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09:00
Good point :D
SO does have some kind of deal with imgur, for example
I'm not familiar with the details
but it includes link rot prevention stuffs
Ooo
@Cerbrus that is completely untrue. The owner of fiddle himself offered to help SE integrate with them.
What is "that" in this case?
6 mins ago, by Cerbrus
Not going to happen, fiddle is an resource SO doesn't have any influence in
09:04
SO doesn't own or pay fiddle
--> No ground to stand on
133
A: Custom jsFiddle for Stack Overflow

zalunjsFiddle is my project. Is there anything what could be done to make jsFiddle work better with Stack Overflow?

!!\s\ground\legal ground\
@Cerbrus That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.
hmm, not exactly that, but still...
If fiddle goes down, for whatever reason, SO can't do shit
Also:
> jsFiddle are not responsible or liable for any loss or damage of any kind during the usage of provided code.
09:09
jsfiddle is hosted by digital ocean.... I thought DO had the best uptime in the market
Is now
I bet that's more recent
nailed it.
too bad that not using this altogether, while producing nicer code, makes JS rather awfully limited
this = javascript... Douglas Crockford stopped using javascript.
@AwalGarg well that might one way to read it yes.
@AwalGarg however your statement is obviously wrong
In favour of what
09:19
PHP ofcourse
@AwalGarg stop using swear words!
no seriously we've been over this before
over what?
@BartekBanachewicz hi banani
Douglas Crockford: Did you hear about that broadway play in York?
Person: You mean *New* York?
Douglas Crockford: Yeah, York. Why what did I say?
nice languages --------- js ---------------------------------- nothing ------ a pile of shit --------------------------- a lot of nothing --------------still going --------------- yeah still going ------------ PHP
09:20
@BartekBanachewicz where do you place Java?
@JanDvorak I'd need to fetch my chart
Blegh php
@JanDvorak "a lot of nothing"
Okay, according to it, I've rated Java at 0% and JS at -20%
so I'd say somewhere at the very end of "nice languages"
but... it's very verbose
09:22
yeah, I know. The scale goes from 100% to -100% :P
I bet English must be somewhere at -80000%
Where is Haskell?
ask hell
100%, duh.
One might say that Java is in the middle of a scale going from Haskell to PHP
09:23
wanted to make sure :-)
I guess Ruby is near Javascript?
python?
I've posted the full chart here
here's just my row
@JanDvorak hm I should prolly move Rubby to -30%
eh, I'll wait and simply do a new poll in a few months
C++ at -60? Because of its type syntax, the lack of memory protections, or because the template system can make stuff really unreadable?
neither of those
lol Lua
09:28
Lisp is surprisingly high IMO
also I've no idea what you mean by "lack of memory protections"
C++ is a POS
@AwalGarg as a PHP user you shouldn't really speak up in language discussions.
3
@BartekBanachewicz lol +1
@BartekBanachewicz is it "your opinion on such and such language"?
09:29
@FlorianMargaine the chart was titled "language awesomeness", and people responded really freely
so yeah, it's mostly personal opinions, feelings, usefulness, whatever
btw, putting lisp at such a high place and java in the middle, you should stop bieng a critic :D
why is lisp not at 150%?
@AwalGarg now why would that be? Lisp is way better than Java
09:30
@BartekBanachewicz dereferencing uninitialised pointers, lack of memory protections in native arrays (I don't mean STD containers), lack of native garbage collection (and STD is verbose)...
@FlorianMargaine kinda low-level IMO
@JanDvorak seriously, you speak like someone who either writes bad C++ or doesn't write C++ at all
It's the latter
also if by stdlib verbosity you mean lacking range support then I agree
@BartekBanachewicz I unno... The only 4 languages I know are PHP, C++, JS and Lua... and I have almost completely forgot everything about lua and c++...
09:31
tactical message.
he doesn't know php either, you know...
@BartekBanachewicz right, I know that old Turbo c++, that too very basic
@FlorianMargaine eh?
@AwalGarg that's not C++.
09:32
@BartekBanachewicz std::dyn_ptr<std::vector<int>> is kinda verbose
@JanDvorak why would you use that? std::vector already manages memory dynamically
std::vector<int> is enough.
@BartekBanachewicz MY SCHOOL SAID IT IS C++. YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEM?
:d
@AwalGarg your school sucks then.
@BartekBanachewicz hmm... buffer swapping?
@BartekBanachewicz indeed. every school in my country sucks.
09:34
!!s/ e.*in//
@JanDvorak @BartekBanachewicz indeed. my country sucks. (source)
I should have joined this place 2 years earlier.
@JanDvorak std::swap won't copy vector data.
@JanDvorak Ooooh, burn!
@JanDvorak lol true dat
09:35
@BartekBanachewicz Then why is C++ so low on your chart?
@AwalGarg You're not supposed to agree with it. That takes all the fun out of it.
@Neil but... I do agree
@JanDvorak The leftovers from C are dragging it down. Lack of concepts is making writing template functions hellishly annoying. Lack of modules means that setting up any reasonable build chain is awfully hard and error prone.
There's no shell to easily test stuff, IDEs and tooling sucks
Builds take hours
true...
!!xkcd code compiling
Lisp has about the only decent macro system
so it's the most common implementations that you're complaining about, not the language itself
Morning Folks
...do you guys know like every programming language in detail?
@FlorianMargaine True. But it all contributes to the overall experience.
@AwalGarg Nah, that's way too much knowledge. But I know basics of most of the mainstream ones.
09:38
in Haskell you can load a full program in GHCi and inspect any top-level identifier
@AwalGarg I've written (at least) a couple thousands of lines of code in many of these languages, yes
@SomeGuy atleast tell me that you don't
I don't
I heard lisp is a great programming language, but I did not come across its applications written on it
\o/
@SomeGuy dat was quick btw... :P
09:39
@udaysagar look on github.com/Ralt I have a couple of them
@udaysagar it's a programmable programming language. It's a swiss knife to make swiss knives.
@AwalGarg TWSS too
@udaysagar AutoCAD
@FlorianMargaine any main applications built on it
@BartekBanachewicz is it? That's great!
what do you call "main application"
09:40
it uses it vOv
don't know how much, but in general Lisp is used, though it's not hyped like dunno Ruby
I like Ruby
The only practical way I have used lua is in integration with conky
@JanDvorak I dislike the fact that its idioms are very personal
@FlorianMargaine are your from france
It's been over 2 years... lol
09:41
I've only used lua in Manufactoid
@BartekBanachewicz as in, everyone has a different coding style?
It is probable the only language where -- would start a comment lol
@AwalGarg look at Haskell
@AwalGarg also, look at SQL
look at python
python uses #
@JanDvorak If I listen to you, my whole life would be spent on learning new languages only lol
@JanDvorak ahh right!
09:43
yea, and i like its indentation way of avoiding braces
@udaysagar it kinda messes up if your editor loves tabs
and these days I am seeing google backing it up a lot
@udaysagar meh, it still uses parens for function application
$ or bust.
I don't like that way of indentation. I like braces.
braces are noise most of the time.
09:44
noise or nice?
your code is structured with whitespaces anyway. If it's not, you're terrible.
@BartekBanachewicz they enable automatic prettification
@udaysagar noise. They pop up but bring no real information to the programmer
@JanDvorak so do prettifiers that actually understand code
altough in python it might get weird at times
I agree, but in one case, they serve in understanding the code intuitively
so do whitespaces
specifically
09:46
whitespaces for a single line, how about new lines?
@BartekBanachewicz I can select a block and press tab a few times, or I can write messy code and throw a bit of computer magic into the mix... You're right. You shouldn't need to prettify your own code.
function foo()
{
x();
while(true)
{
y();
}
}

is less readable than

function foo()
    x()
    while true:
        y()
especially when you get into more levels of nesting
do the same with nested loops
function foo() {
    x();
    y();
}

is more readable than

function foo()
    x()
    y()
@AwalGarg not really
09:48
@AwalGarg disagree
also look up, I've edited my example
indentation is everything. Braces are just additions.
Maybe it is more readable to me because I am more used to braces. I haven't worked much with that indentation type of code.
I never use braces in Haskell.
@BartekBanachewicz todays' all modern editors do that indentation for us, so both examples will be same except the curly braces
@JanDvorak yeah, me neither. I've been reusing some code that used them and it was terribad
@BartekBanachewicz this is not a fair comparison. You aren't indenting the first block properly.
09:50
@udaysagar my point is that braces aren't important for people to see the structure of the code nearly as much as indentation is
Guys, is that our choice to use em or not?
haskell: foo = x >> y -- assuming x, y are IO actions
foo = do
    x
    y
still ok.
too verbose for just two actions
altough with such short names >> makes it nice alright
@AwalGarg I was trying to compare just indentation to just braces.
09:51
body.success.should.be.false;
body.error.should.containEql('required');
body.item.should.be.empty;
I love BDD
you can see that braces really don't help anythinga
@BartekBanachewicz lol, I meant to say braces complement whitespace.
@SecondRikudo Doesn't.your.internal.voice.stutter.when.you're.reading.this?
@AwalGarg adding indentation is what's making code readable. OTOH, you can remove the braces from indented code and it's still perfectly readable.
@JanDvorak It does XD
It takes like half a second break between each word
09:52
@BartekBanachewicz as you say :)
@BartekBanachewicz By braces you mean curly braces?
@SecondRikudo { }
btw, I started using (and enjoying) express.js without fully understanding node (I actually started express the first day with node)... Is that bad? Should I avoid express now?
@BartekBanachewicz Never omit those.
Never ever.
@SecondRikudo why would I do that? I never write them if I don't have to.
09:54
@SecondRikudo He isn't talking about JS
@BartekBanachewicz It's a source for errors in teams.
This isn't about if conditionals where you could omit those
@SomeGuy The principle still stands in PHP and even in C
that said, I avoid them in JS or PHP sometimes.
He's talking about their merits in a language
09:54
@SecondRikudo are you talking about a particular language?
@SecondRikudo and Bartek is talking about Haskell
@SecondRikudo yes, probably in PHP and in C it makes sense.
which you don't know anything about afaik :P
Oh, their general merit in languages
I also always use them in JS
09:55
Yeah, I'd take indentation over brackets in those cases.
@FlorianMargaine Why would you do that?
@SecondRikudo so your "never omit them" was a bit of overstatement :P
@SecondRikudo simpler
@SecondRikudo less noise
09:55
@BartekBanachewicz In languages that support them.
if (!validate(stuff)) return false;
@SecondRikudo Haskell supports braces.
but you don't have to write them.
@FlorianMargaine if (!validate(stuff)) { return false; }
yeah, that's ugly.
yeah, that's noise.
09:56
Yeah, that's less confusion.
@SecondRikudo no, florian's was better
there's no confusion
code should be clean
When programming alone, without braces might be better
where is the confusion?
Not when working with a team.
09:56
That's why I absolutely despise $ in PHP
@SecondRikudo I disagree.
@SecondRikudo the team is made of programmers, right?
@AwalGarg Of various levels, yes.
@SecondRikudo why not if (!validate(stuff)) { return (false); } then?
oh wait
if (!(validate(stuff))) { return (false); }
yeah, now it's better.
return false unless validate stuff
^ruby
@BartekBanachewicz Because it's pointless in that case.
09:58
@SecondRikudo so are your braces
@JanDvorak haha nice
if, unless, while, until. I love modifiers
@JanDvorak that looks ok. Does ruby allow calling all functions like that?
@BartekBanachewicz yes
altough I think return false `unless` validate stuff makes it clear what unless is
09:59
TBH in that case I'd just return validate(stuff); yeah?
@SecondRikudo uh no?
that means something entirely different

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