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20:00
:p
@forresthopkinsa link?
He makes it sound rare for a dev to have a good understanding of both front-end and back-end development
Ryland Goldstein on October 17, 2019

This is the first in an ongoing series from developers expressing their opinions on various topics in the software engineering and computer science world. The opinions expressed here are solely those of the author. If you disagree, drop a comment and let us know your take—respectfully, of course.

I suspect that a lot of people will interpret this article as “gatekeeping.”  Although I can understand that perspective, I’ve strived to provide an honest outlook that reflects my experience over the last few years (mostly startups). I also want to explicitly disclaim that I will be focusing on f …

i'm a self prescribed "full-stack engineer", in that i'm one developer that plans, oversees, executes, and evaluates every web project that comes through our dept single handedly, from pre-planning, server procurement, devops, coding, and everything else. but... i'm not going to sit here and tell you that i'm an expert at all of it
Well naturally if someone only ever did React and nothing else, they'd be pretty damn good at it
20:02
I would happily hand off any part of it to someone who comes along willing to do it, but... yeah that doens't happen too often around here
But I don't think it's crazy for devs to have a pretty-good grasp of front-end and back-end
I mean sure
i started here as just a web dev, all i did was write code
but... as people left, and didn't get replaced, i took on more hats, and here i am, 11 years later
lol
did you demand a raise each time
one salary per hat man
Sidenote: I know this is js chat so there maybe biases but do you think Node.js can scale? Like do you think it could it be used for a big site? SO, PayPal, etc.
no, but they came at appropriate times
20:03
Anything can be used for a top site
I don't think Node.js is the most practical solution though
I think node.js is excellent at some things.
It's a very subjective question
static websites/content isn't one of them.
20:04
Is there a certain technical restriction?
Not really
The fundamental design of JS makes Node really good at handling the C10k problem
like most things, you can scale it up to fit the need
@forresthopkinsa Used, and used well and not upping hardware to subsidize poor software are different things
But you can do that just as well with Nginx so
@JBis Performance is not a weakness of Node
Personally, I just don't think Node is rigid enough for really big projects, but that really comes down to preference
20:06
I would prefer to be able to take a few of the hats off, but not so much that i'm willing to go somewhere else to get that
That makes sense
Do you agree with the article author that it's rare to find an engineer proficient at VCS, HTML/CSS/JS, Back-end langs, and DB
@forresthopkinsa can you explain?
IME that skillset seems pretty foundational
And do you think front end js skill is transferable to backend js skill?
@JBis It's like we were discussing the other day, I just prefer big projects to be inflexible
Yeah of course it is, as far as the language goes
20:08
interesting
the people on discord were complaining that it isn't flexible enough
yeah, ik
What do they prefer?
C# it appears
eh, I think knowing all sides of it at at least a basic level is a requirement.
20:10
@JBis .NET is way less flexible than Node
@KevinB agreed
like, understanding how SQL works, even though as a front-end dev you might not deal with it much, is important to effectively interacting with the backend
> Node.JS imposes a rigid way of doing things and I find that hinders productivity/flexibility that may be valuable at times.
Right. I think it would be weird for a non-junior front-end dev to not understand basic database querying
Jbis I don't know what those guys are smoking
My guess is that they have a lot more experience in .NET than Node
Sounds like people who just don't like node.js
So they're more comfortable with it
20:11
Exactly
:shrug:
If I say express in the context of node, what comes to your mind?
uhh.. express.js? is that the correct answer
yes
i don't know java/c*/php/asp for example, but... i respect that they're certainly good at what they can do. I've seen a lot of java apps that routinely have problems, but... I have a hard time blaming that on java
20:13
So I was arguing about this with someone and I brought up express and they didn't know what I was talking about. So I said that if you don't know what express is then I don't think you have enough experience with node to hate it.
didn't the express devs come out with a new thing to replace express a year or two ago
And then they said they were programming when I was in kindergarten
There are some languages that are just poorly designed and beg for bugs. I personally classify PHP with that. I don't classify Java that way.
@KevinB Yes, but also no. Yes they did but not to replace express.
@JBis ask them if they were programming Node while you were in kindergarten. heh
20:14
@KevinB koajs.com
I usually reach for express, because it's what i'm familiar with
Other than node.js, i use coldfusion
and coldfusion is what i spend most days working with
(which is part of why we can't find devs)
@forresthopkinsa Exactly. These people think that js was what it was 10 years ago and refuse to accept anything else other than the lang they know best and dismiss js.
@JBis I've heard of Koa but I've never used it. Looks pleasant
20:15
Look, you can use node without using express but I would think you would at least know what it is
Koa just reminds me of Koa campground, because they're all over the place around here
well, people who refuse to use anything other than the first lang that got a job with probably won't have employment for a long time
@KevinB buddum cha
JS haters gonna hate hate hate
speaking of learning... i'm about to learn whatever space engineers programmable blocks use
c something
C++? C#? C? Objective-C?
20:17
C-Lua probably
/s
Too many c's
After being exposed to so many Langs I have realized how much java sucks
like its a reaaaallly bad lang imo
PHP > Java IMO
i have no idea which one it is, i forgot.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ to each their own
all i know is their documentation for it is basically "go read a X getting started guide"
like, f that, i want to see working code first
screw manuals
mess with it until it works
20:23
exactly
That reminds me. It must be pretty intimidating and nerve wracking to program something where someones life is at stake. Like I'm making a website where someone is making something thats going into orbit or a machine that will preform surgery.
lots of tests
Some things you can't test
lots of unit tests
everything can be tested
20:28
I should try unit testing
@forresthopkinsa Also, thanks again for helping me with my website. I made it public yesterday.
Super cool!! Good work
backend is much better than frontend
Its difficult (or at least I don't know how) to modularize DOM interactions
 
1 hour later…
21:33
@JBis just a reccomendation, for that Portfolio site, the background is really impending, like it makes me want to click the inputs and buttons on it, might I suggest you add a css setting to make it less "distracting"
filter: blur(1px);
increase as necessary, but I think it would give a little bit of unfocus and make it more "minimal" or "fit"
just an idea ^_^
like what I did with mine, smooth transitions and blurs are a key spot for my color scheme
also, like my smooth transitions? its a little thing I did with underlying divs and iframes/covers
Any good js library for handling crypto? Need to be able to generate, store, and access public/private keys as well as handle RSA and AES encryption/decryption?
@TaylorS wdym "impending"?
its a little big and I can see moving text/inputs behind the main content, and its a little confusing
Nothing wrong with using text in backgrounds, as long as it doesnt intervene with the main content and/or make it seem hard to understand
@TaylorS why use onclick when you can just use href for a tag?
<a id="title" onclick="link('Pages/home.html')">Skylerspark.github.io</a>
@TaylorS Wdym? What is moving behind the background?
Eh, I just like handing it all in 1 function
rather than setting an onclick and href
oh I see, yeah maybe I'll blur
21:40
my old site stopped working, like it legitimately.. well.. a lot of the CSS Dimensions just suddenly stopped effecting the elements. there was nothing wrong with the selectors
I got bored of trying to debug it and rrewrote it
this "smooth transition" is my new masterpiece
and Im loving the idea of it so far
Im trying to get rid of that anoyying "Flash of white and loading symbol" when moving between pages
and so far so good
looks good
what the actual fucking thing happened to question downvotes
why not use Ajax instead of iframe?
@BartekBanachewicz wdym
I dont know anything about serversided languages, and this is github pages :3
I like static sites, no hassle of Hosters, VPS, Hardware, Seperate Server languages, blahblahblah
21:42
@BartekBanachewicz @KevinB stopped using the main site
lol
it's an a/b test
ive tried messing around with Ajax and PHP a couple times
this is beyond bullshit
but it doesnt interest me
21:43
@TaylorS ajax doesn't require server side lang
i am going to rant on meta and IDGAF if it's a duplicate
wow
wtf SO
Yes yes I know, but making a smooth transitioning site like that requires server sided ajax
unbelievable
omg
like microsoft teams or microsoft 365, the smooth flips between pages that they have, and saving the pages so they work without wifi
all that needs serversided ajax as far as Ive researched
unless I wanna try using deprecated site caching
21:45
wow that's a bold move on SE's part
heck a NO
@BartekBanachewicz Post on meta, you'll get a 100 upvotes
If you don't I will, but want to give you first dibs
SO has been degrading like this for a little while
I mean, im still question banned after a serial downvote that was FIXED luls
and honestly Ive gotten over it :P
@TaylorS
|| mdn Ajax
21:47
:L
@TaylorS ^^
I already know what ajax is lol
im just not interested in using it
> I dont know anything about serversided languages, and this is github pages :3
evidently not
Well, I may not know how to write in a serversided language like PHP
Ajax doesn't require server side Langs
21:48
but I understand the concept at the least
I already said that..
feeds stop interrupting .-. (yes I know its a bot)
Ill upvote that... SOs got some issues :>
@TaylorS did you read the firebase tutorials I sent you
21:49
Yes, but I decided to wait until I finish developing the base of my website
Im at home now, and I have the option to, so yes, I could use npm and build a firebase framework into my site
> You will see the user interface revert to normal behavior on October 23rd.
idiots
2
-5
A: Why can I no longer see that a post has a negative score?

Kevin BGenerally I agree with the idea behind this change from the perspective of making the site feel less harsh to users who aren't acquainted with the way SO works, but... it's so jarring. The banner popping up with every vote is annoying, so I adblocked that, and then when I'm viewing questions/answ...

KevinB feeling the heat
I think it's funny that your post about downvotes gets downvotes
21:55
Don't these people know that 90% of all downvotes on Main come from you originally
https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390427/im-resigning-as-a-stack-overflow-community-elected-moderator?cb=1

Finally someone notices
I upvoted kinda agree a bit
Im a couple days late, but man he has a good message there
yeah we've seen it @TaylorS
well, Im taking a break, going to go play a game and work on my website some more
cyall later, enjoy the meta drama ^-^
21:58
frankly with all the changes I have 0 interest in participating on main right now
all the meta nonsense was mildly amusing most of the time
but now it's just become unpleasant
is it time to make an open-source blockchain Q/A site
@TaylorS FYI, if you click one different pages really quick the animation doesn't always happen
@forresthopkinsa Already in the works
thank goodness
the real bs started when they started prioritizing new users over the ones that actually keep the site have good standards and good content
what will they do when all the high rep people who answer go away
I know it's cliche but it feels like a real Atlas Shrugged moment right here
@forresthopkinsa I wouldn't say that yet. Big changes and not everyone is gonna like it.
22:01
will it enable me to mine StackCoins
@forresthopkinsa discord
Nevermind Im back
@JBis yeah I remember that, im going to work on it, also I remember earlier you asked why i didnt use href
thats because link() sets the src of the iframe to the url
href would just work like a normal website
ruining the point. I use <a> tag because it doesnt wrap and its stylable
href, and than e.preventDefault
It will show properly for accessibility and hovering
.-.
hovering?
but you have no reason to see the link if my site never changes the URL
all the links are hidden inside the website
no need to leave the base URL skylerspark.github.io
Im eventually going to setup a link referrel system like the URL variables.
so that theres a variable for src
?src=projects
or something
So if you wanted to directly visit the projects page, you could
Again, no real reason to do that considering theres only 5 links in my entire site
and I dont plan on increasing that by much or at all
22:39
bam, blockchain proposal submitted
@forresthopkinsa ...I thought you were kidding lol
Originally I was
I ran with it
I mean decentralized isn't an awful idea
idk that it has to be blockchain
it would help with costs
Doesn't have to be at all
But it would be a neat application for it
Get the nerds on board
which is pretty much SE's entire target demographic
excuse me, I am not a nerd
I am very cool
22:49
oh yes sorry, everyone except you, mr. bis
;)
@JBis
I was playing around with your bot source code, but Im curious, is there a way with the bot API to be able to chat without having to earn the rep to talk here again?
Im bored, so an SO bot would be fun to make
Lol. This is more upvoted then my answers on my main account XD. Thanks people for giving my bot enough rep to chat! — JamesBot May 18 at 3:04
doesn't look like it
23:06
I don't think people will want any more SEChat bots. Make a Discord bot instead
It'll be easier and people will probably be more receptive to it as well
Im just bored, I want something to do
discord bots are boring :/
itll just collect dust because everyone would wanna use the popular bots :>
why are discord bots boring and SE bots fun?
it's gonna be the same deal on SE
@TaylorS it took me forever to get my bot accepted in this room
(and its still unofficial, rlemon can come back kick James out)
and discord there is already an API that exists, its easier than creating your own
Yeah, alright :P
@TaylorS Yes, on your account.
23:17
didn't think of that
Its not great, because of cool down period it will be slow
yeah i saw that
thats kindof crappy, but I understand why
dont want everyone spamming the API
Is there an API?
yesss
nooooooo
23:19
I thought these bots were just using phantomjs or something
you have to make your own
Main ain't Chat my pal
23:20
@TaylorS this is their general api, doesnt support chat
@TaylorS If you really want to create SO bot, you can use my boilerplate or someone else. There are a couple out there.
Which reminds me
I need to get eval working
eval schmeval
"eval working" oh god please dont tell me that... your....
using... eval()???
-
Yes
23:23
@TaylorS The bot needs to be able to execute arbitrary JS code
But it also needs to be properly sanitized
Well, I understand that
The risks are understood, I assure you
Alr..
jbis send him the link to Zirak's eval
Well, Discord bot it is I guess lol
time to learn python ,-,
^ check out that chatbot eval code
Note: That isn't code, Zirak just slammed on the keyboard and it worked
3
Ohhh...
I see
Its a home-made eval?
"safer"?
it's a safe eval function, yes
@forresthopkinsa I can't seem to find an API that will run code and return the result if you can find, please send.
23:26
Did you look into GCP Cloud Functions?
I don't know if it'll work but that's where I'd look
I already left GCP
GCP is top-tier
F GCP and them needing my bank info... lol
I mean... it is a paid service
yeah I know its free at first and its google-certified or whatnot
23:27
I can use GC (not sure Cloud Functions) for hosting but I would rather an API deal with the security implications of eval than me writing one.
Cloud Functions is serverless. You send it an input, it spins up a container, generates the output, sends it to you, and deletes the container
Well, I know nothing of python, and you cant just write it with html and enjoy the view like javascript
Completely stateless
so where should I start
@TaylorS "Python Crash Course"
it's a book
buy a hard copy, go through it beginning to end
23:29
@forresthopkinsa hmmm
pdf somewhere?
I have no money lol
And by the time you get to the end it will be outdated
Most books are digitized nowadays
@JBis alternatively just use a library
that may work
23:30
why did you decide against the safeEval npm package
@TaylorS I'm sure it's digitized somewhere but I find that paper books are easier to stick with
Anyways, don't pirate books, support authors man
@forresthopkinsa I don't trust it, I skimmed the code. It is sandboxed but doesn't seem to be whitelisted.
Honestly the only paper-backs I own in todays society are mangas and survival books, along with some cool natural disaster books
like Hatchet, one of my favorite survival stories
I never collect info books.
Somewhere inside of you, you lose them all the time, but deeper inside, you know you just dont want to continue reading them, so you hide them
@JBis unfortunate
@TaylorS that's the weirdest argument I've ever heard against buying paper copies of programming books
If we end up doing custom I'll publish to npm
What im saying is, you want to tell yourself, you accidentally lost all your dictionaries, info books, etc. But in reality, you literally just hid them because its so boring your telling yourself to hide them and forget about them.
All my old dictionaries and textbooks disapeared years ago
nvm lol
23:36
Hmm I don't seem to encounter that problem
Meh I guess I'll just rewrite ziraks shitty ass code and make it legible and hope he didn't miss anything
Dont get me wrong, I love a good read, but staring at a piece of wood with color on it for hours on end with no interest
I'll give the RO's + You admin access to bot incase anyone abuses
well, it comes to make you go crazy
good deal
@TaylorS well don't read it if you have no interest in it
I'm not asking you to read a dictionary lol
You asked how to learn Python, I gave you an excellent resource
The book teaches you really solid practices and walks you through things from web servers to games
23:38
Ill read the pdf soon, but its 7:30 pm on a monday. I think I need some sleep soon
I haven't read it myself but I bought it for a friend a while back
mhhh ok
Well, if its not a dictionary, i guess it wont be bad
I believe about 4 years ago, I was so bored, we ran out of power and wifi, that I took the United States Constitution (Literally like a 2 inch thick book about the thing) and read a quarter of it
I forgot prettttty much all that i read in about 20 minutes after that
@forresthopkinsa Suggested this to me on discord, but its ancient v4.2.6 rextester.com/l/nodejs_online_compiler
Ancient? Heck I came across that thing recently
oh... nevermind.
thats old.
yikes
does have an API
23:42
I can tap into the unofficial its a simple post request
that could do it
well, I have depleted my 4 hours of programming energy, even though I really didnt do much
I just redesigned my site a little
added some extra scripts, but nothing useful
Im gunna go find a movie to watch or something
if you're just looking for REPLs, just go to repl.it
best one I've used
but can I tap into the api for that? It uses multiple files maybe complicated
23:53
has a console on the right side
bonus is that you can evaluate code from a hundred different langs

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