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12:00 AM
or are they standard?
 
My next objective is to get a bidet
 
it's intimidating at first because of the plumbing involved. but then you do it and it works and you're like. shit.. I could be a plumber :D
 
sup
@idjaw on trend
 
my next major project is finishing the basement. I wanna put in a bar and a bunch of crap.
 
@rlemon or maybe, literally "shit, call the plumber"
 
12:01 AM
I need to get my Jacuzzi fixed. or fix it myself.
 
@rlemon a man cave basically?
 
pump seized.. I think
 
i think it'll be rlemon's 2nd or third man cave
 
@rlemon basement is going to be starting in the fall for me and then going to finish it the summer after
 
there's the shed, the garage...
 
12:02 AM
@taco I'm gonna split it into three parts. a cheers like bar, a workout area, and a indoor garden.
 
My plans for my basement is office and recording for myself with eventual usage to lounge
 
@idjaw good luck. I said that two years ago
 
sounds nice rlemon
 
lol
my basement still has several boxes
 
since then tho I've installed a 1000 gallon pond, a shed, and converted my garage into a workshop
 
12:03 AM
I started going to the gym again this year. I feel so much better
 
basement is still storage
 
@taco I really want to go back.....I know that feeling
@rlemon haha same.
 
I've been avoiding the gym since new years.
 
We should swap basement pictures and see who did it worst
 
been working out at home. I need to go back soon. should be safe
 
12:04 AM
I've been playing hockey a few times a week...but now hockey got cut down, because summer. Need to fill in that space
 
ahahaha
 
from jan1st -> whatever, the gym is a nightmare
 
yes
 
all the new years resolutionists
taking up all my machines..
bastards
 
May is the safe time
 
12:04 AM
I just want to look pretty on the elliptical; is that too much to ask?
 
with the latest GQ?
 
@idjaw only thing I miss is the cable machines.
hard to do a full workout at home with body/free weights.
 
I'm in easy weight loss mode because if I even move a muscle, I'm losing weight. I've been so lazy the past year.
 
once I can built a cable system, I'm done with the gym
 
I just miss the gym escape of blasting my music, working out for a solid hour, feeling great and then passing out
actually I had a really good routine at one point where I was going to the gym before work
it was fantastic!
 
12:06 AM
my routine is pushups before I shower in the morning. then one leg body squats after work. more pushups, curls, chest press, then more pushups.
 
do you guys work from home?
 
if I'm feeling like a fox I run
but eh. running is for chumps :D
@derp I don't
 
@derp I don't work 100% from home....but work is flexible enough that I can. I just don't over do it, because I like working closer to my team
I love running
 
yea, I can work from home. but I don't feel right doing it often.
 
yeah human interaction and all that
 
12:08 AM
I used to run 5K 5/6 days a week just because it was fun
 
and I have a closed door office.
 
@idjaw it was called Musicmatch. Wikipedia told me.
 
so working from 'work' isn't at all an issue
 
We do a lot of pair programming
 
@idjaw yea see, I'd rather do 100 pushups a day and 50 squats.
I've got terrible knees tho
 
12:08 AM
we're the opposite haha
 
man, i need to find myself a new job...work has got me doing manual testing
 
you need automated tests in your life, bro
 
you need a QA team*
 
i agree and i wrote a suite
 
let them test it
 
12:09 AM
Tests? Que?
Do it live, bro
 
unfortunately getting said suite into the their dev pipleine
 
I worked SQA for a number of years.
qualified testers are very important
 
agreed
 
unit tests don't cover everything
 
nope
 
12:10 AM
and having testers on the dev "team" is important too
this place, the devs and the QAs don't even sit with each other
they toss it over the wall and we toss it right back
 
having worked QA I believe 1:1 QA to Dev is probably the best approach. 2:1 is even better
 
its really kind of sad
wow that's high @rlemon
 
for every line of code you write, there are multiple outcomes.
more testing is better.
ofc this is a 'money doesn't matter' attitude
 
100% agree
I was just writing a money comment
 
what do you think of the atlassian approach where you have devs being trained to do QA better
 
12:12 AM
real business you see like a 3:1 dev:qa
 
and because of the money we don't get that at all
in fact a lot of times you don't have QA
you might have a very solid testing framework around you, with a good feedback in your CI
 
then you enter user testing and realize users suck.
 
UAT haha
 
well if you don't test in dev, you test in PROD
xD
 
bam. QA is worth its weight in gold.
 
12:13 AM
why did you do that thing that we were not prepared to do? Use the app how we want you to use it
 
although instead of bug reports, you get people that leave or hack the system
 
@idjaw my first serious software gig was internal apps and SQA for an elearning company
ohh man.. users fucking suck.
think college kids with something to prove.
 
ahahaha
trial by fire
 
Ha, I forgot you did D2L
 
the trend right now is to justify QA replacement with automated tests
 
12:17 AM
Yeah, I've been seeing that more and more
 
product owner says I want this, developers give that with tests, and it gets merged in to master, therefore it is certified fresh -> story closed, move on.
 
I interviewed at a company that axed their entire QA department in favour of TDD
 
yep
very very common
 
that's....unfortunate
 
@ndugger dude. 2003 man.
I was early on
 
12:18 AM
isn't one of the joel test items "do you have dedicated QA?"
 
right now our dev process is
 
@rlemon I was in 6th grade in 2003
 
take story, take TDD approach....BDD maybe....so you should have unit tests, ingeration tests, system tests
send to CI
automated tests in dev, then staging
all is well? -> push to CD to go to prod
done.
 
2003 I was a co-op, then I got hired full time exiting co-op in 2004
but as a co-op I still worked 8 hours a day 😃
 
haha
 
12:19 AM
it was amazing. I got paid for highschool co-op
 
you had co-op in highschool?
 
sounds like child labour lol
 
yup. worth 4 credits
 
damn!
 
but you must have learnt so much
 
12:20 AM
that's awesome
I was serving ice cream
 
i took a class in the morning. then at 9am went to work and worked till 6pm.
got credits, and 40/hr/week pay
 
but god damn did I know how to make a sundae
 
I wasn't allowed to work in high school cuz my parents didn't want me to spend the money on weed
 
i worked in a call centre, that's when i lost faith in humanity
 
I could go for a sundae right jnow
 
12:21 AM
@derp yea, about how much enterprise apps blow, how much I don't want to be an employee number, and how about when free snacks show up in the work room but 'bug blitzes' are becoming more common jump fucking ship.
I was there when there was like 24 other employees. saw the company grow to over 200
it was a eye opener
 
@CapricaSix angular or react
 
React
 
O:
 
yep, my first eye opener was when i learnt that not everyone in IT was a developer
 
12:22 AM
I saw that! @rlemon
guys, never be freelancers
I hate people
 
@BadgerCat why not?
 
people hate people
it's a common theme
 
people are people
 
@derp I'm working for some crazy customer
 
yeah people are always going to be people
 
12:23 AM
@CapricaSix handlebars or pug
 
@Meredith speak for yourself
 
therefore if you can't learn to properly ignore what people do, don't be in the business of having to babysit people
 
I mean.. beep
 
what was that? something happened?
just a beep...OK.
 
@derp I did everything she asked for within her budget and now she doesn't want to pay the agreed hours
 
12:25 AM
sue
 
ugh
 
or cut your losses. and walk away
 
sorry that's happening Badger Cat
 
I've been in that situation before. it sucks like no other.
 
that's frustrating
 
12:25 AM
but unless you're willing to get into a legal battle.. just cut your losses
lesson learned.
 
Luckily my company pays me if the customer doesn't pay
 
yeah. I've had to help a friend out of a bind once, because things got really messy and he was stuck having to deliver something and the contract dev he got, moved on. Luckily it was just a few hours, so I helped out. But he had to cut losses and just get it done to get rid of the client.
 
But it would suck if I were in this alone.
 
now when I freelance, 50% up front of expected hours worked.
 
ouch, my condolences
 
12:26 AM
this stuff would be even pulled off in enterprise consulting type work
client signs SOW for work....start work
 
I don't freelance, I paidlance. Pay me a bunch of money to do things that I want
 
all of a sudden client starts listing all this new stuff
magic words.."I'll start up a new SOW"
answer: oh...it's not critical, that's fine
 
@ndugger I can't understand what makes a man hate another man
Help me understand
 
@Meredith No, I was saying, speak for yourself because I'm not a person
 
I met a roofer who charges for quotes. he said he saw like 30% decline in customers, but almost a 95% closing rate. when you make people pay up front, they see a larger perceived value.
just a thought.
 
12:28 AM
@idjaw creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 <<< you must watch this --- "Fuck you, Pay Me" by Mike Monteiro
 
I'm an advanced AI from the future with downs syndrome
 
Apparently advanced AIs from the future with downs syndrome haven't heard of depeche mode
 
@ndugger so like Marvin, the Paranoid Android?
 
no, I have not
 
do they have access to the source code? @BadgerCat
or is it pending payment?
 
12:29 AM
Yeah
But it's all good, she's fighting only one hour.
 
@taco oh this should be good. Thanks for the share.
 
Out of 54
 
wat
 
Ikr!
 
12:29 AM
seriously.. up front payments. even if this situation doesn't 100% qualify.. they're a good idea
perceived value is huge.
 
also, paying up front filters out the problem customers. You will get more serious customers who really want to get something done.
 
not the full amount ofc.
 
Granted, it decreases, but does not remove. So yeah.
yeah
 
but an installment. it's a good idea
 
I don't know how my company does it, but they have lots of legal things that the customer signs before agreeing to take them as customers.
 
12:31 AM
@idjaw the case study I'm referring to he saw 30% less customers.. but his closing turned from like 50% to 95%
he made much more money that year.
 
@Meredith the effects of that video are hurting my brain
 
overall, ++
 
So I will get paid no matter what.
 
like, the shattered image
or something
 
@ndugger The 80s were a simpler time
 
12:31 AM
it doesn't help that I've had some girl scouts cookies
 
No one cared about epilepsy back then
 
I'm just complaining about her e-mails.
 
she sounds like a right bitch
 
eh some people just want to have a whinge
 
deliverable only on your server. previews as images.
until they pay ofc.
 
12:33 AM
@idjaw "Fuck You Pay Me" is a must for freelancers in our arena, IMO. Plus it's hilarious
 
how I'd do it ^^
 
She's a bit unstable, sometimes she's really sweet to me and the next day she's sending a furious e-mail.
 
@BadgerCat watch that video too!
 
@BadgerCat ask your boss ofc. then reply to all mean email with lulcats images
then claim someone 'hacked' your social media
everything is cleared.
win/win
 
Today my company sent her my quote, and she said "How about we meet middle ground on the hours and I pay X"
 
12:34 AM
@BadgerCat 'sure, at another company. this is our quote'
 
yeah :P
 
they need your services, you don't need their money.
always should be at the front of your mind ^
 
it's true.
 
Yeah, people think they can bully me into charging less for my work.
 
very true.
you're just a developer
you don't know business
that's another part of the debate some people take.
but more so...people want a deal and want to know they strong armed and worked out something no one else could.
 
12:36 AM
we're not a commodity. we're a competitive industry with a real need. you pay for quality.
otherwise you get burned.
 
But no, I'm really good at what I do, they should pay me what I'm worth.
 
contractors who are good are a not a dime a dozen.
 
And some people don't care about that. They want to know they are getting a deal.
This is why I hate car shopping and the mentality that comes with it.
 
and they are not the customers we want
 
I hate negotiating.
 
12:37 AM
well a car is a commodity
a developer isn't because we're all unique
 
tell them to go to wix.com or w/e
they want the bottom dollar
not my idea of a business
and even if you do convince them to work with you, it will be nothing but trouble.
choose your clients like they choose a company.
 
Yeah. I'm happy that I have my company to do all the hard work, picking only good customers and always making sure they pay.
Plus they sponsor my talks.
 
my #1 advice when dealing with these people is to remember you're financially independent.
you don't need their business.
 
The Webhosting industry was the same. You'd get people trying to sell to the bottom feeders, some quality mid-level hosts, and then enterprise hosts. I think the custom hosting quote was maybe the most lucrative (I don't have numbers to back it up) and had less needy customers who were willing to pay
 
they need your service.
 
12:39 AM
exactly
I had to work with their current developer, who makes potato websites.
 
@derp you actually hit on a problem
you see it like that
No one else does who is looking to buy your time
 
i also hate being called a resource
 
I saw people making money in all of those niches. The ones who paid the least were the absolute noisiest
 
this is exactly how I see tech recruiters right now
 
I wish I could make websites out of potatoes
 
12:40 AM
you are a commodity to be made commission off of
 
i remember reading a blog saying "you call me a resource, i'm going to call you an overhead"
 
@ndugger DO IT
 
@ndugger DO IT
 
@ndugger DO IT
 
oh man @idjaw, i just dealt with a recruiter who's basis of hiring was "how many years experience do you have with X"
 
12:41 AM
I get recruiters who send me emails with my name misspelled. It's pretty funny.
 
@derp you are a resource, but you are not a commodity needing 'trade'
you are a skilled trade. like any other.
people need you, you don't need them
 
ahahhaa
 
Even the Benevolent Dictator For Life gets these e-mails from recruiters.
 
negotiations are much easier when you're looking at it as "I'm doing you a favour, not the other way around"
 
12:43 AM
yep, i don't think highly of most tech recruiters
there are exceptions though
 
@BadgerCat that's incredible.
 
even HR people. you're going to make them money. they arn't making a skilled dev anything.
you make your own money.
 
@idjaw hahaha
 
so, Guido...on a scale of 1 to 10...what would you say your knowledge in Python is? The company in question needs someone pretty advanced.
 
Good advice all around.
 
12:44 AM
How many years of Python experience do you have?
-All of them
 
as far as python goes, I use it when node won't suffice.
 
we need 5 years React experince
 
i.e when I need to overcome hardware issues
otherwise. node life
 
amen
 
@BadgerCat lol
 
12:45 AM
@rlemon whats your favorite way to store data (eg mysql/nosql)?
 
postgresql
 
express + passport?
 
if I need auth. yes
express + passport + pg
 
even if the data is key/value store?
you'll stick with postgres?
 
yup
 
12:47 AM
interesting
 
they have a 'nosql' option.
 
Is express still solid? I haven't done any server-side coding in awhile.
 
depends on the usage of the key/value store
 
also iirc they have an in-memory option.... but dont' quote me on that
I've never used it if it exists.
 
express is the goto in node
 
12:47 AM
Yeah express is still a thing
Idk if the alternatives have died out yet or not
 
key/value could be long term document storage, or fast local session data storage
 
would you not go with mongo for key/value?
 
postgres meets all my needs for my limited user base.
 
No.
 
we considered sqlite.
but the locking issues were not worth is
 
12:48 AM
a lot of my python stuff will use sqlite
 
People underrate sqlite
 
I have one project using redis
 
sqlite is super powerful.. with limitations.
 
but that is because I needed to do some distributed locking shenanigans
 
I use redis and postgres. Postgres for the persistent data (some relational, some JSON blobs), and redis for sessions storage, some pub/sub, processing queues.
 
12:51 AM
yeah so recently mongo is being used for the session storage stuff
and leveraging the in-memory it offers
 
I gave up on mongo due to missing atomic transactions.
 
what is it about mongo that gets it a lot of hate
 
right now I use mongo for a single website, mysql for another app, then postgres.
mysql is a hardware thing. couldn't get postgres to build. :(
mongo was to say I used it
 
When you are used to proper databases like MSQL, postgres and even, ugh, MySQL, then the lack of basic all-or-nothing updates in mongo is a deal breaker.
 
oh ok
 
12:53 AM
Any benefit it might have gained by that, like being able to scale up to many servers (supposedly) is lost on me.
 
But for the usage of simply a key/value store because of exactly that feature with no extra bells and whistles
is it OK?
it's just that, when it comes to my use-case for key/value, I never had an advanced use case that I didn't end up caring what I used, because it worked fine.
 
I've not had issues with mongo on a simple document store.
very simple
like, so simple I could have easily done it with a flat file and probably would have been easier.
 
Well, my battery has officially lost half its oomf
it used to give me a good 11-12
I'm at 5.5 about and 17% left
which also means, I've been working for a long time....
 
ouch.
well, now you know the JS room isn't scary. you'll be back :D
 
definitely :)
 
12:56 AM
I was thinking of writing a tiny server app that I can sent server status notifications (when we are deploying or there is a known issue). All it would do is store a queue of messages. Add new messages from authorized sources. And return the message Q to unauthorized GET.
 
On that note. Have a great night all.
Gonna pack up here.
 
yea, enjoy your night. o/
 
It's not scary at the moment.
 
@Luggage shhh. he wasn't here for the darkness
 
@idjaw sarahmei.com/blog/2013/11/11/why-you-should-never-use-mongodb and yeah I've used MongoDB for a small site. I'm using CouchDB now, too.
 
12:57 AM
@taco ah nice...reading material for later. thanks
Can't wait for the darkness.
 
My old friend.
 
JavaScript is a community of bullies if you believe in the hype
 
alright..for realz now. later.
@Luggage lol
just like Python. We are all nuts
 
otherwise. we're just a bunch of people who used JS 10 years ago and have PTSD
 
triggered by the symbol that can't be mentioned
 
12:58 AM
 
@rlemon My opinion is the Javascript is way more agile than most communities. They can iterate (and do). And sometimes they iterate way too fast for me
 
it is hard to keep up
I don't personally get the 'bully' mentality
I think that is true for all languages
 
I don't get the bully mentality out of any community I've interacted with
 
every sector has elitists.
 
yep
 

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