.com
@Undo Sure, but that's not really directly relevant nor does it scale well. And even if you do reach out to a CM, there's no guarantee of 'resolving a problem' from when mods have proceeded terribly (I'm speaking from experience, albeit another site)
i don't mind the chat flag system.. it's the lack of being able to delete stuff in-line, and not being able to see deleted messages in the transcript, etc
a lot of context gets lost if you just move stuff out
@TravisJ Chat is likely to remain broken, unfortunately; Joel said on a podcast once that chat was stupid (verbatim). I don't see many (read: any) resources getting thrown that way
@TylerH I have talked to balpha (the main author of the chat feature) about it before. That guy is swamped. There are so many things he deals with, things you want him to finish too... so I don't think we will see chat change for a very long time.
@TravisJ it doesn't help that every time they post job hirings there seem to be none for helping develop the main site. They're all for other things (SRE, Jobs, Teams, etc)
@ErikA It's not broken, it just doesn't have good use cases. Need to delete something? Your options are "No" and "30 min ban". We need another option between those two
@BhargavRao the funny thing was in a recent blog post they said SE was hiring devs so I peeked at the jobs page and there were no open dev positions listed lol
@Machavity Well, broken is a strong word, there are just a lot of small things that could use some TLC like flags, deletion for RO's, not being in line with the ToS/CC things, etc
When I left from work the database cluster was recovering from an out-of-memory fault. Pingdom now reports all services are running. I guess it is done recovering.
@KevinB Burninations are, to a large extent, about closing and deleting the questions in the tag that are off-topic, not just wholesale removing the tag. If it was just wholesale removing the tag, a CM could do that quite easily. If you see someone removing the tag being burned from questions which should be closed/deleted, then they are doing it wrong. When you see that, please mention it in the room monitoring that burnination, so that the problem can be corrected and the user educated.
@KevinB If you are a room owner you can see what the content of the deleted post was by looking at the history. It's possible to go from that to a userscript that shows deleted chat messages to ROs inline. In fact, if you want that, the SOCVR Request Archiver will show the deleted messages either on hover, or always inline in both chat and transcript pages. The Archiver has a bit more functionality than most need, but showing deleted posts should work in any room where you are an RO.
@Makyen If you archive deleted comments proactively, sure. But you wont see any indication of a deleted comment otherwise after the time window elapses for chat to maintain it.
As an aside, you have stored all of the deleted comments from your chat room? Might be some information in there that was not intended to be retained.
Right, i can see removed messages just fine as long as they're still in the active log. but as soon as its in transcript, i can't see them directly even when linked directly to them by a mod.
I can see it if i get a link to the history of a particular message of course
@TravisJ As far as I've seen, the chat database retains the data permanently. I'll double check though. It should be easy to test for some deleted SmokeDetector posts in SOCVR Graveyard, but that will only be a couple of years back.
@KevinB Yeah, it was a bit inconvenient to get the userscript to show deleted messages in transcript pages, but it works fine, as far as any testing I've done. Hmmm... I must admit I don't recall if I've tested that it will properly highlight the deleted message when you link to it.
@TravisJ I didn't do exhaustive testing (and had to fix a bug in the Archiver), but testing indicated that deleted messages are retained by SE chat at least back to 2013-11-26, which has the first deleted message in SOCVR. From that, I assume that they are retained permanently.
@Makyen - Interesting, I haven't looked behind the scenes much to see if the deleted comments were retained in the database. Chat is a third place afterall :P