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16:03
@Neoares youtube hotkey is k
ahh, you say that later.
nvm.
morns
anyone ever used phantomjs? Any idea how to resize the output image?
isn't phantomjs dead?
I don't know, anyway its a legacy project.
I thought it went under since chrome headless came out
16:08
could be.
@mega6382 your best luck is most probably convert or something.
the main maintainer walked away
because of headless chrome
puppeteer is really nice
Is headless chrome bad? We use it here.
I just copied youtube
j: previous frame, k: play/pause, l: next frame
16:11
it has less visibility than Chrome proper
Also, I'm going to try to argue for a transition from angular to react. Does anyone have any strong opinions or articles that I can read that might help with this debate?
@ssube I thought it served a different purpose though?
We use it for testing, for instance
@Neoares youtube uses the angular brackets for traversing frames though
@Vap0r it depends...
it's mostly for testing, but you can use it for other things
I mean it's pretty hard to argue rewriting something from one current framework into a current set of libraries
16:13
@Ikari what?
tried with <>
doesn't work
Angular is still current, if you can't articulate reasons why the company should pay X dollars in conversion its hard for anyone else to
also, I don't need youtube's J and L features, so I adapted them
@ssube gotcha. Are you familiar with jsdom? I believe it serves the same purpose (as far as testing is concerned)
@Neoares it works, look closely
jsdom and plenty of other tools do some of what you need
being able to test on a full-blown browser with real quirks is nice
16:14
@Loktar my main argument are proven performance implications. But I'd like a couple other arguments as well so my performance argument isn't instantly countered with the "we currently implement angular so conversion costs don't justify the performance improvements" argument
without the shitshow that is karma and selenium
@Vap0r do you have some concrete examples to give them in regards to performance in your current application?
@Loktar most of them boil down to the stuff mentioned here: medium.freecodecamp.org/…
I mean showing benchmarks doesn't always translate to perceived performance degradation from the user
@Vap0r which angular version?
16:16
That makes sense. Is there anyway to prove or disprove performance implications without spending developer time on rewriting certain parts of our application in the to-be-considered library?
@FlorianMargaine 4
yeah man idk I mean I love react but this article is just picking through the weeds. Sure 10ms is faster than 32ms... but a user isn't going to notice that ever
why do you want to change?
^ yeah that's the main argument really, it's a current vs of Angular
that's a tall order to ask to change
the performance win is very small compared to the change cost
16:17
I believe react is easier to understand
if it was some old vs, easy sell. Or even making a new app, easy sell
I also don't like how angular kind of assumes a pattern
@FlorianMargaine what is convert ? is that like a package?
re-lol
@mega6382 imagemagick
16:18
@ssube lol right, I mean is 100ms worth some value here that's in the thousands
thanks
@Vap0r it feels like you want to change for the sake of changing
100ms on every API endpoint? absolutely. 100ms on a few interactions on very heavy pages? ehhhhh
@Ikari I guess you're trolling me
@ssube it depends on the application as well
16:18
feeling like you don't have enough work or something?
if so, it's a good prank actually
and you can always blame high fps videos
for banking sure, you can measure time and cost
it's also difficult to every get to the point where you see those benchmark returns
like "keep pressing"
you need to really be stressing things in the exact same way to get the same results
16:19
but yeah I'm talking about rendering since it's Angular vs React anyway
that's the downfall of focused benchmarks
it actually works for real tho, not trolling, honestly
api endpoint times should be the same regardless
@Ikari are you using chrome? I'm in firefox
yeah, I'm using chrome
16:19
@Vap0r how large is the application, and how many developers?
Loktar yes, but cutting the same amount of time off of a few API calls is probably worth a lot more than spending it on the frontend, is what I mean
@FlorianMargaine I guess I don't really like angular. The html/xml attribute w/ programming directives structure is ugly IMO
not sure if it's chrome only. highly unlikely to be so
@Vap0r yeah Angular is gross
@Loktar how do I measure "largeness" of an application
16:20
@Vap0r eh few ways, estimated loc?
isn't a concrete measurement but can at least outline some of the perceived complexity
~ 15 developers though. Maybe 6-8 of which actually touch the angular
loc?
One more question
declaring before read or write of let variables. Is this a good practice?
lines of code
16:21
Oh.... Ummm. Probably in the neighborhood of 100k?
60k-100k?
It's hard to guess. In react I would probably say that the actual HTML structure is separate from the loc count
@Vap0r the main advantage of opting into the conventions of Angular is that they can rewrite massive part so of their framework and you get the benefits.
In angular since a lot of the programming structure is contained within the HTML it becomes harder to separate out (for me)
@Vap0r in react it's all tied together too
Have a look into the work that is coming with the Ivy renderer, or Angular elements, or the CLI and ng upgrade and there’s some very compelling reasons to stick with that ecosystem
lol anyway not trying to shit on your for wanting to use React, but I think that is a tough sell to any company
16:23
@Loktar I suppose so but ng conditionals and looping are more baked into the structure of the page than using ES .map
if you're using something current and want to side grade instead of upgrade.. eh
Plus we have situations where we're still using jQuery
yeah, it's a tough sell even to me, who's not part of your company
I feel like you're a kid trying to do shiny stuff on company's dime
Sounds like there’s stuff you could do to improve your app without swapping frameworks.
All of our developers on this product prefer react
@phenomnomnominal absolutely. Most of my arguments go away if we were able to use angular correctly
16:25
preference of a library wont make them all better coders
So ask to pay for training or time to learn
if they've done it wrong with angular.. they will most likely do it wrong with react
i want to do webcrapping but there is form which i needs to submit to do get all data
2
plus you have to source all your own libraries for everything else
16:26
is there any suggestion how to do it?
making it potentially a stickier situation for poor development
> webcrapping
LOL
@Loktar but that's just the thing. I think our developers understand ES just fine and are good developers in that right. But angular's structure and layout make it tougher for them to implement new ES features into it
@Loktar fill in the form?
16:27
@FlorianMargaine I mean for routing, data handling, everything else but rendering
I’d rather strong conventions over decisions if they haven’t been making good decisions thus far
I can't really recommend webcrapping though
Angular gives that all to you out of the box
But it also makes a lot of assumptions with those libraries
it's not complex to find good libraries, however it's just another thing you have to deal with/consider
16:28
In some cases trying to work with those included tools has created issues
and when those lose their favor, you need to swap or rewrite heh.
I would just prefer to write the routing
And then how would you handle bundling and splitting?
And lazy loading?
webpack I believe
It’s be a bunch more work.
16:29
not sure about lazy loading
@Loktar ugh, wrong ping, sorry
idk these are things for a new app, but for a rewrite you need a solid plan of attack
you can't just be like "We'll figure it out"
because that's all just money, and for what?
@Loktar I'm trying to figure out the plan of attack
no you're trying to figure out how to persuade people to use a different library completely and the benefits of switching gears mid dev cycle
when asked a specific question from @phenomnomnominal you kind of floundered, that's information and knowledge you need upfront
this fuck command is saving me some precious seconds every day with "git"
16:32
angular does bundling?
@Loktar I don't get where you're coming from with this. I didn't flounder in the slightest
I answered what I could, and said I don't know on what I couldn't
@Vap0r lol my point is you need to know if you're trying to sell something new mid dev cycle
you're asking us how you can sell React
you have knowledge of your application, not us
you should have a whole list of benefits
I can't put in the time on that stuff if there are no stories for it. And there will be no stories unless I can give a general overview of benefits
> React would really benefit us in X which will affect users in Y, making our application better in "Measurable quantity"
A research task would then be created and I'd be allowed to devote time to answering these instance specific questions
16:36
@JonClements lmao that closing statement...
what
just just random pinged a mod?
user1596138
Switching to React due to a poorly architected Angular app with the same devs is a wonderful example of smoke and mirrors
user1596138
Good way to stay on payroll and keep sucking lmao
@Neoares I'm spying on him taking down a really weird chatroom :D
> webcrapping
16:37
idk I'd have a demo written in my free time if I Really wanted to sell it
just saw that, lmao
When all the devs would like to switch to react rather than fix the current angular/jquery app it makes sense to ask the question "why"?
to show the benefits with our application specifically
in Room for Zoe and Derek, 2 mins ago, by Andrew Minh Skettles
the way the mods act on this site reminds me of how china acted at Tiananmen Square
Rude!
@SterlingArcher hey... I enjoy getting new fans... one day I might even be able to form a club of more than 0
16:37
@SterlingArcher sauce pls
nice
@Vap0r maybe they are just bad devs and don't understand?
user1596138
@Vap0r Did they write the original?
@JonClements I was tempted to flag that and him calling you a tyrant D:
@Jhawins no
But I didn't wanna cause more shit for you lol
user1596138
16:38
Oh then Idk
user1596138
Nvm
How long ago did development start?
and why is the dev team entirely different?
Nobody here really has friends anyways. Why do you think we come here?
~5 years ago?
Shit I don't even know if @Loktar is real he could have been catfishing me for the last 5 years
user1596138
16:38
..
Not entirely different, just switched to different products. The angular decision was made for a different product
@SterlingArcher psh I talked to you on the phone remember?
like PHONE not hangouts
lol
user1596138
@SterlingArcher either @loktar or me is fake. Not saying which one. There's a reason we're so tied together
Pft anybody can use a voice changer on the phone!
For all I know you're 3 fat chicks in a trailer park
haha
user1596138
16:39
I'm his alter ego
If so, I'm still down
s/still//
wait still down for what?
@Loktar most of the devs have moved to different products, and our product is relatively new (last 4ish years) and was assigned to the same standards as our previous products
16:40
@Loktar PARAA PARAAAP
user1596138
@Vap0r 5 years of dev in a 4 year product
Oh boy, I hit a snag.
@SterlingArcher dude I'm confused af
@Jhawins company has been around for 20+ years
@Loktar it's the coffee, don't mind me
16:41
@Jhawins angular was a decision from a previous product
Oh no, tomorrow I put in the next set of aligners D: more pain incoming
@Vap0r I would just sell it as React will be around longer with less breaking changes and cite the whole Angular 1.x > 2.x fiasco, then show some trends from SO surveys and even google trends on the significant react growth. Then find a few post mortems from large companies like Walmart, Linkedin which talk about why the switched to react and how it helped them
the first part isn't necessarily true, but meh.
you will find a bunch of good articles out there from big companies who switched to React, another good thing would be to take a small section of your application and rewrite it in React
Ok that'll work. It very well could turn out that react isn't the right move, from a business sense and that the right move after that is to just do better angular dev (via training, putting in tech debt tasks to update clunky areas, etc..)
on your freetime if possible, nothing large, but just to show how fast/easy it is, was, and that it performs "better"
But I'll be arguing this to management
16:43
also that gives you a chance to sort out some challenges as well if you write it on your own initially, just a small piece
Not developers, since the developers are all onboard
People like to "see" something, so if you can show them something I imagine you'd get more on board
@Loktar This is reasonable
user1596138
@Loktar s/(componentWill.+)/UNSAFE_$1/
but be prepared for the same types of questions we asked ;P but more related to money I'm sure haha
16:45
Prepare to have a plan too
^ yes for sure
How would you roll it out
How do you release feature by feature
right, yeah like in pieces, or a full rewrite while maintaining the current code base? Or maybe a beta for users.. etc.
Or do you need to do a Big Bang?
Are you aiming for the exact same design?
Not trying to get into too much of that just yet, but I know that a component by component gradual release would be a better sell
Just probably harder to work around
user1596138
16:47
How do you accomplish that within an Angular app
You need to get into that.
You can run a react app inside an Angular app if you want
user1596138
Like you can't replace all your angular dropdowns with Reacxt
But I’d suggest doing it based on routes
user1596138
Unless you're being insane lol
user1596138
I am referencing "component by component"
16:48
What is your test suite like? Can you reuse them?
You really need to be able to quantify the effort and the value.
You would need to have a task to create our basic form components. Then our basic UI components. That we just got new UI style guides that include a different UI layout with material should make this easy
There would be some tough points
@phenomnomnominal The first step is convincing management that it's worth researching
The researching tasks will let us know whether it's worth adopting
That decision will spawn more research tasks to determine the how
all the red tape
@KevinB red tape/agile
I'm too new to the agile framework to argue for/against it but it's anecdotally better than the process from any of my previous shops
@phenomnomnominal test suite is karma
If I was your management I’d shred you if you don’t have some of these answers tbh
@phenomnomnominal our management is pretty staunch supporters of making sure you don't have to develop outside of business hours to support business improvements
16:53
that makes sense after you've proven that something is an improvement
How do you structure relationships in stores?

If you have a PersonStore that has all your Persons, and every Person has n Things, how do you link the ThingStore and the PersonStore?

I'm a little confused
That's why we have incremental baby steps. Are the developers on board? Is there an issue with how we do it? What are the pros/cons of new implementation? What are the pros/cons of old implementation. These questions in a non-instance-specific way will allow us to use our current process to not waste resources attacking this problem
@Vap0r a good way would be to show a comparison. Like angular did this like so: in 150 lines of code. React did it with less resources in 38.
So not just show a react example, show a direct comparison
Newegg is selling God of War (PS4) for $49 via their eBay storefront - ebay.com/itm/382440322243?rmvSB=true&rmvSB=true
Those will lead to more difficult to answer and ultimately more important questions, many of which you guys have framed well here
16:57
Speaking of deals, todays Fanatical deal: fanatical.com/en/game/dex $1.50
heh one of my friends reviews of that game..
> wouldn't recommend this game. It has some nice ideas for the world and such, but the gameplay isn't fun. Combat is either stupid and easy or just frustrating and difficult. It isn't hard by design, its just you litterally get gangbanged if there are more then two enemies.

Save yourself some time and money and do not buy.
@SterlingArcher those types of considerations are generally understood by our developers. I'm not sure if they'd be completely meaningless to management but I'm positive they wouldn't be compelling to them
Archer levels dex
and the top review is bad.. but the rest are good
why is the SO chat time not the same as my pc time?
17:00
Because the SO server isn't in your timezone?
@Loktar steamcommunity.com/id/IceNxne/games/?tab=all look! I'll catch you in no time :D
but it adjusts to your local timezone
Has anybody played either Wolfensteins?
it isnt the server time
@SterlingArcher damn dude getting close
@SterlingArcher first one is great
I played wolf 3d
17:01
first new one
2nd one had pretty bad reviews due to performance and story iirc. It goes on sale pretty often though.
Aww that's a shame, the whole milkshake scene looked great
I loved the first one personally, I'll get the 2nd eventually
I have both, haven't played 2, but 1 was great
there's a scene where his wife is topless and pregnant with blood raining on her (from her blowing people up).. idk seems a little chessy (in the 2nd one)
I'll get the first one :D
But I need to beat Alien Isolation first
17:03
Wolfenstein has always been pretty gratuitous and cheesy
the last one before the reboot had ghosts and leather ninjas
@Sterling I've watched Hannah and Kim from the yogscast play that I think... seems quite scary a game at times :)
@ssube lol not that cheesy though ^
@JonClements are those the funny ladies with accents? And which game, Wolfenstein or Alien: Isolation?
@Loktar jesus dude nsfw that
@Loktar that is pushing it, it's a little weird
17:04
lmao right?
Can't click at work D:
yeah I saw that on release night and was like ehh I'll pass for now lmao
normally I'd be for most of those things, but that... is a little much
@Sterling AI - although... don't know if anyone ever remembered waiting for en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasmagoria_(video_game) to come out - that was fairly graphic even then and is probably still one of the more grotesque games in existence...
17:05
I got it with my GPU, though, so...
will have to play it eventually
@phenomnomnominal Awesome, you went to ng-conf?
They're all friends, did you tell them you know me?
@JonClements idk, some of those recent horror games have been setting new high water marks (it's water, I swear)
@Loktar ugh... they never learn
bloody mess. perfect white teeth
Outlast and The Forest were both scary
@JonClements if you haven't played it, I highly suggest it. I'm 3 hours in on mission 5 and it's spectacular. I think I'm more anxious just by the environment and limited mobility than the (not many so far) jump scares
Bloody good game, RIP Axel though
17:06
@rlemon Dragon's Age 1 made the mistake of giving people gross teeth and the internet tore them apart
even though it was realistic (ish), nobody brushed back then
I don't care if they all have great dental plans
@rlemon what are you, British?
but when there is blood on your lips, there will be blood on your teeth
@rlemon idk I'm not a mouth breather
there should be, but if teeth aren't white, people flip
@Loktar are you sure? in most situations where you end up bloody, you probably are
17:08
her teeth just look fucking weird anyway
@ssube oh you 😉
Can confirm, definitely mouth breathed when my leg was spraying blood
i.redd.it/z4oh45r34ut01.gif when poly bridge goes too far?
I fucked that ambulance up dude
@rlemon that's a qwolity bridge
@rlemon LMAO wtf
17:10
IS THAT A QWOP REFERENCE
YES
@BenjaminGruenbaum yep and yep!
Trying to wrangle something for a conf there
@FlorianMargaine As you were talking about cyclomatic complexity, I generally think of below testing by developer after writing the code:
@phenomnomnominal Awesome, they're all great (Shai Uri and Elad)
17:19
For testing from a developer perspective, Do you go for something else apart from these?
lol
@SterlingArcher I've got a load of games in Steam... the most played one is Magic... apart from that... just never find the time these days to play proper multiplayer ones - got a few hours racked up on Duke 3D, Civ and Portal2, but apart from those... shrugs
@KendallFrey it's better than the original and the original was so good
@JonClements ohhh add me on Steam! IceNxne
17:26
slurrrrp
Or get Overwatch and join us there :D
okay while I guess you're stupid...
lol
shave your head...eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
this is great.
@ndugger
you need these memes
bad lip readings are often good, but this one is especially good
@SterlingArcher haha... maybe... haven't even got steam installed at the moment... had almost a terabyte of games at one point that got played 2/3 hours each and that was it...
> it's a really great song
17:27
TED CRUZ!
To be fair, most people with 1tb of games haven't played a quarter of them :(
can confirm, have many unplayed games
that was excellent :D
Object.keys(object)[0] returns a string....but to access the item it has to be an integer? why?
keys() returns an array of strings
user1596138
17:30
@KendallFrey watching this with auto generated subtitles lol
user1596138
Ultimate fuckery
@erotavlas What do you mean? How do you know it has to be an integer?
@erotavlas all keys are strings
because when I do object[key] its expecting key to be an integer...it causes error when I enter the key as string
I repeat. all keys are strings.
17:32
@erotavlas What error?
const foo = {};
foo[1] = 'bar'; // the key is actually "1" not 1
yeah, you can't define an object with keys with any other data type than a string
you can try, but you'll get strings.
js casts it into a string if you try to set an int or smth as a key
nevermind I tried object[0] and object["0"] and they work
17:34
!!> const foo = {}; foo[() => Math.random()] = 1; foo
@Ikari symbol :)
@ssube "SyntaxError: expected expression, got keyword 'return'"
@ssube {"() => Math.random()":1}
@erotavlas You said it causes an error ._.
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah they were great! Elad says you’re a genius, but I set him straight 😛 your open source meetup sounds like a cool idea though!
Anybody notice something funky with this MTG game screenshot?
OH It's an E not an I
Haha whoops nevermind
17:41
@KendallFrey 2.6.2 is rolling out now
much <3
@SterlingArcher oh you play MTG?
lol
Elite Dangerous has a rimworld easter egg I guess
@JonClements not since high school. I used to have some pretty awesome decks, and would play tourneys at a comic book shop every wednesday
I didn't realize there was a video game version
17:42
@SterlingArcher nerd
Loved it though
@SterlingArcher oh loads for Windows and an online site as well with a client...
I don't play as much as I use to... but that's pretty much if I have a moment to play anything online what I play
neeeeeaaaat I'll have to check it out
> cartogrpahic, definetely
@KendallFrey I caused it, I did something dumb
wrote object[Object.keys(object)) instead of object[Object.keys(object)[I])
17:46
@SterlingArcher I'm not a good player in the grand scheme of things - I just enjoy it now and then... I also play bridge - I wouldn't say I'm an expert in either, but I don't let down a partner at least and while not pro - definitely above amateur
@erotavlas so you're relying on key order?
It's been a decade for me, so I know I'm rusty. But I loved playing those long games where you have a legendary deck captain.. I think the format started with an E?
But my main regular decks where dragons, mill, and slivers
nothing more satisfying than deploying The Rack and watching your opponent just drill through their lib
Just bought all the fear games for $5 :D
well worth it
1 is great, I enjoyed 3, and 2 had solid MP
3 was weird (like Far Cry 2/3 weird) and playing as the bad guy was cool, the enemies and setting (loonies in a suburb) was cool, and the plot was ok
@JonClements bridge is beyond fun
I haven't played in a while, I forgot my conventions
17:56
@rlemon sweet

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